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Was helping my nephew set up his 308 Win Browning X-bolt and had a box of 150 grn Norma Soft Points that were supposed to produce 2822 fps from a 23.6 inch bbl The X-bolt has a 22 inch bbl so knock off say 45 fps so was expecting velocity in the 2775 range. Ammo shot great a 3/4 inch grp at 100 but velocity was a paltry 2650 fps for the 5 shot avg. So you might think that "oh slow bbl" but the same rifle shot Fed Nat'l Match right within spec. What has been other people's experience with factory ammunition velocity specifications. Mike  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Several years back I tested some Norma 150 grain in my 7x57 with a 22" barrel and found superb accuracy but, the chronoed velocity was 2657 fps from the advertised velocity of 2755 fps. Perhaps Norma was using a 26" test barrel which would gain about 100 fps over my 22". Remington 140 CL produced 2613 fps while Privi 140 was 2608. | |||
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My experience with Norma ammunition in several different cartridges, has been that the velocity for some were close to or even exceeded their published data, while others fell short. But having said that, I can say I have seen the same thing from factory ammunition produced by lots of other companies. Normally I reload my own ammunition, but I have always had issues with availability when it comes to Norma brass and have had to purchase Norma ammunition. I just had this occur again with a .358 Norma Magnum I recently purchased. Had to buy Norma ammunition loaded with 250 grain A-frames, as I was unable to find new Norma brass anywhere. Haven't run any of those rounds over the chronograph yet however, but I am curious as to what the velocity will be. At least the bullet choice is a good one.  ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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The best why to ruin a great rifle is chronograph it. | |||
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Not complaining about the rifle or even commenting on the rifle...just making an observation on the ammo. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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My 9.3x62 with Norma Oryx 285 gr. ammunition exceeds factory specifications for velocity even though my rifle has a barrel a few cm shorter than standard. My 9.3x74R has a barrel the same length as the 9.3x62, but shoots just a little slower than factory specified velocity. Both of my 30-06 rifles shoot very close to advertised velocity with Norma 180 gr. Alaska and Oryx bullets. My 7x57 shoots a little slower than spec with 154 gr, Oryx, but it only has a 20" barrel. My 7x64 shoots a 50 fps slower than spec with some old Norma 150 gr. PSP, and over 100fps faster than spec. with their 170 gr. Vulcan bullet. All are "close enough" for me. Of all the factory ammunition I have tried and used for hunting, I like Norma Oryx the best. It is very consistent, accurate, and deadly. | |||
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I recently tested a box of Swift A-Frame ammo for the 9.3x62mm. Specs said 2,396 fps from a 24" barrel. My 24" barrel delivered an average MV of 2,290 fps across half the box. | |||
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Mike, Here is something. I was sent 5 identical rifles. Brand new. One make one model. All 270 Winchester. Ammo was Norma 150 grains. Velocity difference between them was over 150 fps???? | |||
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Saeed, Very interesting and a greater data point. I new there were fast barrels and slow barrels but not that the difference would be that big. Mike What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have an identical X-Bolt to your nephew in 7mm WSM, same short action with 22" barrel. Mine wears a suppressor with built in muzzle brake. I don't know what length barrel the factory ammo listed below was used for velocity testing at the factories but in my 7mm WSM the following is achieved. Federal factory ammo with 140gr TBT bullet gives an chronographed average MV of 3230fps (factory advertised 3200fps). Hornady factory ammo with 162gr ELD-X bullet gives 3005fps average MV (factory advertised 3000fps) Winchester factory ammo with 160gr Accubond LR bullet gives 3008fps average MV (factory advertised 3050fps). I must say I was quite surprised with the actual velocity achieved when I chronographed the factory ammo after purchasing the rifle as I was expecting a reasonable velocity drop with the short 22" barrel especially in the short magnum cartridge. Most of the standard length magnums lose velocity quickly when barrels are reduced much below 26". Another experience was decades ago with some of the earliest Remington 7mm-08 ammunition I was using in my newly purchased Ruger M77. Apparently Remington could not produce enough of their 140gr Core Lokt bullets for their initial run of factory ammo so used the Hornady 139gr Spire Point bullet. The advertised MV was 2868fps but this early ammo gave 2968fps a full 100fps MV above factory spec. I chronographed them at the time and double checked to make sure my chronograph was reading correctly. In recent times I came across a couple of these early Remington 7mm-08 rounds and chronographing them again confirmed the very consistent 2968fps MV. Bob Bell, the well known gun writer, also wrote about this same phenomenon when he was doing some testing with the 7mm-08. He too saw the same 2968fps MV with the 139gr loaded factory ammo. I wrote to Remington enquiring as to what loading they were using to achieve this velocity in the 7mm-08 cartridge (pressures were all good, easy extraction and no sign of high pressure on the primers or case). Remington did not reply. | |||
