I found a Parker Hale 1200 super 7mm Rem Mag at a local gun store for $299.

The wood needs refinished and it is missing both sights but it seems to me that the action alone should be worth $299.

Any comments are appreciated.

Great find at that price!!

I saw a flier for one from 1975. The price was $244.

Here in the UK...search Holt's Auctioneers...they struggle to make even half that. The action is pure Santa Barbara Spanish. But nothing wrong with that. But do be aware that it isn't an FN made receiver and expect FN receiver sort of prices.

That price considering the thing is scruffy and doesn't have its iron sights is way way over the worth of it. Also some of these P-Hale rifles converted to take belted magnum cases don't feed reliably. All essentially that P-H did was machine the front of a conventional Mauser bolt flat to accommodate the wider case base. If you are set on it try before you buy with cycling a magazine of dummy cartridges or live rounds. The trigger is good...as long as it works...it is an in house P-Hale unit but they are reliable as long as a "home gunsmith" called Bubba Brown hasn't had hands on them.

My input is they are good rifles in any of the standard .473" base size cartridges but to be avoided in any of the belted magnum calibres. Sorry if that's unhappy news but these aren't worth anywhere near that at all here in the UK. Lastly check those tapped 'scope mounting screw holes line up AND the threads are OK.

quote:

Here in the UK...search Holt's Auctioneers...they struggle to make even half that

Could it be the problem is the very limited buyers base there. With very strict licensing requirements.

Here we have many millions of buyers competing for firearms.

With very few licensing restrictions.

I have brought dozens of fire arms with cash and carry on the open market.

So the price comparison is worthless.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Here in the UK...search Holt's Auctioneers...they struggle to make even half that. The action is pure Santa Barbara Spanish. But nothing wrong with that. But do be aware that it isn't an FN made receiver and expect FN receiver sort of prices.

That price considering the thing is scruffy and doesn't have its iron sights is way way over the worth of it. Also some of these P-Hale rifles converted to take belted magnum cases don't feed reliably. All essentially that P-H did was machine the front of a conventional Mauser bolt flat to accommodate the wider case base. If you are set on it try before you buy with cycling a magazine of dummy cartridges or live rounds. The trigger is good...as long as it works...it is an in house P-Hale unit but they are reliable as long as a "home gunsmith" called Bubba Brown hasn't had hands on them.

My input is they are good rifles in any of the standard .473" base size cartridges but to be avoided in any of the belted magnum calibres. Sorry if that's unhappy news but these aren't worth anywhere near that at all here in the UK. Lastly check those tapped 'scope mounting screw holes line up AND the threads are OK.

I appreciate the detailed reply. I though the bolt face looked different.

quote:

Could it be the problem is the very limited buyers base there. With very strict licensing requirements.

No. There's more to it than that. But I understand your point. But I'll explain why it's not quite correct. It's that there are and were "better" rifles available for spending a little bit extra money. Even in the 1970s and 1980s people mostly only bought P-H rifles if they couldn't afford a BSA CF2, a Remington 700, a Sako, a Sauer, a Steyr-Mannlicher, a Tikka, a Winchester Model 70 or similar.

So a P-H "Midland" rifle using a surplus Springfield Model 1903 bolt or, for slightly more these rifles using a surplus Mauser 98 bolt were rarely a buyer's preferred choice unless the budget was limited.

So let's move on to 2018. In the UK we are permitted to use moderators on any and all hunting weapons. Most now do. And also very often as the things is now barrel heavy and unbalanced equip such rifles with folding bipods. So today's modern British stalking/hunting rifle will have, a moderator, a bipod and, likely a synthetic stock. And it'll use a bolt and receiver with a 60 degree throw to open the bolt that that definitely isn't Mauser 98 based with it's antiquated 90 degree throw.

