It's ok, I can still use mine as 2 position safety. Had some SxS smoothbores both in SLE and BLE persuasion with intercepting sear, so 2 position safety can be VERY SAFE.
The Model 70 was a very successful design, but I feel it is somewhat over-rated considering what's available.
I prefer Ruger bolt guns to Winchesters. They have more classy iron sights and better scope mounting setup, and some consider CZ setup even better.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

The mkII as well as the newer Hawkeye absolutely locks the firing pin.

Somebody is confused...

I don't know about the Hawkeye, but I do have experience with a Ruger 77 MkII. In fact, I just pulled mine out of the (locked) closet and checked it again. This safety does not lock the firing pin -- it doesn't have anything to do with the firing pin. It locks the trigger.

Compare it to a Model 70 safety. On the Model 70, the safety is attached to the bolt itself. So when you open the bolt and pull it back, the safety rides with the bolt. On the Ruger MKII, the safety stays with the action as the bolt is opened and pulled back.

Put the MK II safety in the middle position, and then try to pull the trigger. You will find that the trigger is blocked (as it is in the full safety position, when the bolt is also locked closed.) It does not block the firing pin.

On the Model 70, the safety does not have anything to do with the trigger as such. Instead, in the middle (2nd) and full safe (3rd) position, the Model 70 safety operates on the firing pin by blocking its movement and releasing the spring pressure on it -- the Model 70 safety controls the firing pin.
The Ruger 77 MK II safety controls the trigger.

As to the (relative) ease of moving the two different safeties or the positiveness of the detents of the safety positions on the two different rifles, you may indeed be correct about that. I do not consider that to be a point of much significance, although here too, given my druthers, I'll take the one on the Model 70.

LE270,

With the mkII safety selector in “SAFE†(full rearward) position #1. The safety selector is fully nested
into a .250" wide groove in the cocking piece. When the safety selector is in this position, the firing pin is fully locked at the cocking piece behind the bolt shroud. This is hell for stout and is safe.

I like this over the M70 becase the safety itself is nested into the cocking piece. Without breaking my grip I can easily brush my thumb across the face of the cocking piece and feel that the rifle is cocked and that the safety is fully engaged into position #1. The M70 safety does not touch the cocking piece and sticks out to the side. You now must swipe your thumb across two separate surfaces which is not a big deal but the safety is so easy to operate that it doesn't take much of any impact to kick it off position #1 so that it flips over position #2 and clunks straight to position #3 "Fire".

As far as your description of your preference for the M70 safety in position #2 to give you peace of mind when using live and untested handloads to check seating depth for the rifle while in your basement. That is reckless. Expect the rifle to go off and treat it accordingly. If it did go off and the bullet skipped around your basement killing a loved one, or it went through the wall and killed your neighbor, you would be guilty of great negligence and would probably face criminal charges. A prosecutor would destroy you just by reading the rules from your owners manual. Examples of safety rules you violate are:

“LOAD-UNLOAD,†and “FIRE.†Never depend on a
safety mechanism or any other mechanical device to
justify careless handling or permitting the rifle to
point in an unsafe direction. The only “safe†rifle is
one in which the bolt is open and the chamber and
magazine are empty.
KNOW HOW TO USE THE SAFETY

1. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
BE SURE WHAT YOU LOAD IS CORRECT

1. LEARN THE MECHANICAL AND HANDLING
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE FIREARM YOU ARE USING.
Not all firearms are the same.

2. ALWAYS KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A
SAFE DIRECTION.
Be sure of the bullet stop behind your
target, even when dry-firing.

3. FIREARMS SHOULD BE UNLOADED WHEN NOT IN
USE.
Firearms should be loaded only
when you are in the field or on the
target range or shooting area,
ready to shoot.


5. BE SURE OF YOUR
TARGET BEFORE YOU
SHOOT.
Don’t shoot unless you know
exactly where your bullet is going
to strike. Be sure of the bullet
stop behind your target, even
when dry-firing with an unloaded
gun.

8. DON T SHOOT AT A
HARD SURFACE, OR AT
WATER.
Bullets can glance off many
surfaces like rocks or the surface
of water and travel in
unpredictable directions with
considerable velocity.

