I have been considering a project to convert a Sako 75 '06 length action to a 338-06--separate thread--and it led me to start this thread to garner input on the impact of bore diameter on killing effectiveness on game.

I want to have a rig that is effective to 400 yards,on Elk size game. I have capable 270, 300, and yes even 6.5 caliber cartridge based rigs that I feel are capable, and in the case of the 270's and 300's have actually utilized them effectively on elk at that range and somewhat beyond, so I know they will do the job, my question is, what is folks thinking of bore diameters impact, and also in parallel, at what velocities??

For example, would you rather have a 270 caliber bullet at whatever would be typical velocity at 400 yards, or a 338 caliber at minimum type velocities--meaning in this case whatever would be typical of a 338-06 at 400 yards??

Doesn't this all come back to the Taylor Knockout formula? I assume that it can be calculated for projected velocities at different Ranges 200 or 400 in your case?

I found this link doing a search on AR.


http://benchrest.com/sst/taylor.html

Bore diameter is pretty irrelevant in a hunting bullet assuming that the bullet is properly expanding.

"Knockout" formulae, "power" formulae, and the ilk are armchair excercizes. None of them consistently quantify the ability to traumatize an animal's vital organs, thus they have little meaning.

A .45 caliber solid at 2200 fps put through a whitetail's lungs might allow that 130-lb deer to run several hundred yards before expiring. The same bullet through the brain of an 8,000-lb elephant would likely drop it on the spot. No one's formula attempts to take factors like this into account.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Bore diameter is pretty irrelevant in a hunting bullet assuming that the bullet is properly expanding.

"Knockout" formulae, "power" formulae, and the ilk are armchair excercizes. None of them consistently quantify the ability to traumatize an animal's vital organs, thus they have little meaning.

A .45 caliber solid at 2200 fps put through a whitetail's lungs might allow that 130-lb deer to run several hundred yards before expiring. The same bullet through the brain of an 8,000-lb elephant would likely drop it on the spot. No one's formula attempts to take factors like this into account.

I agree, bullet design is very improtant, but the larger bullets do hit harder at all ranges imo. My only concern w/ the 338-06 out to 400yds is bullet performance. If I knew I would be taking a 400yd shot, I would go for a soft bullet like the Sierra 215gr, 200grNBT or Hornady 200grIL. A larger bullet will expand to a larger dia. all things being equal.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
I have been considering a project to convert a Sako 75 '06 length action to a 338-06--separate thread--and it led me to start this thread to garner input on the impact of bore diameter on killing effectiveness on game.

I want to have a rig that is effective to 400 yards,on Elk size game. I have capable 270, 300, and yes even 6.5 caliber cartridge based rigs that I feel are capable, and in the case of the 270's and 300's have actually utilized them effectively on elk at that range and somewhat beyond, so I know they will do the job, my question is, what is folks thinking of bore diameters impact, and also in parallel, at what velocities??

For example, would you rather have a 270 caliber bullet at whatever would be typical velocity at 400 yards, or a 338 caliber at minimum type velocities--meaning in this case whatever would be typical of a 338-06 at 400 yards??

Fish, this isn't really to the point but instead of making a 338-06 I think you should make yourself a 9,3x62 out of the rifle if you don't already have one. IIRC you have plenty of rifles already that would be more effective out to 400yds than a 338-06 anyway.

I don't know but I've had both and ended up trading the 338-06 off for one of my 9,3x62's. For me it's just a better round. Neither is a 400yd round but close in the 9,3x62 is a better one. With decent handloads you can load the 9,3x62 with 250gr TSX's to over 2600fps and stay under 60k psi (you won't find the data in a book but I can direct you to it).

The 338-06 I had would shoot 210gr bullets over 2700fps with factory loads but they were so hot the primers fell out of the factory rounds and jammed up the action! Maybe some more experienced 338-06 loaders can give better data but I thought 2700 was about the upper limit for 210gr bullets with safe loads (correct me if I'm wrong here). I'd rather have a 250gr bullet at 2650 than a 210gr at 2700.

Anyway, off the subject. I'm sure the 338-06 is a good round and maybe you should go ahead and make you one. But one of these days you REALLY need to try a 9,3x62!

