quote:

Originally posted by oneshotonly:
30 06, can even get ammo at the bait shop. kills everything good enough, recoil isnt too bad, lots of spare parts cause everybody has one.

Only one I've every owned was an M1 Garand. Don't own one now. I would choose 8x57, but alas it is not listed. 7mm Rem mag. I've been down to 1 hunting rifle before. My 7mm Rem mag. It has never failed me.

quote:

Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Yes the good old 8x57 .323 gets no respect.
May I suggest you try the 185 TSX also at 2700, will be more accurate and give you a better overall wound channel.
The 160 TSX can touch 2900 and will kill just as dead is the 185 if your rifle likes it.

I'm still hoarding some 197 gr spire point cartridges made as machine gun loads. The bullet looks like a Berger and they do 2800 in my Persian 8x57 rifle !

No thanks, I will stick W/what I have.



If it ain't broke ya can't fix it.


I'm not a fan of monolthic bullets & the 200gr Partition will actually shoot flater than lighter, higher Mv bullets due to the better BC of the 200gr bullets.

IMO, 200gr is the best compromise for Mv & down range ballistics in the 8mm.

I wouldn't mind some of those 197gr machine gun loads though.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I think the 8x57 doesn't get respect because a lot of people have only seen/used the 170 grain loads from Winchester and Remington that are about equal to a .30-30. When loaded to its full potential, the 8x57 is just as good as the .30-06, and is certainly adequate for anything in North America.

I'm in the middle of turning a Yugo m48 into a sporter. If I get it done in time, I'm probably going to use it for deer this fall. I haven't had time to work up a load for it, so I'm probably just going to use the 196 grain S&B loading.

Remington & Winchester tried to turn the 8X57 into a 32 Win Special. Same bullets, same MV.

As far as turning a 48Yugo into a sporter? Here's some inspiration for ya.

This is a commercial version of the 48 Yugo (VZ500) W/a turned down militry take-off barrel.




That target pasted into the previous post was shot W/that rifle.

For the WildCat,

wow, that is a great load and a fine rifle, accurate and with the power that the cartridge is capable of, and then some. (Like the 416Rigby, SAAMI is artificially low for the 8x57 and it needs good handloading.)
I stood next to a friend who shot a lion with one, defensibly. Lion dropped, though we added insurance shots immediately afterward.

A person would probably need to shoot a hundred or even hundreds of animals before a significant result would be seen in comparison to a 338WM. (Yes, that is only a theoretical comment, it would be impossible to arrange a valid comparison. And I'm talking non-dangerous game, because even an extra 800 ftlbs in the 338WM might be put to good use in the really large critters.)

Your trajectory is very close to a load that I used to use in 338WM: a 250 NP at 2700-2725. Roasted a lot of good meat.

One caveat on your notes: published BC's seem to go in the other direction. Nosler Partition publishes a .426 BC for the 200 grain. Barnes 200 gn TSX is .421 BC. That is essentially equal since these things vary more than .005 at different velocities. (Also, the JBM site lists the NP 200gn at .350BC for some reason.)

For long range deer and pronghorn, you still might want to try a 160 TTSX and its .400BC. The following comparisons are when sighted in with a trajectory that never rises over 2.1" over line of sight, Usually, 1.9" or 2.0" at 100 yards.

At 3000fps (equivalent energy or slightly less than the 200 gn load that you say is safe in your gun),
the 160TTSX will drop -5.6" at 300 yards, -18.3" at 400 yards.
That should get just about everything done, shy of elk on a diagonal.
For comparison, at 2730fps, both the 200 TSX and the 200 NP will be about -8.2" low at 300 and -24" at 400. That, too, is flat enough for almost any hunting that I have ever done. (Dorcas gazelle in the subSahara at 300-400 yards could use a load of 3100fps or higher with a good BC, like in a 270Win with 130 gns, or even flatter a 110gn TTSX.)

