Is there any practical advantage of the ultra over the win? I have been thinking of getting an ultra mag, but what will it do that my 338 win. wont do, with less noise and recoil. Ant thoughts?

Josh for what is its intended purposes?

Dog

Josh Tharpe,

I think the animals won't feel the diference between these 2 calibers but your shoulder YES.

The original .338 Win mag can take all animals (not dangerous animals) in short or long distance shots. .338 Win mag is one of the most versatile caliber with the .300 Win Mag.

If you want a high velocity with a .338 bullets take a .338 ultra mag. But I see no practical reasons to have a .338 Ultramag.

Both use the same bullets, one with a 24" barrel (.338WM), and the other with a 26" barrel. The UM pushes a 250-grain bullet at least 200 fps faster than the .338WM.

The .338-06: Approximately 200 fps slower than the .338WM. The 338WM: Approximately 200 fps slower than the following cartridges:

.330 Dakota
.338 Lapua
.340 Weatherby
.338 RUM

There are a few .338's out there that are even faster than these.

The .338WM is one of the most popular cartridges in Alaska as well as the .30-06 and the .300WM. If you consider bears as dangerous game, then the .338WM is a great cartridge. Factory ammo for the .338WM usually is a little anemic. For example the average ammo with 250-grain bullets is advertised to produce somewhere around 2,600 fps or a little higher. Federal HE ammo with 250-grain bullets is advertised at 2,800 fps (much faster). I shot three rounds of this ammo last year at the range, and the average velocity on a cool day (55 degrees) was 2,770 fps.

I can easily produce handloads with 250-grain bullets that surpass 2,700 fps without any signs of excessive pressure (with RL-19 or RL-22).

The .338WM is a powerhouse if you consider that its case is of about the length of a .30-06's, but what makes it even better is the great BC and SD of the numerous well designed .33 bullets. When it comes to the .338 (any .33), you might as well think about how fast a bullet needs to be, because even with the velocities produce by most factory ammo pass through on moose size game is common. I have only recovered one 230-grain FS bullet from moose in the past seven years. My closest shot has been 100 yards, and the farthest 300. The moose I killed last year dropped to one 250-grain NOS from Federal HE ammo, at 250 yards. Again, the bullet zipped right through the lungs after breaking a rib on the way in.

A few years back I killed a moose that was standing broadside 200 yards out, and one 230-grain FS bullet broke both shoulder bones then exited. What I am trying to tell you is that so many Alaskans and elk hunters in the lower-48 can't be wrong by using the .338WM. However, if you still want more power with a .33 bullet, then the .338RUM may be "a too much of a good thing."

If you like a faster then .338WM cartridge without a belt, take a look at the .330 Dakota.

I live in griz country, and have carried a .338WM for about twenty five years. I've been going to lighter calibers, and now carry a 6.5X55 in the same country, and feel just as safe as when I have the larger caliber. The extra is overkill.
I see you are in an Eastern state. I suspect you haven't the places to shoot large calibers as much as those in the west do. If you can't afford the time and ammo to run lots of ammo through the rifle to get accustomed to it, you will be better of with something more mundane such as the .30-06. The larger bores take some getting used to. I shoot cast bullets in most calibers anymore, and when I pick up the ol' .338 WM and squeeze off the first few, it takes awile to get settled down and shoot as I should, even with cast 240 gr. FNGC at 2400 fps., and I shoot a lot.
If you must have a .338 bore, stick with the lesser. You'll shoot it better.

Josh if your looking for a no nonsence big game killer for the USA & Canada as well as small game too, the 338 Win mag will do the job. The Ultra just does it better in magnum terms. Along with the ride, you will get more recoil to the shoulder and spend more money for powder or factory ammo.

The 338 Ultra shoots faster and flatter than the .340 Weatherby, and has a lot more energy left at 500 yards than the conventional 338 mag. Does one need it, well that is your decision. I have them both. The Ultra will let you pick up another 75 to 100 yards over the 338 mag in hunting distance. I use mine as a long range elk rifle using 210grn. Barnes bullets and RL-22 powder.

If you can handle the recoil of the 338WM, then you can handle the recoild of the Ultra. Most of us on here are reloaders, so cost really ain't a factor. And they about the same cost anyway.

