I am going to buy a new rifle for my wife and son. They will use the rifle to shoot deer at 200 yards or less and for a lot of range practice. I want a low recoil round (15 lbs recoil energy at most) that is accurate. I am considering the .243, 7mm-08, and 270 Winchester (the Savage 116 FSAK with adjustable muzzle break to keep recoil down). I want an off the shelf rifle with good brass and bullet availability. I dont care for the bullet selection in .25 caliber and have excluded it for these reasons. Any thought or opinions would be appreciated.

Hi Elkhunter,

My wife's rifle is a M70 Featherweight in 243 Win. She is quite recoil sensative, but does very well with this combination.

Persenaly im i like my .270WSM in a model 16 savage. But im also a heavy muscle person even though im 15. I dont like muzzle breaks they hurt my ears when i shoot them. I would suggest a .243WSSM for the added umph. A 25-06 has very light recoil too. anything around that in about an 8 pound rifle should have very little recoil.

Currently using a 7mm-08 I am a little bias to that round, however, I used a .243 for many years before purchasing my 7mm-08. If you are going to reload, the 243 with 85 grain Barnes TSX would make a great and light kicking deer rifle. There are many good quality factory loads for it also, the availability of 7mm-08 factory loads leaves something to be desired.

I would stay away from the 270, it kicks more than my lightweight 7mm-08 and muzzle blast from a brake would be VERY LOUD.

I ran across a used Kimber 84M in 243 that would be a great deer gun but the light weight may make it kick a little more than you want. A Remington Model 700 in Mountain Rifle or Mountain LSS, CDL, SPS, SPS SS or Model 7 LS would make a great off the shelf gun.

The .243 is a geat varmint round but the 7-08 is a better choice for deer size game IMHO. You can load down to recoil levels near the .243 for practice & have a better choice of bullets for deer size game. A Rem. M700 Ntn. or M7, Ruger UL. would be a good place to start. Don't over look the .260 as well, lots of bullets & brass can be made from .243 in a pinch.

My wife shoots a 6.5mm Swede and my 12 year old granddaughter shoots a 7mm-08. Both rifles weight in a 8.75 lbs. complete(sling, scope, ammo). My granddaughter is 5'7", weights 119 lbs. and my wife is about the same size(she would ruin me for telling her age/weight). My daughter in-law is about the same size and she shoots a M70 Coyote in .25 WSSM. These three calibers nor any of the other you mentioned, don't need a muzzle brake as they don't recoil enough to warrent one. Not even for smaller women. Forget the brake and get a 7mm-08. Lawdog

An overly long rifle is difficult for a smaller-framed person to handle. Considering this, go with either of the shorter cartridges as the .270 uses an action that is 3/4" to an inch longer and weighs some bit more.

If recoil is a big consideration, go with the .243 (particulaly if you reload). It is as effective on deer-sized game at under 200 yards as just about any rifle. But the 7mm-08 isn't a "bruiser", if you prefer it.

DO NOT UNDER any circumstance get a rifle with a muzzle brake. They are dangerously loud (they even largely defeat ear protectors), and the muzzle blast is almost always more distracting to the neophyte shooter than is the recoil, and is more likely to create a flinch than is recoil itself. In other words, if your goal is to lessen the ill effects on the shooter of firing the gun, then the muzzle brake is self-defeating.

Women's and children's faces are smaller and thinner, so be sure to mount the scope absolutely as low on the receiver as clearance will allow (the thickness of a cigarette paper is plenty!) in order for them to place their cheeks firmly against the comb when sighting through the scope. A scope that's mounted too tall causes the shooter's head to bob and weave around in space while their eye seeks the sight picture. Use a scope with a moderate size objective bell (or no bell at all), so you can keep it low, low, low and to avoid the extra weight that a big scope adds. A fixed power scoped will be simpler, more foolproof, weigh less, and cost less.

If the shooters are small and have shorter arms, you certainly want to cut the stock back to the proper length, but don't forget the barrel. For a kid's gun, I like a barrel no longer than about 20" so the gun can be balanced. If the buttstock is not already hollowed out, do so to reduce weight slightly.

Lots of good advice here. I especially like Stonecreek's comments on scope mounting. I do question the short barrel idea. If you skip the muzzlebrake because of noise then maybe you should investigate how loud a 20" barrel is vs. a 22" or 24" barrel.

I'd go for a moderate weight 7-08. I've looked at the Savage (Weather Warrior) and that's pretty light naked. A common sense scope wouldn't add that much more. If the users are short you might kill 2 birds with one stone by putting on a shorter but slightly heavier stock.