Enjoy your hunts and thank you for sharing. I would happily hunt with that 8x57.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
For the WildCat,

wow, that is a great load and a fine rifle, accurate and with the power that the cartridge is capable of, and then some. (Like the 416Rigby, SAAMI is artificially low for the 8x57 and it needs good handloading.)
Enjoy your hunts and thank you for sharing. I would happily hunt with that 8x57.

I worked up loads using a 60,000 PSI ceiling W/Quickload predictions.

VvN550 would best all other powders I had readily available by nearly 100 FPS @ that pressure level.

It is a very dense powder W/a slow burn rate that allows a bit more more grain wieght per volume.

I was in a bit of a rush when I cooked up that load. I did some quick pressure checks off paper & settled on that load for the 200gr partition & 1 more gr for the 180gr Balistic Tips.

My bullet quantities were limited. I went to the range & shot a few groups W/the Ballistic Tips getting some respectable accuracy.



When I tried my 200Gr Partiotion loads, my 1st 3 shots W/the Partitions yielded the .438" group pasted in the previous post.

The load readily repeats the same type of 1/2" accuracy so I didn't feel the need to do any further load developemnt.

Sighted in about 2 3/4" high @ 100yds, it hits POA @ about 235 & is 3" low @ 275. My usual (bread & butter) shot from my tripod stand that overlooks a 15acre logged off section is between 190 & 260yds.

I have yet to have a shot present itself that a center of mass on the lungs didn't drop the deer within 15yds of where it stood.

quote:

sheep, antelope, deer, elk, moose and bear.

Here in Virginia the sheep, antelope, elk and moose herds are really depleted.
So of the calibers mentioned the 30-06 would suit my needs.
I can find brass easily, bullets are plentiful, I'd be using cast bullets, loaded ammo is to be found most any where and I have a Winchester model 95 in 30-06.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
At 3000fps (equivalent energy or slightly less than the 200 gn load that you say is safe in your gun),
the 160TTSX will drop -5.6" at 300 yards, -18.3" at 400 yards.
That should get just about everything done, shy of elk on a diagonal.
For comparison, at 2730fps, both the 200 TSX and the 200 NP will be about -8.2" low at 300 and -24" at 400. That, too, is flat enough for almost any hunting that I have ever done. (Dorcas gazelle in the subSahara at 300-400 yards could use a load of 3100fps or higher with a good BC, like in a 270Win with 130 gns, or even flatter a 110gn TTSX.)

Enjoy your hunts and thank you for sharing. I would happily hunt with that 8x57.

All this theory about higher Mv W/lighter bullets sometimes goes out the window when the lighter bullets are long or longer than the 200gr Partition.

The 180gr Balistic tips W/the boattail base, when loaded just off the lands, impinged on the powder space more than a flat based bullet of similar weight so that only 120fps Mv improvemnet was possible over the 200gr Partition.

My barrel has an unusually short throat. That coupled W/rifling that looks to be lapped due to the total lack of tool marks in the grooves as well as a chamber that appears to polished makes me believe that perhaps this was not the run of the mill take off barrel. (even though it had the issue sights when I received it from Numrich Arms)

Since it showed outstanding accuracy for a military barrel, I am NOT interested in changing the throat for a longer COAL.

Anyway, back to the short COAL of 3.130"/3.135" for the 200gr Par/180gr BT. This short COAL did not yeild enough Mv gain to overcome the poorer BC of the 180gr BT. @ 300yds, the 200gr Par actually had a very slight trajectory advantage & a bigger advantage in retained energy.

Likwise, the longer boattail design of the 200gr Accubound lost just enough in Mv over the Partition to negate any advantage of the better BC. I fear that the long monolithic bullets will also prevent enough Mv advantage over the 200gr Partitions to yield a significant @ longer ranges.

Going to the slightly more affordable 200gr Accubond over the Partition does have some attraction, but @ this time, I am experimenting W/195gr Hotcore bullets for plinking, saving the much more expensive Partition for use on game. I hope to achieve silmilar POI/trajectory for the Hotcores. To be honest, for the 2700ish Mv, the Hotcores will probably perform as good or better than the Partitions @ a fraction of the cost. Being on a very limited income, that has a lot of advantage.

