Remington seeks financing to file for bankruptcy

10 February 2018, 16:38

jeffeosso

over-extended during the fear phase from 2008-2016 -- rem, winchester, colt, browning, SW... etc etc etc ... all of them have gone through this process, repeatedly -- never fear, the assets are good, and they'll restructure their debt, and literally never miss a beat

sales down 27%, resulting in a stipulated 28 million loss, as they aren't public, we have no way of "knowing" how that is structured --if this is even remotely boring to you, then you are either a: a bored M&A person, or b: can't be bothered with these kinda cool details -- they aren't seeking liquidation, which is what most people assume bankruptcy is, they are in the position that they are asking their creditors to restructure the debt -- some combination of principle, time, and/or rate --

basically, they've over extended, didn't plan the retraction of a GOP president well, and have exceeded their 91 day ability to get "corporate paper" loans ..

cerberbus could bail them out, which is telling that they aren't, at this stage, as that's a message that they feel rem can sort this out with the banks.

but, seriously, how many AR platforms does freedom / rem actually need?

10 February 2018, 17:58

Brian564

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
rem, winchester, colt, browning, SW... etc etc etc ... all of them have gone through this process

Can you give more information about Browning's bankruptcy? I never heard of it or thought it happened since it's one of the biggest and most secure firearms manufacturers.

10 February 2018, 18:48

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Brian564:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
rem, winchester, colt, browning, SW... etc etc etc ... all of them have gone through this process

Can you give more information about Browning's bankruptcy? I never heard of it or thought it happened since it's one of the biggest and most secure firearms manufacturers.

you mean, of course, FN herstal, who owns browning, right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Arms_Company

10 February 2018, 19:37

Grizzly Adams

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Obviously I live a sheltered life. When I was a boy companies went bankrupt because they couldn't find finance.

Notwithstanding all the factors mentioned in the article, it amazes me that the fortunes of US gunmakers are so tenuous while European ones manage to carry on.

It's that fixation with growth and keeping the share holders happy at the expense of good business practice. Not confined to the gun business either. Who'd a thought the automotive industry could go tits up en mass ?

Grizz

10 February 2018, 20:12

jeffeosso

In this case, the "shareholders" is cerberus, group - not publicly traded .. which, btw, is actually harder to work for than a public company --

10 February 2018, 20:51

skl1

I'm not very sophisticated with regard to corporate finance, but I'm amazed at bad long-term decisions various companies I've worked for will make to:

1) Make quarterly sales and revenue numbers
2) Keep Margin %age numbers artificially high

I've wondered if the Europeans, with more private companies, avoid some of these issues and have more stability. For instance, my companies keep outsourcing tech support, code writing, HW manufacturing, etc. Three companies in a row have done this. Each dies and is then acquired by a new company that can't wait to do the same thing. In all cases it's caused huge problems and typically big retraction in top line growth trailing about 18 months, but it had an attractive short-term gross margin effect that the C level guys (leaving in 18 months) wanted. Stock still stayed in the toilet, but...

Meanwhile, our (private) European competitors kept high level of support in-house, making money, albeit at maybe 6% GM (which would dilute GM numbers if they were reporting publicly). And they grew market share. No wild layoffs each quarter either. Not sure how we could re-import this structure to US companies. Don't think we can. I think you just need to quit being in sales or engineering and move to finance. Harder to do after 50 though.

10 February 2018, 20:53

Brian564

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:

you mean, of course, FN herstal, who owns browning, right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Arms_Company

Yes, please provide information or links regarding bankruptcy of the company.

10 February 2018, 21:58

Saeed

Very sad to hear this.

But, I have noticed a definite decline in quality of many of these companies.

Sometimes they have tried to offers cheaper products which are basically rubbish.

May be the have tried offering far too many models??

I have seen this happen to computer companies.

SONY stopped making laptops.

They had some of the best laptops around, I have used many of their top line, and never had a problem.
At one stage they I think over 50 different models???

Now I am using Dell, and every single one I have had, had a problem!!!

I wish Remington all the best.

10 February 2018, 22:27

john c.

ask somebody who has a REMLIN how good their products are. u might even learn some new words. none of which you can say in church.

10 February 2018, 23:05

dgr416

Remington lost me when they made the 770 junk replacement for the 700.They made junk for Wal-Mart bad ruined Remington .

