Somewhere on here someone made the statement that the 7-08 is ballistically superior to the 7x57. Now the only way one could out perform the other IMO is speed. So I did a little research according to the Nosler Reloading Manual fith edition the 7x 57 tosses a 140 gr bullet at 2892 fps using 51.5 gr of RL19. The 7mm-08 tosses the same bullet at 2922 fps using 49 gr of RL19. Both were max loads.

This befudled me. How can the 08 go faster with less powder? A little more reading and I found my answer. Four more inches of barrel. Nosler used a 22" barrel with the 7x57 and a 26 incher with the 08. So if you add what 100 fps per inch? You end up with 3292 fps vs. 2922 fps.

I know that there are people on here that know reloading and ballistics much better than I. What are your thoughts?

now for the truth in reloading:

the 7 X 57 loaded to THE SAME PRESSURE as the 7-08 will improve to about 3,000'/sec with the 140 grain bullet. I'd almost bet you could make 3,100'/sec and this is with a 24" barrel.

Remember that the company publishing the loading data doesn't have to worry about too many 7-08's that have been around for over 100 years.

Out of equal rifles the 7mm Mauser has more powder capacity to push the same bullets with.

Both great rounds!! 7mm-08 will fit a short action which is a little advantage if it matters. Neither has let me down, but my vote would probably go with my Mark X with double set triggers a Leupold 2-7 compact in 7 mike mike.

What these gentlemen are saying is exactly what I understand to be the issue. The two cartridges are ballistic twins in all the handloading manuals, but the max pressure of the original military round has been significantly held back because of "all the older rifles out there." If you own a modern bolt action in 7 X 57, I suspect with handloads it will eclipse the 7-08...

The two are not ballisticly equal and the difference is more prevelant as you use heavier bullets.

Touting the short action for the 7-08 is an aborition at best. What that short action and magazine really do is restricts the OAL in such a way as to push the longer bullets into the powder room usurping potential energy.

The 7x57 in a std.? action allows the bullets to be seated out to function with the deeper throating.

This means the 7X57 is a far more functional round than the 7-08 in their intended rifles when used by hand loaders.

Using bullets under 140gr. the 7-08 comes close to being competitive.

If the Savage 99 were still being built I guess at least there would be a use for the 7-08.As it is however ;it looks like the marketeers needed a sales gimic with a cartridge that really brings nothing new to the table. New toy at best. roger

I was hoping this thread came around, good lets talk 7mm's. First right up front let me set the record straight these are both fine rounds. The 7x57 is my favorite cartidge out of the whole cartridge kingdom it is a truelly great round. The 7mm-08 sits about one step down on the ladder from that. In my opinion it is a testament to the Winchester marketing department that the 30-30 ever got to be America's favorite deer cartridge, when the 7x57 was available. Lets see flat shooting, moderate recoil, and just dynamite on deer, how the 30-30 even got in the game is one of universes mysteries. Ditto on the 7mm-08 this is the esssence of a deer cartridge.

Now to the subject at hand, this based on using a modern mauser 98 or Remchester equivilant, no old metal, we are talking high pressures.

First reference the page on terminal ballistics and factory loaded ammunition on the 7x57. Next rip the page out of your manual, and wipe your ass with it, you have all the value your going to get from that page. No American ammo manufacturer makes good ammo, the closest your going to get are the hot rodded new Hornady loads, and they aren't all they could be. And to keep this on a apples to apples comparison the following numbers are chambers cut to Saami spec's, no tricks, extra long leads, but keep in mind older 7x57's were chambered for 175 gr bullets and they have more leade. With a clean ass and discarding the crap data points published lets look at realistic numbers:

