I'm talking hunting rifles here - not target.

The most important element of a hunting rifle is first that it be safe. Second would be that it is mechanically reliable. Third would be that it is accurate - at least accurate enough for effective hunting according to your conditions. That said:

I don't know how anyone can tolerate a 2 position safety. The 3 position safety, as found on Winchester 70's and quite a few others (that are pretty much copies) is so overwhelmingly important that I personally don't consider anything else a reasonable alternative.

The first advantage is that you can unload the gun without taking it off safe. This is simply no small thing.

Second advantage is that the safety mechanically blocks the firing pin. The firing pin simply cannot fall, unlike many safeties that simply block the trigger from moving or use some other form of stoppage.

Third advantage is that the bolt can be locked. Have you ever had to carry your rifle slung on your shoulder and had the bolt repeatedly knocked open. I have. Dragging a dead dear, or carrying you tree stand to another location. It happens.

I know that many very smart hunters are happy with their two position safeties. I just don't understand it. I also don't understand why this issue is seldom discussed. It's a big deal as far as I'm concerned.

Lest anyone accuse me of being a neophyte that doesn't know anything about what he speaks, I'm 56 years old, a certifiable gun nut, and have been hunting for 44 years. So, though I recognize there will be conflicting opinions (and I do respect them), my mind won't be easily changed. Please avoid character assassination. Let the fun begin.

I have a Win 70 and think it's great but I've never had the bolt of any gun get knocked open. If I'm dragging a deer, what do I care if the bolt gets knocked open on my empty rifle?

IMO the three position safety of the model 70 is the single greatest asset of this rifle.

Installing one to a M-98 Mauser is taking the old action to near perfection!

Yes.

The 3 position safety is my favorite.

Also, the worst possible safety is the tang mount. How are you supposed to use this properly with gloves on?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fjold:
. If I'm dragging a deer, what do I care if the bolt gets knocked open on my empty rifle?[/
QUOTE]
You obviously have never packed or dragged an animal in bear country.

Or you like tree branches and snow in your chamber.

I have a few Rugers as well as Winchesters. All these safetys are well fit and timed. With that said, I think much of it is subjective as I actually prefer the Ruger 3-position safety over the Winchester. It better fits me but I use and like both. Also, I have a couple of rifles that have two position safeties that lock the bolt. I like those safeties as well as they are either on or off. That feature has merit in some hunting situations.

I do not own one but have seen a custom tang safety rifle that locks the bolt. That safety appeared easy to operate w/out breaking your grip. That feature has merit as well.

As far as the middle safety position goes; the muzzle shouldn't be pointing in an unsafe direction while closing the bolt on a live round whether loading before going afield or cycling between shots in case it does go off. As far as unloading goes; one could utilize the drop box to avoid cycling the entire mag box.

So for me the safety that is most prone to failure is the one between the ears of the nut behind the butt.

GVA

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
Second advantage is that the safety mechanically blocks the firing pin. The firing pin simply cannot fall, unlike many safeties that simply block the trigger from moving or use some other form of stoppage.

One big advantage of the model 70 action over the Ruger in the middle position, which does not block the firing pin.

quote:

Originally posted by axle:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fjold:
. If I'm dragging a deer, what do I care if the bolt gets knocked open on my empty rifle?[/
QUOTE]
You obviously have never packed or dragged an animal in bear country.

Ahh yes! the "ol' ringing the supper bell" phenomenon. Doesn't take a Grizz very long to equate a shot with food!

I have an M70 and like the 3 position safety as well.

My Savage has a three position safety. Dunno if it locks the firing pin in the middle position. It locks the bolt when full on, I know that, and allows the bolt to be operated to unload in the middle position.

My Remington has a two position safety, just like my shotguns. I spend a lot of time with a shotgun, so maybe that's why other guys like the two position safeties - familiarity.