11 February 2018, 03:04

SlamFire

quote:
I'm not very sophisticated with regard to corporate finance, but I'm amazed at bad long-term decisions various companies I've worked for will make to:

1) Make quarterly sales and revenue numbers
2) Keep Margin %age numbers artificially high

An excellent read into the personality of the Corporation, and why they act as they do, is the book

The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power https://www.amazon.com/Corpora...-Power/dp/0743247469

The book has been out there 12 years, and it is easy to find reviews:
https://philosophynow.org/issu..._Power_by_Joel_Bakan
http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/re..._Power_by_Joel_Bakan

Basically, the Corporation is a "now" creature. Only interested in satisfied in meeting its needs now, devil take the future and the world. Corporations are grandiose, self centered, manipulative, shameless, amoral, considers its employees, the world, as disposal for its goals, and you can only have a master/slave relationship with one. There are a more characteristics that the 2005 book explores, and we have seen all of them since the great recession of 2008, but by and large, once you understand the personality of the Corporation, their actions become understandable.

Like any large Corporation, Cerebus has been betting on both sides of the political divide. They gave campaign money to Hillary Clinton, the DNC and Republicans! They place their bets on the table, covering all colors and numbers.

https://www.opensecrets.org/or...e=2016&id=D000021907

I predict that Cerebus and the gun companies will now go to the States they have factories located, and get Government bail outs. States are directly subsidizing Corporations, hundreds of millions of dollars. We know that Alabama gave $69 million to Remington to relocate, and that is the traceable subsidizes, there are probably more that the State and local Governments are hiding.

http://www.al.com/business/ind...ive_offer_to_re.html

So, don't cry for Remington, they are not going away, they are too big to fail.

11 February 2018, 03:31

PD999

quote:
Originally posted by SlamFire:
... they are too big to fail.

I heard the same thing about the banking sector a decade ago

11 February 2018, 11:46

sambarman338

Remington’s sales have declined in part because of receding fears that guns will become more heavily regulated by the U.S. government, according to credit ratings agencies. President Donald Trump has said he will “never, ever infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.”

This is the kind of counter-intuitive stuff that caused the stock market correction last week, where seemingly good news suddenly becomes bad news.

The worst words I saw in that report were private equity. The experience we've had with private equity firms has been shameful.

As a rule of thumb, never buy shares in a company refloated by private equity - it is like a bag of flour that weevils have been through - the value is gone; what's left is mostly crap.

11 February 2018, 12:17

Cougarz

quote:
Originally posted by john c.:
ask somebody who has a REMLIN how good their products are. u might even learn some new words. none of which you can say in church.

Exactly.

Remington and Marlin's quality slipped badly since the were acquired by Cerebus. The mantra went from build good products at a fair price to maximize the profits at any cost. Unfortunately it was the American business model at the time and many businesses suffered similar problems. Some failed and others restructured in the end.

This is one of the reasons American companies started off shoring work in order to lower their manufacturing costs. In at least the more complex higher technology companies they found they lost control over their product quality, had to rework many parts before assembly and in the end were forced to bring back work to a higher skilled but more expensive workforce back at home to survive. At least the smart ones did.

Remington almost over night went from one of the best selling bolt action rifles made to something nobody wanted. Hopefully they can get their act together and survive. But as the saying goes, it takes years to build a reputation and seconds to lose it.

11 February 2018, 20:04

PD999

quote:
Originally posted by Cougarz:
But as the saying goes, it takes years to build a reputation and seconds to lose it.

Not to go off topic, that's what Oxfam is going through right now

12 February 2018, 11:06

JustinL01

quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Remington’s sales have declined in part because of receding fears that guns will become more heavily regulated by the U.S. government, according to credit ratings agencies. President Donald Trump has said he will “never, ever infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.”

This is the kind of counter-intuitive stuff that caused the stock market correction last week, where seemingly good news suddenly becomes bad news.

The worst words I saw in that report were private equity. The experience we've had with private equity firms has been shameful.

As a rule of thumb, never buy shares in a company refloated by private equity - it is like a bag of flour that weevils have been through - the value is gone; what's left is mostly crap.

Unfortunately that is all too true, a local gun store near me was always busy, after Trump won the election, they have slowed down tremendously. I can’t say politics has affected my gun buying, other than when other people’s panic buying had depleted supplies, but I suppose that’s the world we live in today.

