bore scope comparison of factory vs match

26 April 2007, 23:35

lee440

If everyone had a borescope, they would probably start shooting more poorly with their favorite tack driver. If you saw how the engine in your favorite brand of auto was assembled and machined , you would have fits. If they tore the sheetrock off the walls in your house, or just took a level to the structure, most people would be shocked. Comparing a Lilja hand lapped barrel to a factory Rem is apples to oranges. Chevy to Rolls. If you would pay $600 +more for Rem to use a Lilja barrel and the market was there, it would probably be an option. I suspect the Rem barrel would still shoot to around an inch and if hand lapped like the Lilja, probably would not foul too bad. You get what you pay for, thats why the guys like Lilja exist, and why quality always costs.

26 April 2007, 23:58

SempreElk

Lilja probably wanted to display the worst barrel interior vs the their own product. FOr what Remington is charging these days the barrels should be quite a bit better not Liljas but nevertheless if only to make cleaning easier.

28 April 2007, 19:52

KSTEPHENS

i'd like to compare a steyr hammer forged to a lija.

29 April 2007, 04:38

smedley

quote:
Originally posted by SempreElk:
Lilja probably wanted to display the worst barrel interior vs the their own product. FOr what Remington is charging these days the barrels should be quite a bit better not Liljas but nevertheless if only to make cleaning easier.

There are a few others to add to that list!
Even if they were to make a few passings with a lapping compound, it sure would help!

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29 April 2007, 05:51

KSTEPHENS

quote:
Originally posted by smedley:
quote:
Originally posted by SempreElk:
Lilja probably wanted to display the worst barrel interior vs the their own product. FOr what Remington is charging these days the barrels should be quite a bit better not Liljas but nevertheless if only to make cleaning easier.

looks like they were lapped with a brick.
i'll stick to cold hammer forged products. remington can sell that crap at walmart but im not bitin'.

There are a few others to add to that list!
Even if they were to make a few passings with a lapping compound, it sure would help!

30 April 2007, 07:34

Allan DeGroot

I think the barrel Lilja is showing is an older remington made before the switch to the hammer forged barrels.

If you truely believe that hammer forged tubes are that rough please shoot yourself for being criminally gullible.

And BTW there is NO detail given for the age of the remington tube either in terms of mfg date or rounds fired
and no other details given.

a NEW tube can easily be that rough but how much will it smooth out in 50-100 rounds?

Nothing against Dan the man, I'd dearly love to own one of his barrels, as he is an absolue artist at his craft, but the fact that he will NOT thread or chamber a barrel
so that only final fitting needs to be done leaves us all to take our chances having those tasks done by a lesser craftsman than Dan himself.

And since he won't install barrels on customer's actions
he purposely limits his buisness.

BTW that video may be new to you, but it's been around for quite some time.

AD

30 April 2007, 09:12

Double AA

The bottom line is how well does the rifle shoot. I have a 300 Weatherby w/Lija. a 7 STW AV Sako w/Shilen, a 22-250 Rem 788 w/Douglas. They all shoot well, but I have a factory Remington 338 RUM that puts them all to shame. I dont know what the inside of the barrel looks like in any of them, and unless there's a problem, it doesn't really matter.

30 April 2007, 09:48

shootaway

Double AA,I had the same experience,only my most accurate rifle was a factory Remington in 308.

30 April 2007, 17:08

KSTEPHENS

quote:
I think the barrel Lilja is showing is an older remington made before the switch to the hammer forged barrels.

the bbl blanks may be hammer forged but the rifling is still button cut as opposed to companies like steyr and CZ who polygonl rifle while the hammering prosses is going on.

30 April 2007, 17:35

SempreElk

Allan, it would depend on how many barrels are made per mandrel whether it is rough or not and affect accuracy. Most hammer forged rifle blanks are polished to remove imperfections before the actual process starts. Doesn't appear that Remington does that based on all the tool marks.

01 May 2007, 15:28

JAL

quote:
Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

the bbl blanks may be hammer forged but the rifling is still button cut as opposed to companies like steyr and CZ who polygonl rifle while the hammering prosses is going on.