115 gr.
120 gr. I am not going discuss these bullet wieghts in either of these cartidges, if you want to play with this light of bullets, get a life and buy a 25 or 6.5 caliber rifle, in any 7mm these are just a waste and a good way to screw up two fine cartridges, if you want a varmit rifle look elsewhere. The 7mm-08 will have a slight velocity edge.
130 gr Bare minimum useful wieght in either caliber, not ideal, just minimum.
7mm-08 3038 fps with 24" barrel
7x57 2926 fps with 22" barrel
add or subtract 35-50 fps per inch for different barrel lengths
140 gr Now we are in useful bullet wieghts in both cartridges
7mm-08 2947 fps with 24" barrel
7x57 2855 fps with 22" barrel
150 gr My personal favorite bullet wieght for all around use
7mm-08 2874 fps (24)
7x57 2774 fps (22)
154 gr Here we enter conflicting data areas, first set is Ken Waters loads, which have proved pretty consistant when I chronographed against them. I don't use his exact loads but these are very good ballpark numbers.
7mm-08 2750 fps (24)
7x57 2735 fps (23)
Hornady:
7mm-08 2500 fps (18.5)
7x57 2800 fps (22)
160 gr
7mm-08 2726 fps (24)
7x57 2700 fps (22)
175 gr
7mm-08 2623 fps (24)
7x57 2586 fps (22)
Hornady
7mm-08 2300 fps (18.5)
7x57 2500 fps (22)
Sierra:
7mm-08 2600 fps (26)

Well thats published data, first I think both the Hornady and the Sierra manuals have faults, I actually suspect all the manuals when it comes to the 7x57, some are way conservative, others have proved to be optimistic. Sierra I fault for not having a 175 gr load listed and the 7x57 loads are conservative. And Hornady's data on the 7mm-08 is worked up on a 18.5" barrel. I have older manuals that are not with me that have hotter 7x57 loads. I don't have all my 7x57 data with me, I have a ton of it and have I cross reference between multiple sources all the time. Best single source is Ken Waters stuff, but I think his 175 grs loads in the 7mm-08 are very hot, and I get better results with one of my 7x57's from 150 gr and up than he got. But his loads are the best single place to start. When it comes to the 7x57 get 5 manuals you will get 5 different top load points. This is a cartidge that it pays to work up your loads in individual rifles, pay close attention for pressure signs and back of a tad, thats how you get good performance out of the 7x57.

On the hunting fields, look at the above data, if you think a dead deer can tell the difference more power to you. Accuracy in a hunting rifle is the same, in a varmit rig (?) you could probably wring a little more accuracy with the 7mm-08. But I have a 7x57 that shoots .75 MOA with Nosler Partitions with boring consistancy, and I can better that a tad with other bullets.

As a general rule I give a slight velocity edge to the 7mm-08 under 150 gr bullet wiegths, and above that the 7x57 wins in my book.

Another item, individual bullets impact 7mm-08 velocities quite a bit. Long ogive bullets tend to protrude into the 7mm-08's powder space and with loss of case volume comes loss of velocity. from 150 gr and up you need to work with individual bullets, a for instance is the round nose 175 grs work well in the 7mm-08.

In conclusion if you want to get into a argeument about velocites between these two don't bother, if you want meaningful improvement in velocity levels look at a 280 Remington, another cartridge that needs to be handloaded for best potential.

quote:

If the Savage 99 were still being built I guess at least there would be a use for the 7-08.

Thanks Roger......spot on!!!

Having own and chronographed each with 140gr in 7-08 got 2844fps and 140gr in 7x57 was 2685fps I was pretty disappointed in the velocity in 7x57 at the time I tried 139,145,150 and 160 gr bullets so I ordered a new barrel and had it chambered for a 7x57AI and with 145gr bullets I was at 2991fps then I started to shoot a shorten 7-08 which was set up for the 150gr match bullets in that rifle and was at 2915fps. I did most of that over 20yrs ago and I know have alot better powder out today which may help some but that 7x57AI was one fine shooting rifle. When Rem came out with the heavy barrel varmit rifle in 7-08 I used that with 168gr match bullets as a LR PD rifle for afew years seemed like that case capacity to me was better for that bullet velocity was at 2564fps. I never got interested in AI the 7-08 when we got rid of the extra case capacity by shortening the 7-08 case seemed like got a pretty good increase in velocity. Well good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
So if you add what 100 fps per inch? You end up with 3292 fps vs. 2922 fps.

