I have purchased some of the above (210 grain) for use with my new 300 Win Mag made by Rifles, Inc. Has anyone had any experience with these?

Thanks.

Larry, One of Lex Webernick's rifles will probably shoot everything well. The limited amount of HSM ammunition I've used (mostly 300 H&H with a Berger VLD) seemed to be related to target shooting rather than hunting, but was available at a great price. I'm not sure about the Berger HPBT...many of the "target bullet" makers are now making hunting versions of their bullets, but not sure on this one.

I probably was not clear that my question was not about accuracy. I wonder how these bullets perform on the animal.

I'd stick with something tried and true, like a Partition, A-Frame, Barnes, etc. I looked at the Bergers in my 300 H&H HSM ammunition, and they're definitely target bullets.

larry I've loaded some bergers, but they didn't want to shoot in my rifles. In general Bergers perfrom in a manner similar to a Ballistic tip. They have a tendency to open fast, and shed alot of weight and energy creating a large initial wound. Retained weight is typically around 40% with penetrate accordingly reduced. Guys who use them seen to like them, but it is a different style of bullet performance.

My goal is to shoot deer/hogs with something that hits hard and leave a big hole and therefore lots of blood to trail if necessary. Sounds like you guys are saying this won't happen.

They usually leave a big hole going in, often times big enough you can stick your fist into it. I would expect them to exit on deer, but maybe not Elk, depending on the range and velocity. The theory behind the bergers is to do enough damage around the initial impact there is no need to track.

Where you are planning to shoot a bullet that is both heavy for caliber, and rapidly expanding, I wouldn't worry too much for you intended game.

That combination on deer and hogs will be devistating. You will run the risk of allot of meat damage. On deer, particularly down there, you will get an exit, and you'll be able to put a grapefruit in it. if you hit shoulders you will lose them.

I have had some problems in the last year or so. I switched to Barnes Triple Shocks for my 270. I shot some hogs (perfectly) at close range. 50-75 yards. They ran off as if nothing happened. I might find a small amount of blood near where the animal was initially. Nothing else. I saw one run over 300 yards before I saw it fall. I had 2 more run about 400 yards that I subsequently found yet could not find any blood. These were both well shot.

I had one buck at about 150 that left not a single drop of blood where he was standing. I found him dead in a bad swamp not 50 yards away. Shot was well placed.

After these hog incidents, I think to a buck last year that I "missed". He wasn't far but was at a tough angle to shoot. At the shot, he stumbled and dropped his head as he ran off. I was sure I hit him but there was not a single drop of blood. After these hogs, I am no longer so sure.

I got a 300 Win Mag from Rifles, Inc. I want to make sure what I shoot leave a blood trail should it run off. My gun guys recommended this ammo. I had never heard of it.

Larry, if the bullet it too tough, it doesnt' leave much of a hole. There have also been some reports of some barnes bullets not opening up quite right.

Biggest blood trail I've ever seen was from a 200gr Ballistic Tip out of a .338 Winchester. 6x6 Bull elk at about 100 yards broadside. Enterance hole I could stick my fist in. Looked like someone had painted the snow with a spray gun. Blood trail was 8 feet wide, and all of 25 feet long, and that's where the Elk laid.

The Bergers are supposed to have similar performance. On deer, I wouldn't worry about them not exiting...Just keep them off the shoulder, or you might not have much to eat.

I've used the Match Hunting VLD in my 270WSM in 140gr on big Canadian white tails & you should have no problem with the 210gr out of a 300WinMag not fully penetrating the smaller bodied deer down in FLA. As previously mentioned...I'd stay away from a shoulder shot on deer as it will ruin a lot of meat, just pull the shot back an inch or so from the shoulder blade & it'll be fine.

As for hogs...I've never been lucky enough to come across any of the feral hogs we have up here, they're around but few & far between...someday I hope to have some real world data on a hog or two and the 140gr .277 VLD's. I'm gonna venture an educated guess that hogs will drop like lightening when hit with the 210gr VLD!

Happy hunting!
CK82

Not in .300 but have tried HSM with 130gr Berger HPBT in a Tikka 6.5x55. Velocity was high for that cartridge (2960fps ave)accuracy mediocre at 1.5-2MOA (sub MOA is easy with that rifle and good loads).

