Since a question came up about the XCR, I was at the SHOT show and also saw the Rem catalog on the new 7's. The STAINLESS looking actions I BELIEVE have some 'coating' impervious to weather, which leads me to assume they are carbon steel actions, with a coating.

Perhaps Rem can do them cheaper vs stainless, as it seems everything Rem does is for cost savings. The 710 comes to mind as does the elimination of the 541 and intro of a CHEAPER constructed bolt 22.

Anyone have more info on the 'stainless looking' rifles that have this new 'coating?'

Just curious, not that I want any Remington, but the idea that Rem was 'cutting corners' again got my attention. Would there be ANY benefit vs using Stainless, OTHER than lower production costs is the question? I guess it just seems 'deceptive'

The XCR has a coating on it. I don't believe other stainless 700s have a coating.

LWD

Well if it says 'stainless' in description, it likely is, if not and has the coating, perhaps it is a 'trial run' of coated carbon steel actions, and why they simply are not using stainless begs the question.

The type of stainless in rifles is not as stainless as it could be. If it were it would not be suitable for a rifle. If you buy any stainless rifle thinking it is weather proof then you made a mistake.

It is quite clear in the Remington catalog that the XCR is a stainless barrel and action with a special coating to make it even more rust resistant. It even has a nickle plated trigger mechanism that should resist any rusting.

I have a Remington XCR that I really like. It is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Limited Edition from last year chambered in 300 WSM. It is a great rifle that handles well and feels lighter than it really is.

I really have not hunted in any bad weather conditions with it as of yet. But having said that, if I were going to Canada or Alaska for a bear hunt, that would be the rifle I would take.

I can insure you the one I have is stainless inside and out. Barrel and action with the coating over the stainless. I have taken the rifle totally apart to pull the barrel off and set it back due to an excessivly long throat. It is a 7mm RUM.

quote:

Perhaps Rem can do them cheaper vs stainless, as it seems everything Rem does is for cost savings.

If a magnet pulls on any gun at all, it will rust and all stainless guns i've seen do have at least some pull from a magnet. (and will rust)

"If" Rem. is takeing it one step further to make them rust proof by coating them, then send them a letter of thanks instead of slamming them on the net..

DM

2007 catalog description has NO mention of stainless on pages 32-33 regarding the 7 XCR. On page 95 specs-says BARREL MATERIAL 416 Stainless. Nothing else is mentioned about Stainless.

DM, I guess I should send a thank you letter to Rem for all the junk they sent out their factory? Like the bolt handle that fell off a new rifle, fired very little, they even went a step further and left grinding compound in my bolt, just trying to destroy my $500 Hart barrel.

Check out also on pg 32 what Rem says is their 'latest greatest edition of out of the box accuracy' the 770.

DM, let us know how they shoot.

It is always a good practice to clean your equipment prior to firing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 6.5BR:
2007 catalog description has NO mention of stainless on pages 32-33 regarding the 7 XCR. On page 95 specs-says BARREL MATERIAL 416 Stainless. Nothing else is mentioned about Stainless.

How much more do you need?
It's stainless. If you don't like Remington's then don't buy them.
I have owned far too many Remington's to give an ounce of belief in all of these bullshit stories.
Did you ever stop to wonder if your gunsmith might have left "grinding compound" in your gun after installing your Hart barrel.
And yes you should send a thank you letter.

Did you ever stop to wonder if your gunsmith might have left "grinding compound" in your gun after installing your Hart barrel.
And yes you should send a thank you letter. [/QUOTE]

Well let's see KC, the gun was bought NEW, sent to HART, fired at the range a few trips, taken to Colorado, back to the range and the first shot that trip the handle fell off. Then to Remington, and when it came back from Rem, the bolt would hardly cock and the firing pin would not operate, this was done PRIOR to me doing any firing, so I took the bolt apart, cleaned it all out, it was SLAM full of gritty compound, and cleaned the barrel.

As to Rem 7 XCR action being a coated carbon steel or Stainless coated, as far as I am concerned no one has convinced me, not that I care. I have no interest in having any more new Rem's after the numerous NEW junk guns I have purchased. Perhaps you never have had a bad one, but I can assure you, I have had just as many that had defects and problems as not. Just how many NEW Rem 700's have YOU bought, over what years KC?