Lets see, faster speeds,
No belt,
Flatter shootin,
The question is now, if you want a .338 and you don't own one, why would pick the Win Mag? Wouldn't make much sense. But if you already have a 338Win Mag, wouldn't make sense just to go out and buy a gun for 150fps more.

While not a direct comparison, I'll also chime in on the recoil issue. I had a 35 whelen ackley, that I had re-chambered as a 350 Rigby. The rigby case has essentially the same capacity as a 358 norma, and hence 338 win mag. My loads are the same as with the whelen ackley, 250 gr @ 2700 fps, but with lower pressures. I find that I am at my recoil limit with this size case and bore.

Going to an ultramag, or 340 weatherby will add a marked increase in recoil, yet the terminal effects won't be greatly enhanced. If you will sacrifice all other aspects of shootability to snipe elk at 400-500 yds, then certainly the large cases have their niche, but for all around hunting of large game, the 338 win mag is a very well balanced round, and would certainly be my choice between the two.

Shooting is physics and nothing more. Back when the 30 06 and the 270 were new, bullets were not so new. They tended to blow up because while shooting is physics, bullet and rifle design is engineering and engineering didn't keep up with physics. Then came the custom bullet makers and tougher bullets and the failurs were minimized, if not eliminated. Now we are getting back to a point of engineering outstripping physics one more time. I believe the new caliburs are capable of driving even custom bullets to velocities where the failure rate will go up. It's just plain physics. I'm going to stay with the slower, proven bullets and caliburs like the 270 and 300 win mag.

I have no problem dealing with the recoil from my 338, and i like big guns, but how much is really needed to kill an animal. As most of you know there are not many elk or moose in Tn, so mainly it is strictly a whitetail rifle. I know that it is overkill on a deer, but like I said I like big guns. As far as the ultra mags & weatherbys, I have no problem with them, and almost bought a 340, when I bought my 338, I just don't see the use for them other then to have the biggest & fastest gun.I haven't made it out west yet, hopefully will soon, would love to hunt an elk more than anything, but untill then a whitetail will do!
Anybody have a good load for the 180bt? I am going to try them this year, I am using imr 4350, or rl-19. Thanks for your answers.
By the way, I actually know of people getting hurt with the weatherbys, one friend of mine broke his nose with a 30-378.OUCH!!

I dunno about the recoil issue..........using the calculator in Loadbase it looks like this

338 Win. 8 lbs weight , 225 gr bullet, 70 gr. powder, 2850 fps = 39 ft. lbs. recoil

338 Ultra , 9 lbs rifle weight , 250 gr bullet , 90 gr. powder, 2850 fps = 46 ft.lbs. recoil

338 Ultra, 9 lb rifle , 210 gr bullet , 95 gr powder, 3150 fps = 43 ft lbs recoil

It would seem to me that a 338 Ultra with proper stocking and weight could be handled by most rifle enthuthiasts ........I have only owned one .338 {a Winchester push feed} and I found it's recoil very easy to handle ......I like the concept of the .33 bore Ultra , I think it is the best designed case out of the whole Ultra line and I kind of hope it flies.....for the reloader I think you could duplicate high end .338 Win. loads at very moderate pressure levels ........a good deal in my view .......

Calculating recoil is kind of useless IMHO, as it is the fealt recoil that matters, and the calculations don't relate to the real world. The ultra and similar size cases have a much sharper jab then the smaller cases, and the increase in fealt recoil isn't a linear increase, as the calcs show. The ultras need a muzzlebreak to be manageable, and I personally won't resort to a break.

I'd much rather shoot a 40-45 caliber pushing a 350 gr bullet 2700 fps then a 33-35 pushing a 250 gr 3000 fps.

I'll grant you , Paul , that felt recoil can differ quite a bit from what the numbers can tell you . Still , I think the .338 Ultra could be manageable in a proper rifle and given that you wouldn't need to load it to the gills ......I'm thinking of Ken Howell's concept here , a case full of slow powder at moderate pressure ,......

I think it's likely a 350 gr .40 cal. at 2700 would also kick a fair bit........

One of the difficulties with calibers like the 338 Ultra and the 378 Wby, is that their high velocity potential mentally demands from you greater accuracy than a 338 or 375. But alas, it is usually harder to achieve. Extra recoil pounds the shooter, scope and mounts.