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Saeed, your experience with five nearly identical rifles was very interesting and informative. The closest I can report from my own experience is a difference of 30-50 fps from each barrel of a double barrel rifle. Both my Merkel 140 SxS chambered in .450-400 3" Nitro Express, and my Beretta Silver Sable O/U 9.3x74R record different velocities from each of their barrels - which were obviously produced in the same factory, at the same time, for the same rifle. I don't think it takes much of a variance in bore or chamber dimensions to produce a measurable difference in velocity / pressure. One of the reasons why it's so funny to read over and over again about a reloader who expects to have a recipe given to them by someone else and not be required to work up a load in their own rifle. Too many variables exist to favour that approach. May I also suggest, with the utmost respect, that factory ammunition velocity specifications are approximations, and will vary with the firearm they are fired in. | |||
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Sometimes I think the makeup of a specific bullet can have a rather dramatic effect on velocity, depending of course on the rifle as well. | |||
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Factory velocities have always been enthusiastic. With the advent of personal chronographs they have become a bit more accurate. | |||
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As a boy I got the idea that Norma ammo was the bee's knees but, having obtained a chronograph, I'm not so sure now. Though my Sako 338WM seems to have tight dimensions, giving high velocities with moderate handloads, the Norma 230gr factory load only recorded 2586fps, though the box lists it as giving 2756fps. | |||
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I find the Weatherby ammunition for Weatherby calibers (I have a 270 Weatherby and 375 Weatherby) live up to advertised velocities. For my 270 Win and 500 Jeffery I only handload. I chronographed some Federal 270 Win ammo with 150g Partitins that was advertised as 2900 fps when I took ill, but chrono'd 2650. I threw it out, sucked it up and loaded my 270 Win for my son with 150g Partitions at a sedate 2930 fps. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Chucking it out sounds a bit drastic, Chuck. It might have made good practice ammo for off-hand shooting, after which you'd have good, hardly stressed brass | |||
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Just tested the Norma factory 180 grain BondStrike ammo for .30-06. Nominal MV is 2,756 fps. From my 24" barrel the average MV of 6 rounds was 2,630 fps. | |||
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I think the problem is not the ammo. But the rifle barrels! I don’t remember the exact numbers, but years ago we were shooting 22-250 Remington rifles. They carried from 22 inch barrels to 26 inches. We were using hand loads. I know for certain the difference in velocities was over was over 300 fps!!?? Non of us could explain it. | |||
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I only use Remington brass, since my loads are pretty tailored, but good point. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I agree the problem is with the rifle barrels the manufactures use to generate the MVs they then print on the boxes. It's a rare bird if I use factory ammo for hunting, I buy boxes of interesting ammo on occasion for testing purposes. I've no issue with the manufactures using their super-duper test-lab-only barrels for checking their commercial ammo, but I'd like to know just how super-duper their barrels are and the barrel lengths used that generated the MVs they claim they get. | |||
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I have found Norma's Whitetail ammo to be a little slow, but very accurate. | |||
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My experience is the same. I have a 340 and a 7mm, and Norma/Weatherby factory ammo chronos every bit of what they say on the box. To the OP, the solution has to be that specific combination of components in that rifle. If other ammo shoots to spec, and the Norma stuff is slow, I can't think of what else it could be. As well you know, this is why we take up handloading!  _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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I have experienced excellent performance from Norma Tip Strike 160-grain ammo for the 7x65R. Published MV is 2789 FPS. My Oehler chronograph shows 2935 fps from a 24" Krieger barrel on a Fraser action. Group size was 1/2" at 100 yards. Could not ask for better. Roger | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Norma Factory Ammo - Interesting velocities
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