You KC are a smart ... Hart did the barrel, and Remington got the compound in the bolt long afterwards.

I have no Bull... as you say. Why would someone make up what I have said? You have a great day.

302, 303, 304 stainless steels are close to non-magnetic, 410 and 416 steels have some magnetic proprities.

Stainless steels are not 100% chemically inert. But the different alloys have different strengths and weaknesses. Some of the best examples of how the various alloys perform differently are found in high performance liquid fueld rocket motors.

By the way, KC, just so you READ my original post, I said ACTION, and my reply above talks about the BARREL being stainless.

My comments were focused on whether the ACTION is stainless or not, had nothing to do with the barrel. I referred to the catalog as the ONLY mention of stainless was regarding the barrel.

I just want to be sure you were clear on my original question. Perhaps you overlooked that fact.

Dear 6.5 BR,

As far as how many new Remington's I have bought, counting the 4 in my safe, and others that have come and gone I can recall twelve.
I appreciate your time and effort on this matter.
And yes I am a smart ass. At least I am not afraid to write it.
I will have an excellent day.

If they are coating stainless it may lead to more problems than just leaving it bare. Stainless dosen't have a real good history of dealing with paints or other coverings. An oxygen differential is usually more of a problem than just high but uniform oxygen exposure. Hoever, I'm sure they did their homework on the design.

I have ran into some quality issues with their newer rifle products. Failure to feed or extract on a 700 in 300 RUM in particular. Their shotguns have been flawless to me. Nobody is perfect.

I got the same one. I didn't see it before i bought it, but it feels much nicer than the other Remingtons. Works well too.

quote:

Originally posted by R Flowers:
It is quite clear in the Remington catalog that the XCR is a stainless barrel and action with a special coating to make it even more rust resistant. It even has a nickle plated trigger mechanism that should resist any rusting.

I have a Remington XCR that I really like. It is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Limited Edition from last year chambered in 300 WSM. It is a great rifle that handles well and feels lighter than it really is.

I really have not hunted in any bad weather conditions with it as of yet. But having said that, if I were going to Canada or Alaska for a bear hunt, that would be the rifle I would take.

Which remington was that? If you're talking about 7oo sps, those rifles have never been finished.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
2007 catalog description has NO mention of stainless on pages 32-33 regarding the 7 XCR. On page 95 specs-says BARREL MATERIAL 416 Stainless. Nothing else is mentioned about Stainless.

DM, I guess I should send a thank you letter to Rem for all the junk they sent out their factory? Like the bolt handle that fell off a new rifle, fired very little, they even went a step further and left grinding compound in my bolt, just trying to destroy my $500 Hart barrel.

Check out also on pg 32 what Rem says is their 'latest greatest edition of out of the box accuracy' the 770.

DM, let us know how they shoot.

I've harvested several bears over the years includeing brown bears...

99% of them were taken with with "at least" a Rem 700 action... I've yet to have a problem with a 700 rifle, and i've owned a lot of different ones since my first one in 1971. (i think)

My "go to" rifle for browns has always been custom .338-06 built on a 700 Rem. acrion...

It's in the pict below.

DM

All I can say DM, may you NEVER have a bolt handle break when you REALLY need it and you are facing a Brownie.

You darned sure better make the first shot count if you did have the handle fall off like mine and hope you have something for a backup i.e. handgun/pepper spray or another partner.

My 700 that broke was also a 338-06 and was sold due to what happened, would never give it a chance to break again on a big game hunt, much less dangerous game.

The sad thing is that I had a SS BDL 700 in 338 Win Mag, and when inspecting the gun, NEW IN BOX, the brazing was LACKING having a void of much metal that should have been there, so IT too went to Rem BEFORE I gave it a chance to break, so after it came back and test firing, I decided to 'lose it' as most hunters seemed to want a CRF anyway for a 338 WM and hunting for or in the area of bears.

I do seem to recall I have heard of those who 'pin' the bolt handles to the body. That would be some insurance, but I'd rather have a 1 piece bolt handle/body.

I did suspect Stainless bolts PERHAPS had more potential for the brazing to break away, but I am no metallurgists so I can't say.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
...Anyone have more info on the 'stainless looking' rifles that have this new 'coating?'