That 90 degree throw renders most of today's large bell 'scopes unusable on any Mauser 98 based rifle. So modern 60 degree throw rifles that have three lug heads or rotating heads rule the roost. The P-Hale Mauser action isn't fit for purpose with these modern 'scopes.

Thus for British hunting as it is today these 1970s P-H rifles no desirable features. And as a basis to upgrade these P-H rifles offer nothing that the modern British deer hunter considers optimum nor is it easy to adapt these old P-H rifles to it. I like "old school" but I am in a dwindling minority. So it's not, per se, about licensing. It is about nobody wants them even if they were give away free. They are "yesterday's gun" that even back then wasn't what people aspired to if they had the money for something else.

So whilst people still highly value and will pay the price for an SMLE here or a No4 or a Moisin-Nagant they don't value these "old school" P-H rifles. Time has moved on and they are considered "classic" and aren't what today's stalker/hunter wants.

And as for the few of us that still like "old school" we like "old school" done tastefully! Not this faux Weatherby style. It just wasn't popular here and never really was. Even though I've a P-H rifle, in .30-06, and owned two in .270 WCF but all three were their M81 Classic model. Those remain sought after. I would never have owned a P-H 1200 even if it was a gift.

Where I hail from the Mauser action , unless part of a original sporting Mauser was for the most a platform for custom or semi custom rifles. In most cases then also for cartridges larger than the intent for the standard action.

As such urban legend had it that Santa Barbara actions had issues not in their original state but after reworking and then hardening. The metal apparently becomes brittle.

The source of this propagated and printed by students of the Mauser action. At one time there was Gunshop counter talk and suggestion that Musgrave Sourced Santa Barbara actions...... Never seen one built on such a action.

As such then for not particular reason or actual proof I am suspicious of the Action especially if sourced as a action for a custom

Hello ALF. As it is a Parker Hale it'll have been subject to a proof test when it was made as that 7mm RM that it is. So I'd have no worries about the strength of the thing. But I still (even though it is perfectly safe and totally sound) think it over priced.

Ah yes originally proofed for whatever caliber they were sold in.

But the issue is not the action on a rifle out the box, the issue was when some or other smith worked it after the fact , rehardened and reblued them the issue of brittle failure came in.

Something to do with the metal species used in manufacture.

As I say in the world in lived in a Santa Barbara Action was not deemed desirable nor was the Zastava

What is even more interesting was the cult status of the 7x57 !

Many if not most did not know that the Mauser of the Boer war ( M93 and M95 ) were not the M98 !

Well every day a schoolday. I was told that the actions were cast, not machined from a solid forged billet, so maybe.

Enfieldspares:

I think you are correct on the casting of the Santa Barbara

De Haas in his 4th edition states that the SB action is likely a casting with hardening and polishing on the outside only.

The Zastava is a forged and milled action

quote:

De Haas in his 4th edition states that the SB action is likely a casting with hardening and polishing on the outside only

Ruger has proved that a cast action can be very strong.

I’m sure I am uninformed on many things when it comes to the manufacturing of the different Mauser versions. However, I have owned and sold many Parker Hale rifles and actions over the past 35 years. Never seen one that did not perform as well as any other Mauser action. Just my take.

Used to be lots of them in Australia in early 70s, maybe before, I forget. They had a Wby look as did the M70 XTR and Sako Deluxe.

They were cheap and seen as shit.

Can't speak of England but I imagine similar to Australia on pricing (at least one brand relative to another brand) because unlike America all our rifles are imported and the associated costs. For example, a Sako compared to a Mark V cost a lot more than in Australia as both have import costs associated with them.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Hello ALF. As it is a Parker Hale it'll have been subject to a proof test when it was made as that 7mm RM that it is. So I'd have no worries about the strength of the thing. But I still (even though it is perfectly safe and totally sound) think it over priced.

Over priced... At $299.99. Really?? That's a pretty low opinion for a Commercial M-98 with no thumb slot, a hinged floor plate, aftermarket shroud and an adjustable trigger. I mean it's not like they are asking $5-600.00 or more. $300.00 is kind of cheap for any rifle. Even a crappy Charles Daly action alone is worth that much. Or at least they used to be.

