A few years back, I had an audio tape that had been put out by Sportsmen On Film, by Ken someone, I cannot remember his name.

This audio was an interview/conversation with Peter Capstick. This is not a Capstick bashing thread, but just wanting peoples personal observations concerning a comment Capstick made during the interview.

A question came up about sighting in a rifle with a scope for another person.

If I remember correctly, Capstick stated that no one could sight a scoped rifle in, for another person to use. I know my own personal experiences with this subject, I am interested in what others have experienced.

It depends on how close to the same point of impact is considered acceptable. I can shoot a rifle and adjust the scope so that it impacts a desired spot at given range. Another person shooting the rifle will print the shots to a particular spot- which may or may not be close to the desired location. Whether I can sight it in for someone else depends on how close the two points of impact are considered acceptable and how similar our shooting process is.

Different people look through a scope differently and different rifles fit differently so it may or may not be sighted in properly by one person for another. Sometimes dead on and other times an inch or two two difference at a hundred yards. I'd say Peter was bang on when Ken Wilson interviewed him. If I'm borrowing a rifle somewhere...I'm checking zero first...no exceptions. I've seen some fairly significant shifts in POI between shooters out of the same rifle...both shooting a good group though.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Different people look through a scope differently and different rifles fit differently so it may or may not be sighted in properly by one person for another. Sometimes dead on and other times an inch or two two difference at a hundred yards. I'd say Peter was bang on when Ken Wilson interviewed him. If I'm borrowing a rifle somewhere...I'm checking zero first...no exceptions. I've seen some fairly significant shifts in POI between shooters out of the same rifle...both shooting a good group though.

+1

In the bush, we all share different rifles, and the animals all seem to fall over.

I have to agree with BenKK.

I've shot many rifles sighted in by other folks, had other people shoot my rifles, sighted in by me and helped dozens sight their rifles in with both of us shooting the rifle and have never noticed what could be called a discernible difference in field accuracy or point of impact. I'm not talking about a few rifles, but dozens, if not scores of firearms.

Perhaps from the bench, with highly accurate and consistent rifles one could measure the change in POI between two shooters but I don't believe it translates to a quantifiable amount in field conditions.

I suspect Capstick's outlook comes from certain military practises. This concept may come from soldiers sighting in prone rather than over a bench, whereby a true zero may be impossible to find and is probably irrelevant, anyway.

I think that if the rifle can be set up to zero reliably at the bench, it behoves us to learn to hold it straight and squeeze off carefully in the field.

In my experience, only once have I encountered someone whose POI with a scope was significantly different from mine. The rifle in question was a Mauser actioned .257 Roberts which I had had built for a friend, who wanted to try varmint hunting. I sighted it in for him, but he did not seem able to hit with it and complained about the zero. I took the rifle from him and on the very first try killed two crows with one shot.

I thought the matter settled, until some time later the two of us were shooting with another friend off the bench at 100 yards. We each fired a group with the same rifle, and two of the groups were at the same point of impact, while the third, which was the same size as the other two (under 1"), was displaced about 3" low and 3" to the right.

Sighting in with receiver sights is, of course, another matter, since head and eye position play such a critical role in sight alignment.

Most people who shoot bring their rifles to zero sufficiently close for effective work on deer sized animals to at least 300 yds.

Varmint rifles are usually heavier, and different experienced folks will find their zeros even closer. But the targets can be much smaller so would at least check.

Have encountered any number of people who plain cannot shoot off a rest...if at all. It may not be so much of a matter of different zero, but they shoot so poorly they cannot determine zero. I think this situation is applicable much more frequently than many here might believe. Am pretty sure most "regulars" here are able to shoot better than the average local in my neck of the woods.

The couple weeks before deer season up here is about the only time most people fire a rifle. I usually stay away from the range, but on occasion need to help someone. Pretty scary watching people throw 6" patterns at 25 yds. How in the world can you figure out "true" zero, let alone develop confidence.

parallex is one issue. Very few cheek, eye positions are identical so...
The other and probably more significant is simply where different people hold the reticle in relation to the target and then where it remains as the trigger breaks.
So my son likes Combat video games. He asks me to watch. "Your missing left and high son because your holding left and high." "No I'm not Dad..." Only took a year of this Discussion to where he finally sees what I see. Why? We're humans. We are fallible.

Except for parallax error, the "zero" of a scope doesn't change according to who it is that is looking through the scope. Typically, maximum parallax error is not enough to be of consequence with game-sized animals.

The point of impact may change by a very small amount with some rifles, particularly light sporters, due to the way the rifle is held by the shooter putting different pressures on the bedding, but this is usually minimal.