Hope you find something suitable. We should all be working at introducing people to shooting, even if only to show them we're nothing like the liberal pansies portray us.

elkhuntr,
I feel experienced enough with the 243 to comment on this one. I've killed a lot of deer with 85 and 95 gr partitions out of the 243. Most were one shot kills. But, I'm not sure they are a good beginners gun. The 243 relies on good shot placement. That can be hard for anyone. Just recently I decided to give a 7=08 a try. With the 120 BAllistic Tips the recoil is defintely within your range. With a hot load and 140's the recoil level would be getting up there in my 6lb Model 7. I solved your dilemna with a cartridge that you haven't mentioned. I bought a Model 7 youth rifle in 260. I can see practically no difference in recoil, with up to 120 gr loads, than from a 243. Jane, who is a small framed woman shoots this round very comfortably.

knobmtn

I would advise against a muzzle break also as they can have a similar effect on a shooter as recoil. Mild handloads and a good recoil pad are a better alternative.

Any of the rounds mentioned should be fine as you obviously roll your own. But I would also add that a 7X57 allows anther desirable dimension to such a choice, low recoiling factory rounds. Of corse the same is true for the 243..

7mm-08

If you handload and want a 7mm-08 then a 120 bullet at 2900 has 14 fpr. The Ballistic Tip works well for us on deer.

There is quite a bit less recoil with a 120 vrs a 140 in cartridges like that.

My first choice for this application is the 260 Rem. It is very shootable for the lighter framed with 100 gr bullets and is very lethal on deer with the 120 or 140 gr bullets.
If this cartridge is not available in the rifle model of your choice, I would choose the 7-08 and shoot 140 gr bullets.
I feel the 243 is very light to use as a dedicated deer rifle, especially for beginning shooters. And the 270 is heavier than needed for close range deer hunting.

If you handload...

7mm-08 - Speer 130 BT @ 2750
Rifle: Winchester 70 classic featherweight.

260 Rem - Speer 120 @ 2750
Rifle: Kimber 84

Look at the 257 Roberts and 25-06 - both are more flexible in bullet choice than the dubious 243.

257 Roberts, 260. 6.5 Swede. 7x57, 7-08, you won't go wrong with any of these.

Elk hunter, I think anyone of your choices would be great for the wife and kids. What most people miss when they start looking for a rifle for thier kids (and spouse) is they concentrate on the cartridge and not the rifle. I've owned 4 different .270's since I started hunting. 2 of them hurt when I squeezed the trigger. One was about what you'd expect a .270 to feel like and the last one is a pleasure to shoot. If it was me, I'd look around for a straight combed McMillan stock (new or used) cut it to length and put a good recoil pad on it and buy a rifle to fit that stock. I'm not sure how they do it, but I've never used a stock that had the ability to absorb recoil like the McMillan does.

A slim contour 24" pipe would be my choice for the barrel. It's amazing how much quiter the extra 2-4" will make the gun. No brake will be needed.

On the weight issue, most people think thier youth rifle should be light. This is a misconception also. The lighter the gun, the harder it'll be to shoot accuratly. It will also kick harder. I'd set a target weight at about 7.5-8.5 lbs scoped. After all, you just need to get the gun from your truck to your hunting spot.

I went through this a few years ago. After I bought and sold a NEF Youth model in .243 and a Remington Model#7 in 7-08. I realized it wasn't the bullets causing the grief, it was the rifles. Now they hunt with a .270 Mauser in a McMillan stock with the scope pulled all the way back.

Terry

This is what it's all about! I got more excited about this one than any deer I've ever killed myself. I'm truly a blessed man.

My standard recommendation for a low recoil but reliably effective round on deer that fits in a short, lightweight rifle is the .260 Remington. I use the 125-grain Nosler Partition at 2700 fps in my handloads for my synthetic-stocked Model Seven, and so far it has dropped four deer with one shot; two dropped in their tracks and the other two didn't make it past 20 yards. The 140-grain and 160-grain bullets are available if your deer run to the large end of the scale, and the 160 in particular has a well-earned reputation for deep penetration at modest velocities and would be suitable for elk or moose (ask any Scandinavian hunter).

My 12 year old son uses a Remington 700 Youth in 7mm-08 with a 20 inch barrel. (Apparently, it’s no longer cataloged by Remington but still is available in various places.) We replaced the youth stock with a full size wood take off purchased off this forum and added a Decelerator pad, and the LOP and scope eye relief is adjusted for him assuming he is wearing a PAST recoil shield or heavy clothing. He practices off the bench using a PAST recoil shield. For a deer load, he is shooting 140 grain Nosler ballistic tips in front of 39 grains of RL15, new WW brass and CCI standard primers, and the load clocks right at 2400 fps. out of his gun. The BC on the round is good and the load is scary accurate. He got his first deer, a Louisiana whitetail at 155 yards, with it in November. I calculate the recoil energy at 9 lbs and the recoil velocity at 8 lbs. You could load a lot heavier than that if you think your son and wife can handle 15 lbs of recoil energy. In fact, standard 140 grain factory loadings should be under 15 lbs at published velocities, assuming a standard weight rifle. The 7mm-08 gives more flexibility than the .243 if the same rifle may be used for elk. I am just starting to work up loads for the rifle with 140 grain Triple Shocks.

