I had goten a barrle blanke from a friend of mine as a gift and was trying to figer out what I could bild off of it.. it is a Pac-Nor Barrle 4 grove 1-10" twist Heavy Palma conture and Super-Match Grade Stainless Steel very nice barrle was shocked when I got it.. But the last 4 days has been spent wondering what should I chamber it in ?? I have a few 308 wins so figerd I would no do that .. then I was thinking of doing a 300 Weatherby mag but remeber how much powder that burns up and did some reserch and like the Idea of a 30/06 Ackley and liked the volicitys and such with out having to burn 84+ grs of powder I will have a 28" barrel legth wich can help in speed but was wondering on how hard it is to make up the brass ?? Can you just fire form it .. like taking a 300 H&H and shooting it in a 300 Weatherby mag ?? or are there certin steps that need to be taken...

I am planing on using this for longer range shooting 300 yards and further it will be used for hunting as well but just think if i can get 3000+ fps out of a 30/06 Ackley and not have to burn so much powder to get it going that fast then lets go that rought.. but if i am having to do neck triming and alot of fire forimg befor the cases are at speck ... then i think i would just go with the 300 Weatherby mag ... have alot of brass for that .. just dont have a action with the right bolt face ...

.308 Norma

I've got a Remington model 30s that has been chambered in the 30-06 Ackley Improved. Properly chambered (mine is) you can fire a standard 30-06 in the Ackley chamber. There is a sliight crush fit at the front of the shoulder by the case neck when doing so. I can chamber a regular 30-06 and without firing, unload the cartridge and I can see a slight ring on the case where the case touches the rifle's chamber.

Is the rechamber worth it? Not really. With what you are looking for, I'd recommend weatherby mag chamber.

waste f time, ruins a perfectly good factory chamber - use rel22 and have identical results

I shoot more AI or Gibbs type wildcats than factory. But, there is no way I'd waste time and $ on a 30-06AI. Don't think Ackley thought much of it either.

it takes more powder to just get it back to the 0-6 speed, then more again to go on from there.
the 0-6 is borderline overbore to begin with so adding more capacity really isn't enough gain to justify the price of the dies
i'd go straight to the 300 H&H.
tight chamber and enjoy.

I own and shoot one, but must agree that it is a looser in many ways.

It's only advantage is with heaver bullets, 3,000 ft/secs with 180's is a real possibility, and with 28" of barrel you would likely exceed that easily.

quote:

3,000 ft/secs with 180's is a real possibility, and with 28" of barrel

I would think you would really have to be pushing it for 3000fps even with a 28"

3000 fps + is easy with the 30-06 AI using Re25, especially using a 28" barrel. Read mine and GSSP's posts on this forum for more info. AIU

I have been picking up 30-06 brass for 2 years now from ranges and have 2 5gallon pails full of misalines 30-06 brass and sme of it is very nice Nosler brass and that is why I was thinking of the Ackley Improved version and my plane was for 168GR + was even thinking of the Burger VLD 190gr thinking 2850-2875fps would be achevabil.. and 3000 or 3000+ with the 168gr..

But I also have 200 Nosler 300 Weatherby mag caes and only 50 have been once fierd the rest are new and the reloading dies for that so that is why I brought up thease 2 options..

What action are you going to build this rifle on? AIU

.30 Gibbs is what you are looking for.

quote:

there is no way I'd waste time and $ on a 30-06AI. Don't think Ackley thought much of it either.

The standard .30-06 is quite a cartridge. Neither the Ackley nor Gibbs was ever very popular simply because there is little ballistic benefit to either.

quote:

is easy with the 30-06 AI using Re25, especially using a 28" barrel

AIU I'll take your word for the fact your can pack enough RL25 behind a 180 to reach 3000. However there is no way anyone will ever convince me I need to carry a 28" barrel on a hunting rifle.

It I really felt I couldn't live without that last 75-100fps going from a 24-28" barrel would give me I'd much rather just start with a larger case.

