All you have listed have fine reputations and will likely serve you nicely.

I've used Douglas almost exclusively. (some Shilen and MRC as well as Shaw)...that said I've never been disappointed with Douglas XX barrels.

If you going benchrest this may be a key decision. For a hunting rifle the difference may be more academic than functional.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
All you have listed have fine reputations and will likely serve you nicely.

I've used Douglas almost exclusively. (some Shilen and MRC as well as Shaw)...that said I've never been disappointed with Douglas XX barrels.

If you going benchrest this may be a key decision. For a hunting rifle the difference may be more academic than functional.

Vapo is right on! Ditto for me. I've used
Douglas, Shilen, and Pac-Nor. I couldn't
tell the difference and have never had a bad barrel.

All were hunting rifles. For benchrest I might go Krieger.

quote:

I've never been disappointed with Douglas XX barrels.

I have, twice. I've ranted and raved abot these two barrels in previous threads. Both were CM. One was a 6.5mm with an 8" twist, the other a 7mm with 10" twist. I put two Tubb's kits through the 6.5mm barrel and it STILL fouled worse than most facotry barrels. I have plenty of other DOuglas barrels that are very fine shooters and clean up pretty well, so I know they can make great barrels, but after getting two bad ones, I am DONE with Douglas...

Besides, you can get a factory lapped CM barrel from pac-nor for roughy the same price as a CM Douglas (which are unlapped). $165 (contoured and unpolished) is about the best barrel value out there right as far as I am concerned.

However, if you think your hunting rifle needs a $300ish barrel, then take a look at Lilja, Hart (SS only), or Krieger (cut rifled).

Shilen CM are not lapped, but their SS are. I have had mixed results with Shilen CM.

Shaw makes a functional hunting barrel (especially the more recent ones since they re-tooled), but I'd honor your pre-64 action with a pac-nor quality barrel or better...

I am just not convinced that an extra $150 for a Krieger et al. is worth it for a HUNTING rifle. I'd rather take that extra $150 and send the barrel and action to a highly reputed smith - probably a much better way to spend the extra $.

I have four diff. PacNor bbl. & have nothing but good things to say about them. My gunsmith used to recommend Douglas to his customers. After using PacNor for one of my rifles he has now switched to them & recommends them exclusively. Finish inside & out is just that much better. I'm sure Hart, Lilja, etc. are a bit better, after all they are used by a lot of BR guys, but for a hunting rifle, I have no qualms.

I've had 4 Douglas tubes, I personally would choose to get another one.

I had one in 416 Taylor and sold it b4 I could get enough rounds thru it to see how it lasted.

I also had a 25/06 and 2 7 Mashburn Supers.

Here is how they went. Quite rough for the first 125-150 rounds and then they settled in and shot well.

All three of them went to Croak City Wyoming b4 I got to the 1000 round mark.

Personally for me this is the criteria that I use for tubes.

*break in quickly

*clean up well

*accurate from the get go to the froggy end

*have some staying power and less than 1K rounds does not cut it for me.

I've some friends that love them, none of these fellas are shooters. By shooters I mean the types that will run 500 to 1K rounds a year down the tube.

Personally I believe that if people shot them more they would find out that there are other tubes out there that will do them better.

They will however work just fine for the casual shooters and we all know that there is a lot more of them out there than hard cores.

Plus, not many folks will admit to being a casual shooter. No offense meant it is just the way that it is.

Lastly when I look for advice on tubes I look for people that have shot them from different companies and are putting enough rounds thru them to wear a few out.

I will not take advice from those that are not wearing out tubes on a consistent basis.

Just my 2 cents

Mark D

My 3 fav are by far

*Schneider
*Krieger
*Lilja

I don't own a rifle with a Lilja because I have not been able to afford one.

But I'd really like to.

I have never heard of a Lilja barrel that wouldn't shoot
superbly.

AllanD

Allan-curious what barrels do you own and have you worked with?

Thx

Mark D

577,

That little guy is growing up quick...heck I remember seeing pics when he was just a toddler...was that just last week

He sure has a heck of a Dad .... how are you going to stock it to fit him

Must be really neat to work on a project like that...surely a labor of love!!!!

Best regards,

jjs

Krieger or lilja,the rest are so close in price,you might as well go with the best.

You'd have to go a long ways to burn up a 30/06 barrel,so really investing in a quality barrel is very inexspensive over the long haul.

I've got a krieger in 30/06 right now that has over 4000 rds through it and is still able to shoot slightly under an inch at 100.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
Allan-curious what barrels do you own and have you worked with?