When I look in my safe, I find that my wife shoots my PPC on Antelope (falling block Brown -- I want it back!) and a 280 Tikka on elk and long range deer. My boy shoots a 270 Sig for deer and elk.

For deer, a 243 is plenty. That said, I do believe, especially since you are from Montana, that a bigger bullet is probably indicated, just in case (bears, elk tags, etc.)

Like the other said, the cartridge is essentially last on the list. Rifle comes first, ammo cost comes second. If you aren't a handloader, the cost of ammo is a huge difference.

For that reason, I'd suggest the 308 (if you don't handload). Plenty of low recoil practice ammo out there. In the field, they'll never feel the recoil. They could shoot a 300WBY on a deer, and they would not complain.

As far as the rifle is concerned, absolutely, positively no muzzle break. Not in a field gun. Instead, lots of practice with low powered handloads. JMO, Dutch.

Been there, done that! tried all the above, plus. What has worked for this crowd was the Sav mod 99 in 250-3000. Mpi now sells a set of glass replacement stocks and will cut to length and add a pad for you. Great killing ctg. You can find these rifles used at the gun shows cheap. No it ain't sexy but sure works great!! IMHO

I'm a .270 Win. fan myself, but I also like the 7mm-08 for women and young shooters, or anyone who wants a solid deer and pronghorn rifle, yet doesn't want to deal with much recoil. The 7mm-08 offers the best of a lot of worlds: Great accuracy, light recoil, enough bullet mass to get some attention on the other end, wide bullet selection, etc. It's like a modern 7X57, only with more consistent brass quality and better inherent accuracy as a rule, plus better rifle selection.

AD

Has anyone shot a 25 WSSM? It should have performance equal to the 25-06 in a short action. It also has less recoil (around 10 lbs).

I think a 308 is better. Put a recoil reducer in the stock and make sure they shoot with ear protectors and a PAST recoil pad when shooting from the bench. That said, I am having a 7-08 on a Sako action ,22"Douglas bbl and B&C stock made up for deer/hogs because I like 7mm anything. Get a heavy enough rifle to absorb reciol too. Some of the really light ones are difficult to keep on target Be sure you get something that they like and that fits. I saw a Full stcked Ruger in 250-3000 that might be good too. It sold before I could call. LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by elkhunter:
Has anyone shot a 25 WSSM? It should have performance equal to the 25-06 in a short action. It also has less recoil (around 10 lbs).

---

All the cartridges discussed so far will recoil between 9 and 11 lbs., not much difference if you ask me. You need to be looking at the rifles.

Terry

I know this is not one of your choices, but I'll throw it in as an alternative for those on a budget. It is a rifle made for small people, shoots a widely available round, is not necessary to hand load for, has moderate recoil, can be found for around $150 most places, is as accurate as needed for the under 100 yard shots most of us try to get beginners to take, and has easy to use iron sights for those who want to teach their children to use them before graduating to scopes.

Slightly flinching but nominating the ubiquitous SKS in 7.62x39. Inserts can also be used for your 30 cal bolt actions, or American makes do chamber it at this time.

This is what my wife got and it fits her perfectly, not just a shorter LOP but an overall scaled down Featherweight. Itss called the Compact. I put a Leupold 2-7 Compact on it and its just about perfect. Hers is a 7mm-08, get some sierra 100 gr HP's for practice.

7-08 would be my suggestion. You can load it down to 7-30 Waters level of power pretty easy using the reduced loads from Hogdon, or even lower using cast bullets for lots of cheap range practice. Lots of good bullet choices for deer from any manufacturer.

Just did a little swaping around, got the daughter a Remington CDL 7mm-08. It has a 24" barrel, and remingtons "R3" recoil pad. Now I have to replace the wifes .243 with another CDL 7mm-08. It has less "felt recoil" than the .243, and in my opinion, is a much more potent round.

I have a CDL in 280 and that "R3" recoil pad is the best I've ever used.

.270

More flexible if you're after big game - anything deer size or better.

However if your game is coyote and smaller, probably 6mm range.

As for 7mm/08, nice cartrige but not as flexible as the .270 and more than you need for small varmints. Not as easy to find ammo for as a .270, and not nearly as many bullet weights. A .270 will do anything a 7mm/08 will but not vica versa.

Just IMO. Good luck whatever you choose.