I’ve noticed a decline in quality in the last 5-10 years, too, but Remington still makes my favorite rifles. I’ve got to wonder- what have they changed to make production cheaper, and if they didn’t do it, how much would a Model 700 cost today? They sure haven’t lowered the price from year to year...

12 February 2018, 18:57

AnotherAZWriter

quote:
Originally posted by JustinL01:
quote:
Originally posted by sambarman338:
Remington’s sales have declined in part because of receding fears that guns will become more heavily regulated by the U.S. government, according to credit ratings agencies. President Donald Trump has said he will “never, ever infringe on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.”

This is the kind of counter-intuitive stuff that caused the stock market correction last week, where seemingly good news suddenly becomes bad news.

The worst words I saw in that report were private equity. The experience we've had with private equity firms has been shameful.

As a rule of thumb, never buy shares in a company refloated by private equity - it is like a bag of flour that weevils have been through - the value is gone; what's left is mostly crap.

Unfortunately that is all too true, a local gun store near me was always busy, after Trump won the election, they have slowed down tremendously. I can’t say politics has affected my gun buying, other than when other people’s panic buying had depleted supplies, but I suppose that’s the world we live in today.

I’ve noticed a decline in quality in the last 5-10 years, too, but Remington still makes my favorite rifles. I’ve got to wonder- what have they changed to make production cheaper, and if they didn’t do it, how much would a Model 700 cost today? They sure haven’t lowered the price from year to year...

Remington used to be the most accurate out of the box rifle; I have a ton of them, but what I really liked is that I could bed them myself and always get them to shoot. However, other guns are now much more accurate; Browning and Savage, for example. Savage is simply stunning. Remington hasn't really done anything to improve the 700s performance.

These days when I want an accurate rifle, I just have my gunsmith build them using a custom action, high quality bbl, and McM stock. Worth the time and effort.

12 February 2018, 20:48

ALF

I was boo'd off the stage when I dared ask the question what was going on at Ruger ! Now Remington ?

Fact is market analysts have been commenting that there is a downturn affecting all of the US gun manufacturing sector. Not just Ruger and now Remington.

It does not take a Rocket scientist to see what is happening around us.

The big name shooting / hunting stores are struggling !

Smaller single proprietor operations are shutting down ! Owners are lamenting that they cannot sell their operations when they want to retire, they cannot find reliable staff to work in them and above all the demand cycle ( those entering the buying market vs those who drop off at the end) is simply not there.

Rod and gun clubs with their ranges are shutting down and sports like trap has seen a huge decline with many clubs ceasing operations.

New age kids ( millennials) are not entering the hunting/ shooting market at all, hell they are not even getting their drivers licences in the big cities !

13 February 2018, 02:55

AnotherAZWriter

quote:

New age kids ( millennials) are not entering the hunting/ shooting market at all, hell they are not even getting their drivers licences in the big cities !

WSJ had a story some months ago that kids today are maturing far slower than in the past, to include having sex later in life (probably a good thing), drinking later (probably a good thing), living at home with mommmy far longer (not good), and not learning to drive (fear?).

The story quoted one or two sources that have concluded that "helicopter" parents are raising a bunch of kids afraid to take chances. For all the hoopla we hear about young kids starting businesses, business formation from young entrepreneurs is at a record low.

13 February 2018, 05:54

larryshores

This is something that happens all too often when private equity is involved.

13 February 2018, 05:57

Charlie P.(NY)

quote:
Originally posted by Cougarz:
quote:
Originally posted by john c.:
ask somebody who has a REMLIN how good their products are. u might even learn some new words. none of which you can say in church.

Exactly.

Remington and Marlin's quality slipped badly since the were acquired by Cerebus.

Sadly, that is so. I live in NY (had relatives who lived in Illion) and it hurts to see ANY firearm manufacturer fail.

But Remington has made some bonehead moves and products lately.

They always seem to introduce a new cartridge in the wrong twist. Their pistols are garbage.

I have an 1889 and 1894 shotgun of theirs, a M12 pump .22 LR (octaginal bbl & curved stock) that was the first firearm I ever shot, and a M11-87 that has some hard miles on it and is a 100% reliable shotgun. But the last smart thing they did was the M788, and they discontinued that in 1983.