What are your thoughts?

I think your overall point is valid, but your assumption above is over-optimistic. Even with a grossly overbore capacity round and H870 you'd be hard pressed to see 100fps/inch. Reloader 19 isn't that slow

Great rounds, both.

quote:

Originally posted by tarbe:

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
So if you add what 100 fps per inch? You end up with 3292 fps vs. 2922 fps.

What are your thoughts?

I think your overall point is valid, but your assumption above is over-optimistic. Even with a grossly overbore capacity round and H870 you'd be hard pressed to see 100fps/inch. Reloader 19 isn't that slow

Great rounds, both.

Thank you. I had picked RL 19 at random. What is the standard for added velocity per inch of barrel?

All bullets take up powder space!

The cartridges should perform about the same in equal circumstances.

There are some nice short action rifles around that the 7X57 will not fit into. Both it and the, 6mm Rem, 257 R., 8X57 etc.really don't fit well or full into many actions.

In principle, I like the 7X57 better because it's such an entrenched classic, but as a practical matter, I think the 7mm-08 is a more inherently accurate cartridge that'll do the same jobs just as well as the 7X57.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
In principle, I like the 7X57 better because it's such an entrenched classic, but as a practical matter, I think the 7mm-08 is a more inherently accurate cartridge that'll do the same jobs just as well as the 7X57.

AD

Amen, Amen, Amen.

Personally I avoid the 7mm/08 because it seems a bit mundane to me. I seems like everybody I meet has one.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
Somewhere on here someone made the statement that the 7-08 is ballistically superior to the 7x57. Now the only way one could out perform the other IMO is speed. So I did a little research according to the Nosler Reloading Manual fith edition the 7x 57 tosses a 140 gr bullet at 2892 fps using 51.5 gr of RL19. The 7mm-08 tosses the same bullet at 2922 fps using 49 gr of RL19. Both were max loads.

This befudled me. How can the 08 go faster with less powder? A little more reading and I found my answer. Four more inches of barrel. Nosler used a 22" barrel with the 7x57 and a 26 incher with the 08. So if you add what 100 fps per inch? You end up with 3292 fps vs. 2922 fps.

I know that there are people on here that know reloading and ballistics much better than I. What are your thoughts?

Ah, It's more like 20fps per inch.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:
Four more inches of barrel. Nosler used a 22" barrel with the 7x57 and a 26 incher with the 08. So if you add what 100 fps per inch? You end up with 3292 fps vs. 2922 fps.

I know that there are people on here that know reloading and ballistics much better than I. What are your thoughts?

Ah, It's more like 20fps per inch.

Thank you! So using your figures your talking 2972 fps for the 7x57. Identical then for velocity. So the advantage for the 7mm-08 is efficiency. Then there is the whole low pressure for the old rifles thing.

quote:

I seems like everybody I meet has one

Boy that must be a regional thing, 7mm-08's are just plain scarce in my neck of the woods. Seven borees in general are an oddity.

Many moons ago I had my panties all in a wad over the 7mm-08. It was becomming apparent thatit was displacing the 7x57 and I wasn't real happy. Time paased, I opened up my blinders and gave it a fair chance, its a good round, and really the only non magnum 7 thats a real option anymore without looking a semi-custom. Catalog them, 7x57 waining at best, 280 not a lot better, and both of these should be taken to the reloading bench to get the best performance ( Federal HE help the 280, and Hornady has the same equivilant in 7x57).

And I got to say I have yet to pick up a 7mm-08 that doesn't shoot. Every one I have touched shoot min just under 1 MOA off the bench, its an accurate rascal. My sampling base is small I admit, but all I have shot have been excellent shooters. If you not a handloader this is an excellent choice as a deer caliber.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the advantage of seating bullets out farther when using the 7x57 in a long action. Might I add that one could do the same with the 7-08, but the real point, I think, is why bother? As much as I like the 7x57, if you were to have a regular length action 7mm, I'd recommend a 280. In a short action, the 7-08 is a better fit.

The 7x57 fits great in the semi-short Mauser actions that were designed for it back in the day.