500mag if you want an AI by all means build one. I happen to prefer the gibbs style. If I'm shooting a wildcat anyway why leave case capacity on the table? The "advantage?" of being able to fire factory with the AI has never been a selling point with me. I've hunted with wildcats for 30yrs and never been without my ammo.

Heck give Bitterroot a shout and he can give you the 30Howell reamer, brass, dies and even ammo.

500:

Another thing about the 30-06 Ackeley improved, is it it is just cool. Heavier bullets and slow powders are the way to go with it. Back in the early 70's there was the same type of argument you see posted here. Who's right? Depends on the receipe of the reload and the bullet weight used. The original intent was to reach the 300 H&H performance level, with a standard action and no belt. Which it did.

Read up on it, and if it grabs you build it. You can't go worng in my opinion, as long as you understand the performance level Ackley intended.

Jerry

I don't have a dog in this fight but! The 30-06 feeds so nice. How well will the AI version feed? I have a .257AI and love it But it sure don't feed as well as the .257 Roberts does. Yes some work on the ramp and such could help I am sure but that is more expense.

I have always read the .257 AI was the most effective of the AI rounds. I also know they are known for accuracy. Not sure I would build the 30-06 version though.

quote:

The original intent was to reach the 300 H&H performance level, with a standard action and no belt. Which it did.

Not at proper pressures it didn't and still won't. Nor will the even larger Gibbs version.

Some people who are "pro" Ackley Imp will claim some pretty impressive velocities out of a long barrel.Maybe they have a "fast " barrel. Several years ago I took a brand new 24 inch stainless barrel chambered in 30-06 and installed it on a mauser 98 action. I worked up a few max loads with 150 thru 180 gr bullets and several powders and chronographed them. I then had the same barrel re-chambered to 30-06 Ackley Imp. Max loads moved up several grs. There was not a single load that increased velocities more than 100 fps above the std 30-06.In most cases 3 or 4 grs of powder yielded about 50to 75 fps more velocity in the Imp version. Hardly earth earth shaking. If you want more velocity than the 30-06 can deliver with safe pressures and don't want to burn 85 grs of powder take a serious look at the 308 Norma or the 30-338. Either will deliver around 3050 fps with 180 gr bullets and about 70 grs of powder from a 24 inch barrel.

quote:

Some people who are "pro" Ackley Imp will claim some pretty impressive velocities out of a long barrel.Maybe they have a "fast " barrel. Several years ago I took a brand new 24 inch stainless barrel chambered in 30-06 and installed it on a mauser 98 action. I worked up a few max loads with 150 thru 180 gr bullets and several powders and chronographed them. I then had the same barrel re-chambered to 30-06 Ackley Imp. Max loads moved up several grs. There was not a single load that increased velocities more than 100 fps above the std 30-06.In most cases 3 or 4 grs of powder yielded about 50to 75 fps more velocity in the Imp version. Hardly earth earth shaking. If you want more velocity than the 30-06 can deliver with safe pressures and don't want to burn 85 grs of powder take a serious look at the 308 Norma or the 30-338. Either will deliver around 3050 fps with 180 gr bullets and about 70 grs of powder from a 24 inch barrel.

Well said. Exactly my finding testing various std and AIs in the same barrel. I happened to have selected the 308Norma over the 300Wmag. Have never second guessed the decision.

As I have said often I shoot more AIs or my own Gibbs style. I happen to like them. Yes I can match or better factory magnums. I can't match or beat my own magnum handloads. Equal pressure equal barrel capacity will win.