Wildcat
You didn't discuss the 160 TTSX.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Wildcat
You didn't discuss the 160 TTSX.

The computer that had my Quickload/Quicktarget loaded bit the dust & mine is one of the early "floppy disk" versions. Since my current computer has no floppy disk drive & I presently don't have the $50 to get the updated CD versions, I have no way to "model" a 160 TTSX load & I would also need a 160 TSX bullet to measure the COAL in my throat.

My extremely short throat makes bullet seating depth a real factor. In the case of leadcore bullets, lighter bullet weight seldom yields true long range benefits. Oh they might start out shooting flat, but as the distance bleeds off Mv in a lower BC bullet, the trajectory starts to nose dive.

In a short COAL cartridge like the 8X57 I can't see any advantage to solid copper bulets due to the longer length for a given bullet weight.

The 160 TTSX is .030" longer than the 200gr Partition. That might not be significant in an 8mm Rem Mag, but in my stubby 3.130"ish COAL it is significant as far as "diminishing returns".

The 160 TTSX has a slightly better BC than the 180gr Balistic tip so unless the MV was a lot faster than the 2850 that I get W/the 180gr BT the decreased BC & SD would be a big tradeoff over the 200gr Partition.

In a .308 caliber rifle, lead core bullets lighter than 165gr like 150gr pills seldom shoot as flat @ extended ranges due to rapid velocity loss.

My favorite bullet weights for long range are 140gr in .284, 165gr in .308 & 200gr in .323.

I don't need or want any on your list.

I'd use my 9,3x62 as the any/everything for North America:

I havent been a "one gun hunter" for a long time and dont intend to become one again any time soon. But I do personaly know many one gun hunters. And of them, I know more who pack a 30-06 than all other one gun hunters that I know combined.. A couple of them I advised in their decision. But If I were to reduce the herd to one, I would also give a long hard look at the .308, 35 Whelen and 7X57.

I've used the much maligned Rem and Win factory loads in 8x57 on deer, black bear, moose and zebra with complete satisfaction. A nice well balanced thornbrush caliber IMHO. Just doesn't look like much on paper.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I've used the much maligned Rem and Win factory loads in 8x57 on deer, black bear, moose and zebra with complete satisfaction. A nice well balanced thornbrush caliber IMHO. Just doesn't look like much on paper.

You might as well use a M94 Wichester chambered in 32 Special as that is exactly the power level that the 8X57 is loaded to by Remington & Winchester.

It even uses the same bullets & loaded @ the pathetic pressure levels, it acheives the same MV.

One has to go no further than Sellier & Bellot (sp?) factory loads to get much better performance. 2600ish fps Mv W/a 196gr bullet.

American corporations are so afriad of lawsuits from the remote possibility of inept American knuckle draggers chambering full power 8X57 loads into a M88 Mauser, that they load the 8X57 to such pathetic power levels.

I hazard to guess that my full power loads (or the S&B factory loads) would perform just as well as Rem/Win factory loads under any circumstances & out-perform them in most.

Given the S&B factory load perfprmance I see no advantage in sacrificing almost 1000# of ME & 75yds of effective +or-3" PBR of the Win/Rem loads.

Even @ 3300# of ME, the stock geometry of my rifle results in very mild percieved recoil.

I'm just saying it works as wellnow as they did in the 70s when it was all I could afford. And it doesn't use the same bullets as the 32 Special. No doubt more powerful options are available, but these loads have good bullet performance.

Last I checked, the S&B load was significantly cheaper than Winchester/Remington. I think I paid $18 for the last box I bought. US made 8x57 ammo is up near $30 a box now.

But I won't disagree with you on the performance of the Remington/Winchester load. It works fine, it's just nothing like what the 8x57 is really capable of.

kjjm4
That's for sure that it isn't everything it could be. But there seems to be a feeling or urban legend that the stuff is useless and that just isn't the case at all.

As others say the loadings by US makers for 8x57 are really quite pathetic.

Useless save only as a source of boxer primed cases the "best" thing to do with them is pull the bullets and re-load them to their full potential.