This is news to me. I thought ALL hammer forged barrels included the rifleing, in fact, that was the sole reason to use those expensive machines. ???

01 May 2007, 15:54

DMB

quote:
This is news to me. I thought ALL hammer forged barrels included the rifleing, in fact, that was the sole reason to use those expensive machines. ???

You are right. The hammer forging produces the rifling.
Several custom barrel makers button rifle their barrels, with others cutting the rifling.
My only experience with custom barrels is with button rifled ones like Hart, Douglas, Shilen and Lilja make. These barrels are very smooth inside and all shoot well. IIRC, Kreiger cuts their rifling, and they shoot very well too. All of the above makers lap their barrels after rifling the bores. Not many factory barrels are lapped, which would add to the price of the rifle over what we now pay for them now. So, my solution is to do a "poor man's" lapping job on factory barrels when I first buy the rifle. I don't pour lead slugs in the bores loaded with lapping compound. I use a tight fitting patch loaded with JB Bore Paste and run that through the bore 100 strokes, to polish the tool mars out of the bore. Judging from how much steel I polish out (black crud), it must be doing some good. Groups sure tighten up too. My last four factory barrels I polished shot groups no larger than 3/8" c-t-c at 100 yards for three shots. The rifles were all 22 Centerfire chamberings.
My point here is that factory barrels are not custom made barrels that are lapped when you get them. You pay for the lapping in the high price of a custom made barrel. You can make a very accurate barrel out of a factory barrel by doing the "lapping" yourself. You get what you pay for, and until consumers demand that factory barrels be lapped when you get the rifle, we are confined to unlapped barrels on all of the factory rifles we buy.
Of course, if we demand lapped factory barrels, we will pay more for the rifle.

Don

01 May 2007, 15:54

eddieharren

Hammer forged barrels are NOT "button cut"!
Button rifled barrels are NOT "button cut"!
Cut rifled barrels are NOT "button cut"!
Forged barrels are just exactly that. The rifling is formed by pressing a barrel blank over a mandrel which has the lands and grooves on it.
Button rifled barrels are made by either pulling or pushing a carbide button through the barrel. The button has the lands and grooves ground on it.
Cut rifled barrels are rifled by pulling a cutter or broach through the barrel. The cutter is ground to the width of the groove.
Schneider Polygonal barrels are button rifled.

01 May 2007, 17:03

KSTEPHENS

From the remington web site...
Receivers are machined from solid billets of select ordnance grade steel and barrels are hammer forged, button rifled, and chambered one at a time...

01 May 2007, 18:10

1894mk2

My stainless remington M700 barrel fouls less than any of my shihlens and border cut rifle barrels and shoot as accurately. I paid a small amount of attention to it's break less than I did to the others.

01 May 2007, 18:38

Rojelio

quote:
Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
From the remington web site...
Receivers are machined from solid billets of select ordnance grade steel and barrels are hammer forged, button rifled, and chambered one at a time...

Don't hold me to this, but, I think Remington's run of the mill barrels are hammer forged and they use a few aftermarket barrels (I think Shilen on their Senderos) are button rifled.

Their barrels are one or the other, but, not both hammer forged and button rifled.

Rojelio

01 May 2007, 18:42

SempreElk

No one has ever come to any conclusion on whether tool marks in the bore make any difference in accuracy. I would imagine straightness and less variance throughout the bore as being paramount. A sloppy bore like that will just be a PITA to clean compared to a nice uniform handlapped bore.

01 May 2007, 18:42

AZ Pete

The Lilja barrel sure looks nice. That said, Remingtons generally shoot pretty well when they come from the factory, so...just how important is the mirror finish when considering a hunting rifle?

01 May 2007, 20:22

SempreElk

Mirror finish keeps it easier to clean but if you notice this video there were lands with gouges on them as well. It would remove enough bullet material to "maybe" affect a target at very long distance since the bullets would not be uniformly engraved. It would probably affect you if you were shooting long strings of bullets at long range without cleaning.