Thx

Mark D

Mark,

I'm curious why you insist on asking questions with an obvious "tone"?

Nothing spectacular...
I've had a Remington 700 30-06 with a Hart barrel and a 270 with a Shilen. both shot very well, but to be honest I've had factory rifles that with choice loads shot as well.

Financial circumstances over the years have caused me to part with some items (because they were saleable at a time when I needed cash) and a couple have been stolen, but...

My next toy that'll be picking up in three weeks is a Remington in 7mm Mag that has what is probably a Douglas barrel on it.
(I'm waiting for the gunsmit who built it to look it up in his records to tell what it was built with)

Frankly, I've never found factory barrels to
be as awful as many like to claim and some of the best shooting rifles I've had have been remingtons with hammer forged tubes.

But building a custom rifle on a pre-64...

I like the idea of a PacNor Polygon rifled barrel. but what I'd really like to try is a Lilja to see if his barrels are as good as everyone says they are.

Mark, I don't need to be a previous owner of a Ferrari to know I that I'd like to have one, or know that I can't afford one.

Do I need to have been a previous owner of
SEVERAL Swarovski scopes to know that they are better than a Tasco or Simmons?

Your questions carry an implied tone that I frankly find offensive, I'll give you the benifit of doubt that it's unintentional
but all your questions seem to be confrontational and I'm not the only one who has made this observation.

If you step back you quickly realize that many here are frustrated people who if not building Rifles would build their cars to (and probably beyond) NASA specifications even if the car was only going to be used to run back and forth to the 7-11 for a Slurpee...

To many here the idea of "diminishing returns"
is an alien concept.

either that or they suffer from a syndrome that I will name right here as "Dakota envy"

I really want to know what makes a Dakota rifle worth the cost of a Remington 700 Rifle
PLUS a Leupold Scope PLUS the cost of a week for two in Cabo San Lucas
(Or if you prefer, the cost of a New Remington 700 w/Scope AND a Cow Elk hunt and enough left over for a CASE of Single Malt)

In any event the question asked was what barrel maker and why Lilja and PacNor are tied
And my original reason is as good as any other....

I've never owned a Shaw barrel but I've heard "Stories" about them some good, some bad.
several here in these forums...
So I'm not sure I'd be willing to try one....



AllanD

krieger is the stuff for me and have used all of your list excepting lilja just never had anybody want one badger is a close second to krieger for my money.

I'm waiting on a Shilen Select Match Grade 30 barrel to rebarrel my Model 70 30-06 and have used many Shilen barrels on my bench guns. I look at the match reports from all over the country and Shilen is always at the top of the pack. Famous shooter Tony Boyer has a reputation of using Shilen barrels and I believe in Tony!

Hey Allan D-sorry if you don't like my tone, but I am just asking you some fairly simple questions.

One Q I asked is what kinds of tubes do you have experience with. No tone here just trying to see what you've worked with is all.

Over on the small bores there is a thread going where you spoke quite a bit about the 25/06. So, I simply asked you about your experiences with it. Never heard back from you by the way.
So when you get a second please go over there and tell us about the game you taken with the 25/06 using the 100's and the 120's. I've used the 25/06 quite a bit and you're fairly biased about the 100's so I am just wanting to hear about your experiences is all.

And over in the mid bores there was a thread started by Frank N about elk rifles to 500 yards. You wrote a lot about it and so I merely asked about your experiences at that range. In fact I believe I asked you 2x to tell us about your experiences in hunting and taking elk at 500 yards.

So sorry if you didn't like the tone, you have lots to say on those subjects and so I just wanted to here about your experiences. Thats it in a nut shell.

Not sure why you wouldn't be willing to expound on those threads about your experiences when you're quite comfy in talking about them at length anyway.


Thx for your time

Mark D

Interesting, a man makes a post about putting together a gun for his son...and a couple of you guys decide to play out some sort of game here...

Why don't you guys just PM each other....instead of bringing your "questions" about each other on this thread...

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
Hey Allan D-sorry if you don't like my tone, but I am just asking you some fairly simple questions.

One Q I asked is what kinds of tubes do you have experience with. No tone here just trying to see what you've worked with is all.

Over on the small bores there is a thread going where you spoke quite a bit about the 25/06. So, I simply asked you about your experiences with it. Never heard back from you by the way.
So when you get a second please go over there and tell us about the game you taken with the 25/06 using the 100's and the 120's. I've used the 25/06 quite a bit and you're fairly biased about the 100's so I am just wanting to hear about your experiences is all.