The Savage is a tang safety. I guess I never really thought about it as difficult to operate because I wear "flip open mittens", where the top part of the mitten flops open to expose a open finger glove. I see the deer, my fingers pop out from the mitten to work the safety and I wait for my shot. Never tried hunting with gloves because my fingers get cold easily and I think hunters mittens are better for keeping warm. I can see how that safety might be an issue for people wearing gloves. Never thought of that before.

quote:

Originally posted by MLG:

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
Second advantage is that the safety mechanically blocks the firing pin. The firing pin simply cannot fall, unlike many safeties that simply block the trigger from moving or use some other form of stoppage.

One big advantage of the model 70 action over the Ruger in the middle position, which does not block the firing pin.

And the other advantage is you can work the safety more freely,much better posy.
Win 70 & Win 70 copy 3 position safeties like that of the new Kimbers are one of the best in the business IMO.

Yes. The Model 70 safety is the best one ever invented for a bolt action rifle.

The bolt and trigger locking feature of the rearmost position is a good one.

But the ability to unload while on safe in the middle position is entirely unimportant.

You don't need to cycle each round through the chamber to unload. All you need to do is drop the floorplate (and every bolt rifle should have one of those) to empty the magazine and work the bolt one time to eject the round in the chamber.

I could make do quite well with a two position that locked the bolt and the trigger in the rear position.

Of course, not every bolt action rifle has a floorplate. My M70 does but my Savage 116 does not.

I dunno, after 33 years of hunting with a variety of bolt action rifles I've never had a bolt action open up when I was carrying it.

Entirely unimportant? You've got to be kidding!

Not too many years ago, all 2 position safeties locked the bolt while on safe. To unload the gun, you had to take the safety off. At least one person died, a few were injured, many had the beejeebus scared out of them when their rifles went off unexpectedly. That is when Remington, and others, changed their safeties so that the bolt would not lock even while the safety was engaged. This was ENTIRELY so the gun could be unloaded without taking it off safe.

Have you ever looked at how precarious a trigger is when engaged to a sear? When I take a rifle off safe, I am prepared for it to fire immediately. I've never had one that did, but it does happen.

Having the ability to operate the bolt to remove a loaded round is EXTREMELY important to me.

Have you ever hunted out of a raised blind? When you are finished hunting, you unload. Do you want that gun to fire while you are inside that room?

When Kimber came out with their near-Model 70 knock-off, they only had a 2 position safety. Hunters howled until they made it a 3 position safety.

So, I would argue that Remington's engineers, most other companies engineers, 10's of thousands of hunters, and I would disagree that the middle position is unimportant.

In fact, to me, it is one of my 3 favorite positions on a 3 position safety!

Fjold, if you've never had your bolt come open, then you must not hunt in thick woods. It's happened to me many times. It won't happen again.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
Entirely unimportant? You've got to be kidding!

Not too many years ago, all 2 position safeties locked the bolt while on safe. To unload the gun, you had to take the safety off. At least one person died, a few were injured, many had the beejeebus scared out of them when their rifles went off unexpectedly....

Why were these people not taking caution as to where the muzzle of a loaded rifle was pointing??
The way you describe things, its sounds as if the 2nd pos.of the safety overides any sensible due caution that people should be taking when handling a firearm, loaded or not, 3pos.safety or not.
As GaryVA pointed out human awareness of their actions is the most important safety mechanism.

Im quite happy to hunt with a rifle with no added lever safety at all, instead have chamber empty or bolt in upward position on first notch.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
Entirely unimportant? You've got to be kidding!

Not too many years ago, all 2 position safeties locked the bolt while on safe. To unload the gun, you had to take the safety off. At least one person died, a few were injured, many had the beejeebus scared out of them when their rifles went off unexpectedly. That is when Remington, and others, changed their safeties so that the bolt would not lock even while the safety was engaged. This was ENTIRELY so the gun could be unloaded without taking it off safe.