Your bud...........David

I've never owned a 338-06 but it is not my idea of a 400 yard rifle. Aside from that, with like bullets, or once a killing velocity is met, the bigger, heavier bullet will kill better.
This is why folks hunting Cape Buffalo seldom use a .243 and such more than once.

Oh come on, you already know the answers to this
age old question. Sure the bigger bullets kill
better but as they get bigger your chance
of making a good shot decreases OR the hunter
becomes more greatly inconvienced ( recoil or
heavier guns etc).
So where does that leave you ? You have to make a compromise and you indicate you have already made good choices.
If your bullet drops a few extra feet at 400
yards, what good does that really do you ?

As a retorical question...what has momentum got to do with it anyway and what do all those darned formula's tell a fellow? Just why do we need these bigger calibers? My humble guess is to shoot heavier bullets to which we can impart more momentum.

I scratch my head and wonder how fast a 100 grain bullet would have to be going to have the same momentum as a 350 grain bullet going 2500FPS?

I am sure that some physics professor would tell you that should one want to shoot thick things that a one would waant a lot of momentum. Physics is a cruel bxtch!

Of course its my opinion that all this extra momemtum is applied into the ground for smaller game so there is really not any difference at all in killing power unless one sticks strickly to solids, and then the bigger hole would drain better. I would venture a guess that a soft point 180 30 twould be not a witt different in effectiveness than a 250 338 soft point provided it was shot into the right spot on sub 500 pound animules.

Good feedback guys--I appreciate it.
Stonecreek, your post helps a lot, and supports what I have held as a general theory--I've killed a lot of big critters with 30 caliber and smaller (down to 6.5) very effectively.

I guess something 'intuitively' tells me that if I ever get to go on the Brown Bear hunt I want to, I will be taking my 330 Dakota or 375 H&H...

DJ, Ray Sendero had mentioned the 9.3x62 and I liked that idea, bullet selection seemed pretty anemic though, although of course you only need one good one IMO....I like your thoughts there, and yeah you are right, my 7 Dakota and several others are really plenty for elk size and smaller out to the 400 mark anyway.
I guess I wish I could build a Dakota on the IV action...I've also been wondering about the 330 Ruger Compact, but have'nt looked into it at all.

Jimmy I think you are right, and I've killed a couple of elk way north of 500lbs, and a couple other critters way north of 500 that dropped like bricks to 30 cal bullets through the ribcages.

Must look at 9.3 more.....

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I've never owned a 338-06 but it is not my idea of a 400 yard rifle.

That 'bout sums it up. Nobody is saying that the 338-06 can't kill elk at 400 yards, they're saying the bullet, a bullet intended for the faster 338 Win mag, might not do what is expected of it.

Don, You might be surprised at how many different bullets there are for the 9,3x62. 250gr TSX, 250 Accubond, 286 Partition, 286gr TSX, 286gr Swift etc. etc.. Both Federal and Hornady have announced new loads for it.

A buddy of mine made 22 1 shot kills in africa with the 250gr "X" bullet at about 2650 (I have the rifle now ) and haven't really gone much past that load even though the 286's have shot really well also.

I dunno it might be that my favorite rifle is in that caliber or what but it's a really cool caliber with great Lapua brass and lots of good bullets available for it.

I think you'll love it.................DJ

well, I shot a deer with a 375 h&h 270 gr bullet in the heart. it ran 40-50 yards. My hunting buddy shot his through the lungs with his 30-06 165 gr bullet and it dropped on the spot.

I'm think the larger caliber would show more difference on larger animals but I have no personal proof yet.

I prefer to shoot the larger bullet assuming it will penetrate more than the smaller one at the expected distance.

I also "feel" more comfortable lobbing a larger bullet into bone to break the animal down if necessary. It's just personal preference.

Well, of course a .338 bullet will punch a bigger hole than a .277 at four hundred yards.
I bet though, an identical hit on an elk will prove the same with either bullet size.
400 yards is pushing it though, for either bullet size.
In all my hunting life, I never imagined, nor took a shot at game over 250 yards.
I want a one shot kill. So, I limit my shots
to a range I feel confortable for my shot.
1000,800,or even 500 yard shots are for experts
that want to possibly suffer the loss, or even worse, of game. We have to be realistic.
In my 60 years of hunting and 55+ plus animals,
never had a killing range over 350 yrds.