And over in the mid bores there was a thread started by Frank N about elk rifles to 500 yards. You wrote a lot about it and so I merely asked about your experiences at that range. In fact I believe I asked you 2x to tell us about your experiences in hunting and taking elk at 500 yards.

So sorry if you didn't like the tone, you have lots to say on those subjects and so I just wanted to here about your experiences. Thats it in a nut shell.

Not sure why you wouldn't be willing to expound on those threads about your experiences when you're quite comfy in talking about them at length anyway.


Thx for your time

Mark D

I have replied, not directly to you in each case, but I reliped and mentioned your questions.

Particularly in the 25-06 thread, go back and check mabey try using the refersh button in your browser, because I replied to that earlier.

Go back and check.

Mark, Simply put my issue with your questions is that they all ask "What experience do you have" and insist on a a dedicated reply to YOUR question, instead of simply reading the subjects.

you admitted you were too tired and lazy to read the whole thread. I say go back and read the thread, your answers lie there in.
Then you ask a challenging question without adding anything youself.

How about telling what YOUR experience is with a 25-06?

This is supposed to be a friendly group and I'm just naturally chatty, but I'm not some teenage wannabe who is simply making stuff up.
My opinion may differe from some, but I find there are those that share opinions on some things.... and it is those people I am here to meet, not someone who is going to question everything I say.

Mabey you don't intend your questions to be
taken as a challenge, if not find a different way to phrase questions, tone it down a couple of notches.... because right now you seem like a bit "anal retentive" mabey I'm wrong, mabey I'm just taking you wrong, it wouldn't be the first time... but the way you are going...


Now, on the discussion on Mid-bores I was pointing out doccumentable ballistic reality while several people where spouting nonsense
about the bigger bullets AT THE SAME DOWNRANGE VELOCITY "drifting less"... like the 1/2"-3/4" difference is detectable let alone provable outside of a ballistics lab, because it isn't.

and there is a technical term for anyone who claims otherwise: Liar.

In Other Words I was simply tactfully calling "bullshit".

And you were asking the wrong questions
about "experience" shooting elk at 500yards.
I doubt you could fill a minivan with all the people who have shot more than two of any game animal at that range.
and anyone who claims to do it routinely
(regardless of if they actually do it or not)
is demonstrating poor sportmanship if not something far worse.

Happy?

Sorry for doing this here.

AllanD

So, Allan just answer 2 quick questions then.
You can either answer them here, or go over to those threads and answer them there. Either way I don't care but would like to hear.

Have you hunted elk, and if so how many elk have you taken at 500 yds?

Second one is simply how much game have you taken with the 25/06 using both the 100 and the 120's. You talked a pretty good game about the 100's being so much better and I would just like to hear of your reasons why and your experiences that would back those thoughts up.

Pretty simple really if you have the experience to go behind all your chat and theory's I'd love to hear them.

Thats it pretty simple, I just want to hear your experience. You're not answering would kind of tell me that you've not got the experience, and you're more of a book worm than a actual been out there and done it kind of fella.

That's it just answer the questions either here or go over to the other threads and answer them there.

If you've no experience then that is fine and say so, if you have experience with what you're talking about then simply say what it is.

If you don't answer I'll pretty much know the answer.

Thanks for your time

Mark D

Mark,

Are you educated as a journalist?

I'll notice that you haven't answered any of my questions.

I don't hunt Elk, never could afford it, still can't, are you offering to finance my "education"?

you know damned well that discussion wasn't really about shooting elk or people's experience at doing it, it
quickly because an arguement between "Ultra MAG"
people who seem to surface every time a caliber discussion comes up and their general mindset is that on Elk anything lighter than a 160gr 7mm or a 200gr 30caliber bullet bounces off...

And I was (rightly) pointing out that at 500yards a 140gr
bullet launched at max vel from a 7mmMag is moving slightly faster at 500yards than a 160gr bullet from a 7mm Ultramag.

and since people have reported shooting the Nosler 140gr
partition from 7x57, 7mm-08 and 280Rem at the same IMPACT velocity (obviously ay closer ranges) you can make some very solid suppositions about what'll happen if you hit the elk at that range.
And if there is anyone who claims that any "ultramag" is easy or pleasant to shoot? again, you have met a liar.

Many people IN THE REAL WORLD buy 308's because they can't handle the recoil of a 30-06 (let alone a 300WinMag
or a 300 Ultramag) so suggesting an ultramag is... questionable (if not assinine) without asking the person some serious questions first... I.E. what other rifles do you have what calibers, etc....

