Title says it all; but let's set aside any preferences about bullet diameter, BC, external ballistics, terminal performance, etc.

What I'm curious about is the case itself.

From what I gather, some don't like a belted cartridge - why?

Some wonder about effeciency - ok; but to what degree?

Some don't like the larger bolt-face/fewer rounds in the mag. Ok.

What am I missing?

Many thanks for your input!

friar

I had one in a Win Model 70, after i sold it to my buddy I also reloaded for him, turned out to ba real accurate rig, I just didnt have a need for a magnum rifle, went with a 7mm08, lets say Im very happy with my choice.

Damn, I guess I've got to get out more. I didn't know that many people didn't like the big 7. Especially those that have actually used one. You'll always have the few that would kick even if they were hanged with a new rope but...
The recoil is very manageable and the accuracy, from reading the various post, is acrost the board very good to excellent. My example of one is a tack driver and I have never had an elk move out of sight from where he was shot.
So what's not to like?

We seem to be moving out of the magnum age, or at least I sure don't see as many in use as I used to. My 7MM RM is a finely accurate rifle and retains this accuracy through a wide spectrum of velocities. Most of my hunting today is well covered by my 7x57 and my 35 Whelen but I don't hunt Wyoming much anymore.

I have a lot of rifles...of em is a 7mm mag. Excellent shooter, kill well. I'm just more of a 30 cal man. Doesn't mean I don't like the 7mm I just don't shoot it often.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Gorski:
I had one in a Win Model 70, after i sold it to my buddy I also reloaded for him, turned out to ba real accurate rig, I just didnt have a need for a magnum rifle, went with a 7mm08, lets say Im very happy with my choice.

Hard to argue with that. I've got three 7mm-08's, it's the one I reach for most nowadays.

My observation on the 7Mag is that there is nothing wrong at all with the round. There is however something very wrong with the psychology of a lot of folks who buy them.

And that guy is the once a year hunter who reads far to many gun magazines and hunting mags. Who go out and buy a 7MM because they have read how awesome of a long range caliber it is then go out and try to swat elk cross canyon at stupid long ranges simply because they have a 7MM in their hands. They somehow believe that the rifle will magically allow them to make shots at any and all ranges.

The 7MM seems to be the transitional magnum round for neophyte hunters who've been using non magnums. And I think that is where it gets it's bad rap. It has nothing to do with the actual realities and capabilities of this great round.

I'd also like to add that obviously there is a lot of really squared away riflemen who shoot the 7 mag and don't mean to disparage them in any way.

I got a great deal on two M70 XTR push feed 7mm RM rifles, one was given to me by a friend the other I paid $300 + shipping and FFL fees to get. Shot both for a summer, but my biggest mistake was already owning a .270 Win and .30-06. I just didn't see where the 7mm RM provided a perceived performance increase other than on paper, it wasn't really anymore accurate than my .270 either.

I sold the one to finance turning my friends rifle into a .375 Ruger. I've never regretted my choice. I won't argue with the 7mm RM performance on game, too many people use them with great success I just never warmed up to the cartridge.

Because the 280 AI is a much better choice with the same ballistics

I got my XTR 70 when I was 18, I wanted a magnum, thought I needed that to put a deer down fast, boy was I wrong, why would one need such power for hunting the woods of Wis? I had magnum fever so I bought a 375 H&H the next year, OUCH, 6 shots with that and I was done with that thing. Now I like to do certain things with less, the biggest rifle I have now is my Dads model 70 '06, it was a wedding gift, next in line, two 308s(sporter & Sniper), 1 708(Sporter), 6mm Rem,(varmint)& 233rem.(Varmint). I cant take magnums like I used to when I was a teenager.

News to me.

Ever wonder why so many caliber cartridges are manufactured , One size doesn't fit all !.

Why is the Military moving away from .308 sniper rigs into .300 WM .338 LM .50 cal units .

7mm Rem Mag has been around since 62 and is still getting the job done on several continents .

As with anything if one objects , simply purchase something else more suited too your particular needs .

Not a big enough step up in power from the 30.06 and won't do what a 300 mag will.

The 7 mag is a bad fit for so many because it is such a good fit!