I have both and in the real world there isn't a dimes worth of difference between them. One supposed advantage of the 7x57 is most are long throated to accomadate the military ammo loaded with 175gr bullets and such. This becomes a liability when you try to seat 140ish gr bullets near the lands. On the other hand, a 7-08 does give up powder space if you load 175's. (does anyone REALLY load 175's in either case????) IMO, both rounds shine using bullets in the 120-150 range.
FWIW, If I wanted to throw a 175gr bullet at something, neither would be my first choice of cartridges.
This is merely another "tastes great; less filling" argument. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. But it does help pass the time while waiting for hunting season.

The 7x57 loaded to the same pressures in the same length barrel wiil give higher velocities than the 7-08. Especially if the 7-08 is being fired in a short action it was designed for. Where I live there are always more boxes of 7x57 on the shelf than 7-08. But you can order a 7-08 from a major firearms co. As far as actual performance differences in the field I don't think so.

quote:

(does anyone REALLY load 175's in either case????)

Yes I really do. When I am hunting up in our grizzly country and packing my 7x57 I keep 175's in the magazine. If I need to shoot flatter and farther I cycle a round out of the mag reach in my pocket and load a 150 gr pill. I don't need to bother under 150 yards, and over that I have all the time in the world and am looking for a rest anyway, takes a couple of seconds at most.

On the other hand if I am up close and personal with a PO'd bear time is not a luxury item. I want deep pentetration and we are talking way under 20 yards at this point. You better not shoot one unless he is at least that close, cause every grizzly that gets shot gets a whole team of fish and game guys involved, investigating, and dealing with the EPA crap. These and the woodland caribou are the sacred cows of N Idaho. And if you shot one and don't report it you are going to be guilty until proven innocent. I like hunting with 7x57 cuase its my favorite rifle, I still like packing it cause its light and handy, but its a flip of the coin if I take it as primary rifle when I am hunting that country anymore, the non mag 7's are not bear stoppers and I have a lot better feeling when I see bear tracks or bear and I have my 30 mag and 200 gr bullets. Speaks with a lot more authority. But wieght and handy win out many times, and my 30 mag just hammers deer and it is too much of a good thing on a deer for me.

Make me another person who prefers a 7X57 over a 7mm-08. My bullet of choice is either the 150 gr. Nosler Solid Base or 150 gr. Partition depending on what is hunted. At 2850 fps plus in my rifle it doesn't give up a whole lot to any 280 I have ever owned in the same length barrel.

One further thing that is seldom talked about with the various 7mm rounds is the twist rate which is often all over the map. I myself prefer a 1 in 10 inch twist rate or a 1 in 9.5 inch twist for my 7mms. Others may have different ideas but those have worked good for me.

"I still like packing it cause its light and handy, but its a flip of the coin if I take it as primary rifle when I am hunting that country anymore, the non mag 7's are not bear stoppers. . ."

For a light and handy rifle that can handle anything that the mild 7mm's can and give you a little more confidence should you run into a moose, grizz, etc. it's hard to fault the .308.
Shoots just as flat with 150-gr. bullets as the 7mm's do with 140's, and I'd take a .30 caliber 180-gr. bullet at 2600 over a 175-gr. .28 at 2400 any day, should I be lookin' at Bullwinkle.

For a light carry, do-all gun the .308 is very, very hard to beat. Works very well with barrels shorter than 22 inches, too.

For a short action 7mm that shows some practical advantages over the .308, I'd look to the .284. Ask Mel Forbes, as I believe he makes and sells more light .284's than any other chambering.

John G,

Nah, I have a .308, I prefer to pack my 7mm's. The 308 doesn't do real well with 200 gr bullets, check your SD's. You need to go to at least 200 Gr to match the 7mm 175 gr. For this application I want long and heavy for deep penetration, I would much prefer taking my 30-06 with 200 gr bullets over the 308. One of the new HE rounds in this heavy of bullet in the 308 would be interesting but nobody is doing that and you can't reproduce these HE stuff on the bench.