Personally I think that the black rifle and Long range crazes have left classic rifles languishing, and so their values have not kept up with inflation. Some of them are selling for the same price they were a decade ago, if not less. Good for buyers, not so good for sellers and collectors.

What say you Mauser experts abolut the J.C.Higgins actions? They were made by FN were they not? I used to think that Parker Hales were of the same breed, but apparently not. Ive never had one. I do have several converted Millsurps though, and I dont have any issues with scope bells. They all work just fine.

I believe there is a considerable amount of confusion being expressed about the PH model 1200 rifles. Lets start before the model 1200 rifles were on the market. PH offered sporterized mauser action rifles built on military surplus 98 actions. Some of the early ones even came with the original military bottom metal. Shortly after that a new hindged floorplate was offered and then a detachable magazine was offered as well. These sporterized military action rifles were the PH model 1000. Yes some were converted to short mag calibres and there may have been some issues with feeding. When the military actions were running out PH purchased a small number of mauser actions from Brno. These actions were stamped Hussar on the left side of the action and have the rotary safety on the right side as do all ZG 47 actions made by Brno. I have one such rifle in 308 Norma and have seen others in 270, 7x57 and 30-06 calibres. PH only used the Brno action for a short time and switched to the Santa Barbra action. Cost was likely a major reason. The Santa Barbra actions came with std 06 bolt faces and magnum bolt faces so PH did NOT open up the bolt faces on model 1200 rifles.I have used PH M1200 C rifles for over 35 years and I don't think I've ever had an issue with one. The first was a 7mm Rem and I must have shot a truck load of game with it. Moose ,elk black bear, deer antelope. I actually wore that barrel out. I have several others in the model 1200 C ( C stands for clip magazine)and they all feed just fine. I would consider buying another @ $300 even if the barrel was done. A new barrel in the calibre of choice and you would have a rugged hunting rifle for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Hello ALF. As it is a Parker Hale it'll have been subject to a proof test when it was made as that 7mm RM that it is. So I'd have no worries about the strength of the thing. But I still (even though it is perfectly safe and totally sound) think it over priced.

Over priced... At $299.99. Really?? That's a pretty low opinion for a Commercial M-98 with no thumb slot, a hinged floor plate, aftermarket shroud and an adjustable trigger. I mean it's not like they are asking $5-600.00 or more. $300.00 is kind of cheap for any rifle. Even a crappy Charles Daly action alone is worth that much. Or at least they used to be.

Personally I think that the black rifle and Long range crazes have left classic rifles languishing, and so their values have not kept up with inflation. Some of them are selling for the same price they were a decade ago, if not less. Good for buyers, not so good for sellers and collectors.

What say you Mauser experts abolut the J.C.Higgins actions? They were made by FN were they not? I used to think that Parker Hales were of the same breed, but apparently not. Ive never had one. I do have several converted Millsurps though, and I dont have any issues with scope bells. They all work just fine.

Not everyone loves M98s.

Personally, you could not give me one.

Let's for a moment convert the M70 to M98

First up, grind the recoil lug down by half. Next move the recoil lug back to reduce the amount of stock material behind the new tiny recoil lug. Next, grind the tang away so as you have the minimum bedding area.

With custom guns, I don't know about America but in Australia they tend to be "the pay as you go" and the M98 as a starting point is a hell of a lot cheaper than a Pre 64. If you are a custom gunsmith then recommending M98 is best as gets things going quickly.

I know lots of people love Mausers and all I am doing is giving a view from the other side. For myself and blokes I know that rifle at $299 is over priced by $299.

I am fully aware of the model range of P-H rifles.