It isn't needed, but one can notice a big difference in an animal hit squarely with a 338/06 compared to a 30/06 shooting a 150 grainer..

Larger bore also usually means a heavier bullet with a higher sectional density..

I believe in the following steps of importance for "killing power"
1. High sectional density
2. bore diameter
3. velocity..

but most important is having a bullet that is going to perform within those parameters, vs the game one is going after.

My experience with different caliber (270 win, 308 win, 35 Whelen and 375 H&H) on moose, using good bullets, is that the only noticeable effect on varying diameter is that they tend to show that they are hit a bit better with the bigger bullets. With the smaller calibers they walk on like nothing happened but hit with a 375 H&H they at least make a slight change of direction. With a good hit they usually go down at around the 30 meter mark whatever the caliber.

To me it's impossible to tell if they go down faster with either. I'm more concerned with bulletchoice than caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Bore diameter is pretty irrelevant in a hunting bullet assuming that the bullet is properly expanding. ...

Once a person Kills enough Game, they realize Bore Diameter is indeed significant. So is the actual Bullet Weight. And of course using the proper Bullet Design for the Game being Hunted.

Over the long haul:
1. Bigger Kills significantly better than smaller.
2. Faster Kills significantly better than slower.
3. Bigger and Faster Kills the best of all.
-----

If you want a 338-06, then get it. Nothing requires you to keep it forever if you change your mind.

If you look at Reloading Manuals and compare the 338-06 with a 338WinMag, you will notice the Max Loads for the 338-06 are darn near the exact Velocity for the Starting Loads in the 338WinMag. So, you could have a 338-06 equivalent rifle with a 338WinMag, or crank it on up a bit if that seemed prudent.

Best of luck on your choice.

Isn't that strange. HC has hit on the reason the magnums came into being. (I'm sure he knew it all the time. ) Bigger and faster. A bigger bullet at a faster speed. NOT some weeny-assed bullet at warp speed to impress the non shooters around the water cooler at work.

To really draw any quantifiable benefit due to an increase in bore diameter you would have to isolate bore diameter as the only variable in the comparison. In other words, the two bullets being compared must only differ in bore size. They would have to have the same design construction(there's a catch here), momentum, energy and ballistic coefficient. On top of that they would have to hit the same animal in the same place under the same conditions in order to isolate the effect of bore diameter alone.

It's pretty safe to say that such a controlled comparison is not feasibly possible.

It's often correct to believe that the larger bore size bullet with a higher momentum and energy will result in a larger wound channel than a smaller bore size with less momentum and energy. But differing bullet designs can certainly cause exceptions! Even something as seemingly minor as a diameter change is in fact a design change. Certain bullet styles simply don't perform as well when scaled above a certain diameter. The opposite is also true. IE. Some styles don't work as well in the smaller versions.

In conclusion, the larger bore diameter has the best potential to outperform the smaller bore under the following conditions: It has more momentum, more energy and an appropriately designed bullet.

The bigger game we want to shoot with smaller calibers, the more hightech the bulletdesign has to become...
A classic 8 or 10 borerifle does it with lowtech bullets...

The answer for 400 yd. game shooting is to move in to 300yds. or less.

S.D. is way over rated in killing power. There I said it.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
The bigger game we want to shoot with smaller calibers, the more hightech the bulletdesign has to become...

Actually, I see it a bit differently. I think now we can shoot big bores much more easily thanks to super lightweight designs. The 0.338" for example now has Barnes 160 and 185 gr projectiles ... which makes the 'little' 338Federal quite an effective bigger game killer. We can have larger bore size and penetration irrespective of SD and not be kicked hard if sensitive to recoil.

