7mm Rem mag. It will do anything an 06 will do but better.

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:
7mm Rem mag. It will do anything an 06 will do but better.

I heard that!!!

Truely a magical cartridge!!!

-06 is the most versatile/$$ and always available. If it is some kind of cost function to fill the freezer, that's what I'd go for. Bears? Plenty for blackies, and I'm if I'm providing for my family, I'm not hunting brownies for food.

Otherwise, the 300WM comes a close second for me.

I've shot a bunch of moose to feed my family in Canada with the 7x57 and the .30-06. I consider the .338WM as totally un-needed for moose, and the .30-06 with 200 grain NP RNs as just about ideal. (I still have maybe a thousand of those bullets squirreled away. They also work well on elk, smaller deer, bear, etc.) The moose is one of the easier deer to kill...not necessarily easy to find right when and where you want one, but easy to kill.

quote:

The moose is one of the easier deer to kill...not necessarily easy to find right when and where you want one, but easy to kill.

AC I have killed a grand total of 1 moose, something I hope to change in the future.

I think the problem, is that too many people have fallen into the DRT concept.

Someone, whether an Outdoor writer/gun hack or someone on an internet forum has pontificated about ALL shots should drop the intended target on the spot. People, especially inexperienced people buy into that and base their opinion on a cartridghe's worth on those 1 shot, dead on the spot kills, that were more accident than anything else.

If a person shoots enough critters, something, and from my experience, the least likely candidate will takle an inordinatye amount of time to die no matter what it was hit with.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

The moose is one of the easier deer to kill...not necessarily easy to find right when and where you want one, but easy to kill.

AC I have killed a grand total of 1 moose, something I hope to change in the future.

I think the problem, is that too many people have fallen into the DRT concept.

Someone, whether an Outdoor writer/gun hack or someone on an internet forum has pontificated about ALL shots should drop the intended target on the spot. People, especially inexperienced people buy into that and base their opinion on a cartridghe's worth on those 1 shot, dead on the spot kills, that were more accident than anything else.

If a person shoots enough critters, something, and from my experience, the least likely candidate will takle an inordinatye amount of time to die no matter what it was hit with.

Crazy Horse -

I think you have hit on something with that DRT concept.

If an animal drops DRT every time, then obviously the shooter isn't going to need to learn basic hunting skills such as tracking. So the lazy hunter (or the insecure one regards his abilities) often loves that idea.

The truth is, even if an animal does drop right there, it isn't necessarily dead yet. Yes, it will likely die in from 30 seconds to 10 minutes, depending on why it dropped right there (where it was standing when hit), and once in a rare while, to some degree with what.

But anyone with much moose hunting experience will observe that the moose is often dead for up to a minute before it realizes it.

Then it will fall over. That is true for both the .338 WM and the .30-06, and for that matter, with the .375 H&H.

Of all the moose I have shot with the 7x57 or .30-06, I have never had one fall DRT (though several have fallen within a yard of where they were when shot), but I have never had one travel more than 15 yards afterward either. Even if they are not very quickly dead, moose tend to head for the nearest thick bush to lie down in and try to hide (and nurse their wound?), usually facing their backtrail.

And if they can, they seem to keep their heads up trying to find and/or watch out for the thing which hurt them. Even when hurt very, very badly and with their head down, it is danged hard to hide 1,500 pounds of moose with a hatrack attached on top his head if the hunter was not shooting something which completely prevented him from seeing the moose flee after the shot while he pulled the gun back down out of recoil.

Patience is important throughout the hunt, including after the shot. I think it is also important to use a cartridge which gives one the advantages of being big enough to be deadly if well aimed and small enough to maximize observation during and after the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I think it is also important to use a cartridge which gives one the advantages of being big enough to be deadly if well aimed and small enough to maximize observation during and after the shot.

This is about a 25-06 with lighter bullets if you want to view your recoil.

Even a 270 or 308 doesn't allow this.

Maybe a .30-06 doesn't allow YOU to do it, Corey, but I never had any trouble with it with my '06 shots on moose using Nosler Partition 200 grain slugs. I was able to see hair, dust, or water fly where and as the bullets hit them.