Use equipment as the manufacturer intended and do not take shortcuts – John Wooter

· To find the seating depth, make a dummy round (no primer or powder) and use a marker or grease pencil to color the bullet. Chamber the round and adjust seating depth until you see that the bullet is contacting the rifling. Then adjust the seating die to seat a bit deeper and tighten the lock ring.


To remove and replace the firing pin in your mkII:

To remove firing pin assembly from bolt: With bolt out of the rifle and firing
pin cocked, insert a pin or nail into the “disassembly hole†in the cocking
piece.

To reassemble firing pin assembly into bolt:
Screw the assembly fully into the bolt. The assembly is properly positioned in
the bolt when the flat on the bottom right side of the bolt sleeve (front of bolt
facing you) is aligned with the flat on the bottom end of the bolt handle. Note:
There is a shallow notch on the rear end of the bolt body – at the end of the
cam cut – into which the nose of the cocking piece ‘fits.’ When the firing pin
assembly is being turned into the bolt body, it may be necessary to use the
restraining pin as a lever to slightly retract the cocking piece nose so it can be
moved into the notch. When the firing pin assembly is correctly positioned in
the bolt body, the restraining pin can be removed, but not before!

I'll stick w/ my original observation that the first safety to fail is the one between the ears of the nut behind the butt.

Best of Luck,
GVA

I like a safety on the tang.. on a rifle or a double shotgun. To me the safety of a gun is in the user rather than the safety. I've built dozens of custom rifles on the ruger 77 tang safety models. I've also worked on them for many years and have never heard of an accidental discharge with one (doesn't mean there heven't been ).
I just finished a 375/338 on a tang safety action for a client going to Africa. The safety is where it needs to be, to be taken off with the thumb, (in it's natural position) as the rifle is coming to the shoulder.
On the other hand, I get reports weekly on rem 700 AD's from my customers.
Just my $.02 It all depends on what you like and works for you. I find safeties on the bolt to be inconveniently located for my style of shooting. They are safe though, that's for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

With the mkII safety selector in “SAFE†(full rearward) position #1. The safety selector is fully nested into a .250" wide groove in the cocking piece. When the safety selector is in this position, the firing pin is fully locked at the cocking piece behind the bolt shroud.

Yes, you are correct about that.

I had seen pictures of Ruger 77 MK II rifles and had read its safety described as a 3-position one before I ever actually saw or handled one of the rifles themselves. So I assumed that it would be a Model 70 type safety. But when I actually picked one up in the gun store I was very disappointed to find that it is not a Model 70 type safety at all. But I bought the rifle anyway because it is a 7x57 and I like that caliber, and because I got it at a substantial markdown because there was a slight blemish in the stock.

I also have several Remington 700s -- one of them from the earlier era when the safety locked the bolt closed and others from the more recent era when it does not do so. I prefer the more recent ones in which the safety does not lock the bolt closed.

I have Ruger and Remington rifles and a Savage one for other reasons, but I still think the Model 70 safety is the best ever designed for a bolt action rifle.

As for trying a loaded round in a rifle in my basement in order to check seating depth -- yes, doing so makes me nervous. I never do it with anyone else in the basement and I always do it with the rifle pointed at a cement or masonry basement wall.

I think I'll take the advice given here and do it with dummy rounds from now on.

That said, the Model 70 safety is still hands-down much better in terms of its inherent safety than any other safety made.

To use an analogy: The strongest and safest parking lock on your car is to have an automatic transmission and put it in PARK position. Could it fail? Yes. Is it as likely to fail or as prone to failure as a parked car with its transmission in neutral and the parking brake on? Definitely not.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

As far as your description of your preference for the M70 safety in position #2 to give you peace of mind when using live and untested handloads to check seating depth for the rifle while in your basement. That is reckless.

I've been thinking about this again.

Is it any more reckless than the practice of those people who keep loaded handguns or long guns in their homes for protection? It seems to me that what I've done is less reckless than that -- which is not to say that it's necessarily a good practice. (I don't own handguns and I never keep a loaded gun in the house.)

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

I like a safety on the tang.. on a rifle or a double shotgun. ... I've built dozens of custom rifles on the ruger 77 tang safety models. I've also worked on them for many years and have never heard of an accidental discharge with one (doesn't mean there haven't been.

I have one of those too, an older Model 77 in .257 Roberts. I agree that this safety is extremely convenient.

