I am currently looking for a caliber to convert an old model 600 Remington action to for the purpose of building a light mountain rifle for a horseback moose and elk hunt. I thought about the .358 Winchester and the 350 Remington Magnum, but both of these shoot a rainbow trajectory

I personally don't like Winchester Short Mag calibers for one simple reason -- they get their velocity from increased (damn near dangerous) pressure allowance by SAAMI. I have a custom .300 WSM that in order to come anywhere close to regular .300 mag. velocities, I have to push it right to the edge of sticky-bolt land, and factory ammo always produces sticky bolts in this gun. I don't like sticky bolts!

Then I read a recent article on the new .338 Federal. Apparently, this is simply the .338-08 (a necked up .308) standardized in a factory cartridge. Pushes a 200-grain bullet to 2700 fps., is a non-belted cartridge, and is seemingly capable of being shot out or a short action rifle without opening up the bolt face or drasticly altering the magazine.

Eureka! I had found my moose caliber. Then I read this information: The article said that the new cartridge is not suitable for short action rifles because Federal had gotten SAAMI to spec it at an OAL that made it too long for short action magazines.

Of course the article did not say why they would be so stupid to do this, however it is not hard to see why -- right out of the box, Sako came out with a rifle chambered to the round. What this does is keep folks like me from rechambering short-action rifles to it, which folks like me are want to do. Most folks with long actions laying around waiting for rechambering are not likely to chamber for a round so far below the potential of the action, so that kinda forces folks who want one to buy a Sako.

My question is to anyone who has built a "regular" .338-08 wildcat. By keeping your OAL capable of use in a short action, are you able to get velocities close to the new Federal advertised velocities? Any other recommendations for a hard hitting short-actiion caliber other than those mentioned above?

Thanks.

If I were you (clearly I am not you) I would not be so hung up on action length. I got to handle a new Kimber long action in 300 win, and it seemes to me a similar rifle in 338 win mag would fill your needs nicley. As for trajectory, how far do you plan to shoot. Out to 350 yards I am very confident in my 35 whelen. People over state the difference in trajectory cartridge to cartridge. There are not many rounds that shoor enough flatter then the 30,06, (allways a good measuring stick) to matter out to 400 yards, witch is farther than most should be shooting. ...tj3006

This caliber only makes sense if it is chambered in short action rifles, IMO.

GA: I love the short mags, but I also love the .308 Win. I wouldn't hesistate to use it on sheep, etc. Out to 500 yards, my .308 Win hits the target just as often as my .300 SAUM or RUMs. Past that, wind does take a bit of a toll, but the caliber is so easy to shoot, you can shoot a lot in windy conditions to really learn how to dope the wind - assuming you can practice somewhere at long range. And since I have never shot anything 500 yards away or farther, why not the .308?

I am definitely NOT hung up on short actions. I own 29 rifles and just two of them are short actioned. It just so happens that it is one of these two (it has a split stock) that I want to convert.

I already have a custom .35 Whelen, but it's in a seven pound rifle. I've got someone who will build me a 4.5 pound gun on my action for two grand even. Anyone who knows anything about these type of rifles knows that this is a bargin.

Yes, the plain vanilla .308 will kill just about anything in the world, but for moose, I would want to use 180 grain bullets, and the .308 performs best with 150s, IMHO. Use 180s, and the velocity falls off pretty bad.

But the .308 is my fall back option.

GA. Check out www.35caliber.com (I think that's the right URL). There's an article on the .358 Win. by Paco Kelly you might find interesting.
With a proper bullet, I wouldn't feel all that handicapped hunting moose using a .358.
Paul B.

do it in .358win. and never look back, big bullets work very well on moose. bill439

Build the 3378 Federal on a Montana Rifle Company short action. They'll actually take a 7x57 length cartridge.

Sorry, I'm having to deal with what I got -- a Model 600 action.

Anybody able to get 2500 fps out of the .358 with 225-grain bullets?

gahunter,
as of two weeks ago i spoke with several reamer manufacturers about that cartridge. i was told that the specs have not been accepted by saami. they all told me that they could produce me a reamer in a straight 338-308 but it might not be to the final accepted dimensions. the one who made the original reamers for federal told me to call back in the middle of feb and hopefully the specs will be worked out.
that was the story i was told?
max

I don't see it as being that big of a deal. The cartridge should perform just fine in short action rifles. Just use compact high energy powders and seat the bullets to function in a short magazine and it will be fine.

Sure, it won't be a 338 WM or even a 338-06. But it will be adequate out to 300 yards with 210 Np and lighter bullets. How much more do you need? If you need more than that, you already know what to get and it probably won't fit in a short action unless its a WSM...Rusty.

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Sorry, I'm having to deal with what I got -- a Model 600 action.

Anybody able to get 2500 fps out of the .358 with 225-grain bullets?