Hey 6.5BR, Yes, it is a Stainless Rifle that has a new Coating applied that is even more impervious to harsh environmental conditions.

quote:

Just curious, not that I want any Remington, but the idea that Rem was 'cutting corners' again got my attention. Would there be ANY benefit vs using Stainless, OTHER than lower production costs is the question? I guess it just seems 'deceptive'

Naw, your view has simply lead you down the wrong trail. And now you are missing out on a truely outstanding rifle.

They didn't "Cost Reduce" it at all, simply enhanced the best production rifle made for a few of us folks that Hunt really inclimate weather. And we certainly appreciate ALL of their attention to our needs.

Lots of new things going on at Remington just like it always has.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills, with whatever firearms you choose to use.

quote:

All I can say DM, may you NEVER have a bolt handle break when you REALLY need it and you are facing a Brownie.

It's been working perfectly since "77" when i built "that" one, you do the math...

So has all the other 700's i own too...

DM

I do not recommend stainless actions based on my experience with a M70 classic in stainless steel. The problem I have is galling. The bolt lugs are stainless and so is the receiver ring. When I have had a tight cartridge, one that takes effort to close the bolt, I have found galling smudges on the bolt locking lugs. This happens even though I have liberally coated the lugs in RIG +P grease.

I have heard that one manufacturer uses chrome moly lugs on the end of a stainless bolt, there would be no stainless on stainless, and therefore no galling.

I do not live in a hot wet envirnoment, so the old chrome moly actions are good enough for me, and I am not out in the rain long enough to take advantage of the rust resistance of stainless.

I give stainless actions a thumb down. The barrels are OK.

HOTCORE,

I appreciate your opinion as to what is the 'BEST production rifle' but we all have our opinions too.

RELIABILITY is one area I will not accept less than 100% on a hunting rifle, and Remington has failed me, and lost me as a customer. It is that simple. Nothing can change that.

As to your posting of the 'marketing phrase' above, the Coating may be more impervious, but that does not say it is applied to stainless or not.

Understand the rationale for my question. In my mind, Stainless is good enough for resisting the elements. To apply a coating to stainless makes VERY little to NO sense to me logically. For one it May not adhere as well, or BOND if you will, and second, IF you have a coated receiver, WHAT IS the point of having a more expensive core metal if it is not exposed? From a manufacturing standpoint, I cannot accept corporate america doing things that way, Unless
A) it is cheaper to work the Stainless metal, even though the raw costs is greater.

B) The overall costs of the gun is increased at least equal if not greater than the increase in mfg costs, which HAS to be hire adding a coating, ALL things equal.

Now you all tell me how many Stainless guns have you had that had a real problem resisting the elements unless really abused? Most of us don't hunt near salt water to my knowledge. Nor leave guns wet. I just cannot see any REAL benefit to the average hunter over Stainless, with the exception of galling. I think that issue was greater when firearms were FIRST made with Stainless, esp. revolvers, etc. but I know there are different hardness stainless components used that contact one another to avoid or lessen galling, or as slamfire says CM steel is used on lugs of rifles.

I simply asked the question, but it amazes me that people refuse to accept the truth and facts of MY experiences with Remington.

DM, I truly wish no bad for you or anyone, especially when after dangerous game to have a failure in the field.

I wonder if my butt got eaten by a grizzly and a lawyer was in court with Remington showing that failed defectively ENGINEERED and Manufactured bolt handle, along with all the facts and analysis of what was involved in the SUB Par mfg of my bolt on that 700, WHO would win?

NO, it would not help me, but if the facts were presented, and say I had a good first shot but the bear ate me because I could not cycle the gun, what gives I ask you all?

Nothing, Remington would lose the case, though I'd still be 6ft under.

I will be darned if I ever take a Remington rifle EVER on a serious big game hunt PERIOD.

That is MY opinion, MY choice, based on MY experiences.

You all can do whatever makes you happy. Why would Remington coat a stainless receiver yet fail to Pin or change the mfg of HOW they produce bolt handles/body?

Perhaps the failure rate is 'acceptable' to their standards but ONE failure of a bolt handle is COMPLETELY unacceptable, period. Now as to the new triggers, they are an improvement out of the box in weight required to release the firing pin, YET I believe a re-design was to change the safety risk as it is engineered to not have as many or the same issues as the original Rem trigger design, that has costs them many lawsuits, and owners loss of limb or life. Those costs get passed on to all new Remington products as you might can imagine.