It is even better in its European reamed out to non mil-spec 8x60S version OR in US to 8mm-06 as then you get velocity of the 8x57 at lower pressure.

Just one word of caution. A 200 grain bullet at 2,700 fps in 8x57?

That is way over European factory spec and also way over the Nazi mil-spec for that bullet weight! And THAT was (the universal rifle and MG) 1930s machine gun spec for the MG34 at that too!

In Europe a 196 or 200 grain in the 8x57 is factory spec at about 2,350fps and even that gives fierce recoil!

Also, as a bonus, at that velocity you really don't need an expensive Nosler Partition. Speer's 200 grain Hot Cor works just fine!

The "Magnum" loading by RWS of the larger capacity 8x60S was top power at about 2,600fps.

Do you still have any fillings left in your teeth after shooting?

quote:

Do you still have any fillings left in your teeth after shooting?

If you're being knocked around you should try a different stock/recoil pad. Something is wrong.

The european 196 grain loads I've shot didn't bother me a bit. Nothing close to what I'd call "fierce" in the recoil department. Admittedly, my rifle weighs close to 9 pounds, which tames things down a bit, but I can't imagine the recoil being intolerable even in a 6 pound rifle.

Nosler lists the 200 gr Partition at 2600+ fps out of a 24" barrel in their data:
http://www.nosler.com/Reloadin...user-200-Grains.aspx

With a bit more barrel length and a little luck, I don't think getting close to 2700 fps is totally out of the question.

I wouldn't be too scared to go a little over max in an 8x57 in a 98 Mauser. After all, they are rountinely rebarrelled for '06 based rounds that operate at 60,000+ psi (65,000 for .270 Win) vs the maximum CIP pressure for the 8x57 at 57,000 psi.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
The european 196 grain loads I've shot didn't bother me a bit. Nothing close to what I'd call "fierce" in the recoil department. Admittedly, my rifle weighs close to 9 pounds, which tames things down a bit, but I can't imagine the recoil being intolerable even in a 6 pound rifle.

Nosler lists the 200 gr Partition at 2600+ fps out of a 24" barrel in their data:
http://www.nosler.com/Reloadin...user-200-Grains.aspx

With a bit more barrel length and a little luck, I don't think getting close to 2700 fps is totally out of the question.

I wouldn't be too scared to go a little over max in an 8x57 in a 98 Mauser. After all, they are rountinely rebarrelled for '06 based rounds that operate at 60,000+ psi (65,000 for .270 Win) vs the maximum CIP pressure for the 8x57 at 57,000 psi.

You can't get to 2700 fps W/a 200gr bullet @ SAMMI or CIP pressures, but I'm using a commercial VZ500 Yugoslavian action circa 1960s.

Also, I could not get above the 2600 fps range W/O using the high density Vv N550 powder. N550 yield up to 100 fps better Mv @ similar chamber pressures than most powders including N150 & IMR 4350.

I use 60K PSI models on Quickload to predict MV & indeed I achieved it @ 2gr less than predicted. Bolt lift & extraction is routine, primers look good W/a radius reamaining @ the pocket & case heads look normal.

There is no reason that the 8X57 in a modern action can't be loaded to pressures less than many non magnum factory loads in other chamberings. (65K for 270 Win & 6mm Rem) The brass is the real limiting factor in this scenerio.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:


Just one word of caution. A 200 grain bullet at 2,700 fps in 8x57?

That is way over European factory spec and also way over the Nazi mil-spec for that bullet weight! And THAT was (the universal rifle and MG) 1930s machine gun spec for the MG34 at that too!

In Europe a 196 or 200 grain in the 8x57 is factory spec at about 2,350fps and even that gives fierce recoil!

Also, as a bonus, at that velocity you really don't need an expensive Nosler Partition. Speer's 200 grain Hot Cor works just fine!

Do you still have any fillings left in your teeth after shooting?

The rifle in question weighs 7 1/2# W/a 3-9X40 Leupold VX-2 on 2 piece Leupold bases/rings.

There is no recoil pad, it wears a Neidner steel buttplate. The stock geometry is spot on for disapating felt recoil, not much drop @ the heel W/a bit of cast off.