First and foremost: NOT ALL MAUSER ACTIONS AND THEIR DERIVATIVES HAVE BEEN CREATED EQUAL

This is specifically true of the Mauser model range going back to the M93, M95 and then on to the M98 and then finally on to what is seen as commercial Mauser M98 derivatives.

In terms of metallurgy, mode of manufacture, specifically the heat treatment and hardness of the various actions in this family multiple credible sources have tested and advised on the quality of various models and specimens specifically with regard to the use in custom guns.

There is a large variation in hardness and quality of heat treatment across the board between various models in the M98 range.

Some Students like Kuhnhausen are emphatic on what should or can be safely done to various models in the Mauser range because of this, also when opening standard actions what is deemed safe and what not.

What is interesting is that before the Magnum M98 sporting was commercially available standard mil spec actions were successfully opened re hardened and Proofed. I personally have examples of these by some of GB's foremost gun houses.

The concern regarding the Santa Barbara action which is a FN commercial derivative is not it's perceived quality in native form. Considering they opened them up to accept the likes of modern belted magnums and even the 404 as factory offerings and they survived British Proof.

The issue is like some other genuine M98 contract models is what happens if they are reworked and re hardened !

The Criticism of the Santa Barbara is brittle failure after being reworked and re hardened. As is lug setback on some other M98 models.

Alf,

Does a true Mauser prevent the extractor from riding over the case rim (on extraction) because the extractor is confined by the action.

Yes it does and if the case is stuck it will rip the rim right off if you try and beat it open


The action was in a way revolutionary for the time because it addressed many of the issues related to battle rifle requirements of the time.

The very same attributed endeared it to big game and dangerous hunters of the time and is still seen by some as essential attributes for a DG rifle action.

Alf,

I have never had much to do with Mausers but my understanding (which maybe wrong)is a lot of actions called Mausers deviate from the original design both as to shape of extractor to make it pull down harder into the groove when extraction is hard and the inner collar is slotted on both sides.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:


Not everyone loves M98s.

Personally, you could not give me one.

Let's for a moment convert the M70 to M98

First up, grind the recoil lug down by half. Next move the recoil lug back to reduce the amount of stock material behind the new tiny recoil lug. Next, grind the tang away so as you have the minimum bedding area.

With custom guns, I don't know about America but in Australia they tend to be "the pay as you go" and the M98 as a starting point is a hell of a lot cheaper than a Pre 64. If you are a custom gunsmith then recommending M98 is best as gets things going quickly.

I know lots of people love Mausers and all I am doing is giving a view from the other side. For myself and blokes I know that rifle at $299 is over priced by $299.

No bias there M8. Congratulations, you are the first person I have ever heard of to accuse the M-98 of having inadequate recoil lugs. Then you say the PH in photos above is worth nothing whatsoever. Palease..

I like M-70's. But the pre 64's are artificially overpriced and over hyped. You can keep the hype and the price you pay for it, Im just fine with my "tiny" recoil lugs. Pfft..

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Alf,

I have never had much to do with Mausers

You have if you own an M70. You just dont know it yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

No bias there M8. Congratulations, you are the first person I have ever heard of to accuse the M-98 of having inadequate recoil lugs. Then you say the PH in photos above is worth nothing whatsoever. Palease..

I like M-70's. But the pre 64's are artificially overpriced and over hyped. You can keep the hype and the price you pay for it, Im just fine with my "tiny" recoil lugs. Pfft..

I am far from the first to say the recoil lug is small. Two that immediately come to mind are Remington and Winchester. With the M70 I am open to any suggestion to the advantages in halving its recoil lug size and the moving the recoil lug back so as to reduce stock material behind the lug by about a half. Also open to suggestion to advantages in reducing its tang area.

I did not say the rifle was worth nothing. I said it was worth nothing to myself and a few people I know. I am sure there are rifles or actions that I would value highly but many people would rate then as worth nothing.

I find the recurrent arguments against the perceived shortcomings of the Mauser M98 somewhat amusing

It's like levelling criticism against the first aircraft, car , steam engine or anything mechanical.