I've also seen the same thing with my 7x65R and 11.5 gram (177 grain) RWS factory loaded bullets on a number of elk here in the 'States.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
.....use a cartridge which gives one the advantages of being big enough to be deadly if well aimed and small enough to maximize observation during and after the shot.

The only DRT moose I've seen was standing in the water at the time it was shot. Contrary critters!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Heck, Phil even guides brownies with an '06

I don't know if I'd be comfortable wading into the willows and alders after a wounded Brownie with a 30-06 either.

I would and have... Loaded with 200NP's, it will flatten any bear on the planet with enough penetration to break one down.

Moose are easier to kill than a brown bear, and 200NP's easily flatten them too...

DM

On the MOOSE venue---They take exactely 1 minute and 57 seconds to die.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Heck, Phil even guides brownies with an '06

I don't know if I'd be comfortable wading into the willows and alders after a wounded Brownie with a 30-06 either.

I would and have... Loaded with 200NP's, it will flatten any bear on the planet with enough penetration to break one down.

Moose are easier to kill than a brown bear, and 200NP's easily flatten them too...

DM

I'd have to agree. 200+ grain heavily constructed bullets like the 200 NP, 220 NP, 220 Woodleigh etc have good penetration and will reach bear vitals from almost any angle. Hell, a 220gr 30-06 has over 25% more SD than a 250gr 375 bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
The only DRT moose I've seen was standing in the water at the time it was shot. Contrary critters!

Yeh, it's one of the pranks the Red Gods like to play on us nimrods, eh? One doesn't know "heavy" or "awkward" until he has tried to pull a limp 1,500 lb. moose out of a beaver pond! (Kind of like a 7-foot long burlap bag full of 1,500 pounds of wet grass clippings would be if it had 6-foot long legs attached to it and was slick on the outside.)


After the first time I had to take one out of water, I would tell everyone hunting with me "You kill one in the water, and Im gonna sit there and have a beer, watch for bears, and eventually eat lunch while YOU get him out. BY YOURSELF!

Of the caliber's you've listed, my choice would be a 30-06. If we can add one to the list, my all around, do it all rifle would be a 9.3x62.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
The only DRT moose I've seen was standing in the water at the time it was shot. Contrary critters!

Yeh, it's one of the pranks the Red Gods like to play on us nimrods, eh?

After the first time I had to take one out of water, I would tell everyone hunting with me "You kill one in the water, and Im gonna sit there and have a beer, watch for bears, and eventually eat lunch while YOU get him out. BY YOURSELF!

Funny stuff. But sometimes it works the other way. Buddy and I were the last group at an Alberta moose camp. I had read most everything on moose being tough to drop, ie., keep shooting till it's down, etc. My one shot (.300/180NP) was nearly facing. DRT doesn't quite cover it - I actually heard and felt the thud from 75 yds. First thing my guide did was hug me - I was the first/only person that season to drop one right on a survey trail. My buddy did the exact same thing a few days later with a .338, think we made the guy's millennium.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Biggs300:
Of the caliber's you've listed, my choice would be a 30-06. If we can add one to the list, my all around, do it all rifle would be a 9.3x62.

I totally agree !

My one rifle battery for NA would be a 300 WSM in Kimber Montana, super light to carry over any terrain and plenty of power for elk and moose. Plus well under MOA with my handloads.

Also works great as my plains game rifle for Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
I'd choose 30-06 until Moose or Brown Bears are mentioned...

Then I'd go with the 338Mag

The 30-06 is more than plenty for moose; however, for fall moose I bring my 375 H&H because there are still alot of brown bears around.

If I'm depending on my kills to feed my wife and 5 kids, I'll be hunting whitetail deer. Times tough enough to need to hunt to live are tough enough to mean its hard to heat the house (or tent, or cardboard box) in any area that has Moose, Caribou, or big bears. Who ever heard of subsistence Grizzly hunting, anyway?

Give me a 30-06. It works for deer or pigs. Anyone who gets in my way and shoots too slow, chances are they have 30-06 ammo in their recently vacated Mad-Max dune buggy.

Out of what I have in my safe, I'd probably have to say my Ruger 350 Rem Mag. There isn't much a 200 TTSX at 3,000 FPS can't do. Close to mid range, a 250 Partition should handle a big bear.