Remington changed theirs because they had a defective trigger that was prone to accidental discharges. That being said, who the hell unloads a rifle with it pointed at someone? People died because other people were stupid, not because the trigger/safety failed. I don't have a problem at all with unloading the rifle without the safety engaged, I've done it with many different rifles. Don't point the rifle at anyone and no one will get hurt if it discharges. Simple, no?

I also would be perfectly happy with a two position safety that locked the bolt when engaged. I don't feel the middle position is necessary either. The first time I hunted with my dad's M70 I didn't get a shot on a deer because I was unfamiliar with the safety, I flicked it forward and squeezed the trigger, the rifle didn't fire and by the time I figured out that I'd only moved it to the middle position the doe was gone. No big deal on a deer but I wouldn't want to make that mistake on a cape buffalo hunt. I'd like to think that my better familiarity with the M70 system will overcome that mistake, but there is the possibility of screwing that one up again. If I ever build a dedicated dangerous game rifle I'll probably fit it with a two position M70 style safety to keep that from happening. As far as the bolt locking, that's a feature I demand in a rifle. Some might not have ever had a bolt come open, but I've had it happen more times than I can count with the old tang style ruger that I used for many years. Around here I've hunted in lots of thickets and stray branches and vines have a way of grabbing your bolt handle and opening it. Locking bolt is a must for me.

quote:

Remington changed theirs because they had a defective trigger that was prone to accidental discharges.

This had nothing to do with the trigger, it was not defective. It worked just as designed.....the discharge was human error.

I wish Remngtion still used the locking 2 position safety I liked is MUCH better than the one now. BUT I do agree that the 3 position safety is an even better option.

It's easy to blame the people rather than the safety. But, one of the main purposes of a safety is to overcome human error, human stupidity, and momentary lapses of judgement.

You can sneer at the people that had accidents all you want, but had they had a safety that allowed unloading without taking the safety off, those accidents probably wouldn't have happened.

I would also say that it is easy to look down your nose at someone who has had an accident (as people did with Chaney), but if you handle guns long enough, your chances of having your own accident get pretty high. When you think you are immune from accident, that is when you are most likely to have one.

The safety that most likely prevents that from happening is the best safety. And that would be the 3 position.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
Yes. The Model 70 safety is the best one ever invented for a bolt action rifle.

close but, no.

the best is the Steyr SBS 96.
"Steyr's tang-mounted safety is a rotary, three-position design with a distinct twist. I am a big fan of three-position safeties; I like the ability to load or unload without having the rifle ready to fire. The fully ambidextrous safety of the SBS does that nicely but it also offers two other features: a red dot indicating fire, a white dot to indicate safe, and a third position where a white button actually pops up.

With the safety in this position, you can push the bolt down toward the stock and it will lock with an audible click. This reduces the risk of the bolt handle snagging a branch or other obstacle.

To unlock the bolt it is necessary to depress the white button on the safety and rotate it forward a bit. The bolt then pops back to the normal position, but remains locked and safe. Engaging the third safety position with the bolt open allows the bolt to be withdrawn. There is no separate bolt stop."
you should pick one up and try it.

One of the best features of the M70 safety is that you don't have to look at it to see which position the safety is in. Once you are familar with the rifle, puttng the safety on and off comes naturally.

I spend many hours dry-firing during the winter when I am not hunting for just that purpose. After one has become intimate with the rifle (as any good rifleman should) placing the safety in fire position comes naturally as you shoulder the rifle to acquire your target. Moving the safety to its rear position should also follow naturally as you lower the rifle.

I make this an important part of my dry-firing process so that when I am under hunting conditions I can recognise instantly what position the safety is in just by feel.

This works well for me, but I like to do most of my hunting alone, away from others.

If I am around a group of people - or a hunting partner, I still prefer to have an empty chamber.

Safeties are like vehicle handbrakes, although they hold, I still would not like to see a child play around the back axle. Likewise,Always be aware of where the barrel is pointed, regardless of what contraption youve got on your rig.