Mauser's M98 requires no defending !

It stands tall in the knowledge that it is The most influential design in bolt action rifle manufacture ever produced and some would argue likely the best action ever designed based on the fact that it was the most widely used of all bolt actions in its time and the most copied action in terms of features in the history of the bolt action rifle !

The argument contra cannot deny these facts period !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I find the recurrent arguments against the perceived shortcomings of the Mauser M98 somewhat amusing

It's like levelling criticism against the first aircraft, car , steam engine or anything mechanical.

Not the same thing Alf. Firstly there is no one who would love to hit a switch and go back in time than me. One of my most common YouTube watching is Steam engines and not just trains. Waiting for rebuild of Big Boy 4014. Although I think it will be oil instead of coal. Maybe the greenies at work.

However, the Mauser is in common use today and you have those custom made Mausers.

Personally, I would like to see every diesel electric removed forever and steam engines be back. However, I would have to argue the advantages of the diesel electric and especially how simple a double or triple header is to do.

I don't always prefer efficiency etc. For example. if steam trains had run condensers so they could use distilled water then boiler maintenance would have dropped way down. However, I would never want that and would always want the exhaust to create draught for the firebox.

The simple fact is the bedding configuration of the M70 and Rem 700 (and their copies) is far superior to the M98. From memory a change from M54 to M70 was moving back the front screw to middle of the bedding platform. In M98 defence, other actions with tiny recoil lugs like the older Sakos and Howas don't have the front screw as well positioned as the M98.

I also fully appreciate why someone just likes some things. I am and have always been a fan of Mark Vs and especially for the 378 based calibres. In my opinion, a 378 and especially a 30/378 on converted 416 CZ is a mortal sin and never to be forgiven Having said that I am the first to say a Mark V is not a great configuration for bedding. Very small bedding platform, screw up front and being into a M70 size recoil lug very little stock material between floor plate and bottom of recoil lug.

We can do breeching on M98 and M70 another day

ok I found what I was looking for in my notes

Mauser 98 heat Treatment
Clarence Ellis
Rifle 77 September-October 1981

Ellis was formerly a foreman at Golden State Arms and the Pasadena Firearms Company

Golden State were the importers of the Santa Barbara actions in the USA.

Whilst at Golden State it was common practice to test , anneal and reharded various Mauser actions.

The Santa Barbara actions were very very hard out the box, so hard they could not drill and tap them so they annealed them, did the drilling and tapping and then rehardened them. They were then proof fired and Rockwell tested for hardness.

Because of the internal working surface roughness the company believed that hardening to between 40 and 45 C would somehow make the insides smoother.

He noticed cracking with proof shooting in actions hardened over 40 C and further testing by hitting them with a hammer shattered the actions. Action hardness of 30 deg stood up to firing and being hit with a hammer, they did not deform when hit with a sledge

Ellis claimed that under his tenure they made sure not a single action with hardness over 40 C left their facility

Ive seen a lot of Parker Hales locally, all in 30-06 or 270, been used for years without problems..I believe them strong enough for those cartridges based on that...would I use one, probably not, as I have, like most, heard all the stories, but hell I heard all about the opening of the Whiteworths to take the 375 and 458 and that IMO turned to pure BS..I take most expertise on guns with a grain of salt, so much of it is BS, I have a small list of those claims that I found to be incorrect and rumor that became fact....Zastava and some other mausers I have played with were mostly trashed by me as they were poorly finished and too much work...I can't imgine a Mauser that can't be fixed by heat treatment, but strange things happen, and you never know who gets blamed. Many of those Mausers didn't need heat treatment to start with other than they are esier to work with when soft, the rehardened to specs..As a great metalsmith once told me, doing heat treatment of a certain mod-98 was akin to painting a tin barn to weather proof it.

I owned one back in the day; my first CF rifle, chambered in 7RM. It was a good rifle, but not a tack driver. Never had any issues.