Most Americans, myself included have and like to have several rifles to use that fit a niche scenario for us. My .375 is for moose and cape buffalo. My -06 is for deer, sheep, and plainsgame. The .458 is for elephant only, the 9.3 is for bears.

Or something like that.

I wouldn't want a 7mag because it's work well on all of the above with the exception of the african dg. Its not a niche gun, it does too much.

I don't really dislike any 7 mm. It's just that they don't fill my niche. Here in Ak., I use my .27 cal. rifles for most everything and my .338 for moose and for the largest bears if they are the quarry. I've never had a problem with my .270 Win. on any sheep or caribou & I'd use it on moose with a high degree of confidence if I had to.
Bear in Fairbanks

Maybe because anything that a 270 win is marginal for...moving up to a 7mm mag doesn't do much. You would be likely better off with a 300 WM or even a 338WM.

Anything a 7mm mag is well suited for can be done with a 270 win with less recoil less powder and less fuss..

The 7mm Mag is clearly among the best choices for elk hunting and other animals of that size......it's just that most gyrate to the .300s instead.

I have a .280 instead.....but there's nothing wrong with the 7-mag.

As to the belt.....it is not at all necessary on a bottleneck cartridge like it is on a .458 Mag case.....and in fact it forces two places on which to headspace.....and this too isn't a biggie unless one has two 7-mags.....One runs a chance that rounds fired in one will not interchange with the other even after FL resizing.....been there.....didn't like it!

Yep, it makes too much sense for most to grasp. It's one of those cartridges that just works.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
My observation on the 7Mag is that there is nothing wrong at all with the round. There is however something very wrong with the psychology of a lot of folks who buy them.

Who go out and buy a 7MM because they have read how awesome of a long range caliber it is then go out and try to swat elk cross canyon at stupid long ranges simply because they have a 7MM in their hands. They somehow believe that the rifle will magically allow them to make shots at any and all ranges.

I'd also like to add that obviously there is a lot of really squared away riflemen who shoot the 7 mag and don't mean to disparage them in any way.

I have noticed the same thing, spoken and written, and on the outdoor shows.

I have owned at least two 7 mags, and they were OK, but I couldn't get past the notion that it was more boom to get about what my 30-06 would do easier. So, when it came time to thin or trade, or looking for donar actions, the 7 mags just rise to the top of the heap. A 280, 7mm-08, 7x64, 7x57 is just more fun to shoot, and does everything I want to do with a 7mm.

Besides, I have three very accurate alternatives - 338WM and a 300WM, and a 300 H&H. If I want a small bore magnum, I have that niche covered, and the 7 Mag can't compete in that class anyway, but it produces the same recoil and blast - at least that's what my shoulder told me.

Back to the nimrods - in a way, I find the hype about the 7Mag disgusting. For example, sometime within the last year or so, I was watching TV at a friend's house. He likes to watch those long range shooting at big game shows. I don't like them, but I'm also polite, as a guest. Anyway, on TV this slick western know-it-all talking guy set up on a ridge, dialed in his huslimaw or whatver, and range finder, and his shiney 700 clone chambered in 7 Mag, shooting 180 gr Berger bullets, all of which I know because they made a point of letting every nimrod know where they too could purchase such equipment. Then from 800 yards or so, proceeded to make a one shot kill on a large bull moose.

What else can one say? I could say a lot, but instead, i have found that folks already have their minds made up about such things. So it would be a waste of words, unless speaking the the choir.

The thing is, here in Alaska, we generally get a lot closer before taking the shot. I suspect that guy on the TV show actually found the moose a lot closer, then rode those horses AWAY from the moose, in order to set up the shot for the camera. I also find it hard to believe that so-called one shot kill as it was presented. In other words, it's the same but just more of it - hype that I read and hear from many 7 mag shooters. I read the specs and cronograph data in the load manuals, and actually believe them. I read and hear of others claiming some outrageous velocity from their 7 mag, and find it's either a lie, or they simply keep adding powder. Frankly I believe those guys who produced that TV show are liers. It's not that such a shot can't be done, nor is it that it shouldn't be done. I believe they set it up to look like a regular thing, but it wasn't, and I believe they time lapsed the period between the shot and the moose falling. A shot like that just ain't real, especially with a 7 mag.