But 205 years is a good run for any company. Still, it's sad.

13 February 2018, 07:03

just say moe

Remington was late to the Obama/Hillary rush that featured Black rifles and CCW pistols. Not much of a rush for bolt action 30-06's. Their first try at a 9mm pistol failed miserably - during this time, everybody else was selling them faster than they could make them!

13 February 2018, 07:38

Atkinson

See there, I been telling you honkers that pushfeeds just don't sell!!

13 February 2018, 08:07

Beretta682E

A good background piece

http://nymag.com/daily/intelli...g-a-guns-empire.html

I will check with my distressed crew who is playing in the distressed debt.

Very likely Cerberus pulled out its capital via dividends and corporate management fees and let the last bond holders with melting ice cube.

Mike

13 February 2018, 09:00

LHeym500

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
A good background piece

http://nymag.com/daily/intelli...g-a-guns-empire.html

I will check with my distressed crew who is playing in the distressed debt.

Very likely Cerberus pulled out its capital via dividends and corporate management fees and let the last bond holders with melting ice cube.

Mike

I have little use for authors who call semi-automatic AR15s assault rifles, and the Remington trigger issue predates Freedom Group.

Two things I find interesting is how does a company staffed with so many x-military guys allow so much junk out the door. On that same thread the article hints at purposely designed flaws. I guess the idea was for guns to wear out so you would need to np us more.

Second, I think the other publicly traded companies doing better line refers to Ruger, but this is just a guess on my part. I find it odd Ruger was publicly traded and it’s bottom line not damaged by the Sandy Hook like episodes while Freesom/Cyphers was.

A third point, I agree that the firearms positioning of the Modern Sporting Rifle was nothing more than an industry cover to sell these weapons and position such weapons under Justice Scilia’s attempt to distinguish Heller and McDonald from Miller.

Not saying any of that was bad, but it was disingenuous marketing. I fully appreciate that arms development that I enjoy as a private citizen follows military development and always has.

13 February 2018, 10:13

Gustavo

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
I was boo'd off the stage when I dared ask the question what was going on at Ruger ! Now Remington ?

Fact is market analysts have been commenting that there is a downturn affecting all of the US gun manufacturing sector. Not just Ruger and now Remington.

It does not take a Rocket scientist to see what is happening around us.

The big name shooting / hunting stores are struggling !

Smaller single proprietor operations are shutting down ! Owners are lamenting that they cannot sell their operations when they want to retire, they cannot find reliable staff to work in them and above all the demand cycle ( those entering the buying market vs those who drop off at the end) is simply not there.

Rod and gun clubs with their ranges are shutting down and sports like trap has seen a huge decline with many clubs ceasing operations.

New age kids ( millennials) are not entering the hunting/ shooting market at all, hell they are not even getting their drivers licences in the big cities !

Wise words and analysis!

14 February 2018, 09:30

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
A good background piece

http://nymag.com/daily/intelli...g-a-guns-empire.html

I will check with my distressed crew who is playing in the distressed debt.

Very likely Cerberus pulled out its capital via dividends and corporate management fees and let the last bond holders with melting ice cube.

Mike

I have little use for authors who call semi-automatic AR15s assault rifles, and the Remington trigger issue predates Freedom Group.

Two things I find interesting is how does a company staffed with so many x-military guys allow so much junk out the door. On that same thread the article hints at purposely designed flaws. I guess the idea was for guns to wear out so you would need to np us more.

Second, I think the other publicly traded companies doing better line refers to Ruger, but this is just a guess on my part. I find it odd Ruger was publicly traded and it’s bottom line not damaged by the Sandy Hook like episodes while Freesom/Cyphers was.

A third point, I agree that the firearms positioning of the Modern Sporting Rifle was nothing more than an industry cover to sell these weapons and position such weapons under Justice Scilia’s attempt to distinguish Heller and McDonald from Miller.

Not saying any of that was bad, but it was disingenuous marketing. I fully appreciate that arms development that I enjoy as a private citizen follows military development and always has.

One can argue what is a assault rifle. Here is a sbr I own https://danieldefense.com/fire...e-mk18-mil-spec.html

It is sold and marketed as a assault rifle. Experts like Larry Vickers thinks they are assault rifles.

Remington and the whole Cerberus platform did not have a pistol portfolio company. The rumor was they would buy smith and Wesson when it was going thru it’s regular management blow ups.