500MagMan,

I had my 30-06 AI built in 2006. My Rem 700 custom 30-06 was built in 1982 and had a tooth pick thin barrel. The most I could ever get from it's 22" Mag-na-ported barrel with 180's was about 2750 and that was really pushing it. Plenty of case trimming accompanied the brass when pushing to it's limit. Once the barrel was shot out, I pulled the old barrel and sent it to Dan Lilja so he could copy the contour but make it a 26" SS, 3-groove barrel. I had a former gunsmith who worked at Barnes bullets chamber, thread, crown and screw it on the action. I got my load data from an AR member, "Ackley Improved User". Wow, was able to hit 3100 fps with 180's. I know it wasn't just the extra case capacity. I was compressing upto 71 gr of Rel 25 with Nosler 180 BT/AB's. I backed off to 3000 fps with 68.5 gr in Win cases. I've gotten over 5 loadings per case and still going strong. The cases feed flawlessly through my action. I used Cream of Wheat to fireform my cases.

As far as extra cost. I already had a Forster FL die and their Ultra Micrometer Seater die in 30-06. All I had to do was order the floating insert for the seater die without having to order a whole new die. I did buy a new FL AI die.

Would I do it again? As a newbee to AI cases, yes. Now that I've done it, yes! I like the fact that I can get mag velocities, good cases life and I don't have to trim my cases as much. I hate trimming cases. Even once I backed off from my rifles max, I was still getting 3000 fps and the rifle shoots 1/2 MOA with my best being 4-1/4" @ 818 yds.



I took a nice spike elk here in Utah using the 180 AB Oct of 2007. I can trade back and forth between BT's and AB's.




Oh, and AIU has LOTS of load data. He shared freely with me. Thus my use of Rel 25 which most would not even think to use in this case but it's the BOMB!

Alan

GSSP, nice to see you posting. I recently used by '06AI to kill a mule deer at 515 yds using 165 Accubonds loaded to 3200 fps with 69 grs. of MRP.

Ramrod, do you know Bill Steigers? I've recently had the most enjoyable talk with him regarding bullet design. Do you have any of his Bitterroots around?

Regards, AIU

quote:

Ramrod, do you know Bill Steigers?

I don't remember meeting him.

I'm sure at a loss how you can get 71grs of RL25 in the case along with a 180gr bullet. I show the 30-06AI case to have a water capacity of around 70 grs. Ignoring the bullet 71grs would be 110% density.

"Heck give Bitterroot a shout and he can give you the 30Howell reamer, brass, dies and even ammo."

Who is Bitterroot? Steigers made Bitterroot bullets? AIU

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Ramrod, do you know Bill Steigers?

I don't remember meeting him.

I'm sure at a loss how you can get 71grs of RL25 in the case along with a 180gr bullet. I show the 30-06AI case to have a water capacity of around 70 grs. Ignoring the bullet 71grs would be 110% density.

tapping and compression. R25 compresses quite well.

quote:

tapping and compression. R25 compresses quite well.

You guys have way to much time on your hands.

One of these days I have on my list of things to do to take RL-22 or RL-25 and take my 340PDK and see what a super compressed load will do.

Unlike you guys I'm lazy and don't like to carry extra inches of barrel.

Bitterroot is his AR handle. That would be Wayne(I believe we have never shared first names) He is the one that bought American Hunting Rifles from Ed Plummer. So he has the family of Howell cases. Built with 2.6" 06 based cases. As an example the 300Howell has a water capcity of 78.5grs.

Ram, where do you get 2.6" O6 cases? Regards, AIU

The action I will be using is a is a remington 700 stainles that has had some mods to it the mounting holes are now 8-40 threads and a Lupold MK4 one pics base that has 20 MOA the bolt has been fluted and the bolt handle has been changed out to a tac knob....

GSSP thanks for the info and like your rig that you have looks very cool I am planing on puting on a lupold 4.5-14X40 LR with the Mill-Dot in it...

quote:

Ram, where do you get 2.6" O6 cases

Well my first ones were 06 cylinder brass from Z-hat. They are 2.65" A couple years ago I paid $100/100 now he wants $179.