BTW, My post following Terry's is just coincidence, not intentional. We were apparantly typing at the same time. No personal offence to one person in particular intended.
KB

My Second centerfire rifle was a 7mm RM. It took it to Africa in 1971. Then in 1974 I had to have a 300 Weatherby, shot one of those for a couple of years, then I went on looking for the perfect rifle cartridge Combo, I ended up with some 60 rifles when I decided enough was enough and paired down my collection. I bought a Blaser R-903 because I wanted one, it had a 7mm RM barrel on it, I planed of selling it for another. I shot it, zeroed it in and been shooting stuff again with it, going on 6 seasons now. Good cartridge.

I'm a believer.

I have owned two 7RM's (both Weatherby’s) and what prompted me to sell them was the speed....or lack there of.

The belt....who cares I don’t FCRS anyway. Burn a good bit of powder vs actual speed gain...yep.

Thing is.

I could only get a tad bit better than 3000 with 160's and since I get 3K with my -06 and 150's the big 7 never impressed me.

I bought a 7mm rem mag in 1978 and killed gobs of game with it as well as with a number of other rifles. After 33 years of hunting with my old Sako I will admit that its kind of mediocre for whitetail close in, say 125 yards. It's like sticking them with an ice pick. They almost don't know their dead. In spite of what I have heard professional hunters say in Africa "Lousy cartridge, not enough penetration" or a guide in Wyoming who said no one needs a magnum, especially one that kicks so hard, I like the cartridge. After all these years, it's not my first choice and I am a big advocate of the 30 caliber magnums now. I have killed enough game to know that whether it's a .270, a 7mm RM, a .300 and even my .375, a lot game keeps running a ways before they fall over dead. I like the 7mm RM for mule deer, long antelope shots and other western hunting. It does kill game and the recoil is fairly mild.

Premium bullets in the last 15 years have made the 7mm08 a great light rifle out to 300 meters +. Unless one is a really good shot and can consistently kill game at 450 meters, the 7mm Mag does not have the advantage it had 20 years ago. My 280 AI is a cabinet queen now and I reach for Kimber Montana 7mm08 all the time.

But if I go after PG in Africa I'll take my 280 AI as it will give me just bit more insurance against Kudu, Gemsbok etc.

It's not a matter of not "liking" it, just a matter of its being a somewhat "in between" cartridge that is neither fish nor fowl. I'd rather have a .270 for deer or antelope, and would prefer one of the .30 magnums for game like elk or African plains game. For that matter, I find the .30-06 generally preferable to the 7mm RM for the larger game.

Sure, the 7mm RM will work just fine on both the larger and the smaller big game species, but you can almost always name a cartridge that seems better suited to a particular species and hunting situation.

My all time favorite go to cartridge! I like 7-08 too but they don't do so well with the heavies.

What I can't figure is getting a 7 mag and shooting 120g bullets??????

When the 7mag shines for me is 160 grains and up. I do like those Berger 168VLDs everything I shoot with them just dies!

quote:

Because the 280 AI is a much better choice with the same ballistics

Just wait 'til your rifle shows up and your ammo doesn't! You can buy 7mm RM durn near anywhere........280 AI......not so much.....

280AI is a fine cartridge though.

As for me, I love my 7mm RM. It is a Ruger "flat-bolt" I bought used in 1973. It shoots great groups and does a great job on game using 154 Hornady Spire Point reloads.

That said, I haven't taken it hunting in years because I haven't been doing any long range hunting. I used to hunt mule deer and elk in Wyoming and New Mexico, now I shoot hogs and tiny hill country whitetails and all I need is a 6mm or 243.

Its not so much the round as it is the attitude of many owners. They seem to think they have a big gun because it has magnum in the title. They also only see hypervelocity and think it is the way to go.

Personally I would like to se all factory loads limited to 160gr and heavier. Heck 175-195gr 7mm bullets would be best...my opinion.

It seems that lots of guy's point of view is in the neighborhood with Stonecreek "you can almost always name a cartridge that seems better suited to a particular species/situation." I've heard much the same said about the .30-06, too.

Perhaps part of it, is that for snobs like us (No! I should speak only for myself! ) the 7mm RM is, well, ordinary, common, even "uncouth", given that so many joe-blows want to brag about their mighty feats with the cart.