And for those where a 3pos. safety aint enough, why not get yourself a lever safety with a safety lever on the safety lever.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
Entirely unimportant? You've got to be kidding!

Not too many years ago, all 2 position safeties locked the bolt while on safe. To unload the gun, you had to take the safety off. At least one person died, a few were injured, many had the beejeebus scared out of them when their rifles went off unexpectedly. That is when Remington, and others, changed their safeties so that the bolt would not lock even while the safety was engaged. This was ENTIRELY so the gun could be unloaded without taking it off safe.

Have you ever looked at how precarious a trigger is when engaged to a sear? When I take a rifle off safe, I am prepared for it to fire immediately. I've never had one that did, but it does happen.

Having the ability to operate the bolt to remove a loaded round is EXTREMELY important to me.

Have you ever hunted out of a raised blind? When you are finished hunting, you unload. Do you want that gun to fire while you are inside that room?

When Kimber came out with their near-Model 70 knock-off, they only had a 2 position safety. Hunters howled until they made it a 3 position safety.

So, I would argue that Remington's engineers, most other companies engineers, 10's of thousands of hunters, and I would disagree that the middle position is unimportant.

In fact, to me, it is one of my 3 favorite positions on a 3 position safety!

Fjold, if you've never had your bolt come open, then you must not hunt in thick woods. It's happened to me many times. It won't happen again.

If a rifle, with a two position safety wich looks the bolt, fiers when the safety is taken off, there is something wrong with the rifle. Period.
Something can actually be wrong with a win70 safety to, you know.

The 70 safety IS the safest there is(short off the original safety on a M98), I'll give you that, but they can also fail.
For a person who cares about his guns, a Rem 700 is NOT an unsafe gun, and I have altered all mine to look the bolt as original.
I have several M98's with M70's. and while safe, it is not my preferable safety to operate in the field, and certainly not on a DGR.
I'd love to have Weatherby MkV safetys on all my rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

...the ability to unload while on safe in the middle position is entirely unimportant.

Not true.

If you do your reloading in your basement and you want to put a loaded round through your rifle while you are working up loads to make sure the bullet is seated back far enough, it's very reassuring that you can do it in a rifle with the safety on instead of one with the safety off. The fact that the Model 70 locks the firing pin instead of the trigger or sear is even more reassuring.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

I actually prefer the Ruger 3-position safety over the Winchester. It better fits me but I use and like both.

The Ruger 3 position safety on the Ruger 77 Mark II is only superficially like the safety on the Model 70. The Ruger safety locks only the trigger/sear, while the Model 70 locks the firing pin. The Ruger safety is in my opinion much inferior to the one on the Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

the best is the Steyr SBS 96.
"Steyr's tang-mounted safety is a rotary, three-position design with a distinct twist. I am a big fan of three-position safeties; I like the ability to load or unload without having the rifle ready to fire. The fully ambidextrous safety of the SBS does that nicely but it also offers two other features: a red dot indicating fire, a white dot to indicate safe, and a third position where a white button actually pops up.

With the safety in this position, you can push the bolt down toward the stock and it will lock with an audible click. This reduces the risk of the bolt handle snagging a branch or other obstacle.

To unlock the bolt it is necessary to depress the white button on the safety and rotate it forward a bit. The bolt then pops back to the normal position, but remains locked and safe. Engaging the third safety position with the bolt open allows the bolt to be withdrawn. There is no separate bolt stop."

Does this Steyr safety lock the sear/trigger, as on almost all rifles, or does it lock the firing pin as on the Winchester? If it does not lock the firing pin, then it definitely is not better than the Winchester.

I like the fact that the M70 locks the bolt and blocks the firing pin, but think it's awful from an ergonomic standpoint and much prefer the Remington safety and older Ruger tang safety. Of course, this preference is personal and some guys would prefer the Win design. Blocking the firing pin is a nice feature, but don't believe it is really more "safe" than a safety that blocks the sear. The issues I have heard of with the Remington safety that blocks the sear is when releasing the safety and the trigger is gunked up such that the connector doesn't return to position. I have never seen this happen and think it is very uncommon, but see how it could. I have read it happens with the M70 as well, but is even less common. As for locking the bolt, this is a nice to have, but not required for me. I have never had my bolt open nor have heard of it happening in any of the hunting camps I've been on across the country.