Last bunch I bought were Howell basic. It is also 2.65" cylinder brass with the 06 head. He says Howell basic. It is around $90/100. Or you can go with one of the Howell calibers whtat is 2.6" and simply run it in your sizing die. The Howell cases have the shoulder forward much like a Gibbs case.

quote:

Originally posted by 500MagMan:
GSSP thanks for the info and like your rig that you have looks very cool I am planing on puting on a lupold 4.5-14X40 LR with the Mill-Dot in it...

I truly love Leupold scopes but for the LR stuff, I prefer NightForce and others that keep things either MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA. IMO, Leupold is REALLY missing the idea that mixing a MIL reticle with an MOA turret is totally contrary to the KISS principle! If they would do that simple little thing I could save a ton of money by buying their scopes instead of NF and I'm a NF dealer!

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
[QUOTE]I'm sure at a loss how you can get 71grs of RL25 in the case along with a 180gr bullet. I show the 30-06AI case to have a water capacity of around 70 grs. Ignoring the bullet 71grs would be 110% density.

Slowly sprinkling in the powder via a long drop tube and tapping the case is what it takes. When AIU first started communicating with me about using Rel 25 in the 06-AI case I was optamistically cautious. I called Hodgdon, talked to a reloading tech and without mentioning calibers, bullets, powders asked about compressing a powder that basically came to the mouth of the case. I didn't want a knee jerk answer without his really thinking through the answer. When he did reply he agreed that it could be done as long as....

1. When compressing the powder, you don't stick something into the case and start tapping, banging, hitting and ramming down the powder because breaking and crushing the kernels is counter productive to consistent burning.

2. Using the bullet, via normal seating, to compress the powder is what is desired.

3. Make sure the powder used, is slow enough that one does not cause an over pressure situation. (Rel 25 is plenty slow enough. Basically, with 180's, you can't get enough powder into the case to your yourself).

Also, a bit more neck tension, IME, is needed otherwise the compressed bullet can extrude the bullet forward.

Alan

IIRC Paul B was the first to suggest RL25 in the 06AI. I used it with excellent accuracy results with 180gr and 200gr AB's.

My problem was getting the upper limits of powder in the case....i tapped my brains out but couldn't seem to get it right.

Mine also likes IMR4350 quite well.

But, mine will shoot 165's 5 shot MOA but I cannot get em better. 180 and 200gr I'm usually hovering at the .5 to .7 mark.

Does yours seem to like heavier bullets as well????? Mine is a 1/10twist.

Biscuit,

Have only shot 180's. AIU has shot the other weights.

Alan

GSSP

Night Force is a awsome scope but one of the places I last worked at did not have perks for Night Force.. but for Luepold it was a feild day for me I had gotten a few of them for a very nice deal I had goten the VX-III 4.5-14X40MM LR with mill dot, a Mark 4 LR/T M1 and a VX-III 1.75-6X32mm and that has a german #1 and a FX-II 2.5X20mm with german #1 and a FX-II 4X33mm with a standerd duplex.. have a few more but leave it at that...

I would love to get a Night Force 2.5-10X32MM and a 3.5-15X50mm and a 5.5-22X50 and all in Mill dot or a NP-R system

A while back I built my silly-wet rifle using an M98 Mauser, and a .30/06AI reamer.The problem I found was that whoever cut the reamer put a long throat on it. I was using Sierra flat-base bullets, so there wasn't a problem. Then...I could no longer find those bullets. The boat-tail Sierra is a great bullet, but I could only get it .030" into the neck and seat it .015" from the rifling. I load the rifle single-shot and the load was worked up with these specs. My point is order the reamer with no throat, and use a throating reamer to get the bullet where you want it.
I hope you like your '06AI as much as I like MY rifle after I got it fixed.
Have fun,
Gene

quote:

Originally posted by 500MagMan:
GSSP

Night Force is a awsome scope but one of the places I last worked at did not have perks for Night Force.. but for Luepold it was a feild day for me I had gotten a few of them for a very nice deal I had goten the VX-III 4.5-14X40MM LR with mill dot, a Mark 4 LR/T M1 and a VX-III 1.75-6X32mm and that has a german #1 and a FX-II 2.5X20mm with german #1 and a FX-II 4X33mm with a standerd duplex.. have a few more but leave it at that...