I have got 2519 fps averages using both IMR 4320 and H-335 with Sierra's 225 Gameking bullet.
2300 to 2353 fps averages with Speer 250 spitzers and H-BLC.

if you are considering wildcat cartridges there is the 338-284. with bullet weights up to 225-235 grains it has excellent ballistics, not quite a 338-06.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

The trajectory of 338 F, 358 Win, or 350 RM are adequate on large game to 300 yds or so depending on sight in range.

A friend opened his 6mm 600 bolt face to barrel to 350RM and used a sako extractor, loves it, says it clover leafs, or 1 hole's 3shot groups, but he likes big guns and can withstand more punishment than I care to take.

Either 358 or 338 should do a good job up to 300 yards.

Don't get hung up on trajectory to those distances. Hold on the backline and you never would shoot under vitals with a 200 zero out to 300 or slightly more.

sorry, one more point, I have not heard of any OAL issues but it IS plausible Sako made a deal with Federal as there short action is a tad longer than Rem and the factory Winchester as well-although I hear Winch can open up the mag box no problem.

Montana action is a choice and Ruger possibly. If the 338 Sako is the same as the older Sako shorts, than its OAL should be around 3.85 vs 3.75 in Rem.

If you reload, it won't matter. I did hear that the brass might be a tad longer than a std 338-08 and if so, factory ammo may not chamber and I hear IS NOT recommended or possible in the old wildcat chambers, BUT that is a different issue than if the new 338 F factory load will FIT a short Rem action.

A quick call/letter to Federal or Saami might answer your question as to OAL.

Hope that helps.

If you are building, why not consider something based on the 284 case if you want to use a short action. My stepfather has a 25-284 that is built on a remington 600, to be a backpacking rifle. It is incredibly light, 5 pounds 7 ounces fully loaded. It wasn't a cheap build but it realistically matches 25-06 balistics in the short action.

I wouldn't build something on the 284 case, I would build a straight 284win. Wincbester has good brass out now. The 308 with good 165 to 180 grain bullets would work well for anything in the lower 48. The 6.5 rem mag is good as well. Your average 140gr 6.5 bullet has incredible sectional density and penetrates really well. Scandinavian moose hunters have used the 6.5 swede for a lot of years with excellent success. The 338-08 or 358 win are good cartridges. Both are pretty close the 348 Winchester in performance, but you can use spitzers with'em.

I just got a sample round of factory ammo today and it measures 2.778". That fits in my Browning ABolt short action & Savage 10FP. I don't have any other short actions besides .223's but that OAL is right at what the .308 is speced at so I don't see why it wouldn't fit in any action that the .308 fits into.

It won't replace my .338-06 but I'll end up building one I'm sure.

quote:

Anybody able to get 2500 fps out of the .358 with 225-grain bullets?

Doesn't matter much if you do or don't. Whatever velocity the .358 generates with a given weight bullet will not be matched by the .338-08, er, .338 Federal. Not without higher pressures.

I see no reason for the cartridge to exist.

The reason for not recomending a short action may have to do with the fact that not all .338 cal. bullets will work out for you because of their long noses. When the .338 ultra mag was introduced it was shortened for the reason that when certain .338 bulet profiles were seated they were too long. The .325 WSM was supposedly made because most .338 bullets had there bullets seated so deep for max oal that the leading edge of the bullets full diameter was seated below the case mouth. When I was fooling around with the idea of a mauser in 338-06 I had an action to play with first and when I tried dummy rounds in it they seemed to hang up on the front of the mag box because oal seated (to the cannelure) was just a bit (to me) long. That's why I did it in .340 Jaden witch is the same thing but a smidgen shorter (also with a body length closer to the 8mm it would not require any feed rail trimming)

I don't know for sure but this to me seems why they would use a short action and provide certain loads with profiles that accomodate the max oal, but not recomend a short action and have people complain about bullet seating problems. If you had one chambered, I'd have a very short throat cut to accomodate the short seated rounds. My advice is free...take it for what it's worth.

I am not sure why the 2.8" OAL is too much of a constraint. factory ammo will be sporting the shorter of the 338 bullet (180 AB, 185 XBT, and 210 NP). Should work our fine with the lighter bullets. Leave the heavier bullets and OAL for the handloaders to deal with. (We've been doing it for years with the 257 Roberts and 6mm... )

Here is the quote out of the March issue of Shooting Times:

"According to the Federal representatives I spoke with, overall cartridge length will be 2.860 inches. Because this is a bit longer than the 2.810 inches that is specified by SAAMI for the .308 Winchester, this may rule out its use in some of the short-action rifles made by other manufacturers. They also warn that the ammunition should not be fired in rifles chambered for the .338-308 wildcat."