If you remove the stock from the action on this rifle (tang safety Model 77) you must be sure to get everything reassembled properly or the safety linkage will bind against the stock and it will not work.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

As for putting rounds through an action at home, I don't know about all bolts, but my M70 for instance, put safety in mid position, remove bolt, unscrew fireing pin and remove.

Yes, that's correct.

I don't know of any other bolt action rifle that this can be done with. And it's a function of the way the bolt/firing pin/safety assembly of the Model 70 is made.

Im 100% sure you can do the same with M98, you know,the design from which m70 is loosely based on.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

With the mkII safety selector in “SAFE†(full rearward) position #1. The safety selector is fully nested into a .250" wide groove in the cocking piece. When the safety selector is in this position, the firing pin is fully locked at the cocking piece behind the bolt shroud.

Yes, you are correct about that.

Just for reference:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-Hawkeye375/MVC-514F.jpg

GVA

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
Is it any more reckless than the practice of those people who keep loaded handguns or long guns in their homes for protection?

Huh??????????

That has got to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever read.

Many handgun owners and CHL holders are very responsible and know their weapons; the first commandment is muzzle control.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
(I don't own handguns and I never keep a loaded gun in the house.)

Oh I see now why you said that. That statement was truly said out of ignorance. If you don't own one, you shouldn't make comments like that....

"it is better to be thought of as a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it......" (sic) Abe lincoln.

FMC, that post is way too harsh. It's ok to point out someone's error, but you don't need to assasinate their character. You called the guy a fool! If you were in a bar, you could expect a punch in the nose, and most would say you deserved it.

It's just uncalled for to treat people that way. Civility should be demanded online as well as everywhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

Many handgun owners and CHL holders are very responsible and know their weapons; the first commandment is muzzle control.

Maybe so. I'm sure that at least some people who keep loaded guns in their homes are very responsible.

But the assumption was made that I do not practice muzzle control when I try handloaded rounds in a rifle in order to ascertain that the bullet on the loaded round is seated properly for my particular rifle.

I think that the muzzle control that I practice in doing that is at least as good as the muzzle control practiced by people who keep loaded guns in their homes. Moreover the gun never leaves my hands, and it is never placed in a circumstance where someone else could get his/her hands on it.

I doubt that many people who keep loaded guns in their homes could say honestly that none of those guns is ever placed in a circumstance where no one but the owner could ever get his/her hands on it. Moreover, how can the owner practice complete or total muzzle control if the gun is not in the owner's hands, or locked away so that no one else can get his/her hands on it?

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
It's easy to blame the people rather than the safety. But, one of the main purposes of a safety is to overcome human error, human stupidity, and momentary lapses of judgement.

You can sneer at the people that had accidents all you want, but had they had a safety that allowed unloading without taking the safety off, those accidents probably wouldn't have happened.

I would also say that it is easy to look down your nose at someone who has had an accident (as people did with Chaney), but if you handle guns long enough, your chances of having your own accident get pretty high. When you think you are immune from accident, that is when you are most likely to have one.

The safety that most likely prevents that from happening is the best safety. And that would be the 3 position.

Well heck yes you blame it on the people. Even if the rifle you were carrying didn't have a safety if you don't point it at anyone you won't kill no one simple as that. Don't point the stupid thing at anyone and you won't kill them PERIOD.
I don't care if you've got a 6 position safety don't point it at anyone when you are handling it, hunting with it, unloading it or whatever, never point it at anyone EVER.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
FMC, that post is way too harsh. It's ok to point out someone's error, but you don't need to assasinate their character. You called the guy a fool! If you were in a bar, you could expect a punch in the nose, and most would say you deserved it.

It's just uncalled for to treat people that way. Civility should be demanded online as well as everywhere else.

As a person with a CHL, with loaded weapons in my house, and who has taken several defensive handgun courses I took those comments very personally. I found that comment to be "Zumbo-esque" and frankly anti, although I do not believe that to have been the intention at all. It frankly chapped my ass.

I actually chose my words carefully, after counting back from 20..........