Now back to my OP. I have an inquiry to Rem on IF the receivers on the Model 7 XCR are Stainless or not underneath the nickel coating. Like I said, I will buy nothing new Rem, likely nothing used, and simply was curious as to what BIG GREEN is up to, but I can assure you if you were at the SHOT show as I was, in their booth, they are not customer focused as other companies such as Ruger and others are, and that is proven by how the major companies treated me and responded to my questions.

No one else seems to have a concrete answer but thanks for the opinions.

Rem got big by making good guns of yesterday, but I have not witnessed a change in their thinking since the quality control issues that began in the 90's that was when I was plaqued with poor mfg defects in MANY 700's newly mfg and purchased.

Leupold the same way, but folks, they don't make perfect products either, and many of those get returned, it's murphy's law.

I am not alone in what happened to my Rem, as I have heard of others, albeit however rare it is, I have YET to hear of one Winchester, Howa, Savage, Ruger, Sako or other brand rifle have a bolt handle fail. A bolt action is USELESS when a handle comes off I can assure you and all the self claimed 'most accurate rifle' out of the box marketing crap cannot help it go Bang.

Folks, I do not argue with YOUR experience, but because mine varies, that does not make ANYTHING I have said something other than the truth. I am completely aware of the loyal Rem owners out there and hope you don't have the headaches Rem rifles gave me as I myself don't spend money to acquire problem products, and Rem lack of quality in the past has conditioned me to not go down that road again. I am sure there must be at least ONE Remington employee lurking out there on these forums, with propaganda.

My experience that I state comes from truth. Like it or not, it is what it is.

Be glad most you who responded have not shared the same, and I hope you don't have to.

quote:

Understand the rationale for my question. In my mind, Stainless is good enough for resisting the elements. To apply a coating to stainless makes VERY little to NO sense to me logically. For one it May not adhere as well, or BOND if you will, and second, IF you have a coated receiver, WHAT IS the point of having a more expensive core metal if it is not exposed? From a manufacturing standpoint, I cannot accept corporate america doing things that way, Unless
A) it is cheaper to work the Stainless metal, even though the raw costs is greater.

B) The overall costs of the gun is increased at least equal if not greater than the increase in mfg costs, which HAS to be hire adding a coating, ALL things equal.

Here's the bottom line... Stainless "isn't" the best material to make guns out of, so EVERYONE uses stainless with some carbon steel in it... Then they "will and do" rust! Just not as easily...

Rem. aparently took it one step further and coated theirs to make it even more rust resistant... Sounds like a good move if you hunt where it's needed...


Every thing built by man has failed at some time... EVERYTHING! Every brand of gun has had failures!!!

I had a Wby Mk 5 bolt come out of the gun when i racked the bolt for a second shot on a moose... It broke the bolt stop when i pulled it back... I've seen and repaired Rugers, Mausers ect... Every brand has had failures at some point!

The bolt came off your Rem... So you try to make it sound like EVERY bolt comes off EVERY Rem... I say hogwash! I've fired thousands and thousands of rounds with 700's and have NEVER had one fail in the field or on the range...

I choose to use MY experiences with them instead of your's...

DM

quote:

Every thing built by man has failed at some time... EVERYTHING! Every brand of gun has had failures!!!

You can say that again!

Every production rifle on the market has it's fair share of failures. Ruger, Winchester, Sako, Remington, Browning, Savage, You name it, I've heard of failures with plenty of them.

I'd be willing to bet if you figured the number of Remington 700s made to the number that actually failed and did the same with the other brands, the percentage of failures would most likely be less than the others.

The 700 is still the most popular action on the market and will remain so for many more years. Doesn't mean you have to like them.

Reloader

DM, READ my post above yours. I CLEARLY said, 'albeit however rare.'

READ before you reply stating I am inferring ALL rems bolts fail. That is NOT what I said, nor implied. Now as to the problems I personally have experienced, and even seen those of other Rem owners, they are not, were not limited to bolt failures.

I simply refuse to trust Rem again on a serious hunt based 1) on reliability concerns alone. That is my choice.