If they ever produce a 200 grain TTSX or Accubond in 9.3, the decision would be a lot harder with my CZ 9.3x62 sitting in the safe.

I voted 300 mag because I have killed more game with mine than any of my other rifles. That said I would take a 30-06 and better yet a .308 in a true disaster situation. Being so broke and desolate I have to live off of what I kill pretty much means I am not living in my home and able to reload so I better be able to use easy to come by ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

If they ever produce a 200 grain TTSX or Accubond in 9.3, the decision would be a lot harder with my CZ 9.3x62 sitting in the safe.

You can have a 220 gr. Lapua Naturalis (long range)copper bullet in your 9.3x62 and it's an excellent flat shooting hunting bullet.

I would like to 'play'.

I voted for the .30-06.

My reasons / assumptions were:

1) The person is already a keen shooter and has at least one reliable, bolt action, 'scoped rifle.

2) The person is sufficiently interested / competent to reload their own ammunition, has at least some basic reloading kit.

3) The person lives in the lower 48 States, so will be hunting freezer sized deer only (Whitetail or Mule Deer types).

4) The person lives in a dwelling with electricity and space to enable them to have a large chest freezer to store the meat.

While reloading cuts your shooting costs considerably, by choosing cartridges / components on the vanilla ice cream scale of things, 'parts' are both readily available & economical.

So, .30-06 brass & .30 and /or .338 heads. I shoot a .338-06 and even here, the basic Speer 200 grn and Sierra 215 grain heads are very reasonably priced, compared to the Hornady 225 grain & Nosler offerings.

For a .30-06, I would opt for soft-ish 165 grain heads with good quality brass that I was going to get 5 - 7 reloadings from.

There are many, not overly expensive rifles out there, which with tuning, will produce under 1.25 - 1.0 inch groups. The second hand market might enable you to pick up Mauser. The Zastava Mausers are a good deal, especially, if like me, you are left handed.

If you were being forced to downsize, then the sale of all your other stuff could subsidize a new 'meat rifle'.

For the scope, I would opt for something like a fixed 6x42 Leupold or a Zeiss 3-9x40 MC. Again, check the secondhand market and 'shop demonstrator' stock.

Depending where you lived, an accurate, scoped .22 LR would keep you fed on deer and smaller game birds.

I used a .300Wm on those critters. A .270 or .280 or .30-06 would work as well. I just like my .300...

The Winnie...but an 8mm Rem Mag will do everything any of them will do from 150 to 275 grains.

.223 and 6.5 R-Bar roger

30-06 is the obvious choice, especially with today's super bullets.
375 H&H is number two. A 235 TSX shoots as flat as a 180 06 and when it gets serious 300 gr and up will handle anything. It was designed by real hunters in nasty places so it always feeds, always headspaces and always ejects. The 375 Ruger was designed by engineers in a clean room to allow Ruger to duplicate (at higher pressures) 375 H&H performance in a 30-06 action, thus allowing Ruger to drop the RSM which was too expensive to make and had a very limited market.
We miss you Bill .......

quote:

The 375 Ruger was designed by engineers in a clean room to allow Ruger to duplicate (at higher pressures) 375 H&H performance in a 30-06 action,

That is incorrect prejudice, and malaigns some good engineers.

First, both the 375HH and the 375Ruger were designed by good engineers, obviously.

Secondly, the Ruger has MORE case capacity than the HH, which means that it can do MORE than the HH,

or, if the perspective is turned around, it can equal the HH ballistically with LESS pressure.

And there are some negatives to belted cartridges that have spawned a reversed industry direction over the last two+ decades.
Thank you Dakota, Lapua, Rigby, Ruger, RUM, and even the WSM!

Any monkeying with the basic physics is just advertising hype and the 375 Ruger's physics are sterling and solid.