-Lou

kstephens, that is very interesting. I've never seen a Steyr, but will be on the lookout.

Bent, also very interesting - is altering the 700 safety to lock the bolt very difficult? I will surely have that done to my sole-remaining M700 (unless I have a 3 position installed on it - those are available also - I haven't seen anyone selling 2 position safeties to put on Winchesters)

Yes, there is something wrong with a rifle that fires when the safety is taken off. But isn't that the purpose of the rule to not point your rifle at anything you don't intend to shoot? Haven't you heard of Murhy's law that says if anything CAN, go wrong it will? And yes, Win 70 safeties can fail also - but the likelihood is so much smaller that it's pathetic. A Remington trigger can "gunk-up" as you said - a Win 70 trigger can't "gunk-up". If you are able to move the safety lever, it has locked the firing pin, unless the thumb lever has sheared (in which case it will fall off), or metal has sheared off the pivoting pin (which is equally unlikely).

I didn't say a remington was an unsafe gun. What I have said is that the Win 70 safety is superior to 2 position safeties.

As to those of you who say you've never had a bolt open on you, or that you've never heard of it happening - well you have now. You've heard it from two people here. If your gun stays in a scabbard (horse or atv), or you are in open places, then I can believe you've never seen it happen. Put it on a sling over your shoulder and walk through brush or even just moderate timber, and it's going to happen. This point is not even argueable. Believing something isn't true doesn't make it not true. I don't understand the scepticism here, unless you thing I work for Winchester and am trying to attack Remington rifles. That is not what's going on here.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:
As to those of you who say you've never had a bolt open on you, or that you've never heard of it happening - well you have now. You've heard it from two people here. If your gun stays in a scabbard (horse or atv), or you are in open places, then I can believe you've never seen it happen. Put it on a sling over your shoulder and walk through brush or even just moderate timber, and it's going to happen. This point is not even argueable. Believing something isn't true doesn't make it not true. I don't understand the scepticism here, unless you thing I work for Winchester and am trying to attack Remington rifles. That is not what's going on here.

It is every bit as aruable is you saying it will happen. I (and friends) have spent a lot of time over the last 25 years in heavy cover doing deer drives though grapevine and green briar thickets, bear drives in laurel thickets, hunting pigs in practically impenetrable TX brush, etc... with rifles that don't lock the bolt and it has never happened nor have I ever even heard of it happening until on the net. Maybe some guys are just build weird or wear their packs etc... different that causes it to happen. To say it is common or inevitable is not true in my experience. If it happened to me, certainly more than once in the many miles I have covered hunting, I would agree that a bolt locking safety is required, but since it hasn't or is not common except in the 2 instances you mentioned it is a nice to have. I have been on a hunt where the bolt from a Win M70 pulled out of the gun when a guy went to shoot a second round. I never heard what the problem was, but it happened.I have another friend who got rid of a M70 because the "#%$@" safety was always getting stuck on something he was wearing and he always found it somewhere between the second & fire position. Based on that singular instance, I could assume M70s are prone to this, but I don't.

-Lou

Well, Lou270, far be it from me to try to change your mind. You are being generous here, and not argumentative.

I was carrying a Rem 700 .280 synthetic over my left shoulder, a Warren & Sweat tree stand, and a back pack once, for about 1 mile back to my truck. The bolt dropped opened three times on me on that one walk. A couple years before that, I had a Rem 700 '06 drop open once on a walk back in. Two rifles, four instances. You will never make me believe it doesn't happen to more people than just me. Especially when we've had another hunter on this thread claim the same happened to him. Maybe the gravity and the brush are different where I hunt.