Guy I hunted with a few years ago (feel bad I forgot his name on here) put a Berger from a 300 Win through an antelope at about 200 yards, maybe less. If that goat had been standing up while dead, you could have seen half the Colorado horizon looking through one side to the other! He said it was like a light switch kill....just, dead. Fairly impressive.

I think the Barnes at the velocity and distance you were shooting probably weren't the best combo. VERY fast impact velocity, good chance you sheared the petals right off and made a .277 sized solid.

Larry,

I know several of the long range guys that use Bergers exclusively. Best of The West is located here in Cody. On broadside shots you'll get pretty dramatic kills and significant blood. Do not try raking shots. The Bergers are designed to give 3-4 inches of penetration and then nearly complete fragmentation. To me the Accubond makes more sense as it has almost the BC of the Bergers but will open quickly while still retaining about 60% of its weight.

Mark

I just shot my first buck with these bullets. Most impressive. Lots of damage and mass quantities of blood. They beat the hell out of the TSX all day long.

Larry,

I load the 168 VLD in my 7RM at a velocity of 2950 fps.

To date, I've killed moose, deer, eland, waterbuck, blue wildebeest, black wildebeest, zebra, kudu, springbok, baboon, gemsbok, warthog and red hartebeest. All were one shot kills except the warthog and the kudu. The first shot on the warthog was a Texas heart shot and it needed a finisher. The first shot on the kudu was a running shot where I misjudged the distance hitting and breaking the hips. The second shot was a finisher. Oh yes, the second gemsbok I killed required 3 shots. All three hit him in the chest and he went down after every shot but got back after each except the last one. Interestingly, his lungs and heart were totally destroyed so how he ever lived as long as he did is just one of those rare occurences.

In addition, I load the 130 Berger VLD in my 260 Rem for a velocity of 2770. So far, I've killed about a half dozen deer with it and most were bangflops.

BTW, the eland bull was running quartering away from me at approximately 100 yards. The Berger entered through the ribs on his right side angling towards the left shoulder. Penetration was approximately 18". He was dead before he skidded to a stop.

Based on my experiences, the Berger should prove very effective on deer and hogs.

Bobby B.

I shot my Utah moose with a 300 Wby and the 185 grn Bergers. The first shot was broadside through the left shoulder. He then turned away from me offering a quartering-away shot. I place the bullet in front of his hind-left leg and he tipped over.

When we dressed him out, I noticed that there were no exit holes on the right side. There were large blood shot areas the size of coffe cans on the right shoulder and on the right side of his neck. The bullets had fragmented and created lots of tiny cutting devices that traveled through his body. The butcher told me that there were areas the size of coffe cans that he had to cut out because of blood shot muscle.

I was a little dissapointed that the bullets didn't stay together better, but all of the energy from that bullet was spent inside of the bull and he died. Then again, I use the bullets and will do so in the future.

I wonder if that was because of the speed of the bullet in a Weatherby.

Shot a nice 4 pt buck about 125 lbs with a 168g Berger Classic Hunter in 30-06 loaded to the old US GI Match load (47g 4895).. Distance was a hair over 100 yards. I think those run a MV somewhere in the 2,700 fps range, and probably an impact velocity around 2,600 fps...

Accuracy wise - Superb! If your rifle likes Match Kings - it will LOVE Berger Classic Hunters... Plain VLD's... Well - if your rifle shoots Berger VLD's well - then it will do fine with the Hunting VLD's....

Terminal performance wise... Heart/lung shot - dropped in it's tracks, stone dead by the time he hit the ground.... Left a fairly large exit wound - maybe 3" diameter. Internal organs were pretty much mush. The opposite shoulder was pretty well blood shot from bullet fragments.

Overall, the feedback I can personally give is... Do you LOVE ballistic tips? If so - these are even better... If you hate ballistic tips... These are even worse...

Shoot heavy for caliber, and lower velocity for caliber if you don't want to blow stuff up... This will also help ensure you get an exit wound to help tracking...