I have often observed at our range a shooter complaining of how much his 300 Win kicks compared to his 375. But the reality is that it kicks less. However, he fires more shots trying to get accuracy and velocity with a specific bullet and is also more tensed up. The same shooter bangs out a few round nose Hornadies or Woodleighs from his 375 and then has a cup of tea and a smoke. Whether it is doing 100 f/s less than the potential velocity or the ballistic coefficient is wrong does not cause him tension.

I think the 338 Win, 35 Whelen and 375 H&H all fit together.

In short, unless you get the 338 Ultra shooting real well and with bullets of the right ballistic coefficient, then frustration can set in.

It is this (and some other things) that stopped me crossing the line for custom rifles made in 375/416 rather than 375 H&H. In "theory" I agree with sdgunslinger about loading back but in practice I don't think it goes with the faster calibers. 416 Rigby back to 416 Remington is mentally quite a different deal. Probably because top loads in the 416 Rigby are not fast anyway.

Mike

WWeeeeellllllll, I have a 338 RUM in a Syndero SSF and REALLY-REALLY like it. Also a Winchester Supergrade 338 Win Mag.,new model, with a Douglas SS barrel. Both are extremely accurate and I will be going with the RUM. It is a bigger but longer "STICK", so to speak. Also if you can shoot a 338 Win Mag you can shoot a 338 RUM. I used to believe these horror stories about one gun over another, well yea a 308 and a 308 Norma Mag are at opposite ends of the recoil spectrum, but stay in the same part of the catagory and your OK. Recoil, I believe, is 90% mentel. Also use GOOD hearing protection and don't give in the the temptation to pull the trigger and -if need be- mentally force yourself to ssqquueeeeeeezzee the trigger and you can shoot them all. Good Shooting! "Z"

Paul aluded to it... Rate Of Recoil. John Barsness calls it the "Rocket Effect." The 338 Ultra (in rifles of identical weight) recoils MUCH faster than the 338 WM. So does the 340 Wby. Heck, they have to as they're burning substantially more powder to achieve their velocity increase. Especially the 338 RUM. The net result is more pain. This doesn't show up in the "foot-pound" recoil furmula's.

One reason (there are many, some better left unsaid!) many buy a "big" rifle (338 RUM'S etc.) is because of the "advantage" they are thought to have in the field on game. "In the field", however, is the operative phrase. Or, better said, "on the mountain!" To tame a 338 RUM the rifle needs substantial heft and a barrel of at least 24"... Personally, I despise heavy, long rifles as they're a nuisance in mountain climbing, so I'll stick with my "Little Big Stick."

We DO shoot rifle's we enjoy shooting MORE than rifle's we don't. As Mike said and I agree, recoil wise, the 375 H&H and 338 WM are very similar. I've never minded the recoil of a 375H&H and have no problem admiting to myself that it is my realistic limit in terms of consistantly accurate shooting. And that, my friends, is the name of the game.

BA

[ 06-04-2002, 06:41: Message edited by: Brad ]

On one hand we have an established cartridge and really one of the great ones in the 338 Win Mag. Someone once said this was the cartridge for which the elk was designed. It works at reasonable velocities and very efficiently. It can function well out of a 22 inch barrel if you want a handy bear rifle.
On the other hand we have a cartridge that appeals mostly to those who wish to claim impressive testicular development. It's one purpose for being would be in a heavy rifle as an extreme range elk rifle for those who are into that sort of thing. I don't think they can really be compared since they are so different in fact and in concept. Regards, Bill.

With the vast majority of animals being killed at 100 yards or less and the .338win mag being capable of taking animals like moose out to 400yards or better,the .338ultra makes a shitload of sense if you just enjoy recoil.

aren't we on a reloaders forum? You can easily load the RUM down and not have the recoil. The RUM is a much more versitile round (not to mention inherently accurate). If you want to use it in in Alaska to go after bears (or anything else) load a max load behing a 275 grain A frame at 2800 FPS. Wouldn't you feel safer with the RUM. I have a sendero in 338 RUM that clover leafs consistantly at 100 yards out of the box. I put a Leupold LR 4-14 on badger bases and ring, now I have a 1000+ yard rifle with much more versitilty than the 338 win.