As to Stainless containing Carbon steel. I understand that, but do you think Rem would coat Stainless and not charge for the increased production costs? Do you feel you NEED increased protection on stainless? By all means buy and use whatever you feel is best for you.

Once Ford claimed the Taurus was the most popular fleet vehicle out in the market. Does that make it the best?

My neighbor has about 100k miles on his newly purchased Taurus, and has had a transmission AND motor replaced. I think his feelings about Ford are about like mine with Remington.

As to which brands have had returns, failures, complaints.....I have personally NEVER once heard of a failure, nor experienced it with Sako, and been very satisfied with Rugers. Winchester had some issues on some guns, most notably a coyote 223, the barrel was very messed up just inches from the muzzle-right from the factory. Others model 70's did not have problems, nor the browning I owned. Have heard of a few complaints with extractors on Savage, and that is about it. Of all you mentioned above, I would trust a Ruger and Sako on a serious hunt out of the box. Others I would pass, unless you are talking a Winchester of known quality, and my most recent purchased Winchester, a Stainless FWT 6.5x55 had no quality issues whatsoever, other than Winchester is no longer producing them.

Reloader, if you talk to people 'in the know' re: Remington, it seems like the employees of yesteryear that produced better guns, have been laid off long ago and less experienced workers replaced them. Rem is about getting as many guns off the production lines as quickly as possible and lemons get out the door I can assure you just as it would more so if other companies tried to push the production volume envelope. Toyota and Honda has beat Ford and Chevy at their game.

The overseas companies in my opinion have been doing the same in the gun industry. Looking at the average Howa made in Japan, I akin the quality as to a Honda/Toyota vs a Remington that looks like sad to say, a US made brand.

Corporate America CEO's are responsible as much as anyone. Their greed puts emphasis on 'bean counting' more than quality. Japan figured this out long ago, build a better product and build better brand loyalty.

If you have been around long enough you might remember the old 2 piece drive shafts say on a 64 chevy. That had more problems than a 1 piece as the swing bearing was a weak link and often failed. Now look at a Rem rifle bolt, the brazing is a weak link, ESP. when not done properly which is what slips by in quality control on an assembly line.

It may not fail often, but if it does, and esp. on a serious hunt, trust me, you will be ready to wrap the gun around a tree.

Like I said, I hope you all never experience the problems I have, esp. when it counts. Have a great day.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
...As to your posting of the 'marketing phrase' above, the Coating may be more impervious, but that does not say it is applied to stainless or not.

I told you, "Yes, it is a Stainless Rifle that has a new Coating applied that is even more impervious to harsh environmental conditions.", in my first post. Not an opinion, simply fact.

quote:

Understand the rationale for my question.

Don't need to. Now I realize that all you are interested in doing is trashing Remington and when folks answer your questions with "Facts" you want to down-play them, claim your question wasn't answered, or infer the person must be wrong.

quote:

Most of us don't hunt near salt water to my knowledge. Nor leave guns wet. I just cannot see any REAL benefit to the average hunter over Stainless, with the exception of galling.

That is because you really don't know who is responding and how we Hunt. Your lack of understanding concerning the subject is indeed worthy of discussion, but I've no desire to argue with you and it is blatently obvious all you really want to do is trash Remington, rather than have the Straw Dog questions answered.

quote:

I simply asked the question, but it amazes me that people refuse to accept the truth and facts of MY experiences with Remington.

I believe you had a Bolt Handle come off. And whatever firearms you choose to use is no concern of mine - best of luck with them.

quote:

I will be damned if I ever take a Remington rifle EVER on a serious big game hunt PERIOD.

There is a 14 year old Preacher on AR now who takes objection to your vulgarity. I sure hope he doesn't start PREACHING on this Board.

quote:

You all can do whatever makes you happy.

Thank you. I try to do that ALL THE TIME.

quote:

Now as to the new triggers, they are an improvement out of the box in weight required to release the firing pin, YET I believe a re-design was to change the safety risk as it is engineered to not have as many or the same issues as the original Rem trigger design,

Obviously just a totally worthless "opinion" on your part since you really don't know "why".

quote:

No one else seems to have a concrete answer but thanks for the opinions.

When a Factual response is given, you have chosen not to accept it. No need to continue answering your Straw Dog questions.

quote:

DM, READ my post above yours. I CLEARLY said, 'albeit however rare.'