Fjold comments that it won't do what a 300 mag will. I could buy that, I suppose; but inside of 500 yards on, say, a big elk, would it really make a difference, one way or another (Ahh, I've just broken my own rule! I was supposed to ask only about the cart. itself, not terminal performance!).

'Course, Fjold, from your avatar, I suspect you subscribe to the "heavy for caliber" school?

I'm curious about all this for two reasons: 1, my dad has a nice old Savage, and I'm wondering if it's worth the bother reloading for it. And 2, at some point I'll get another rifle (family's growin, after all!), and I'm mulling over my options.

Anyway, many thanks - great to pick your guys' brains!

friar

The 7mm Rem Mag is out of style now....
Just like the .270, the 8X57 and many others

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Not a big enough step up in power from the 30.06 and won't do what a 300 mag will.

Interesting comment considering the 7mag has more down range energy than either.

Terry

speaking personally--- ain't nothing made in 7mm that a .308 diameter would not do as well or better. I am biased to .308 diameter and larger. Nothing wrong with a 7mm mag. but if I want that level of performance -- I'm getting a 300 mag. or .338 WM

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Not a big enough step up in power from the 30.06 and won't do what a 300 mag will.

Interesting comment considering the 7mag has more down range energy than either.

Terry

...And the recoil is nearly identical to the .06

I don't use my 7mmRM as much as I use to, but I'm not selling it either. Great round.

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
What I'm curious about is the case itself.

From what I gather, some don't like a belted cartridge - why?

The belt is useless on that particular case. It (the belt) was originally designed for sharply tapered (H&H magnum) cases W/O a well defined shoulder that would be used in both bolt & double rifles. Not only does it provide a headspace point for these type cases, it was a compromise that would feed acceptable in bolt rifles yet provide a "rim" of sorts for the extractors on double rifles.

In a cartridge that will 99% of of the time be chambered in bolt rifles W/a well defined shoulder, the belt is just a hinderance. It makes for less magazine capacity W/O the corosponding increase in powder capacity, it can complicate feeding in magazine feed rifles & it can be a problem when F/L resizing cases for relaoding.

The only reason it was included in the '60s era magnums was marketing hype. It had to ahve a "belt" to be a magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by friarmeier:
Some wonder about effeciency - ok; but to what degree?


friar

A 280 Rem, when loaded to the same pressure, (62,000 psi) is right on the heels of the 7mm Mag. Most modern 7mm Mag factory ammo is downloaded so that a good 62K 280 Rem handload can equal the factory load performance.

Supposidly, the 7mm Mag can be prone to pressure spikes when used in rifles of varying spec's hence the backing off of factory loads compared to the oriuginal loadings from when the cartridge was 1st introduced.

A 280 can be loaded to slightly compresed W/RL22 & still be under 62K @ 3150 fps W/a 140gr bullet.

W/Norma MRP, you can exceed that MV @ even lower chamber pressure. Even W/a drop tube one can't get enough Norma MRP into a 280 Rem case to exceed 61K W/a 140 gr bullet.

I doubt that one can completely fill a 7mm Mag case W/any powder.

I always strive for a compressed load in any cartridge I load. I have always gotten the moast consistant standard deviation & accuracy W/compressed loads.

I bought 7RM Ruger 77 in 1979. I had it rebarreled in 2006 and I still use it often. I think most folks try it with factory ammo which way under loaded. I chrono 140 gr TSX at 3350 or 175 partitions at 3000. The other problem for most is they use standard bullets made for the smaller 7mm which won't take that vel.Retumbo will fill the case with great results.

The 7mm Remington Magnum is my favorite caliber up to elk size animals. And as Rob stated the caliber is way under loadeded with factory ammo.
Fortyeight years after the 7mm Mag was introduced it is still one of the post popular selling cartridges made along with the 30-06, 270, 22-250 etc.

66.0 gr IMR 7828
WW brass
CCI-250 Primer
175 gr Nosler Partition
MV- 3060 fps @ 15 from muzzle.
3 shot group@ 100 yards 5/8"

No signs of high pressure in four 7mm RM, and this load is two grains below MAX.

Good shooting.

