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At times shots at game are not taken at what is thought to be long range  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | ||
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I voted "the Rifle", because if the rifle cannot accurately shoot at long range nothing else matters. I consider the rifle, scope and ammo as "one unit". I have killed deer with a Ruger No1 in 45/70 at 230, 240, and 250 yards, with a 2.5x scope. That gun, scope, ammo, combo shoots like a Sniper Rifle, and I know how high to hold at that distance because I tested it at distance. No matter how accurate a Rifle I have, if I cannot get steady, I do not shoot... Also If I am severely winded, and thus not steady, I will not shoot... Also weather conditions play a part. If it is raining too hard, snowing too hard or the wind is blowing too hard I do not take long range shots. To connect consistantly with long range shots EVERYTHING has to be right, along with a LOT of practice, at the ranges you intend to shoot. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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My limiting factor is the shooting conditions, wind primarily. I shot a 1,000 yard match last week with the MRC 6.5x284 that I use for longe range hunting and could hold 2.5" of vertical dispersion at that range but the variable winds spread the group out 12" wide. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I voted Available Rest as firstly, I wouldn't be even thinking of taking the shot if the rifle or I weren't capable of it and then the next factor is the rest. | |||
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I voted the rifle because other factors can be controlled and may vary but the rifles capability is the final limiting factor and is constant. Regards 303Guy | |||
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I voted rest... My assumption is that I have a reasonable accurate rifle/ammo combination. I don't hunt with anything that is above 1.5 moa Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I voted me because, even with a good rest, depending on the rifle, my ability to hold on the kill zone at extened ranges is iffy. We're talking 500/600 yards here, far beyond what I would normally attempt on a game animal. I have taken successful 400 yard shots from a solid rest and 300+ off my knee. Knowing my limitations based on the situation is my primary consideration. I wouldn't take a 400 yd shot with a .375 off sticks, although I have made successful 300 yd shots. On the 7mm, with a solid rest, I've done successful 400+ yd shots. It all depends on me and how I feel about the situation. | |||
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You understand all of your choices interconnect. I voted me because even tho I can do all I can to make the rifle and the ammo as near perfect as I can, and never shoot an iffy shot, I feel that I am the weak link in the set up. Compared to some of the barrel stretching distances I hear claimed, my self imposed max distance is very modest at best. I much prefer to indian up on the game. That's the real challenge. not potting something in the next county that doesn't even know you're around.  | |||
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+1 Of course, if the wind is terrible, or I am winded or some other factor makes my usual abilities suspect, I don't shoot. | |||
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All of the above, and they work together like an equation. | |||
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The answer is, of course, the available rest. Besides "other" which I would take to include conditions or other factors out of the hunter's control, the available rest is the ONLY factor which is not controllable BEFORE the hunt starts or BEFORE you pull the trigger (winded, wait until you aren't). That too, could or would be mitigated somewhat if everyone carried a long adjustable bipod on their rifle, but most of us choose not to for many good reasons. Obviously if someone is thinking of taking long range shots, then they shouldn't go hunting with a .30-30, .44 magnum, .45-70 or similar rainbow trajectoried cartridges. On second thought, I suppose "you" would be a reasonable answer, based on the phrasing of the question. Obviously if someone just can't shoot well, for whatever reason(s), then they shouldn't try to shoot poorly farther. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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I voted "other". At every distance, long or short, there are many things which have to be right prior to my launching a shot at any animal. And, things have to STAY right during the time between launch and the bullet completing its work. If I do not have a high sense of certainty those conditions will be met, I will not shoot. My code won't let me. The very first thing that has to be right for me, is the answer to "Why am I shooting at this creature? If it is just to to collect a "trophy", I will not shoot at any range. I don't think that alone is enough reason to justify my killing anything. A camera lens with a crosshair etched on it will do just as well. There ARE motives which allow me to shoot, but a "trophy" is not one of them. Back to the gist of the question as I believe Roger may have meant it, two of the most important things to me are having a good estimate of the distance, and a good feel for the weather conditions prevailing. I already know my rifle, my ammunition and my marksmanship are adequate. Important as both distance and weather are to me, the most important is the animal itself. Is it at all likely to make any unexpected move? If it is feeding, the shot is not taken. Ditto if it is travelling to or from a bedding area or to water. A calm, resting animal is better for ME to shoot, than one which is moving about...especially during the rut when the animals are very "antsy". Long range in itself may be a disqualifier when it comes to taking a shot. The longer the range, the more time there is for something to go wrong during the bullet's flight. I once was hunting deer in southern Alberta and was within a millisecond of touching off a shot when the deer and something else both moved violently at the same instant. A cougar I had not seen had been stalking the same deer through the grass, and had either lept at it or spotted me and lept in the deer's general direction when surprised! Either way, I am darned glad the bullet was not in flight. I would not have wanted to wound either animal. Animals generally move a LOT, without fore-notice of their intent, and the closer one is to them, the less likely that is to cause a wounding shot instead of a humane, fatal, one. As the name of the game is "hunting", not "wounding", I simply no longer ever shoot any any animal more than about 250 yards away. If I was starving, longer shots might well be taken, but as I am far from starving (could probably do without food a lot more often than I have), I prefer to get my fun by proving I can get close enough to the animal that I could have used a much older, less potent arm. An exception, of course, would be if I NEEDED to kill an animal such as a rabid fox or coyote to protect others and the environment. Then I would shoot quickly and often, if need be. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Me. I am in control of all the rest. If I want to shoot one a long way out I will make it happen. Just because I see deer at beyond where I want to be shooting at them doesn't mean it's a missed opportunity. If I am looking to shoot one at long range and I have to pass because I cant hold it, bad licht, my rifle/load aren't up to it, etc then it's a lost opportunity. | |||
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Bingo!!! | |||
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I actually think "you" is not a valid choice... "you" is a constant here in my mind. I am always the shooter and my skills are what they are. The rifle is what it is and is also a constant for the specific scenario faced... unless we are talking about the difference between a 30-30 and a 270 Win...I am having difficulty seeing the likely scenario being... I am going to pass on the 325 yard shot because I only have a 308 win and not my 270 win. I would see it much more likely to be...I can't go prone so I will pass on the 325 yard shot... I am not saying it never happens, I am saying I would think that the rest is the most likely limiting factor Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Frank nailed it. Anyone who doesn't think of the four letter word in the world of shooting (WIND) hasn't done much long range shooting. At some point, given great equipment and lots of practice, the wind becomes the variable that you just can't control, "Best of the West" BS not withstanding. But I will add one other factor: inability to practice at that range. In other words, if you can't practice at 500 yards, no other factor matters. You don't have any business shooting that far at game. And access to one rifle range doesn't really cut it - over time you will learn the to almost subconciously adjust for the little nuances of the range. | |||
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Let me pick this one apart, one sentence at a time:
You've never been hung-over, had the flu, been running a fever?
It's not, which is why we have "fouling shots" and cold bore / hot bore distinctions. Run a patch and let the bore cool and you're shooting a different rifle.