01 May 2007, 21:08

Saeed

Of all the large bore barrel makers, we have found Lilja barrels to be extremely accurate.

Having said that, we have never found any barrel from the major barrel makers - Lilja, Hart, Shilen, Douglas, Kreiger - to be inaccurate.

The only ones we had problems with were those called "black star" barrels. They were simply awful.

No wonder they went out of business.

I have a Shilen and a Lilja barrel on each of my 375/404 rifles.

My other hunting rifle, a 30/404, has a Lilja barrel.

We get quite a few rifles here from the major European manufacturers, and I can tell you none would shoot CONSISTENTLY as good as those we build ourselves using one of the barrels from the above mentioned makers.

One of the worst looking barrels from the inside was a 243 Winchester made by BSA, followed by one from Sauer.

01 May 2007, 21:23

KSTEPHENS

remington actually advertises the sendero as cold hammer forged BBL.
the above was taken direct from remingtons web site and says the BBL is both hammer forged and button rifled.
i am still waiting for that to be explained.

01 May 2007, 21:33

Rojelio

quote:
Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
remington actually advertises the sendero as cold hammer forged BBL.
the above was taken direct from remingtons web site and says the BBL is both hammer forged and button rifled.
i am still waiting for that to be explained.

According to Jeffeosso (moderator of the gunsmithing forum), he visited Ed Shilen's shop and from Ed Shilen's own mouth he said that he makes all of the Sendero barrels for Remington.

I wasn't there so it is heresay. Take it for what it's worth.

Rojelio

01 May 2007, 21:59

KSTEPHENS

from remington...
model 7 MS "Each barrel is hammer forged, contoured, button-rifled, chambered, and crowned for unmatched accuracy"
700 ABG " Each barrel is hammer forged..."
700 KS" and barrels are hammer forged, button rifled, "
7 AWR "Barrels are hammer forged from rugged stainless steel and then carefully contoured, button rifled, chambered, and crowned."

So, someone explain to me how remington button rifles BBL's that are hammer forged. or at least why.

article on hammer forging

02 May 2007, 15:56

KSTEPHENS

hello?

02 May 2007, 16:10

eddieharren

K, I'm with you on this one. Maybe the same guy who put the picture of a hunter, shooting a Win. M70 in the 2007 Rem catalouge, put that info out on their barrels. I don't understand how a hammer forged barrel is also button rifled.

02 May 2007, 17:42

KSTEPHENS

after looking at that scope i am pretty sure remington bbls are not hammer forged.

02 May 2007, 22:25

Dwight

I fail to see the point to all your negative commnets. My two Rem factory barrels shoot in the .2s and I don't think your comments will ever change that nor prevent me from buying another.

03 May 2007, 00:35

tiggertate

quote:
Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:

So, someone explain to me how remington button rifles BBL's that are hammer forged. or at least why.

The third-party folks that put marketing material together rarely understand all the technical data they are given. It's not at all unusual for them to mis-state actual facts. Sometimes it is even intentional. The fact is, hammer-forged barrels are forged with rifling at Remington. The first barrels to come off of a new mandrel supposedly go to the custom shop and to the BDL/CDL line. As the mandrel wears but is still in spec, the barrels get put on the lower grade rifles and the last runs go to Wally-World type contract rifles.

This doesn't mean they're bad, just a prioritization based on production decisions. I bet that take-off is an older contract button-rifled barrel too. It does not resemble any forged barrel of mine; it looks a lot like my Savages in character if not in quality.

And like others said, they may still shoot just fine even when they look that bad. They will probably foul more for certain.

03 May 2007, 02:11

KSTEPHENS

quote:
The third-party folks that put marketing material together rarely understand all the technical data they are given. It's not at all unusual for them to mis-state actual facts. Sometimes it is even intentional. The fact is, hammer-forged barrels are forged with rifling at Remington. The first barrels to come off of a new mandrel supposedly go to the custom shop and to the BDL/CDL line. As the mandrel wears but is still in spec, the barrels get put on the lower grade rifles and the last runs go to Wally-World type contract rifles.

i love to know your source for that info.