"If" i used your above criteria to decide what weapon to own/use, i wouldn't beable to use any of the guns you mentioned and MANY more. I use to repair firearms, and i'm here to tell you that every mfg. has had failures!

I honestly don't give a hoot what anyone elses uses, i choose to go by my own experiences, and it appears i've owned a LOT more Rem's than you have... At one time i had 45 bolt actions alone that i hunted with, and my buddy had over 150 Rems that he hunted with and reloaded for..

I don't "trust" any gun out of the box! I check them out and get some range time in BEFORE takeing them afield, and i sure as heck would clean one first!

As for the need to increase the protection of stainless... Take one out "around" salt water, and you can decide for yourself... I've seen stainless guns fail that test again and again... Just because you or i don't need something, doesn't mean no one does!

BTW, GM is STILL the number one car producer, so Toyota hasn't passed them -----> yet...

DM

Hotcore, WHERE is it said from Remington that the model 7 XCR is a stainless action? Quote our source sir.

If Rem says it, then so be it, but I have yet to see it in their literature, and I am awaiting a response from Remington. I don't hunt in or near salt water, and I imagine a majority in this country does not either. Regardless that was not my question. By the way, my blued guns are rust free, I keep care of them.

Hey DM, that 700 of mine WAS rebarreled new, range tested several times, and the what Rem left in the bolt was done after the rebarrel, after the range sessions, and after my elk hunt. I never pulled the trigger on my hunt, but when I got back from the hunt, the VERY first shot at the range, the handle just fell off. Now how would you feel if you were on a hunt, and the first shot fired, your handle fell off? I guess you could super glue it right?

I keep all my guns cleaned, and clean all new ones before shooting them out of the box.

DM, I guess you are one of those who if you did have a bolt handle fall off, you would continue trusting that gun, or others of that brand/engineering on an expensive hunt in a remote location. Well I wish you the best that it never happens to you.

Continue enjoying your Rems and hope they never fail in the field on an important serious hunt, esp. in bear country. I won't do it.

And by the way, I apologize for slipping and saying a bad word on the forum.

Hey 6.5BR,

What part of the below "don't" you understand????

DM

quote:

"If" i used your above criteria to decide what weapon to own/use, i wouldn't beable to use any of the guns you mentioned and MANY more. I use to repair firearms, and i'm here to tell you that every mfg. has had failures!

So what you are saying is ALL guns have had CATASTROPHIC failures, to the point they FAIL completely to go Bang or Extract a case and feed another? Why is it that I NEVER heard of nor experienced a Ruger handle breaking or an extractor failure? Could it be that Ruger's design was engineered better? Or quality control better?

Same with Sako and Winchester? I guess you will tell me that you have yourself witnessed and repaired failed bolt handles and extractors on Ruger, Sako, and Winchester right?

I don't believe that. The fact is certain brands are more or less prone to failure based on the engineering design alone, let alone quality control.

Why is it gunsmiths install Sako extractor's on Remington bolts? Why is it that gunsmiths 'modify Rem bolts' with pins?

To IMPROVE a design flaw. That simple. Remingtons have some 'weak links' in their design whether you want to admit it and accept it or not.

Hey, did you ever see the guy who was burned so bad from a fire due to a Ford Crown Victoria defect that caused the gas tank to catch on fire. He was burned so bad you could not see a human face. If he had known the defect, do you think he would have chosen to drive one?

So it is with Remington having a product that has engineering weaknesses that show in usage.

The Remington action has many strengths, but it is not the end all that some want to believe, it could stand some serious changes for maximizing reliability, which is why big game hunters after dangerous game often use another brand. Having bought many years ago, MANY 700's and Model 7's, I still have a few now, w/o problems, but will not buy another, and will not take one on a serious hunt. I think they are better suited for targets and varmint hunting since less is 'at stake' vs. an expensive big game hunt, or dangerous game hunt.

You do what you want, and that is fine with me, we choose to disagree. That is our right.

Have a great day.

quote:

So what you are saying is ALL guns have had CATASTROPHIC failures, to the point they FAIL completely to go Bang or Extract a case and feed another? Why is it that I NEVER heard of nor experienced a Ruger handle breaking or an extractor failure? Could it be that Ruger's design was engineered better? Or quality control better?