Light is a subjective term. I as a rule don't care for whats thought of as a light rifle. I am very familiar with Forbes rifles, no thanks.
Putting an actual weight that you want to carry is a better start. Perfect for me is 8-8.5 lbs out the door with scope. Don't care for that wieght on mags and heavy recoil rifles plus up by 3/4 lbs for 9-91/4 lbs and I am happier.

Great thread guys I like both of them, got a 7mm-08 and a 7x57 and I'm very happy.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:

quote:

I seems like everybody I meet has one

Boy that must be a regional thing, 7mm-08's are just plain scarce in my neck of the woods.

Yes, it must be a regional thing because it is a very popular cartridge here, and rightfully so. I have had several over the years and all have been very accurate and nice carrying guns. I've only moved away from it because I have a strong preference for older/classic cartridges, not becuse I really find anything wrong with it.

Does anyone really feel that the 7-08 actually filled some void?

The 100 year old plus 7mmx57 can not be out performed by the 7-08. And the idea of an action 1/2" shorter in length is a p poor argument!

Most of what I'm reading on this thread is rationalization to form justification of questional preference.

Simply put the PxV of the 7x57 in every circumstance is greater than the 7-08 and neither is more accurate than the other.The term inherently more accurate is gibberish.Any gunsmith worthy of the name can make a 7mmX57 shoot like a 6mm ppc with eyes. roger

Bartsche,

The only void it filled is that US ammo manufacturers are willing to load modern factory high pressure rounds in the 7mm bore.

They are cautious when it comes to the 7x57, something to do with consumers not reading warning labels, and they don't want the liability.

In truth I think it sucks, I wonder how many old 7x57's are left out there.

The 1/2" in the action is bogus, nice but not really neccessary and I could care less.

I ran the numbers on my ballistic calculator and I can't see more than a 25fps advantage in favor of the 7X57 in any bullet weight. The way I ran it is I gave both rifles 24" barrels and they both had to be within 100psi cup pressure of each other.

I've always' been a big fan of the 7X57 but I've found this program pretty much tells the truth.

Here's the way I see it. If you don't reload definitely go with the 7-08. Ammo is easy to find and it's not anemic like some 7X57 factory ammo is.

If you do reload I would say the 7X57 might be the best choice. With the ability to seat bullets out and a little more case capacity, how could you go wrong?

Of course if you need more power there is always the .280REM and 7X64 but that's another argument for a different thread.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
In principle, I like the 7X57 better because it's such an entrenched classic, but as a practical matter, I think the 7mm-08 is a more inherently accurate cartridge that'll do the same jobs just as well as the 7X57.

AD

Allen. I have three rifles in 7x57. The worst that the worst shooter will do is one inch. The best shooter varies from .375" to .75", depending on the bullet. Two of the rifles aren't even tuned up. Really, how much more accuracy do you actually need?
Paul B.

Interesting thread. I should be receiving a new 7-08 in the next day or two. I have a hunting buddy who has a 7x57 that he loves when loaded with 160 grain Grand Slams. It is a real one shot killer for him on game as large as greater kudu. I just loaded some 154 grain Hornady bullets but I think I may just stay with the 140s in the 7-08. I have a .280 that in reality, does more with the heavier 7mm bullets anyway.

In factory ammo the 7-08 has the edge as the factories load the 7x57 down...In Handloaded ammo the 7x57 leaves the 7-08 in the dust...

If you have a 06 magazine and a long throat in your 7x57 ala Brno 21 and 22s then you can make the 280 hunt a hole....use H414 powder...

I see no intelligent design in the 7-08, if I were to go that route I would opt for a .308 Win.

Allen ,
Don't you think the term "inherent accuract" has been beat to death...I suggest that a good barrel, proper bedding et. has more to do with hunting accuracy than anything else...Lets keep "inherent accuracy" to the benchrest gang, there again I think its somewhat abused...

Well, I actually went out, did some research, and bought a 7mm-08. I wanted a Savage with the accutrigger. Don't care for the 308 - just because. I have a Chilean mauser (model 1895) in 7x57 and ideally I would have gotten one of those, but Savage doesn't make one. Closest thing to it was the 7-08.