More important to whether a different shooter can hit the target is the bullet's path relative to line-of-sight at a particular yardage. Some people zero very high at 100 yards because they like to place the crosshair below the point of impact, thus mimicking how they are accustomed to using iron sights. If a different shooter assumes the crosshair to be essentially dead on, then he may miss high with such a "zero".

In looking back at my OP, I should have placed a qualifier on the question, I realize that now.

The parameter I should have listed, being sighting in a rifle for use in normal hunting conditions, not for shooting groups from the bench.

That is a completely different concept due to a bunch of factors peculiar to each individual shooter.

In the field shooting at game is more the direction I am looking at. Sorry for the confusion.

In the field shooting at game: The zero of one person will have little to do with the POI of another person. Why? Because in the field, aiming / shooting error will always exceed mechanical error of "sighting in" assuming a good job was done by the first person.
All which leads back to Person Accuracy is more important than mechanical accuracy in the field.
Yes I know we all love the 1/2 minute rifle.

I agree with Capstick to a degree. Different people will shoot to different POI but most of the time the differences at 100 or 200 yards is barely noticeable. The difference usually falls within the variations of the group sizes.

No one shoots to the same point of impact with my rifles. I thought that it was because I was left handed and most of my friends are right handed but even my daughter and friends who shoot left handed can't shoot my zero.

We tested it at 1,000 yards one day and wound up with four people shooting each others guns for 5 shot groups. I (the only lefty) consistently shot the other's guns 20"-30" left and they all shot mine consistently 2+ feet to the right of my POI.

The three right handed shooters shooting the right handed guns showed pretty consistent variations of 6" - 12" horizontally and up to about 8" of vertical differences in group positions, shooting each others guns.

I didn't write everything down but we noted some interesting things:

All the guns were sighted in for center hold at 1,000 yards and scopes were from 22 - 48 X
Everyone shot right with my guns, and I shot everyone else's guns to the left.
Everyone shot Shooter B's gun lower than him.
Everyone but me shot Shooter C's gun to the right, but I was less left with his gun than any other.

At 100 yards differences of .6" to 1.2" would be lost in the clutter.

Two feet at 1,000 yards could quickly equate to 5" at 200 yards...fairly significant in my books. Enough to put you on the extreme outer edge of a 10" kill zone. Sure lots of times we can get away with shooting rifles sighted in by others but I would never trust it without at least verifying zero.

I don't agree. If shooting at deer (and larger) sized animals, 300 yards and under, I don't think a rifle could be canted so differently and still see through the scope that a miss could be blamed on the manner in which the rifle was held.
As I said, we're talking about hunting not bench rest.

At 300 yards I've seen differences in POI between different shooters both shooting good groups that could easily be 6+ inches. That puts you outside the 10" kill zone on a deer. Lots of good info on the internet about the physics of it if you Google it.

My experience is that POI can be way off at long range.

A few years ago I was shooting with friends in North Carolina and using a 7mm Mag I think and at 800 yards I was shooting over 1 foot away from the others. It was prone and my long neck hindered correct positioning of the stock.

At closer ranges even up to 400 meters I have not had any issues.

I agree with that statemen 110%...and note he said on one "could". and that's confusing. as anyone could, but you sure might miss if someone else sights in for you. For one thing eyesight is different, bench position is different so it just doesn't always work from on degree or another..All of my hunters are taken to a make shift range at camp and asked to test fire their guns, and you would be amazed at how many tell us old buddy crackshot sighted in the gun for me. the shots are high, off taget or whatever..It happens a good deal.

I would never allow anyone to sight in my rifles. I would never use anothers rifle without a test fireing. I have done that in the past and I have paid the price for doing so.. That's pretty common knowledge and those that disagree with that need to go back to firearms 101..Ive seen so much game lost by the guy at the store or gunsmith who mounted a scope for a client and said its dead on at a 100 and it just wasn't.

If you want a successful hunt then sight in your own rifle, to do otherwise is simply asking for trouble. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and shooting DG at 25 yards is probably OK, but you could wound him and make a mess for someone to clean up. A gun that shoots 6 inches off for you at 100 is OK?? not so my man, at 200 its 12 inches off and so fourth. no one can live with that on a high dollar safari, end of story.

To me its criminal for a person to pick up a gun and go shoot game not even knowing if the gun shoots much less if its sighted in..more game is wounded by unsighted rifles than any other way IMO..Its just plain stupid., no excuses..