Yeah, well . . . despite your "list" in the signature, I'm good out to 600 yds w/ the Rem. 700 Police in .308 Win. -- if the bore is clean and the barrel is cool. Helps to have the ammo temp under control too. There's a reason why 1000 yd. competitions put out wind flags. But the variables all work together like an equation. | |||
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I agree with Frank, picked "Other" because of wind. However, it also depends on how much actual "Practice" I've got at distance. I just don't shoot beyond the distance I've been Practicing, whatever that distance happens to be. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills. | |||
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Hey Mike, Where did Bartsche "ask" if "you" was a Valid choice?  | |||
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Before I go on a hunting trip I take the rifle I'm takeing and get to know it very well at the range. Like when I shot my Zerba, That was a 280 yard shot. I knew I could do it and I did. | |||
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Me or the available rest, but most times it is me. If I don't feel comfy shooting at a deer way out there I just won't. And yet a different day I could make the shot. | |||
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Virtually everything you listed comes into play. Do you practice at longer ranges frequently? Is your equipment up to the challenge? Is your available rest steady enough? Have you shot that particular ammunition at longer ranges? There's so many factors that all lead up to the basics; are you and your equipment (including ammo) up to the challenge that day and do you practice such shots regularly. Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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Yep wind can surely affect a shot. Windless days aren't without their challenges. On perfectly calm days sometimes a mirage or "boil" is the nemesis. Shooting through or into a boil can be very unpredictable. | |||
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I voted for YOU.If YOU don,t practice for the shots YOU will be persented in the field I don,t care how good the rifle and load is YOU ain't going to do well.It would be neat if we all had the perfect rest,wind ect,but we don't.Once again I think folks need to practice.If YOU use pod, shoot prone,sitting whatever YOU need to practice.Me I always have a sling on my rifles,not a carrying strapand I practice what I expect to see in the field.Just what I think.Good Luck | |||
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I voted available rest but IMO, the most important issue is wind. You can laser for dorp & have the best shooting rifle & a good rest, but misjudge the wind by a mere 5mph & you are wounding or missing much past 300yds. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Then don't shoot past 300 yards. Simple.  | |||
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Errors in estimation of wind and range are the biggest factors. Then there's the fact that an animal can move sometimes off your field of view in the time it takes for a bullet to get from here to there. TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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Very true. If I can't dope the wind, I don't take the shot. If I don't know the exact range past 350, I won't take it, either. Point blank range on my 7mm Rem. Dakota is about 280 yards , which makes a 350 yard shot possible with about eight inches of holdover. So I still go with "you." The computer that controls the situation is between your ears. | |||
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I voted me for the limitting factor. I understand and agree with the comments on wind etc., but find there are far more 400 yd rifles than 400 yd riflemen and I'm not one of them. Then again, I practice to 300 yds and have never had cause to take a shot even that long. More of a sneaker than a sniper I guess. Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | |||
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I agree with maki. Completely. | |||
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My sentiment exactly. | |||
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I think "me" is the main factor. Ever. This factor, alone, is in charge of all the others !!! PH | |||
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I like your thinking, have a favorite load for going way out there? Thanks Greg | |||
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Not really PatagonHunter. At some point, wind drift is such a problem that there is no amount of skill that can compensate for it. For example, once your bullet drifts more than 5 inches per ONE mile per hour of wind, I would say you cannot statistically put 90 percent of your bullets into a 10 inch circle. If anyone disagrees and thinks they can do it, I will pay them 1000 bucks. Make a good story one way or the other. | |||
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I conciter myself a good shot. Way back when I was in the ARMY I was a Sharp Shooter but scence then I have shot alot more. and I have a scope that tells you the distance your bullet is hitting. | |||
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Agree with you about the wind AZWriter! But in that case "me" decide not to make the shoot. This is what I tried to say. Best Regards PH | |||
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I vote for rest. I have to wonder if someone picked rifle or Ammo why you would stay with them. I'm lucky enough to have two hunting rifles that far out perform me. I know what I can do free hand and game along way away usually give me time to find a rest. So for long shot 300+ the good rest makes the difference. Ofcourse then if anything goes wrong I know it was me. YIKES!!! | |||
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I voted rest because I almost never shoot over @40 yards without one. Wind is next for me. I carry a range finder but in the field it's hard to estimate wind speed and direction well. Sei wach! | |||
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1. The effect of wind drift. 2. Correct range estimation not having a range finder. 3. Not having a high-BC bullet @ high velocity (ie high-velocity cartridge) 4. Not having a high quality parralax agjustable scope 5. Non availability of a proper rest 6. Having a rifle without a smooth & crisp trigger pull. Warrior | |||
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I voted "other" because the limiting factor for me: Is my respect for the animal I'm hunting! ________ Ray | |||
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