It should be noted, however, that the ACTUAL OALs of factory rounds (according the chart with the article) are nowhere near 2.860. Nosler Partition, 210-grain loads, are 2.790. Unless I am mistaken, folks are shooting their .338-08s at 2.800.

Something here just does not compute! (Unless, of course, Federal is just trying to make sure it bears no liability for anyone who uses their ammo in one of the wildcat rifles, which they have no way of knowing was, or was not cut to specifications.)

It seems Remington warned about either 7-08 or 7BR ammo shot in 'wildcat guns' before the ctgs were saami spec'd. I believe many old xp-100 pistols in 7BR were 'opened up' to 7-08

From a logical standpoint, Federal stands little ammo sale loss to 338-08 wildcats as there cannot be many, but they do NOT want someone to stuff a 338F in a 308 or other smaller bore and blow up a rifle.

That makes sense. I bet the OAL of ammo is within short action spec ....2.75-2.800, but the neck and/or shoulder may be a bit longer to prevent its accidental chambering in a smaller bore 308 based chamber.

That is my guess, but Federal MIGHT be willing to answer as to what might be going on if it is nothing simpler than a 338 bullet loaded in a standard 308 case.

If it will not fit a Remington short action, then Federal has shot itself in the proverbial foot, IMHO. Who wants to shoot a round based on a .308 case in a standard-length action. Might as well go ahead and build a .338-06 and be done with it!

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:

quote:

Anybody able to get 2500 fps out of the .358 with 225-grain bullets?

Doesn't matter much if you do or don't. Whatever velocity the .358 generates with a given weight bullet will not be matched by the .338-08, er, .338 Federal. Not without higher pressures.

I see no reason for the cartridge to exist.

No reason for it to exist?

I have never seen a factory 358 win bolt action anywhere, ever.

If I find a bolt action 338 federal I may just buy it.

The idea that the .358 Winchester (or better yet, the .350 Rem. Mag., which equals the .35 Whelen!!) is a "short-range" cartridge is just plain wrong. The .358 shoots as flat as the .303 British, and no-one ever accused the .303 or .30/40 Krag of being "short range" cartridges!

There is no reason to think that the .338/'08 would be any more (or less!!) limited range-wise than the .358 or .350 Rem. Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
Sorry, I'm having to deal with what I got -- a Model 600 action.

Anybody able to get 2500 fps out of the .358 with 225-grain bullets?

Never tried, but I got 2450 out of the .358 Win. with Speer 250-grain spitzers. Took 51.5 grains of WW 748, which was 2.5 grains UNDER Ken Waters' max. load for that buller & powder....

Wow, that is DARNED near 350 RM territory!

I was wrong, saw that shooting times article today again and the picture of the loaded ammo is obscuring the 'TIPS' of the bullets as they are NOT cut off/shortened as they had appeared. The light or the different 'print quality' of the one I looked at today showed that so those Accubonds etc are all likely 'pointed' as they come in a box to reload.

none-the-less, the chart does show OAL at 2.80

To someone above, I really don't think this round has any probem going into any standard short action i.e. Remington.

No if we could get Remington or someone to make cheaper more affordable bullets in .338 with a suitable jacket in say 160-180gr, the extra speed would take you to 400 yards or so on a usable trajectory for deer.

Beyond deer, the 210 partition or 185 X should kill any animal on this continent with good shot placement within 300 yards.

Yes, so many other guns will do the same but I want more 'bang flops' and rather use this 'heavier ctg' at least on evening hunts. I really believe it like the 358 will distinctly offer more 'thumping power' in the field with some noticable difference of impact and post impact.

I really hate seeing anything go out of its tracks and its not 100% avoidable, but if fairly hit with a .338 or larger bore, I can rest easy that no matter what that bullet hit on or after impact (or even before i.e. brush-) it will have had enough bullet retention, penetration, and destruction inc. an exit wound unless it one got an unusually bad hit on some really heavy bone.

When you look at the 308 based rounds in that pic of ST magazine, you can see a big difference in the 338 and 358 bores vs the 30 and under.

Also, I read about the 400 wildcat on the 450 marlin and remember having seen the Realtree outdoor hunt where the guy using it knocked a whitetail down in its tracks, literally slammed him down w/little to no movement. Bang-flop.

That is what I would want evertime with any body shot if possible though I know it won't always happens, I seriously doubt a 100gr 24 bore would have slain that large buck the way the 235 gr .400 did.

My 338/06 worked that way for me also. I think the larger diameter bullets spread shock and energy over a geometrically larger area on impact, as far as the shock wave. Not unlike shooting a 22 in a body of water, then see the difference of say a 357 then 44 as to visible impact. Frontal diameter and momentum do matter.

Thanks El Dequello. 250's at 2450, what could stand that? Twice the speed that Elmer Keiths famous 44 mag handguns shoot, which means 4x the energy!

358's are no whimps, neither will the 338 Federal be.