I knew Peter and his wife, he was an intelligent man.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
At 300 yards I've seen differences in POI between different shooters both shooting good groups that could easily be 6+ inches. That puts you outside the 10" kill zone on a deer. Lots of good info on the internet about the physics of it if you Google it.

Fuck a bunch of physics. While not a common thing, I have loaned guns, sighted in by me, to other guys without a problem. One case in particular, we were up in the rough and remote and a friend tumbled down the hill with his rifle bouncing along with him. The bounce the rifle took off of a rock outcropping pretty well did for the scope. And so I loaned him my rifle. Did we trek 50 miles down the mountain for him to "test" the rifle? Did we shoot up the woods around the camp? No in both cases. He merely took the rifle and killed a nice mulie.
Two guys shooting he same rifle hitting 6 inches apart? Wow.

"Criminal and plain stupid."

Wow. The internet is a hard place. As I said, in my small circle of friends and family, maybe two-dozen of us have killed ten-thousand head of game with about nine different scoped rifles (so not counting the open-sighted rifles). Can't think of any animals that got away. Must've happened occasionally, I guess. So, I guess we're all stupid criminals. And here I was thinking we were just good-natured, kind-hearted, salt-of-the-earth Aussie battlers who know and trust one-another.

This is actually quite weird. I have an extremely accurate rifle which shoots 2" groups at 300yds if I do my part all the time. A nephew, who is a reasonably good shot with his own rifle can't hit anything with this rifle. Another nephew has no problem duplicating my results.
Guess it boils down to how the rifle is held, point of aim, and eyesight. As Ray mentioned, I will not use a borrowed rifle unless I have put a couple of shots through it first!

Why wouldn't you want to sight in your own rifle? I do understand the broken rifle in the field borrow your buddies situation. However, if I own a rifle I'm going to shoot it. If it doesn't hit where I pointed it I am going to adjust the sighting mechanism so that it does.

Don't you think he's talking to the numbskull that buys a rifle, has someone sight it in for him, and the first time he shoots it, it's in the field with a game animal down range?

This has became interesting, if nothing else, but lets stop for just a minute, take a deep breath and think.

I have sighted in several guns for several folks, not three shot MOA's, but 100 to 200 yard, kill shot accuracy with one shot!

Yes there are variables between rifles and shooters, but, rarely have I had a hunter shoot one of my rifles, not kill game in the 100 to 200 window, when I instructed them to hold the cross hairs Dead Center of the shoulder or slightly below Dead Center!,

How many people looking thru a scope, can not identify a deer/elk or hogs front shoulder????

You have a clearly defined top line, the back.

A clearly defined bottom line, the chest.

And the clearly defined line of the neck coming down into the chest.

What is the kill zone on a normal white tail??? 8 to 10 inches wide x 10 to 12 inches top to bottom? A little larger on a Muley? About the same or slightly smaller on a Speed Goat? About double that size on an elk or moose?

Maybe I have been at this too long, maybe all the stuff Lora and I and others that have used my guns, and their guns, that I sighted in, merely died of fright, instead of being killed by the shots fired!

No, I do not believe that I or anyone else can sight in a rifle capable of MOA accuracy for another person, or for adequate accuracy on game at extended ranges.

Nor do I believe I or anyone else can sight in an Iron Sighted rifle for another person to be able to have realistic accuracy with.

But from experience I have watched people kill several critters by simply putting the crosshairs where I told them to hold.

I appreciate everyone's input, because we have all had different experiences and none of us are too old to learn.

Thanks to one and all for your comments.

Both my sons shoot to different spot than I do. I'll get it on paper myself but then make them shoot their rifles to fine tune the point of impact.

crazyhorseconsulting, Fortunately, my wife and I shoot to the same point of impact. However, a friend of mine and I shot groups about 2 inches apart at 100 yards. We can swap rifles,and get the same results. memtb

Point is, and I am having a hard time getting it across, but I am not talking about or concerned with, shooting groups from the bench.

I am more interested in Hunting Accuracy at normal hunting ranges, 0 to 200 yards.

I sight my rifles in to be "Dead On" at 100 yards, and hitting a little low at 200, but basically with a "Dead Center" hold on the shoulder of a White Tail out to 200 yards, the bullet is going to hit within the kill zone, does not matter who is making the shot. As long as they can center the crosshairs on the center of the shoulder, they are going to kill the animal.

To go along with the opinions/observations aspects, other than a target attached to a back board at a measured distance, how many of us/if any of us, have had a critter of any kind hold still for shots two and three?

I never have, but maybe I am just not that lucky!

I can agree with Capstick's statement when it comes to shooting from the bench at measured distances trying to get as small a group as possible, that makes sense.