In my opinion, larger bores will in general kill 'better' for a few reasons on soft skinned game. Firstly (and using extremes for effect), it's harder to pick a bad bullet in 458cal compared to 270cal ... what we consider a failure in 270cal will often (not always) still stop an animal in 45cal. Secondly, the larger bores when used with appropriate projectiles give you a better guarantee of penetration on a raking shot. Whilst a 150gr TSX from a 270cal may drive deep enough on a raking shot, I can probably do the same with a more conventional 45cal projectile or guarantee complete penetration from any angle using a 45cal TSX.

The most effective compromise for me personally has been the 35cal (350RemMag/35Whelen/358Win)... bigger bore, adequate weight, wont kick you into next week from any field positions, flat enough trajectory over sensible ranges.
Cheers...
Con

Just as there is no substitute for cubic inches in a cartridge case, there is no substitute for cross-sectional area or mass in a bullet.

Very interesting intel...I am thinking for 400 yard performance I'll use one of my existing rigs that has proven itself at that distance, 30 cal is the largest bore diameter in those...

And I'm really warming up to the 9.3x62 thing...

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
...I'm really warming up to the 9.3x62 thing...

You should. It is "ALMOST" as good as a 35cal.

All I can say is that that the Deer I shot with a .350 Rem Mag (200gr. bullet at 2800 fps) were hit and dead a whole lot faster than a .257 Roberts (117gr. bullet at 2850 fps).

I am a big caliber fan but also believe in velocity. I think the .338-06 comes up a bit short on velocity. I would prefer a .358 Norma Magnum or .358 STA for your work.

John Taylor did this 70 years ago. Buy a copy of his books.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
.....

I want to have a rig that is effective to 400 yards,on Elk size game. .....

Don,

On the other thread, I didn't answer your last post question because of the repeated "400 yard" stipulation. I think you need to plan on getting within 250 yards for elk!

Ray, understood. I am thinking based on the lack of velocity to open up a 33806 driven bullet, I'll look at doing something different with this rig....I was just looking to add something fresh to the battery, and I have the '06 length rig. I would ALWAYS get to 250 over 400 if doable, I had just hoped to have a little bigger diameter rig that would perform on elk size game out to 400 with the action I have....don't know if any of the 35 cal's mentioned will do that and function in this action. I've got a 7mm Dakota, a 330 Dakota, but the 330 Dakota is a heavy beast--not for chasing elk around weight...I am not recoil shy but I think it is becoming evident that going above 30 Cal in an '06 length action will not give you a cartridge that will generate enough velocity to open the bullets for them at 400 yards.

I like your original idea of the 9.3 x 62 a lot, and DJ has some good insight about other rigs in my battery being better for the 400 yard shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I am a big caliber fan but also believe in velocity. I think the .338-06 comes up a bit short on velocity. I would prefer a .358 Norma Magnum or .358 STA for your work.

Can either be built on the Sako 75 '06 length action??

HC, do you like those two 35 caliber options?

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
HC, do you like those two 35 caliber options?

Oh yes! A long time ago in Handloader when I was taking it, they had a write-up about the 358STA. For some reason I kept that magazine for a very long time. Eventually "PHurley" was looking for Load Data and I sent him a copy. He probably has more actual rounds through one(on Targets and Game) than anyone I know. So, he would be the guy to ask about them.
-----

I just don't know anything about the 9.3x62 other than there are not as many Bullets for it as there is for the 35cals. That is not necessarily bad - unless - your particular rifle happens to dislike the ones you can find. Seems like a lot of folks speak well of that Cartridge though.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a true 35cal that I do not like. From the 38Spl and up, they all have their place.

So, if I was "stuck with" a Sako , I'd consider it Trade Bait and get a real rifle. That said, the Sakos have some unique Re-Barrel tricks which need a skilled Gun Smith. I know one fellow who had a Sako rebarrelled by "Malm/WestPac" and he is extremely happy with it. If you are determined to keep it, then a 35Whe is another option. I have a 350RemMag and the 35Whe will handle 250gr Bullets better than it does due to the Action Length.

None of that means you should not get the 338-06. I used to want 22Hornets. Took me 35 years to get them out of my system.

Best of luck on whatever direction you go.

quote:

I scratch my head and wonder how fast a 100 grain bullet would have to be going to have the same momentum as a 350 grain bullet going 2500FPS?