Also, a buddy has a 270 he likes. Looking into the changing face of our deer hunting land, I wanted something a bit more long-range than my peep sighted 45-70. With the 7mm-08 I can load close to 270 velocities with 139gr bullets while using a bunch less powder.

Someday I'll have that 7x57. Maybe come tax return season!

Vapodog has it right, good handloads will go 3030 fps with a 140, 2780-2825 fps with a 160 in the 7x57. They will be about 100 fps higher with the same pressure, maybe more if the rifle is long throated, just the same way a 6mm is 100 fps faster than a .243, which are based on the same two cartridges. There's no magic, if the smaller cartridge is faster its loaded to a higher pressure. The velocity difference amounts to nothing, but the 7-08 will never be the classic that the 7x57 has been for years, and is still my most used 7mm.

Ditto from here on what Atkinson said. He don't need my backup no how but what he said is pure OD truth from my experience. I had experience early on with three different rifles chambered for the 7-08 and I couldn't make anyone of them shoot worth a hoot with anything other than the 139 or 140 gr bullets. Sure, it may have been the twist but the rifles were two Remingtons and one Ruger. My latest 7X57 - which will be my grandsons as soon as he is old enough to use it - is Ruger mod 77. i would and will buy another one as soon as I find one that suits me. This thing shoots as well as any 'cheap' rifle (I hear that term applied to Rugers constantly) I've ever picked up and it works - end of story.
Another thing not yet mentioned is the long, slight taper of the 7X57 case which makes it feed like a dream - the old 375 H&H comes to mind here.
And as a final note, this horse puky about 'inherent accuracy' has about as much credibility with me as does the term 'double tendon strength' in professional rasslin - ain't no such thing, Magee. "The 308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06" how many times you heard that? Please explain this to me and I will then tell you the rifle, the barrel, the bedding, etc., etc have one Hell of a lot more to do with the accuracy than the case the bullet leaves the chamber from. Years ago, some Army type fired some groups into a 6 foot circle with a 45/70 Springfield long Tom - from two miles away! Does that mean we should all put down our bolt guns and go back to trapdoors? Sounds to me like it is 'inherently accurate' as I doubt I could hit a 6' circle at two miles with anything I own - could you?
Stay with the 7x57 in a good rifle and it will do you right. Been here well over a hundred years and still going strong at my house.

Choosing between them would depend on the action I had. The 7-08 is a true SA round and, as such, is ideally suited to a genuine SA. The 7x57 isn't a long action round or short action round... it's in a sort of Mauser never-never land. If I had a nice Mauser action I'd chamber 7x57. If I had a SA I'd go 7-08. If I had a modern LA I'd do neither and go 270!

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Choosing between them would depend on the action I had. The 7-08 is a true SA round and, as such, is ideally suited to a genuine SA. The 7x57 isn't a long action round or short action round... it's in a sort of Mauser never-never land. If I had a nice Mauser action I'd chamber 7x57. If I had a SA I'd go 7-08. If I had a modern LA I'd do neither and go 270!

Brad, why did you spoil an excellent post by mentioning the 270
Perhaps you meant to type 7x64

Oldun, sorry... must be a Montana thing, being too near Magnetic North! Guess if I were hanging upside down in the Southern Hemisphere I'd have enough blood in my brain to make the "intelligent choice" of 7x64

BTW, I'm going to open a good bottle of New Zealand Pinot Noir tonight... I'll toast your health!

Best,

BA

quote:

BTW, I'm going to open a good bottle of New Zealand Pinot Noir tonight... I'll toast your health!

Best,

BA

Goodonya Mate! enjoy the wine.

I've owned and enjoyed both of these great calibers. The most compelling reason to go with the 7mm-08 is that you can get it in a Tikka Lite. They also offer it in a 7x64, but no 7x57! For the price I have yet to own a rifle that can shoot with the Tikka. I got a stainless/syn about a year ago for $519 and would not part with it. Great rifle.