It didn't ruin my hunt. Didn't ruin my rifle. It did make me mad! I much prefer the Rem 700's that lock the bolt closed to those that don't.

I'm not posting anymore to this thread, because really, we're getting off the subject. My purpose was not to argue whether a bolt will fall open or not, or whether it is perfectly acceptable to have to take the rifle off safe to unload a chambered round. If you guys are ok with that, that's great. That's why some people buy Chevys and some buy Fords.

I've started getting a little too defensive, which I shouldn't. It was a great conversation, which is what I wanted. Thanks for indulging me.

I can't speak for the Steyr, but the Win 70 safety, and those like it, are far superior to any 2 position safety, in my book. (man, I just couldn't resist getting in that one last "dig")

Anyone else want to run with this?

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

I actually prefer the Ruger 3-position safety over the Winchester. It better fits me but I use and like both.

The Ruger 3 position safety on the Ruger 77 Mark II is only superficially like the safety on the Model 70. The Ruger safety locks only the trigger/sear, while the Model 70 locks the firing pin. The Ruger safety is in my opinion much inferior to the one on the Winchester.

LE270,

That statement is incorrect. The mkII as well as the newer Hawkeye absolutely locks the firing pin. Not only does it lock the firing pin but it will lock the firing pin and WILL NOT come off safe and flip/clunk all the way over to the fire position w/ a minor blow like the M70 does. Many complain about the mkII safety for this using the logic that it is harder to get it off safe, but I put the shoe on the other foot.

Also, no disrespect towards you but you NEVER perform an unsafe act as you describe and call it safe just because you are using a M70 safety in the second position. That is wrong. As said before, the difference in the second safe position between the mkII and the M70 is not that big of an advantage because you NEVER chamber or unchamber a live round where it is unsafe and dangerous!!!! If it is a bad thing for the round to go off in your basement and you know this, yet you make a practice of doing this anyway.... then your safety is broken.

GVA

MikeG50,

Was it a right hand bolt? If that was the case, I could see how you could run into the issue more easily with it slung on left side. I am right handed and sling on my right side. I could see how a bolt could catch on a pack, belt, etc... and open vs. incidental contact with brush.

-Lou

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
you want to put a loaded round through your rifle while you are working up loads to make sure the bullet is seated back far enough, .

Some strange ideas keep croping up. First up, the seating depth should be set with a dummy.

As for putting rounds through an action at home, I don't know about all bolts, but my M70 for instance, put safety in mid position, remove bolt, unscrew fireing pin and remove.

You now have a fairly safe bolt body to shuffle around.

Most if not all unloading shouldn't be left until your in a cabin/camp, and if your game to take a safety off to shoot, what's the big difference to do it to unload?
Flip the bolt handle up and your fairly safe.

If no floorplate, big deal. I don't know of a rifle that one has to completely close the bolt on to remove a round. Supposedly a CRF will eject with a short stroke, and the poor old PF, well, the round will fall out if you cough.

My mini-mauser safety was acting up, not what I'd call dependable, so it's now completely taken off.
So now it can't fail.
I never use a sling anymore, but if I did and was troubled about the bolt comming open I'd carry the rifle muzzle down, and a bit forward of my feet.
Mostly I couldn't care what sort of safety I had, it's up to us to know it's pecularities, but I like the way the ruger "locks" back into the fireing pin at the bolt shrowd.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

As for putting rounds through an action at home, I don't know about all bolts, but my M70 for instance, put safety in mid position, remove bolt, unscrew fireing pin and remove.

Yes, that's correct.

I don't know of any other bolt action rifle that this can be done with. And it's a functionof the way the bolt/firing pin/safety assembly of the Model 70 is made.

One thing I don't really understand in this discussion is the supposed great or important utility or desireability that some of you seem to see in having a bolt locked closed by the safety.