Steve

This seems to be a reasonably accurate article about the 7mm Rem Mag. I read it through, and didn't see anything that was significantly questionable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_mm_Remington_Magnum

I always had a hunch that there was something to be discovered with the 7 Mag that I never found. I tried, but maybe not hard enough. Of course I limited my handloads to the max per the manuals. I never did try Retumbo, because I've never seen it available up here. I tried 4831 and it's ok, but leaves a lot of room in the case.

I'm thinking that extra room is too tempting for some.

I'm still left with some questions that seem to be specifically related to the 7 mag. I don't understand where the notion comes from that somehow the 7 mag has more energy down range than the 300. It has to be simply a belief, because it surely ain't a fact - given bullets with the same SD and BC. It may be true comparing bullets of the same weight 7mm vs .308, but that's not a fair comparison.

Another thing - is it common with various cartridges - not just the 7 mag - that some handloaders take liberties with the max loads, and go beyond the load manuals? It seems to me that those talking about 3000 fps with 175 gr bullets from a 7 mag are also talking about pressures in excess of 61,000 (SAAMI for the 7 mag) That just seems - I can't think of the proper word - I suppose -- why? Anyway, this seems to be common and specific to the 7 mag. I'm wondering if my observation is consistant with other's.

I can understand that pushing the upper end of certain load data can be OK, in some instances. Take the 270 vs the 280 for example. Same brass quality, so either should be capable of withstanding the same pressure, but the 270 has a higher SAAMI spec than the 280. So, I'm not too uncomfortable adding a grain or two onto the load manuals max loads for the 280, as long as the results are ok in a specific rifle, and worked up to.

However, talking about 62K, as though it was reasonable somehow, reinvented somehow as though the author knows something that the designers and the publishers of the data manuals don't know, even with all their lab equipment, just looks like a credability issue to me.

This is the kind of baggage that has been loaded upon the 7 mag over time. I'm wondering if it's unique to the 7 mag. I've seen the same mentality with the AI cartridges, but perhaps it can be easier to understand therein.

Edited: I may have partially answered my own question - - I looked again at the Hodgdon load data on line, for the 270, and I was surprised to find the pressure PSI in the 61K range. That's interesting. It's much higher that I remembered/thought it was.

KB

Terry, I was about to reply to your post, which is deleted. Naturally, you prompted me to do some math, to confirm my "belief".

I got together some numbers - - sectional density and ballistic coefficients - - from Sierra bullets, since the data is easier to find for them and they make bullets of equal weight in both the 7mm and .308. Just comparing the 168gr MK - BC = .488 for 7mm, and .462 for .308. The energy at 300 yds is 2222 for the 7mm and 2168 for the 308, both starting at 3000 fps. I compared other bullets - 175gr, and 180 gr. with similar results.

After thinking about it - you may be right, or close enough to right to call it that.

After all, a real comparison is difficult, since the 300 will most likely be capable of at least 100 fps extra velocity, compared to 7 mag, same bullet weight.

But in the final analysis, it looks to me that the differences at 300 yds and beyond are not enough to argue about.

It's too much math for a few ft lbs of energy, and fractions of an inch in drop, and give or take 100 fps or so. There are too many other variables to make it precise, speaking in general.

Could be that the 7 mag is right up there in the class of the 300WM after all.

The real comparison though is the 160 gr 7mm bullet and the 180 gr .308 bullet. It's reasonable to estimate that the 7 R mag and the 300 W mag will push each respectively at about the same velocity, at about the same pressure level, and arguably at about the same felt recoil. However, I concede that the actual difference in hunting situations is probably not relevant.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Lefforge:
The 7mm Remington Magnum is my favorite caliber up to elk size animals. And as Rob stated the caliber is way under loadeded with factory ammo.
Fortyeight years after the 7mm Mag was introduced it is still one of the post popular selling cartridges made along with the 30-06, 270, 22-250 etc.

66.0 gr IMR 7828
WW brass
Fed- 215 primer
175 gr Nosler Partition
MV- 3060 fps @ 15 from muzzle.
3 shot group@ 100 yards 5/8"

No signs of high pressure in four 7mm RM, and this load is two grains below MAX.

Good shooting.

Steve

Hi Steve your load (3060 fps with a 175g bullet) was the advertised factory load when the 7mm Rem Mag first came out. They "detuned" it over the years (probably out of litigation paranoia).