Yes i've seen a Ruger extractor fail, and NO i've never had a Rem. 700 fail in the field in any way...

Yes i've seen a new style Win. 70 extractor fail, and as for Rem. extractors, that's a subject i do know quite a bit about...

I ran an extensive test long ago compareing numerous brands of extractors. (Rem, Sako, Win, Ruger ect..) I'm not going to type it all again now, but i managed to pull Ruger, Rem. and Win extractors off stuck cases, all with about the same amount of abuse to the gun. None of the extractors them selves failed, and in many cases, the Rem. pulled more of the rim off the stuck case than the others...

I'm telling you facts, your not listening, instead you stuck in whine mode... and i'm not the only one here seeing it...

BTW, the only 700 bolts i've seen with the bolt handle off, were knocked off useing a hammer handle or something similar to beat on it to remove a stuck case... I've seen more than a dozen of 700's that didn't come off even when beat on.

DM

Sir: I can assure you, I did not, nor anyone else 'beat on the bolt handle' ever on my rifle and I bought it NEW in box unfired, and was the only person to use it.

I can believe what your experience has been, and can tell you, that it is the FIRST time I have heard of any Ruger failing, or Winchester for that matter, and I am referring to major mechanical failures, not cosmetic or accuracy issues. I accept your facts, and I have stated mine. Obviously our experiences have varied, I accept that fact too.

I wish you the best of continued success in whatever you use. Have a nice day.

quote:

Reloader, if you talk to people 'in the know' re: Remington, it seems like the employees of yesteryear that produced better guns, have been laid off long ago and less experienced workers replaced them. Rem is about getting as many guns off the production lines as quickly as possible and lemons get out the door I can assure you just as it would more so if other companies tried to push the production volume envelope. Toyota and Honda has beat Ford and Chevy at their game.

Please give us your sources for folks "in the know."

You clearly have beef with Remington. If you don't like them, don't use them but, you're fighting a losing battle trying to get the folks around here to agree with you. The Model 700 is here to stay. Remington is still building good rifles and I believe they will continue to do so for many years. I have yet to come across a Remington 700 rifle that was a lemon and I've owned quite a few as well as done custom loading and trigger jobs on countless others. Maybe one day the bolt handle on one is going to just fall off in my hand If it does, I'll have it fixed. Another intresting fact is that I've honestly never worked with a 700 that wouldn't shoot sub-moa bone stock. That says something about Remington in itself. I'll also say that I've shot plenty of other rifles that were just plain inaccurate, Win and Ruger are first to come to mind. That doesn't mean they are all bad shooters but, it's certainly more of a gamble with certain brands than others.

6.5BR, You speak highly of Ruger, I wish they were known for accuracy because they do have a descent design. I've honestly personally never shot an real accurate Ruger and I've shot several. Know quite a few guys that hunt with them and most of theirs will do around 1.5-2moa which is fine for deer hunting at short range but sours my feelings toward them in general. Does that mean they are bad rifles, no. I even have one buddy that had a problem with his Ruger misfiring this past season(snap without touching the primer). Does that mean they are total garbage? No. All factory rifles of any make have their own fair share of problems.

I'll keep faithful to Remington and you all keep faithful to whatever brand you please, I really don't care what you like but, don't tell me my rifles are crap!

I've purchased 4 Remington rifles in the past year and all 4 will print sub moa, 3 will do sub 1/2moa. Remington still builds good, accurate, & dependable rifles and they have one heck of a reputation for doing so.


Ya'll have a Good One,

Reloader

Well yes. Unless I missed it, why coat the bolt or action to aid against rust, but not the barrel? Would the coating be an aid to stop galling?

Reloader,

We all have different experiences, now you are from the south, but let's say you went out west and that handle DOES come loose, what are you going to do in the field to save the hunt, OR if you are needed to save your tail from a dangerous animal, what will you do in that moment of crisis?

I realize Rem puts out accurate guns, I have some, and I also had lemons. Someone in North LA I know had a Sendero that would do 2-2.5"

Likewise, my Ruger 350 mag would keep 2 out of 3 in an inch at 200 yds. Older Rugers as you should know had outsourced barrels. Perhaps you are not familiar with new ones. I have had #1's that shoot under MOA out of the box, and many people say that they will not shoot with a bolt.