MOA: A 275-grain Swift A-Frame at .338RUM velocities is great, but if you ever hunt in Alaska where most shots are taken from 20 to 300 yards, a 275-grain Swift launched at .338WM velocities is plenty. I guess all depends on where you hunt, but here it is not a bad idea to use low-powered scopes just in case one has to take a close range shot. I friend on mine killed a moose two years ago that sneaked behind him to within 40 feet. He had a 3.5-10 Leupold scope on his 7mm Magnum, and when he turned around to shoot the moose he could hardly find the right spot through his scope. The scope was set at the lowest power.

This is from the NRA's January 2001 issue, American Hunter: "The Alaska Department of Fish & Game hunter safety staff in Anchorage tallied the big game rifles sighted at the Rabbit Creek rifle range for the 1999 hunting season. The top three cartridges were the .30-06 (21%), .300 Win. Magnum (19%), and the .338 Win. Magnum (18%). These were followed by the 7mm Rem. Magnum (9%), .375 H&H Magnum (6%), .270 (6%), .308 (4%), and .300 Wby. Magnum (4%), .45-70 (1%), .280 (1%), and a host of others, including many wildcats. Comparable data are not available for hunters who live in the bush."

I can assure you that the 338 rum loaded to the same velocity as the 338 win mag will have noteably more recoil in rifles of the same weight. If I hadn't of re-chambered my 35 whelen ai to a 350 rigby, I would never have believed the difference in recoil of a larger case, loaded to the same velocity level, but there is deffinately a difference!

I admit that i haven't been shooting as long as some of you have, but if any thing i have learned from my 454srh, is that any increase in powder capacity, even a few grains will increase recoil period. I just don't see the need to burn 95-100grs. of powder to do what 70-75 will do. I haven't really heard about barrel life with the rums yet, but if loaded full tilt it can't be long. I do like the concept of the rums, but i'll likely stick to my win mag. Thank you for the replys, they are very interesting, keep'um coming!!

Josh,
What are you thinking? A rifle of that size for whitetail deer only causes everyone
to laugh at you behind your back ...... and some will laugh in your face!

I would take the .338 for general hunting, and if I wanted a long range heavy barreled job take the ultra.

P. Steve Morgan,

Australia seems just the opposite to America when guns that are way oversized are used. Take a 416 or 460 Wby out for roos and pigs and even the lowly 375, other shooters want to use it or see it used. A 460 Wby with muzzle brake definitely is one hell of a gun for winter time spotlight shooting.

Mike

P.Steve Morgan

Why would people laugh at me for using a 338 for deer? Is it overgunned for deer, yes!, but no more than a 7mm rem, or a 300win or any of the weatherbys. For that matter just for deer anything much over a .25 cal is overgunned. I don't use a 338 because i feel i need to, i use it because i want to. What do you think would be a better choice??

No such thing as being overgunned! There are folks that are poor shots, no matter what they carry, and those that use bullets not well suited for the application.

Provided one is a competent shot, then I see a 338 mag as a much better deer rifle then any of the small bores.

The 338 win mag will do in most cases 95% of what the Ultra mag will do....that is a fact gentlemen believe it or not. That elk, roo or what ever it is your trying to harvest will not know the difference. The 338 win mag is a solid 400 yard gun on big elk, using a 210 or 225 grn bullet.

Now the interesting part is, that when one is going to shoot 450 or 500 yards, at the elk across the valley, is the accuracy between the Ultra and the regular hum drum plain as English 338 win mag. Now for all those Macho types that tell us they can handle the recoil.....which ain't much different so they say.

I say this, go and try to compare the difference in shooting 3 shots off with the plain Jane 338mag at 400 yards and then pick up that Ultra mag and do the same thing with it. I betcha you will see a BIG difference in accuracy. I rest my case! I have both caliber rifles and have done so. It takes awhile to be able to handle the recoil difference. Only those used to shooting big bore guns will stand a chance.

Wow, what a prick. My 338 Ultra don't bother me too much. Maybe you just need to take the lace off your panties Brad. Or wait until you get out of junior high before shooting a 338 Ultra. Stick maybe with the .243. I really don't know what to tell ya. Really just your problem.