I would be a fan and a user of the 375Ruger if it had come out 40 years ago and if I didn't enjoy and use my 338 WM's so much.
Come to think of it, the 338 WM is sort of a cross between the 30-06 and the 375H&H. Very very nice. The 338WM is a popular-demand winner for the NorthAmerican all-around 'heavy medium'. (The only thing imaginably better didn't happen--taking the full 375Ruger and necking down to 338 for a ballistic twin of the 340Weatherby in a "30-06" action. Maybe the admin who were calling the shots were afraid of public perception and aversion to a higher level of moderate recoil.) In any case there are a lot of happy 338WM users out there. Most of them have learned that the recoil is tame, the trajectories flat, and bullet selection great, so that the 338 possesses a wonderful balance of medium-wide, penetrating bullets and high BCs for a light sporting rifle. Yes, the 30-06 is great, and can be sped up in a 300 or added power in a 375. The 338WM just sits between them all, enjoying all the fruit of their individual advantages. It's a very nice rifle to have in one's hands in the woods, on a mountain, or out on the plains.

Long after the 375 Ruger has joined all the current hot numbers on the special order shelf, the 375 H&H will soldier on since it has since 1912. I would guess you have never studied or understood why a belted cartridge with a tapered body is far superior for when your life is on the line to any short, fat, sharp shouldered cartridge. When it comes to working in adverse conditions there is nothing superior to a belted cartridge, except pehaps a rimmed one in a multi barreled rifle. Yup the Ruger will work in a clean rifle, with clean ammo as will a SAUM or WSM, but when the SHTF, H&H has forgotten more about cartridge design and the killing of tens of thousand of heads of game worldwide than Ruger ever will. They have 1000s of letters on file from hunters who killed more game than all of us will ever see. They listened as the results show.
You are convinced, so be it. I'll take a nice CZ square bridge Mauser in 375 H&H over any short Magnum. The only rifle Ruger made that came close was the RSM, which they now dropped due to the bean counters. You enjoy your dangerous game cartridges that headspace on the shouder.
On your 338 WM have you ever wondered why it is belted ? Ever done a chamber cast and noted how far back the factory shoulder is from the chamber's ? Ever wondered why all the sharp shouldered belted mags have such short case life ? It's all been explained many times in Rifle and Handloader so I'll let you research it on your own. By contrast 300 and 375 H&Hs last forever.
Wonder why ? Ever look at a 32-40 ?

quote:

I'll take a nice CZ square bridge Mauser in 375 H&H over any short Magnum.

Before going forward, you might acknowledge and offer a thank you the correction on your pressure attributions for the 375HH and 375Ruger designs.

More beneficial and of mutual admiration, we agree on CZ actions and designs.
I enjoy walking the forests with my CZ 416Rigbys. Wonderful, strong, plain-jane hunting rifles, Wonderful calibre. Also, I'm building a "standard" length 500 AccR, but on a Ruger Hawkeye. But all this applies to Africa, Neither carries a belt, but most everyone loves the Rigby if they have one. Nice rifle to have in Africa.

As for belted advantages, I suppose it's too bad for the 30-06 slogging through all the muddy fields its been through. Not. I think it has an even longer list of supporters. Will the Ruger stand the test of time against the 375HH? Maybe. However, if it had come out in 1912 and the HH in 2008, I would not give the HH much of a chance. "They listened as the results show" is anachronistic. H&H couldn't listen to results before they happened. Ruger has been listening, though. Meanwhile, the 375HH remains a great calibre.
The choice becomes: when a CZ 375HH and a CZ 416 Rigby, both accurately and optimally handloaded, are placed in front of me and ready for a walk in the mopane, which do I grab? The 416.

Something similar happens in NorthAmerica. If a 30-06, 338WM, and 375HH, all accurately and optimally handloaded, were presented to me, which would I grab if only allowed one for the foreseable hunting future? The 338WM.

Your choices may freely differ.

PS: the 375Ruger is a great design, and I say that even though I don't use one.

I would get a frickin job and borrow my brothers 06'. This country is in trouble.s

"PS: the 375Ruger is a great design, and I say that even though I don't use one."

That's a classic. I think Will Rogers made a comment like that about the basis of his knowledge.

416 Rigby does everything the Ruger does not, most importantly, operating at low pressures.

Compare it to the 416 Remington and you get the same answer from Remington. "Lets shove a big bore cartridge in a smaller action and worry about functioning and pressures later."