03 May 2007, 04:22

tiggertate

If you mean the latter part, one of the larger stocking dealers in Texas was told that by Remington personnel about 4-5 five years ago. Management and/or policy changes may have happened since then but that was the story at the time.

03 May 2007, 05:07

KSTEPHENS

so you heard it from someone who heard it from someone 4-5 years ago?
I'm sold.

03 May 2007, 15:26

JAL

quote:
Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
so you heard it from someone who heard it from someone 4-5 years ago?
I'm sold.

Well, look at it from another way. Given the massive price of the hammer forgeing machines, why would they not do the rifleing at the same time, Or why hammer forge at all, if they are not doing rifleing? If they were going to button rifle, or cut, whatever, they'd just deep hole drill and turn it and wack the button through. (Never believe a sales brochure.

)

Some even hammer forge the chamber as well.

03 May 2007, 16:21

DMB

A side note.
Don't know if any of you have been around the hammer forging operation, but that hammer forging machine makes enough noise to wake up poeple down in the graveyard..

Don

03 May 2007, 16:46

KSTEPHENS

#1 if they hammerforged why wouldnt it be common knowlege. as soon as ruger started hammering BBls other than the 10/22T they shouted it from the rooftops. same with Steyr, CZ,ect.
#2 If they dont hammer forge the BBls then how did it get put on the web site?
#3 that bore scope of the remington BBL is not a CHF bbl, no doubt about it.
#4 the new Spartan line IS hammer forged, maybe they are buying bbls from the same place and then rifling them here? i dont know.
the whole "first bbls go to custom, last go to walmart is a stretch. the madrels are super tough and last almost forever.

the consistancy from BBL#1- BBl#100,000 is the main reason companies spend the 3-5 million start up to but the machine.
anyone interested in seeing the machine in operstion check out this link. this shows the entire capability of the CZ factory. go to production capabilities and scroll down to forging. there is a video of the machine at work.
ÄŒeskÃ¡ zbrojovka

03 May 2007, 18:13

tiggertate

quote:
Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
so you heard it from someone who heard it from someone 4-5 years ago?
I'm sold.

That's one way to put it. Actually, I spoke with someone I've known for 30 years who sells more Remington products per year than any independent dealer in the Southwest; who speaks to the factory two to three times a month. He happens to be the guy who convincved them to name the long range rifle they were building many years ago the "Sendero" after the spanish word used in South Texas for pipeline right-of-ways. So I think his credentials are adequate. But yeah, something might have changed since he told me that.

And yeah, mandrels are tough but they don't last through many thousands of barrels; they wear like any other tools.

03 May 2007, 18:43

KSTEPHENS

quote:
And yeah, mandrels are tough but they don't last through many thousands of barrels; they wear like any other tools.

they are made of carbide actually. and the better manufacturers ,g iven a good mandrel and clean, uniform steel, the process carries the dimensions through the bore within 0.0002â€ on a production basis. how the heck is remington supposed to measure greater than that to tell if one goes to the custom shop or to walmart.
i'm not buying that.

03 May 2007, 18:50

tiggertate

I'm not trying to sell anything for you to buy; just passing casual comments on an informal forum. I figure your actual out-of-pocket cost is exactly what it's worth. But if you want to make a big deal of it flame on.

03 May 2007, 18:55

KSTEPHENS

no, im not looking for that.
i'd like some solid info on how a company as large as remington can sell a rifle with a bbl that looks like that and advertise BBL's as being HF button rifled.
seems misleading to the point of fraud.
furthermore you have companies like Lija who make such assanine statements as this...

Hammer forging is used by many large firearms companies. The bored barrel steel is hammered around a steel rod that has a reverse image of the rifling. Machinery for hammer forging is very expensive. "About the only advantage of hammer forging is the high rate of production," Lilja said. "Because of all the pounding, though, a hammer forged barrel has lots of stress in the metal."
around a steel rod ?
thats pertty basic isnt it? not around a carbide madrel but "a steel rod", like they are using a piece of #4 rebar or something.
the only advantage?
please, what about uniformity?
what about smoothness without lapping?
what about a trapered bore?