Revolvers are near impossible to copy or replicate - manufacture is too skill based.

Pistol have patent protection.

Ar platform got commoditized - but Cerberus did Not control the component manufactures (other pe guys did).

Remington rolled up hunting rifles - you know the nice steel and wood ones everyone on ar loves - Remington, marlin, Dakota, Barnes - dead commercial products.

Also Cerberus core investors (state pension funds) don’t want to own gun companies.

Gun business is a tactical rifle, pistol and new product (precision rifles etc).

The new hunting rifle has become $400-$600 bolt market. Ruger, mosbergm savage on to Mauser and Sauer supply it.

Scopes are going same way - we are saved by a European hunting market to have high end scopes. Otherwise quality Chinese made tactical stuff.

Cerberus guys were not stupid. They know finance, roll ups, leverage, distressed, turnaround and guns as well as anyone. They wisely took capital out and rolled an option that got killed alongside 26 incident people at sandy hook.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2...estment-in-firearms/

Mike

14 February 2018, 18:44

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
A good background piece

http://nymag.com/daily/intelli...g-a-guns-empire.html

I will check with my distressed crew who is playing in the distressed debt.

Very likely Cerberus pulled out its capital via dividends and corporate management fees and let the last bond holders with melting ice cube.

Mike

I have little use for authors who call semi-automatic AR15s assault rifles, and the Remington trigger issue predates Freedom Group.

Two things I find interesting is how does a company staffed with so many x-military guys allow so much junk out the door. On that same thread the article hints at purposely designed flaws. I guess the idea was for guns to wear out so you would need to np us more.

Second, I think the other publicly traded companies doing better line refers to Ruger, but this is just a guess on my part. I find it odd Ruger was publicly traded and it’s bottom line not damaged by the Sandy Hook like episodes while Freesom/Cyphers was.

A third point, I agree that the firearms positioning of the Modern Sporting Rifle was nothing more than an industry cover to sell these weapons and position such weapons under Justice Scilia’s attempt to distinguish Heller and McDonald from Miller.

Not saying any of that was bad, but it was disingenuous marketing. I fully appreciate that arms development that I enjoy as a private citizen follows military development and always has.

One can argue what is a assault rifle. Here is a sbr I own https://danieldefense.com/fire...e-mk18-mil-spec.html

It is sold and marketed as a assault rifle. Experts like Larry Vickers thinks they are assault rifles.

Remington and the whole Cerberus platform did not have a pistol portfolio company. The rumor was they would buy smith and Wesson when it was going thru it’s regular management blow ups.

Revolvers are near impossible to copy or replicate - manufacture is too skill based.

Pistol have patent protection.

Ar platform got commoditized - but Cerberus did Not control the component manufactures (other pe guys did).

Remington rolled up hunting rifles - you know the nice steel and wood ones everyone on ar loves - Remington, marlin, Dakota, Barnes - dead commercial products.

Also Cerberus core investors (state pension funds) don’t want to own gun companies.

Gun business is a tactical rifle, pistol and new product (precision rifles etc).

The new hunting rifle has become $400-$600 bolt market. Ruger, mosbergm savage on to Mauser and Sauer supply it.

Scopes are going same way - we are saved by a European hunting market to have high end scopes. Otherwise quality Chinese made tactical stuff.

Cerberus guys were not stupid. They know finance, roll ups, leverage, distressed, turnaround and guns as well as anyone. They wisely took capital out and rolled an option that got killed alongside 26 innocent people at sandy hook.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2...estment-in-firearms/

Mike

14 February 2018, 19:09

LHeym500

However, Remington thru Freedom Group was the first of the majors to offer a civilian, mass marketed semi automatic AR 15.

They were first in the market. Remington was not last to the AR millinal market. They helped start the market. Similar to Savage with cheap bolt actions.

At least Freedom/Cerberus finally fixed the 700 trigger Took them 2 tries, but they did it.

Legally a sbr is a registered firearm. Semi Automatic AR 15 of normal barrel length are not registered, regulated instruments of war. The closests example to the semi auto AR 15 is the lever action of the 19th century. Fine for whatever needs shot no too big and not too far away.

I do not doubt the cooperate raiding idea. But it is wrong to say Remington was late to the black rifle revolution.