Congrats on having problem free Rems and I DID NOT say YOUR rifles are crap.

What is Fact is, that you are taking a Gamble with Remington with a bolt handle coming loose, and I don't care if it was 1 chance in 10,000, because it was a 100% risk/failure with my rifle. I could care less about what happens to YOUR rifles. Your buddy, just might have had a handload with a primer seated too deep, something to consider. I have NEVER had a Ruger bolt or falling block fail to extract. I have with Rem on more than one occasion.

I will not chance a Remington again on a serious hunt, that simple, end of story. Funny not a single person has mentioned a failure of a bolt handle, extraction, OR accuracy issues with Sako.

Could it just be that SAKO builds a better rifle? ABSOLUTELY.

Rem's costs less, so they sell more. They costs less because they spend less to mfg them.

As to my source, it was a former Rem employee on this board who PM me and wished to remain anonymous.

As to your observation, yes I have a beef with Rem as I wasted many dollars, alot of time, and had alot of headaches dealing with them. Your mileage varied, and good for you.

I won't be buying more Rems and that is my choice and I wish you the best with yours. There are better rifles being made today, and I know for a fact other brands shoot with and some better than Rem. Accuracy is not a REMINGTON PRODUCT.

KEEPING faithful to any brand regardless of quality control is the very reason that it happened and continued. When a company gets enough complaints or loss of sales (lack of votes with dollars) then they change. Remember the keylock? Now it's gone. How about the triggers that got Rem in lawsuits? Now it's being upgraded.

If Rem had a one piece bolt, a Sako extractor, and better quality control, then I might reconsider. I think the majority of Rems that plagued me were in the mid to upper 1990's mfg. Since then I have bought none so I cannot speak as to how well they shoot out of the box and I have not examined closely barrels on enough new ones of recent mfg but seen several in the past with flaws very visible with the naked eye. That is unacceptable.

Perhaps my 'boycotting Rem' if you will, is currently justified more because of how many times they burned me in the past, but I work hard for my money and refuse to chance burning more dollars on chancing a Rem, when I KNOW I can buy a better built rifle, some for less money that will provide VERY good accuracy.

Accuracy is nice, but it is only ONE dimension of a hunting rifle. Anyone shooting serious competition builds there own anyway.

quote:

What is Fact is, that you are taking a Gamble with Remington with a bolt handle coming loose, and I don't care if it was 1 chance in 10,000, because it was a 100% risk/failure with my rifle.

AND, YOU are takeing a gable with your Ruger... I've seen an extractor fail, someone else has seen one misfire (actually i have too) so maybe you should NEVER use another Ruger!

What would you do if you was faceing a brown bear and your Ruger misfired??????????? What would you do if you wounded it and your Ruger extractor failed?????????????????? Even if it's 1 in 10,000 your STILL takeing a chance with that Ruger!!

DM

quote:

We all have different experiences, now you are from the south, but let's say you went out west and that handle DOES come loose, what are you going to do in the field to save the hunt, OR if you are needed to save your tail from a dangerous animal, what will you do in that moment of crisis?

Honestly I'd probably have more of a chance of my Leupold mounts breaking loose and falling to my feet at the moment of truth I'd have as much or more of a chance at probably a dozen other brand rifles failing as well. I don't sweat the small stuff. If I worried about every piece of equipment possibly failing on a trip, I might as well just sit at home.

I will say that it is a good practice to carry a back-up rifle on long trips. Never know what may happen to whatever type of rifle you own.

Good Luck

Reloader

6.5 I'VE NEVER SEEN A BOLT HANDEL FALL OFF ANYTHING THAT DIDN'T HAVE A CUTTING TORCH PUT TO IT.

HOT CORE WELL SAID.

I'm not a one mfg guy but do own a few Rem rifles and all have been well made, and do realize paying $700-$1000 for a gun you get production line and not a $5000 custom, were fit along with finish can be subject to an inspector on the line.

My son who lives in AK just bought last week a new SS with coating he told me it's just what the DR. ordered for AK.

A month or so back on the ODC one of the programs had the new 07 Rem. line AND YES THEY ARE SS WITH A COATING.

Thank you. I'll start another thread and go into a few more details about the M700 XCR All-Weather.