Really depends on the weight of your rifle. Muzzlebreak or not. Are you shooting 160g bullets or 275g bullets? Nobody is making you shoot the heaviest bullet Brad. Nobody is telling you to use H50BMG brad, you can try Re22. Just saying that a caliber kicks alot of pretty general and is utter nonsense. I just can't sit around and hear grown men complain about rifles kick with caliber below 375 or more. And mostly depends on the person. If I give my 8 year old nephew a .338 WM, he is going to say it kicks like a mule while I take him to the hospital. But with a 280lb man like myself. BFD. Its just a gun. I mean I use a slug gun most of the time for simple deer as most hunters where I hunt, but I rarely him them cry so much about recoil.
Most people I let shoot my 700 is very tense at first, and then shoots and says, "that wasn't so bad". "Thats like my 12ga with 3" mag slugs, I thought it would be worse."

[ 06-07-2002, 03:22: Message edited by: bigcountry ]

BigCountry... you can sling mud, throw tantrums and put others down all you want. All you've done is reveal your thin skin, lack of character and over-compensation... know what I mean "big" boy? The internet is full of guys like you throwing around bull-shit, acting "The Big Man" from behind a computer screen.

The fact remains, the two (in equal weight rifles and barrel lengths) are in entirely different leagues. I suppose, however, yours is HEAVY and/or braked?

No, I'll just stick with an 8lb 338 Win Mag and continue to kill elk...

BA

I agree with Brad, who is a very solid man indeed, and who is no "prick" by any stretch of the imagination........

I've used the .338 Win. Mag. off and on for over twenty years, and all I can say is, it just plain works. I also know guys who have taken enough animals around the world with this caliber to fill a museum or two and qualify for the "Weatherby Award". In fact, short of elephant, rhino, and cape buffalo, the .338 Win. Mag. is highly usedful and plenty of gun for all of the world's big game, and it's one of my favorite calibers. Any shortcomings it might have as a cartridge can be traced back to the guy behind the rifle - pure and simple.

AD

Geez allen are you two trying to grease each other up again,save that shit for email.

Does the .338 Ultra need substantially more powder ? Not in every case . For example , Hodgdon's data says 78 gr of H4350 will boost a 250 gr bullet to 2700 , not much different powder consumption from alot of .338 Win . loads .

The problem with the .338W is not that it doesn't work , it's like the 30/06 in that it works only too well . It's gotten so good it's just started to sound kind of ...........boring .

sdgunslinger,

The problem with the 338 is that it is like a big 308. It works (but they all work) but has no pizzaz or history etc. In other words, I don't think H&H and Purdey are over stocked with 338 reamers

But you are right on backed off loads with the 338 Ultra.

My calculations show that Varget would do a very good job in the 338 Ultra at duplicating the 338 for both velocities and powder weight.

Calibers are amazing with their own personalities. A big banger like the 416 Rigby is all acceptable loaded back to 416 Remington. In fact people with serious money get the actions that go with 416 Rigby. If they then announce that they are getting 416 Rigby, you would not hear cries come out that a 416 Remington should be obtained.

Mike

Mike375 has made the most profound statement....they all work.

If you want more velocity and recoil, go for it. Why not? This is all just playing with toys anyway.

And just to be argumentative, a .375 is an improved .338 anyway.

Will

I don't shoot a 338 but I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread so far!!! Many well stated opinions from both sides of the fence. I could(and do) read this stuff for hours!!! Thanks.

Brad...
Amen on that !!!!!!

From another wery satisfied 338 win mag user.

This really has been interesting reading. I'm kind of surprised there are apparently so many people who shoot "hunting loads" all the time. Even with my 338 WM I have hunting and "plinking" loads. As is the case with my 338 RUM. No wonder, I can see how it would be easy to develope a little "FLINCH" doing a thing like that. Is this practice of mine a deviation from the norm or do some of the rest of you do this also??? I'd like to know. Just curious really. Good Shooting. "Z"

Zedman,

I use a 375 for all my shooting. My loads range from 220 grain Hornady Flat Points at just over 2000 f/s and up.

I do not think you are alone.

If I had a 338, I would be developing loads with the 200 Hornady Flat point.

Mike

[ 06-07-2002, 17:55: Message edited by: Mike375 ]