As for H&H, I suppose you have never see/owned/shot/hunted the new 400 H&H. It is yet another winner from Bond St. (yes I own one, not made by H&H). My last visit to NYC was enhanced by my usual visit to H&H NYC and the chance to fondle a brand new magazine rifle in 400 H&H.
Most folks would look at it and not see anything special, but it certainly was. Sad to say, Obama has not sent me my "renewable energy" check so I could not take one home for $45,000.00.

quote:

416 Rigby does everything the Ruger does not, most importantly, operating at low pressures.

You mention pressure again with the Ruger but not H&H. Why? The 375 Ruger has a larger capacity than the 375H&H, which means that for equal muzzle velocities it will operate at LOWER pressures than 375HH. If this isn't acknowledged there is no conversation.

As for the 416Rigby, when I mentioned optimally handloaded rounds for the 416 Rigby, that includes loads that go up to 6100 ftlbs. 400 grain bullets, if constructed strongly, can be launched at 2600 fps, and 350 grain bullets at 2800 fps. Naturally, this is for modern brass, with modern bullets, and a modern magnum action like the CZ 550 Safari. These loads are still under any pressure signs, even when 350 grains have been run up over 2900 fps (64000 ftlbs) and fired in a noon African sun. I see no problem in having modern cartridges at 60k psi. Which is what most of the plains game rifles operate at. The Rigby is a large cartridge and if one wants to get an idea of its capacities look at the 416Weatherby. OConnor didn't like the recoil of the Rigby at 6000 ftlbs, but at least he recognized its true character. If someone wants slower, SAAMI Rigby velocities, then let them shoot the 416 Remington, though at similar pressures to the optimal handloaded 416Rigby.

375 H&H. I'll spare you all the argumentative points. They've been covered above. Just a great, proven caliber, and the one I'd best trust against brown bear. If no bear were on the list, I'd probably shift my vote to 300 WM.

I picked the .30-06. I hunt whitetails and blackbears on a yearly basis, and the '06 works great for both of those. Elk and Moose might be something I'd hunt 3-4 times in my life, and I doubt I'll ever hunt brown bears.

Well put. As the old saying goes:"If you can't get it done with a 30-06, maybe you should not be trying it."
As far as Brown Bears goes, apparently nobody reads Phil Shoemaker. Does anyone doubt that a 200 gr TSX or a 240 gr Woodleigh in a 30-06 would not kill a Brownie ?
Many of the dudes we see coming to Wyoming to hunt are over gunned, over scoped and have read too much BS and watched to many canned hunt videos on the Outdoor Channel. They are infected with "sniperitis" rather than having the ancient skills of hunting.
You can never be too close by using camo, cover and wind. This Elk (my best) was killed at 18 paces in a jungle with an 1809 British 61 caliber flintlock rifle (hanging under it). My last Antelope (an ancient buck) was killed at 90 paces with a 45 caliber Whitworth replica in open sagebrush public land. Yet we continue to read about 500 yard Elk and 600 yard Antelope.
If I were king, every hunter would have to be a bow hunter (not crossbows) for 5 years before being allowed to pick up a rifle. The skills gained in that sport make hunters not sniper wannabes. That's my $.02 based on 50+ years afield in NY, CA, PA, CO, ID and WY.

Actually I have run into financial difficulties myself.

I have sold all of my high powerwed centerfires except for 1 & all that is left is my 8X57IS.

Sold the 280 & 7mm-08.

Niether would do anything @ 300 yds as well as the 8X57 pushing a 200gr Partition @ 2700+ FPS.

I would venture to say that the '06 would not do any better than a properly loaded 8X57IS.

Yes the good old 8x57 .323 gets no respect.
May I suggest you try the 185 TSX also at 2700, will be more accurate and give you a better overall wound channel.
The 160 TSX can touch 2900 and will kill just as dead is the 185 if your rifle likes it.
Then there's the 250 gr Woodleigh .... wow

I'm still hoarding some 197 gr spire point cartridges made as machine gun loads. The bullet looks like a Berger and they do 2800 in my Persian 8x57 rifle !

I think the 8x57 doesn't get respect because a lot of people have only seen/used the 170 grain loads from Winchester and Remington that are about equal to a .30-30. When loaded to its full potential, the 8x57 is just as good as the .30-06, and is certainly adequate for anything in North America.

I'm in the middle of turning a Yugo m48 into a sporter. If I get it done in time, I'm probably going to use it for deer this fall. I haven't had time to work up a load for it, so I'm probably just going to use the 196 grain S&B loading.