Don't shoot for bone - shoot for a heart/lung shot.... At Magnum velocities - I would expect to pour out the internal organs and see more blood shot meat unless you were shooting a LONG way out...

Hope this helps...

quote:

I wonder if that was because of the speed of the bullet in a Weatherby.

Larry,

The velocity of the bullet could be culprit, but I think that the bullet was designed to do what it did in my moose.

There was a detailed story last year in Handloader or Rifle where the bossman of Berger and the usual gang of writers went to NZ to hunt Red Stag and feral goats. The Bergers killed the game with selected shots BUT did not penetrate through or leave any blood trail. I shoot 300 gr Bergers in my "too heavy to carry" 338 RUM (20 pounds) and they will shoot 1/4 to 1/2 MOA. 225 Accubonds, going faster at typical hunting ranges will hold 3/4-1 MOA.
Bottom line ..... no reason to use large varmint (section a match bullet) on big game.
Waiting to get my paws on some of the new 280 gr LRX "338 Lapua" bullets from Barnes. If they shoot 1 MOA (what Barnes does not?), they should be the ultimate big game .338 bullet for any of the big 338 magnums. (Lapua, RUM or Weatherby).
I'm not "man enough" to handle a sporting weight RUM, draw the line at 300 H&H ar 375 H&H, but for the iron men among you it should be a terrible killing machine.

BTW, this is "too heavy to carry" the bbl is 36"!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I wonder if that was because of the speed of the bullet in a Weatherby.

Most likely...
If you see my results at significantly lower velocity - I had plenty of exit hole....

Expansion is proportional to velocity... The higher Impact velocity - the more expansion you get...

The more expansion - the less penetration you get....

Want a Berger to expand less... shoot slower velocities.... which means either shoot something with less oomph up close.. like say a 300 savage or 308 inside of 300 yards.... or save the Magnums for long ranges (600+ yards)...

Or.. if you don't want that sort of thing... pick a different bullet...

Thanks

I've read a lot on Bergers and even purchased their first reloading manual. Like Mark Young stated they are designed to penetrate 2-3 inches and then lose 60 to 80% of their weight. They are not designed to exit and they are not designed to "blow Up" on entry. Typical Berger performance is a tiny hole going in, massive trauma in the vitals, and no exit. It's not going to leave a blood trail but most people report fast kills with no need for tracking. You also have to make sure you buy their "hunting" VLDS and not their Target. My understanding is the target has a thicker jacket and doesn't expand reliably.

quote:

but most people report fast kills with no need for tracking.

That's all I need to hear to keep sending TSXs and TTSXs THROUGH animals I hunt.

"most" equates to lost animals left to suffer a miserable death.

The plain old unbonded Sierra Game King is a better HUNTING bullet than any Berger as real Hunters view 400 yards as a VERY long shot and have no need of the slight ballistic advantages that Bergers offer. They are basically no different than any other Match bullet .... basically a large varmint bullet which IMHE is a not approprite bullet for big game.
Again we have sniper wannabes and others who listen to them holding forth while experienced hunters are applying real hunting skills to get in close and make humane kills.
I like Bergers, SMKs, Hornady Match etc just fine for punching paper and ringing gongs at long range. Sierra at least tells the truth about what SMKs are for ...... others seem more interested in market share than promoting ethical hunting.

Still waiting for the first Berger lover to take on a charging Buff or Kodiak ..... hope it's on video. Too bad Major Grey's misadventure with just a Lion using Berger like bullets was not captured on film........

Tell your PH, you're coming on the Cape Buffalo hunt with Bergers and share the reaction with us.
(chuckle)

You sound like an expert on Bergers. I guess everything documented on them are wrong and they are just large varmint bullets. Good to know. I did buy a box but haven't tried them yet.

I guess I'll just continue to use Ballistic Tips, Interlocks and Hot Cors. I hope they are still ethical to hunt with.

Never mind those of us with actual experience with them leaving plenty of exit hole.. Plenty of blood.... and an animal laying in it's tracks where it was shot from a garden variety heart/lung shot that would normally have seen a short run/walk off...