If a bolt is knocked open, then the rifle won't fire. If the bolt is knocked open, then it seems to me that it's a simple matter of closing the bolt. Where's the harm other than possibly simple inconvenience?

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

The mkII as well as the newer Hawkeye absolutely locks the firing pin.

Somebody is confused...

I don't know about the Hawkeye, but I do have experience with a Ruger 77 MkII. In fact, I just pulled mine out of the (locked) closet and checked it again. This safety does not lock the firing pin -- it doesn't have anything to do with the firing pin. It locks the trigger.

Compare it to a Model 70 safety. On the Model 70, the safety is attached to the bolt itself. So when you open the bolt and pull it back, the safety rides with the bolt. On the Ruger MKII, the safety stays with the action as the bolt is opened and pulled back.

Put the MK II safety in the middle position, and then try to pull the trigger. You will find that the trigger is blocked (as it is in the full safety position, when the bolt is also locked closed.) It does not block the firing pin.

On the Model 70, the safety does not have anything to do with the trigger as such. Instead, in the middle (2nd) and full safe (3rd) position, the Model 70 safety operates on the firing pin by blocking its movement and releasing the spring pressure on it -- the Model 70 safety controls the firing pin.
The Ruger 77 MK II safety controls the trigger.

As to the (relative) ease of moving the two different safeties or the positiveness of the detents of the safety positions on the two different rifles, you may indeed be correct about that. I do not consider that to be a point of much significance, although here too, given my druthers, I'll take the one on the Model 70.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeG50:

Bent, also very interesting - is altering the 700 safety to lock the bolt very difficult? I will surely have that done to my sole-remaining M700 (unless I have a 3 position installed on it - those are available also - I haven't seen anyone selling 2 position safeties to put on Winchesters)

Yes, there is something wrong with a rifle that fires when the safety is taken off. But isn't that the purpose of the rule to not point your rifle at anything you don't intend to shoot? Haven't you heard of Murhy's law that says if anything CAN, go wrong it will? And yes, Win 70 safeties can fail also - but the likelihood is so much smaller that it's pathetic. A Remington trigger can "gunk-up" as you said - a Win 70 trigger can't "gunk-up". If you are able to move the safety lever, it has locked the firing pin, unless the thumb lever has sheared (in which case it will fall off), or metal has sheared off the pivoting pin (which is equally unlikely).

It is easy to convert the 700's safety to lock on close, just braze an extention to the plate that the lever is attached to, that will fit in the slot in the action. Only the newest actions do not have the slot. There is also a slot in the bolt. Most of your local gunsmiths should be able to help you with that. Like You, I experienced that having the bolt open during carrying on my shoulder, was quite annoying.

You say a M70 trigger can not gunk out. Oh yes, it can. Rust and lack of oil can make the trigger so hard to moove, that if pulled accidently with the safety on, it will remain in the rear position, and the gun will fire when the safety is unlocked. Just like on the Rem 700. The thing is of course, that with a 700 with the bolt locked, one have to take off the ssafety to open the bolt at the end of the day, and if the trigger is stuck in the rear position, the rifle will fire.

This will not happen to any cared for rifle.

So what it boils down to, is - what is the safest gun, if you are an ignorant user?

Again, the operating of the M70 makes it by far my choise for a DGR.

3 weeks of your life you go to hunt Africa, and one forget to maintain the guns? Me thinks not, but if one does, beeing trampled by a Cape Buffalo seems appropriate.

I often wonder what sort of hunting people do. I have one rifle with a 2 position model 70 style lever - I cannot get it completely silent. Any game within 20yards is going to hear it on a still day.

When I see a deer I want to concentrate 100% on it. I bring the rifle up, take aim, slip the safety and shoot. With the model 70 style safety there is no way I can slip the safety with the rifle in the aim.

I did a survey of friends with Model 70 style safeties. They all admitted to taking them off safe before or as they mounted the rifle because of how awkward they are to operate....

Side safeties work for me. Loading and unloading are dangerous procedures which we all need to THINK about.