But for me, getting one bullet, on the first shot into the kill zone on a deer or elk or whatever, at an unknown range at a target that is not necessarily holding still and is not going to be standing there AFTER that first shot, I want to know that if I tell the shooter to put the crosshairs Dead On, on a specific patch of hair, the bullet will get close enough to do the job.

Thanks to all of you for your responses. All of them have been good and made sense, I appreciate that.

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
Different people look through a scope differently and different rifles fit differently so it may or may not be sighted in properly by one person for another. Sometimes dead on and other times an inch or two two difference at a hundred yards. I'd say Peter was bang on when Ken Wilson interviewed him. If I'm borrowing a rifle somewhere...I'm checking zero first...no exceptions. I've seen some fairly significant shifts in POI between shooters out of the same rifle...both shooting a good group though.

I'm always amazed by your gun knowledge or complete lack thereof. Parallax can become a problem, especially if you struggle with shooting or walking and chewing gum etc. So in other words if you look through a scope sideways you will have problems. But this problems will be your problems and your own POI will shift from day to day. About an hour ago I was siting in a scope change on my 13 year old sons rifle. I tied a paper plate to a tree(ignore the cherry pie filling) got behind my pack and shot the hole top left. I made an adjustment and shot top right. I split the difference and shot the lower left shot in the centre group. 10 minutes later my 13 year old son shot the other two in the group off of the same pack. Shocking results I know.

One example makes a rule. Haha. Never did I use the word always Chuckie but it is frequent enough to be of concern. Speaking of lack of knowledge.

Why is it that each of us can not have experienced different situations and been successful?

quote:

Originally posted by sheephunterab:
One example makes a rule. Haha. Never did I use the word always Chuckie but it is frequent enough to be of concern. Speaking of lack of knowledge.

I always love your name calling. Reminds me of junior high.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Why is it that each of us can not have experienced different situations and been successful?

Because "some of us" have made a career out of guessing.

No reason at all crazy horse. I can hand my rifle to lots of people and have them shoot identical POI as me. I can also hand it to some and they shoot a significantly different POI. You dont need to be on one side of this discussion or the other. But to think everyone will shoot the same POI is ridiculous. Saying you saw one person do it hardly makes a rule. When talking about firearms it's best to use terms like usually not definitely speaking of guessing.

You are still missing the point. If you hand one of your rifles to someone and they are taking ac shot at a deer/elk/bear, whatever, and tell them to hold "Dead On" at a certain point on the targets anatomy, do you think they will make a killing shot or not???

In my case, every time I have handed ANY one, one of my rifles and told them where to put the crosshairs, they have killed what they were aiming at!

Which is more important, dead game or dead paper?????

Im not missing the point at all and have said several times that at 300 yards there is a distinct possibility someone could have a POI that was easily 5" different putting it On the outside edge of a 10" kill zone. Slightly over 1.5 inches difference at 100 yards could easily mean wounded animals at 300 yards.

Could/Might/Can, and I listed the parameters to 200 yards, not 300.

I do not care if it goes out to 500 yards, how many animals of ANY KIND have stood still and let you lob 3 shots at them?

Personally, I have not had any that stood there waiting for shot number two!

What does three shots have to do with anything? We are talking two shooters shooting different POI. It doesn't matter if it's one shot or 100. The POI shift is the same. Shooter A hits 1.5 inches away from shooter B every time. First shot or 100th. This has zero to do with shooting groups and everything to do with different POI consistently.

What does it matter if the shot either person makes kills the game being shot at???????

THAT is the point you are missing!

I can and have, let people use my personal rifles, sighted in for ME, and explained to them where to put the crosshairs, and they have ALL killed game!!!!!

What is there about that, that escapes you???????

If you, me or anyone else has a rifle sighted in, Dead On at 100 yards and we tell another person to hold "Dead On" the shoulder of a deer or elk at 100 out to 200 yards, their shot will hit and kill the animal.

I have done it too many times and seen it done enough times to know that it works. Which is more important, precisely placing the bullet, or making a killing shot on the first attempt?

Enjoy your evening!

I am not asking or expecting you to agree with me, we simply view things differently.

It would be some what reasonable/civil if you were adult enough to understand each of us have had our own experiences on the subject!

It appears that you are not open minded enough to understand that everyone has had different experiences.

I understand and respect your opinions, but that does not mean that I have to agree with them nor does it mean that I expect you to agree with mine, but it is somewhat reasonable to expect you or anyone else to understand that each of us have had our own experiences during our lifetimes.