Yes.. sure... Up close with a magnum - they probably will make a mess and may not exit... but far off with a magnum or up close at "Conventional" or "Slow" velocities... you get sufficient penetration... and plenty of exit wound if you shoot it in a place you are likely to get an exit wound...

How about a 45-70? Is that enough gun? Large enough to leave an exit wound on a deer? Last month - out hunting.. One of my uncle's buddies shot a 90 lb doe with a 45/70.. about 30 yards.. Factory ammo.. 300gr Remington hollow points... Quartering towards him, high on the front shoulder... No exit hole! Sure - it went end to end, busted the little deer to pieces, and lodged under the hide in the rear ham... From what I saw helping dress and quarter it - about 80% of the entire animal was blood shot.... It was a mess... so yeah... it's not specific to Bergers or Ballistic tips or whatever... More a factor of how fast the bullet is going and where you hit....

Thanks

Perhaps those that have never tried a Berger hunting pill could confine their comments to projectiles with which they have first hand experience?
I've tried the 130gn .270 hunting VLD on boars to 200lbs and feral donkeys to around 500lbs and been happy with the results. Seem to kill faster than the 130gn TTSX out of the same rifle at the same velocity (3250 FPS).

My original post had to do with whitetail hunting here in FL. I have shot 3 deer and a single hog with them. The results have been most impressive . The deer all went straight down, no kicking, no thrashing. They exited with lots of blood on the ground. I am extremely happy with their performance.

Having said that, no way in hell would intro them on a big animal like elk, moose, bear, buff etc.

"Everything documented on them" ????? Can you share your independently verified data on ..... say .... 100 kills on big game (including ones that bite, claw and stomp) ?

Even the advocates, like the Berger Co. owner, has admitted IN PRINT that they act like a big varmint bullet. Tiny entrance hole, violent expansion inside the animal and no exit hole.

There is no rational reason to use a match bullet on big game, given the dozens of choices of bullets that are DESIGNED for hunting big game.

In any case, the point will soon be moot, once the monometal bullet laws expand acreoss the country and we will all be shooting Barnes or Barnes knock offs.

Only a complete dunce would believer that Nosler, Norma, Hornady, Remington, Woodleigh and Lapua have introduced monometal bullets due to the Condors. Once the Barnes patents expired, they all jumped on the bandwagon to get MARKET SHARE, long before they would be forced to by law.

Two factors at work here: the evil profit motive, combined with the realization that at some point, it will be required by law.

Just as an aside, I probably shoot more match bullets than 99% of gun owners ..... I just don't hunt with them.

As for the guy with the 45-70. The deer was a clean kill, THAT is objective #1. The bloodshot meat was a byproduct of busting up a lot of bones fragmenets as well as a quite soft bullet shedding lead and jacket fragments. Had he hit the deer on the front shoulder bone and rear hip bone with a 500 gr solid, the results would have been about the same....... a very dead deer.
Have no idea how many big game animals this "expert" has killed with 12 bore Brenneke slugs, my count is over 3 dozen. When you hit large bones you also get bloodshot meat even from a slow moving non expanding "bullet". You also get a dead deer. I'll happily give up a few pounds of meet from a "dead on the spot" deer with two broken shoulders than have a match bullet blow up on the shoulder, leaving a big crater wound and a deer to run off and die a horrible, lingering death from infection (or get eaten alive by Coyotes).

Stupid is as stupid does.

I like feeding trolls. If trolls try to bite, stomp or claw me, I'll use a Berger so as just to deter them a little without actually doing any damage.

This is what I hate about AR. People have differences of opinion. Fine I get that. The all too often instant deterioration of a simple discussion into a childish tirade when one has a different opinion is ridiculous. Does the name calling accomplish anything?

Amazing, absolutely amazing.

Larry,

Everything but my first post is tongue in cheek. I don't think it was a tirade. I just posted what's in Berger's manual, what I read from Richard Mann who tested Bergers extensively in his bullet tube and on wild hogs, plus writings of John Barsness who used them in New Zealand on red stag. I just find it humorous that someone that knows nothing about them is insistent that they are nothing more varmint bullets or matchkings. I have no dog in the fight because I've never used them but was just relaying information from people who have. I'll bow out now.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I am extremely happy with their performance.