That said, I agree with Mike: the M98 is not the best all around action today, esp when it comes to accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
ok I found what I was looking for in my notes

Mauser 98 heat Treatment
Clarence Ellis
Rifle 77 September-October 1981

Ellis was formerly a foreman at Golden State Arms and the Pasadena Firearms Company

Golden State were the importers of the Santa Barbara actions in the USA.

Whilst at Golden State it was common practice to test , anneal and reharded various Mauser actions.

The Santa Barbara actions were very very hard out the box, so hard they could not drill and tap them so they annealed them, did the drilling and tapping and then rehardened them. They were then proof fired and Rockwell tested for hardness.

Because of the internal working surface roughness the company believed that hardening to between 40 and 45 C would somehow make the insides smoother.

He noticed cracking with proof shooting in actions hardened over 40 C and further testing by hitting them with a hammer shattered the actions. Action hardness of 30 deg stood up to firing and being hit with a hammer, they did not deform when hit with a sledge

Ellis claimed that under his tenure they made sure not a single action with hardness over 40 C left their facility

Wow. That last sentance is a relief. It sounds like GS requested them hardened that way. It also sounds like Zastava had some real QC issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

I am far from the first to say the recoil lug is small. Two that immediately come to mind are Remington and Winchester. With the M70 I am open to any suggestion to the advantages in halving its recoil lug size and the moving the recoil lug back so as to reduce stock material behind the lug by about a half. Also open to suggestion to advantages in reducing its tang area.

Mike. To say "Mauser moved the lugs back" Or "reduced the tang size" is off base. The Remchesters came after M-98's! Mauser didnt deliberately make theirs less, Remchesters based actions on the M-98 and made improvements. Some of which may be to simplify the process. Case in point, Remington 700's are made from a piece of steel tubing, because it is easier and much cheaper. It would be interesting to see comparison tests of the hardness of said lugs. It stands to reason that a larger lug could do the same work with less hardening. One should also bear in mind that the vast majority of Mausers were not designed to accomodate Magnum pressures, in spite of the fact that they do it very well. Many Remchesters were.

The lugs that are set back from the bolt face was intentional for the time in which the Mauser action was designed. At the time case rupture was a issue and Mauser lugs were set back so that the rim of the bolt face was recessed in the so called "ring of steel" milled into the front action ring , this ring only broken at the opening for the extractor. hence the C ring, later actions like the FN had a H ring , this done to cut down on manufacturing cost

This meant that the bolt face was enclosed by this ring

Noriaka Arisaka further expanded on this when he copied Mauser with his 1905 Type 38

With his design the bolt head was enclosed not by a ring of steel that was part of the front ring of the action body but it engaged a recess in the barrel itself so that the bolt face was actually buried in the butt end of the barrel.... it literally had its nose up the ass of the barrel Arisaka's action was then also the strongest of all the Mauser derivatives including the Mauser itself mainly because of the size of the lugs in terms of shear area

Another consideration is how much of the case head is actually supported by the barrel chamber
There is a distinct difference between various barrel designs on how much of the head is actually supported.

In some designs the head of the cartridge head is actually unsupported ( it literally hangs with its ass out in the wind ) so that a pressure ring form when the cartridge is fired and if cartridges are over pressure case head separation occur

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:

Mike. To say "Mauser moved the lugs back" Or "reduced the tang size" is off base. The Remchesters came after M-98's!

I am well aware of that and the Mauser also being first with the counterpart of the bolt nose in the chamber as per Rem 700 and Mark V, although of course done differently.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

In some designs the head of the cartridge head is actually unsupported ( it literally hangs with its ass out in the wind ) so that a pressure ring form when the cartridge is fired and if cartridges are over pressure case head separation occur

Rem 700 is the offender in this area and the extractor system being the cause. Can't think of any action where the case protrudes further out of the chamber than the Rem 700.