Frankly there is nothing wrong with being ignorant, we can not all be omniscient and all knowing.
As a short white man, I now absolutely nothing about basketball and have no interest in the sport- I am truly ignorant. Yet if I were to spout off and make a flip comment about the thugs involved......never mind bad example

On a serious note, I am a big boy and am not a (politically correct) pansie, who gets flustered because of what was said on an internet forum. And if I get my nose bloodied so be it, but I'll shake your hand later and buy you a beer, I don't hold grudges.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

Maybe so. I'm sure that at least some people who keep loaded guns in their homes are very responsible.

But the assumption was made that I do not practice muzzle control when I try handloaded rounds in a rifle in order to ascertain that the bullet on the loaded round is seated properly for my particular rifle.

I think that the muzzle control that I practice in doing that is at least as good as the muzzle control practiced by people who keep loaded guns in their homes. Moreover the gun never leaves my hands, and it is never placed in a circumstance where someone else could get his/her hands on it.

Agreed. Frankly I'd like to think that those "responsible" enough to keep a loaded handgun would use the same procedures. I know I do.

I do disagree though with your using a dummy round. The whole point of checking your ammo is to make sure your ammo feeds and seats appropriately.

As far as the original question, I like the "third" option on the safety. The push button on the bottom of a Mod 70 is it's only weak point IMHO. A real goddamn pain in the ass when you're in Canada and have to keep on loading/emptying your magazine

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
am not a (politically correct) pansie, who gets flustered because of what was said on an internet forum.

FMC,
Sounded to me that's just what you did get, or at least went off half cocked.

GaryVA said something about being irresponsible, about using live rounds to check
SEATING DEPTH. Well, whatever -- it's NOT necesssary because one can best use dummies.
NO ONE was talking about running live rounds thru the action to check for feeding etc., but dummies can still be used, if your confident of your reloading abilities.
Plus it was pointed out, regardless of how handy the M70 safety was, it is NOT necessary to have the fireing pin in the bolt while trying live rounds.

And, I think it was quite normal and correct for LE270 to compare his loaded rifle to anyone elses loaded guns in their house. He never said YOU were irresponsible, and neither was he, he thought.
And yes, I've had loaded pistols, shotguns, and rifles, in banks houses cars bars camps you name it.



[/QUOTE]

button on the bottom of a Mod 70 is it's only weak point IMHO. A real goddamn pain in the ass when you're in Canada and have to keep on loading/emptying your magazine[/QUOTE]


Seeing as you don't hold a grudge, what are you on about here? Why do you keep loading and unloading your M70 in Canada? (Maybe I can help you out here with a few tips.)

LE270,

I came back over to edit my post for grammer and found this thread going way off base. I'd like to make a few points.

I read posts of others which gives me an idea of where some are coming from, but, some I can't figure out. It may be different cultures and backgrounds, I don't know. But, I'll tell you a bit about myself. I am a trained professional who uses and handles firearms on a daily basis. I've lost count how many advanced schools I've been through. I've lost count how many I've coached and trained. In addition to this, I've competed on a National level and have trained w/ some of the best. I've handloaded as much as anyone. I have loaded as many as 8,000 long range match rounds for one rifle in one season. This was in addition to the other cartridges I was handloading at that time.

Now to the safety issue(s). I read some of your posts and they come across as if you're justifying some of your actions that you admit are unsafe. I read some of the posted replies that come across as suporting your justifications. Rules of firearm safety are well established and are extremely clear. These rules are not just standardized verbage without meaning. These rules have been established based on sound reasoning and are supported by facts.

As part of my job and as part of my life experiences I've seen the aftermath of reckless disregard of these basic rules. I've stood over a five year old boy who was dead on the floor of his home w/ the remains of his brains in the bed of a Tonka Toy dump truck next to his body. Just a short while earlier he was so excited to play with his brand new truck. He was beside himself with joy while rolling this truck around the hallway floor. At the same time an adult loved one was also beside himself with joy in a different room of the house playing with his brand new firearm. He was having so much fun that he decided to chamber a live round to see how smooth it cycled through the action. It went off! He didn't expect it to go off because the safety was engaged. He wasn't pointing at anyone because he was alone in the room. He didn't realize how far that bullet could go and what it could do inside a structure. Of the many uninteded and unsafe directions that bullet flew, one was to pass through the skull and brain of this child.

I can recount several such horrific tragedies I've Monday morning quarterbacked. All were the results of negligence and disregard of these safety rules. None were the results of a defective product or broken mechanical safety.