I would love to get a Night Force 2.5-10X32MM and a 3.5-15X50mm and a 5.5-22X50 and all in Mill dot or a NP-R system

Nightforce awesome! Everything about them, except weight. You get a bulletproof scope but it weighs.

I have 2 3x15x50NSX's one with NP2 and one with the NP Varmit reticle. Amazing....Like them better than my Conquests, and even my Divaria. But I still love the Swarovski Z6i best.

I compared the Nightforce to U.S. Optics...and end of day the price difference is in the customization. So I got a better understanding on comapring apples to apples.

But, IMHO, and I'm sure i'll get killed -- Leupold is a step behing glass clarity and coatings wise when it comes to 30mm tubes. And I would put up any 1" conquest in a similar price range to what they are offering.

quote:

Another thing about the 30-06 Ackley improved, is it it is just cool.

Then that makes the .30 Gibbs Super Cool!

I hunted with a .30 Gibbs for about 30 years. It was my favorite elk and other big critters rifle. My chronographed hunting loads were 180 gr Nosler Partitions at 2996 fps and one time 20 consecutive shots grouped into 1 1/2" at 100 yds.

I never had any chambering problems with the Gibbs shoulder.

Unfortunately, a fireforming overload about 5 years ago swelled the chamber and my .30 Gibbs became retired.

I replaced it with a .300 Wby Vanguard which is my new favorite elk, etc rifle.


jeffeosso, If a full charge of Rel 22 in a standard '06 case will give Ackley velocities, what velocities will you get with a full charge of Rel 22 in an AI or Gibbs case?

+1 on the AI. I have been considering the same thing for myself for several years and have plotted out 2900 fps using a 25" barrel. GSSP proved my plotting with his 26" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:

Nightforce awesome! Everything about them, except weight. You get a bulletproof scope but it weighs.

I totally agree with you. Darned heavy! At least not as heavy as a S&B or a USO.

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
But, IMHO, and I'm sure i'll get killed -- Leupold is a step behing glass clarity and coatings wise when it comes to 30mm tubes.

They may be behind in clarity but IMO they're still clear enough to get the job done.

What is it about the Z6i you like so much?

Alan

quote:

Not at proper pressures it didn't and still won't. Nor will the even larger Gibbs version.

Jim and the other Guys: The data I have been using since the late 60's, is Speer. According to Speer, the 30-06 Ackley Improved using 64grains of Norma 205,and a 180 grain bullet will produce 2973fps. The 300 H&H with the same bullet, produces 3015fps with 71 grains of Norma 205. The 200 grain bullet goes 2811 with 61 grains, and the H&H went 2916 with 69 grains of Norma 205 respectivley. I still use Norma 205, but I am convincenced some of the slower,newer powders, would be even better. The above numbers, substantiate my previous comparison statement. ????????


Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:

Nightforce awesome! Everything about them, except weight. You get a bulletproof scope but it weighs.

I totally agree with you. Darned heavy! At least not as heavy as a S&B or a USO.

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
But, IMHO, and I'm sure i'll get killed -- Leupold is a step behing glass clarity and coatings wise when it comes to 30mm tubes.

They may be behind in clarity but IMO they're still clear enough to get the job done.

What is it about the Z6i you like so much?

Alan

You gotta shoot one for a spell and then try others. Sure others would say the same about S&B. I go Conquest over the Divaria because, at least to my eye, there is negligible difference. Divaria to Swaro Z6 -- my eye sees it. Mine is only a 10x, but so damn crisp and clear, edges are just as sharp.

But they aint cheap. And in all honesty, I've found the Conquest to be one hell of a bang for the buck.

Even with the LE discount Swaro and Zeiss top line scopes are big dollars. Ok if you have a few rifles, but I like rifles a lot,