Three thoughts. You might want to check out the band new Win. SS M.70 Classic Featherlight. It comes in some very interesting calibers (6.5X55, 7mm08 .243WSSM & 25 WSSM etc.), the wooden stock would be easy to shorten, and stainless steel is less effort for a new shooter to maintain.

You'll want your new hunters to experiece quick, clean kills. I think for the shooting you want to do a .243 is minimal. I bought one for my 11 yr. old and he uses it at 12 yr.s later, but it only shoots light bullets really accurately and that limits his effective range for sure, clean kills with 100gr. bullets to @150 yrd.s small to medium whitetails.

I wouldn't be spooked by a muzzle-brake for a small shooter. You'd always use ear protection on the range with any gun, and a muzzle-brake's lower recoil makes accurate shooting easier. Ear protection when hunting is not hard to use. I use it with some guns for some kinds hunting. The Browning BOSS system on a Winchester or an A-bolt would let you use the muzzle brake and ear protection when shooting practicing, or to hunt using the compensator and no ear protection. The aimpoint doesn't change.

I would advise against a muzzle brake, I had one on a 270 and it was rough. It will really make your ears ring when shot in the field. As for caliber, the 7mm-08 looks the best from where I'm sittin, even though I have never owned one. I have already been thinking about getting one for my daughter, no hurry though, she's only 8 mos old.

quote:

---

As for caliber, the 7mm-08 looks the best from where I'm sittin, even though I have never owned one. I have already been thinking about getting one for my daughter, no hurry though, she's only 8 mos old.

---

And when she is old enough to start shooting the 6.5x55 will still be going strong, doing anything the 7mm-08 will do with less recoil. Its' only "disadvantage" is that it requires a long action to be able to seat the bullets out to where they should be. For a deer capable cartridge for the recoil sensitive, the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser is my first choice, but then I have only owned .243 winchesters, a 7mm-08, a .270 win., a 30-06 and a .270WSM. Could be that the 250 Savage, the .257 Roberts or the 25-06 might be better, but I doubt it. At least for my boys, the answer is old, tested and true. As Jackie Gleason would have put it: "How Swede it is!"

7-08! On the ballistic heels of the 270 with less recoil and can be used in lighter rifles. I have a Kimber 84m in 7-08 and truly love it. Perfect rifle for wife/kid/me.

Beware too light a rifle. If you have a friend that owns a simlilar rifle I would borrow it and get them both shooting it a little before you buy one.

I recomend you try a few rifles. I have a friend that used a Remington M7 in 260 and then switched to a Remington M700 LSS mountain rifle in the same caliber.

Recoil is everything when they are of smaller stature.

I remember I got started on a R77 30-06. Too heavy a gun, too much recoil.

Given the cartridges you noted I'd go with the
270Win. Good selection of ammo, as well as a
variety of rifles. However, for the recoil limit you mentioned I'd also take a look at the
6.5x55 Swede. Very mild. Take a look at the
Winchester Featherweight.
Forget the muzzle brakes.

I never was a big fan of the .243Win. for deer. They get pretty large up this way, but with the Nosler Partition and the Hornady SST available I've pretty much changed my mind. However, I still prefer the 6.5x55. I have one in a Remington Classic, and it's a real sweetheart. Available bullets are from 85 to 160grs., recoil is relatively light, and everything I've fired in mine is accurate. Up here on a deer hunt you're always apt to encounter moose. I got old bullwinkle last year with it using a 160gr. SPSP (round nose to me). The heavier bullets in this caliber raise merry olde hell with an animals boiler room. All around it's a top notch caliber. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

since you are a handloader you should consider a 7mmx57. you can shorten the stock & possably
add weight to ballance the gun. then download
any load 4 to 6 grains. the recoil reduction is amazing, try this with any of your rifles amd see for yourself.

Gezzer

quote:

---

Originally posted by BBBruce:
.270

As for 7mm/08, nice cartrige but not as flexible as the .270 and more than you need for small varmints. Not as easy to find ammo for as a .270, and not nearly as many bullet weights. A .270 will do anything a 7mm/08 will but not vica versa.

---

I disagree (sorry) try finding a production bullet in 160gr. (Or 175 gr.) in .277 dia.. Also I think there are just about twice as many bullets/weights in .284 dia. than for the 270.

Don't get me wrong I like the 270 (have one) but for me it's 7x57 (and probably 7mm-08 in the future?) in this caliber range.

The 7mm-08 also has less recoil than the 270 for the same bullet weight, at least it feels that way to me. Though I might not be a good judge as I'm mostly a 375 H&H (and up) shooter and recoil doesn't bother me a great deal.

Roi

7mauser with the Barnes 120 gr TSX @ 2700 fps.
Very mild and deadly.