Now back to LE270. Whenever you chamber a live round into a firearm, be prepared for it to go off and be fully aware of the direction that bullet will take. If it would be unsafe for you to discharge that round into your hard basement wall then it would be unsafe to point at that wall when cylcing the round. Also, there is a huge difference between safely carying a loaded firearm within a structure verses unsafely cycling a firearm within the same structure. I personally use a load box that can safely handle a bullet discharge. Others may not be able to afford this. But, there are many safe ways one can use to charge and/or unload a firearm.

If you safely get beyond that hurdle, you are still living dangerously by chambering a live bullet w/ an untested seating depth. This could be catastrophic if the bullet went fully into the rifling and the round went off. Older rifles were soft steel w/ a hard outer shell. Good ones were engineered to prevent this venting and the bolt from traveling straight back. The soft steel would give and limit the containment of this pressure reducing the explosion somewhat. Modern steel/alloys used in rifles are extremely hard throughout to contain modern high pressure cartridges. The tiny vents they put in these rifles in no way can release all the pressure built by such cartridge in the event your test bullet becomes an obstruction. Your rifle is now a pipe bomb!

Do not take shortcuts on these safety issues just to be convenient. Be prepared for that round to go off. If you safely handle that weapon and it does go off, well you waisted one bullet. If you unsafely handle that weapon and it does go off, well you could destroy life and property.

good luck,
GVA

i took a primed brass out back and chambered it in one of my 308 steyrs. on 3rd position bolt lock i dropped it on the butt on the concrete pad repeatedly. no band. 2nd position safe no fire. fire position... no fire.

Now this is getting fun:

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
FMC,
Sounded to me that's just what you did get, or at least went off half cocked.

Well, I believe I wrote that I counted backwards from twenty before I replied. Had I not, I would have written that the statement

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
Is it any more reckless than the practice of those people who keep loaded handguns or long guns in their homes for protection?

was the most f_____g idiotic thing I've ever read on ACCURAETERELOADING, which I kept to myself.....at first

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Seeing as you don't hold a grudge, what are you on about here? Why do you keep loading and unloading your M70 in Canada? (Maybe I can help you out here with a few tips.)

Once again, let me enlighten the ignorant , one is not permitted to travel in a motor vehicle with a cartridge in the magazine well (in addition to the obvious empty chamber). There are many, many miles of logging roads one travels whilst moose/bear hunting. Hence the hemmorhoidal feeling

Of course the above statements are made in good humor, while bored at work and trying to aggravate all............

If a person cannot safely handle a rifle with a 2 position safety then that person shouldn't own a firearm.
Get real.

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
If a person cannot safely handle a rifle with a 2 position safety then that person shouldn't own a firearm.
Get real.

I love it!! Short and to the point, and very true.

quote:

Yes, that's correct.

I don't know of any other bolt action rifle that this can be done with. And it's a functionof the way the bolt/firing pin/safety assembly of the Model 70 is made.

The CZ bolt can be also be easily stripped of it's striker assembly for safely checking whether ammo will feed. The Kimber is another, but it is a model 70 copy. My earlier Kimber has a 2 position Model 70ish safety that doesn't lock the bolt handle down. I really wish it did, and will change it someday. I have changed one of my CZs over to the Gentry 3 position safety and will change my other one as well. That's a $300 conversion on a $1000 rifle, but it's worth it to me. The striker locking is the feature I value most, the rest is just gravy.

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
If a person cannot safely handle a rifle with a 2 position safety then that person shouldn't own a firearm.
Get real.

KCC, I'd go one further, and state that if a person can't handle a rifle without a safety, then that person shouldn't own a firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:

quote:

Originally posted by KC Carlin:
If a person cannot safely handle a rifle with a 2 position safety then that person shouldn't own a firearm.
Get real.

KCC, I'd go one further, and state that if a person can't handle a rifle without a safety, then that person shouldn't own a firearm.

It would be OK (to own one), as long as he/she can't have any ammo ). Never, ever trust a safety, any safety.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Now this is getting fun:
Once again, let me enlighten the ignorant , one is not permitted to travel in a motor vehicle with a cartridge in the magazine well (in addition to the obvious empty chamber). There are many, many miles of logging roads one travels whilst moose/bear hunting. Hence the hemmorhoidal feeling

Well that's good, I thought you may have had an obsessive compulsive disorder.