8750 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Ray, understood. I am thinking based on the lack of velocity to open up a 33806 driven bullet, I'll look at doing something different with this rig....I was just looking to add something fresh to the battery, and I have the '06 length rig. I would ALWAYS get to 250 over 400 if doable, I had just hoped to have a little bigger diameter rig that would perform on elk size game out to 400 with the action I have....don't know if any of the 35 cal's mentioned will do that and function in this action. I've got a 7mm Dakota, a 330 Dakota, but the 330 Dakota is a heavy beast--not for chasing elk around weight...I am not recoil shy but I think it is becoming evident that going above 30 Cal in an '06 length action will not give you a cartridge that will generate enough velocity to open the bullets for them at 400 yards.

I like your original idea of the 9.3 x 62 a lot, and DJ has some good insight about other rigs in my battery being better for the 400 yard shot.

Don, I just don't have an answer. Think your looking for a "free lunch" when its just not there!

That 330 Dak will do what your asking, but you also seem to have found the trade-off between rifle weight, recoil, velocity, big bullets and trajectory.

Good luck - I hope you do find an answer, but I'm not holding my breath.

The .358 Norma Magnum is a fantastic '06 length cartridge and would fit length wise no problem. The Norma has a .532" diameter head as opposed to the .473" of an '06. I don't know anything about opening the bolt face on a Sako.

The .358 STA is fabulous, but it is a .375 H&H/8mm Remington Magnum length cartridge too long for your action without additional modifications.

Velocities are too slow for the 9.3x62 for your application.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

Think your looking for a "free lunch" when its just not there!

That 330 Dak will do what your asking, but you also seem to have found the trade-off between rifle weight, recoil, velocity, big bullets and trajectory.

Good luck - I hope you do find an answer, but I'm not holding my breath.

Good point Ray, I may be looking for at least a 'discounted' lunch!

I know Dakota designed their line of cartridges to function in an '06, it just seems the bolt face on the Sako's I like won't accomodate the case head. I think I need to look for a different action that I will like and build a lighter weight 330 Dakota...I'm gonna brainstorm on that some.

Buliwyf, you are right about the velocities being to slow, I think that I may build a 9.3x62 just cause I know how picky Ray and DJ are, so if they like it, it's gotta be good, and I certainly do a lot of hunting where a shot will hardly ever exceed 200 yards, and a quick kill is important!

Wish I was working right now, it would be a lot easier to justify 'hunting' for new rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I just don't know anything about the 9.3x62 other than there are not as many Bullets for it as there is for the 35cals. That is not necessarily bad - unless - your particular rifle happens to dislike the ones you can find. Seems like a lot of folks speak well of that Cartridge though.

There's actually a lot more bullets for the 9,3x62 than you might think. And most of then are extremely good hunting bullets. Yea there's no cheap pistol bullets for reduced loads but there's quite a few superb quality hunting bullets available from several manufacturers.................dj

quote:

For example, would you rather have a 270 caliber bullet at whatever would be typical velocity at 400 yards, or a 338 caliber at minimum type velocities--meaning in this case whatever would be typical of a 338-06 at 400 yards??

For elk size game, I would choose the 338-06 every time. The farthest I have killed and elk with the 338-06 is 275 yards.

The farthest I have killed a deer with my 338-06 is 315 yards.

Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther, and shot placement trumps everything.

guys, seriously? a .458 bullet won't do the damage that a 7 will? in what universe?
.284 x 1.5 = .426
a 45 caliber SOLID starts out with more "cross section" than that ...

Now, take SD into the picture, and you are then comparing a 150gr .284 to a 400gr .458--- assuming equally good bullet construction, that light weight .458 will open to 1.5 times, too .. resulting in a .687 diameter bullet.

i **HAVE** taken game with lots of big bores, and a well placed shot kills better, with less meat loss, everytime

I don't consider 400 yards to be hunting, and if i where to PLAN for shooting animals at 400 yards, I would use the highest SD bullet I could at 3000 +- fps, in a semi tectical rig. But, all that being said, if you know your bullet drop, there's no PRACTICAL difference in a .284-.338 cartridge ..

If you like the 338-06 (and who doesn't) build one!