Having said that, no way in hell would intro them on a big animal like elk, moose, bear, buff etc.

I'm shooting the 168 VLD (hunting) from my 7mag at 3037fps. I shoot the 150 VLD from 2 of my 270s. I've killed a lot of deer with the Bergers and one bear. I would certainly use them again on black bears (soft skinned and die quicker than deer or at least the same), and will definitely have them as an option on elk. Most all of mine have passed through. Here's my 7mag group:



My newest 270 is shooting the 150s at 3050fps:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Typical Berger performance is a tiny hole going in, massive trauma in the vitals, and no exit.

All of my Bergers have passed through. My first Berger kill was with a new 308 and the 210 VLD "break-in" load which shot very very well so I just used it to hunt with that season. I stuffed them over a mild charge of IMR4064. The bullet blew through this buck and left a non-stop blood trail. The same has occurred on the remaining 20 or so deer I've killed with my 270/150 VLD combo.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
The plain old unbonded Sierra Game King is a better HUNTING bullet than any Berger

How so? I've never had a Sierra shoot as well or consistent as a Berger. I've never lost a deer or bear with a Berger.

quote:

...as real Hunters view 400 yards as a VERY long shot...

That is a subjective/judgmental statement. AND, I respectfully disagree with it. I'm a REAL hunter and I say 400 yards is a breeze because I practice and shoot the right set up. I don't think it is a VERY long shot at all. I can shoot 400 yard targets a hell of a lot better than most of my buddies can do at half that distance.

quote:

Again we have sniper wannabes and others who listen to them holding forth while experienced hunters are applying real hunting skills to get in close and make humane kills.

With that kind of line, then the ONLY real hunters use archery or spears or handguns. I've seen some "real" hunters get close with a rifle then totally &%$* up and shoot a deer in the face or ass or leg...yea, like 75 yards close. So much for skill, stalking, and a humane kill.

quote:

Still waiting for the first Berger lover to take on a charging Buff or Kodiak

Why? They are not appropriate for such game. Not sure if you've noticed but a lot of bullet makers label the appropriate use for their different bullets. I don't think Berger has done this but your "real hunter" mentality makes me wonder if you even use a firearm to hunt with. If you don't archery hunt, try that. You'll probably like it. It's "real hunting" where using a firearm is plain cheating.

Be sure to have your next of kin let us know how you BUFF or Kodiak hunt using Bergers (or any match bullet) turned out.
Hope some good video is taken.

This is an interesting link from another board. RC, who is a former member on this site, posts his results with a nice bull elk and 140 VLD.

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...er_exits#Post7091112

I've taken quite a few antelope and a few whitetails with 95gr VLD Hunting Bergers in my 243 and they all exited the off side. Most of those were DRT, a few have taken a few steps and went down.

They shot extremely well in my 243 and I will continue to use them.

I have a 6mm-284 that I use 105gr Bergers in and have not taken a deer with it yet but, I expect the same results.

I have a basic theory. Bullets that work very well on relatively small light skinned game aren't worth a damn on bigger heavier skinned game. For example, the Sierra Game King BTSP. While these may be devastating to a 170 pound whitetail, they will often not penetrate or even break up on larger heavier skinned game.

On the other hand, bullets that work well on relatively large and or thicker skinned game do not work well on smaller thin skinned game. I do not believe they open up as well with the deer sized targets. While they most certainly kill the animal in question, the smaller quarry tend to run off more often and leave less of a blood trail when shot with these heavier bullets.

I remember in the 80's I switched from 150 grain Nosler Partitions in my 270 to 150 grain Sierra Game King BTSP. The difference was immediately noticeable. Fewer deer ran and on those that did, there was much more of a blood trail on what appeared to be similar shots.

As for the Berger's, I have limited experience. I have shot 3 deer and 1 hog with them this year. There was complete penetration with a large exit hole with massive tissue damage. The deer never moved (literally). No twitching, no nothing. Within seconds, I could see a massive pool of blood forming. This is entirely consistent with my theory above.

I would not even think of using them on dangerous gsme or something like a moose.

By the way, my comments before were NOT directed at Scott.