(see the 5th post on this page for PIX of the rifle & you will see that the stock is very striaght W/the angle of the buttplate such that there is little muzzle rise on recoil)

Although the load is generating 3300ft#s of ME, the recoil is straight back & away from the face. It is very mild in percieved recoil. I find that I can recover fast enough to see the game react on shots @ 240yds or more. It is one of the most pleasant rifles to handle & shoot that I have ever owned. That's why it remains after all my other CF big game rifles were sold to pay bills.

As far as the Speer Hotcores?

I am doing some experimenting W/them, but they seem to exibit pressure signs @ lower Mv.

It seems that about 2650 will be the top end for the Hotcores. No clue why as they are almost identicle in shape to the Partitions & 5gr lighter.

I have not had time to do accuracy testing W/the Hotcores yet. I bought 400 of them as Speer is phasing out the Hotcore line in favor of a bonded premium line of "Deep Curl" bullets.

A bit of insight into Quickload 60K predictions compared to published (Nosler) data.

Last night I went to my loading room & perused my 60K prediction sheet for the 8X57.

I compared the N150 data to that publised in the Nosler table posted above by kjjm4

http://www.nosler.com/Reloadin...user-200-Grains.aspx

Nosler spec's 2635 fps for N160 @ maximum (CIP?) pressure.

My Quickload prediction for a 200gr Partition W/N150 is 2659 fps @ 60K.

Not a whole lot of difference, 24 fps. That seems reasonable for a 3K rise in pressure, perhaps even a bit conservative. I have found that Quickload Mv predictions are surpizingly reliable albiet sometimes a few gr less powder my be needed to attain the predicted Mv.

I rely more on Mv than the actual gr of powder (indicated by a published load table) as a relaible indication of pressure when other physical signs are consistant W/that pressure. There is no "free lunch", a "fast barrel" is a high pressure barrel. IMO


My 60K quickload prediction for N550 was 2723 fps W/55.4gr of Vv N550. My chronographed 2730 fps was achieved W/53.5gr. Going much above that load started to exibit physical pressure signs such as flattened primers.

What I find extremely interesting about the published Nosler data is that they spec the same data for both the Partition & Accubond @ the same COAL.

From personal experience I find that data highly suspect as even when loaded for the same ogive/rifling land relationship, (which would result in a loger COAL) the longer polymer tipped boat-tail designs seldom attain the same MV @ similar pressure due to the longer OA length of the bullet resulting in less usable case volume.

When the long pointed bullet is loaded to the same COAL, the bullet would impinge even more on the case volume. That is the very reason that the 180 Nosler Balistic Tip does not gain nearly as much as a similar weight 180gr flat base design would over the 200gr Partition. (even when the COAL was slightly longer)

I would normally expect to gain about 200 fps when 20gr of bullet weight (in a similarly constructed bullet) is eliminated. The longer 180gr BT bullet only gained 120 fps W/1 more gr of powder.

I have used Quickload to predict loads for over 12 years. My QL is still on a floppy disc!

I always use actual case water volume for predictions as well as actual COAL W/the exact bullet being used & in all of those years, I have only found 1 instance (Norma 203 in an 8mm-06 A.I.) where predicted loads did not corrospond closely to actual real world chronographed results.

As W/any load data, I always back off 10% & work up cautiously.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
And it doesn't use the same bullets as the 32 Special.

You are right, but for all real world results, it is the same bullet, just .002" larger in diameter & round nose instead of flat.

The basic weight & shape are very similar & if it does not have the same internal constuction, that woiuld be surprising as they are both being used in the same MV envelope.

Single shot falling block in 30 caliber (30-06 and up).

Single shot falling block - No rifle carries better or handles better. Short for barrel length, light, quick to bring to target for close shots and accurate for longer shots. Easy to operate, easy to clean, built like a brick you know what.

30 caliber - Must I say more? Great for anything and everything bigger than a bobcat. Although it wasn't one of the calibers listed in the Poll, my choice is 300H&H for many reasons.