I was arguing against inherent contradictions in the statements of those who do (or claim to)
Particularly statements about bullet drop and wind drift
and that my smarmy friend is mathmatics, not experience.
One thing I've noticed about numbers is that unlike opinions
they aren't influenced by self-dilusion.

IF you KNOW a bullet with a known CD (if the MFG isn't lying to you) leaves the barrel at a certain speed that in still air it'll drop and drift a predictable ammount.

If you don't know what contradictions you aren't as smart as you seem to think you are.

I'd ask about your qualifications but frankly I don't give a shit.

I've done twice (or more) as much as I talk about
and wish I'd had time to do more than I have.
If that basic description doesn't describe someone they are probably not trying hard enough.

Am I a "bookworm" I suppose I am in a way because I do read a lot and retain most of what I read.
but I'm not some pencil necked geek like I strongly suspect you are despite your claim to be from Montana.
Again, I could be wrong...

But I do know who first discovered that air resistance
to a bullet's flight was more than 100 times
the effect gravity on the bullet. (atleast the bullets he
had available for his tests) I believe he also invented the ballistic pendulem...
Yeah, that and 85 cents will get me a cup of coffee at most gas stations....

When I answer a post from someone asking about load data I type it from memory, but then check it against the ublished manual before presing send because memory is
fallable.

I Haven't shot anything with 120's in a 25-06, there is no need. If animals drop at the shot and the bullets exit.
what else exactly is there that they are supposed to do?

Am I supposed to keep researching things after I've found something that works? that is the act of someone who I (and many others) would descrbe as compulsive....

Oh, and BTW, I'll freely admit that shooting 20 or 50 animals isn't stastically anymore significant that my sampling of four.

Was I supposed to shoot ALL my deer over a 20year period with that one rifle just to satisfy your demands of "experience"?

What criterial for clean kill does the 100gr 25cal
bullet fail to meet that I would have needed
to "upgrade" to the 120gr bullets?

I shoot, deer fall down go thud... what else is there?

for the last 10 years or so the only rifle I actually carry hunting is my 30-06 and I load that for deer with 165gr ballistic tips. I haven't recovered one of those yet either.
It's not that I don't have other rifles, but that's the one I'm most comfortable with.

And while I'll still stick to "groups ain't everything"
I'll admit that loose ones aren't exactly confidence
inspiring.

AND as I've said repeatedly I didn't buy a 25-06 to duplicate the performance of a 270Winchester, which with 120's is all it can do. so I wasn't terribly motivated to try and find a "happy" load with a 117/120gr bullet.

Is the distinction between a 100 and a 120 real
or philosophical? I could ask the same question about many other bullet weights in various calibers and cartridge choices, you gonna pounce on people who argue those too?

BTW, in the post where you were calling for people's elk experience?
the answers you got were anecdotal at best
And if there's anyone out there who's shot 20 elk at 500yards plus I want my picture taken shaking their hand, be sure the big "S" on their chest is in focus and their cape isn't blowing around too much....

If you don't see a glaring contradiction between "elk are tough to kill" out one side of their mouth and "I've shot elk past 500yards" then you aren't being very attentive.....

consider: What if the wind is blowing faster than your estimation and you gut shoot the elk, now you have to make a 500plus yard shot on a MOVING target...
make that shot...

Or the elk takes a step between when the trigger breaks and the bullet arrives did you know that a 180gr partition out of a 300RUM with an MV of 3300fps takes around 0.60 to get to 500yards? even a stationary animal can move a suprising distance if given a fat half-second.... ...and suddenly your perfect lung shot is a gut shot.

there is simply way too much to go wrong to take such a shot and keep a clean concience...
a pity someone isn't there to beat the snot out of the asshole that would do something like that, much less do it more than once and then compound the sin by talking about it!

Yes, a experienced varmint shooter who is a superb marksman can cleanly hit an elk at that distance, but to those out there that can PLEASE don't talk about it, because it gives slob hunters the mistaken belief that they can do it too....

Thanks Allan I appreciate your getting to the question.

Nope you have not hunted elk, now that wasn't that tough was it.

And nope you've not taken any deer/lopes with a 120 out of a 25/06, but you seem to feel rather strongly that the 100 is superior. Yep that makes sense to me. And lastly 4 deer with one round does not prove much IMO. It takes a lot more than 4 and if you're gonna make statements about how much better the 100 is than the 120. In the future you may want to actually shoot some with the 120 so that you can back up what you peddle.

Just a thought.

By the way when I said bookworm all I meant is that you are well read, but a bit short of actual time in doing. Meaning you can spout ballistic minutia and other things but don't have the time in the field to really back it.

Thats all, thanks for your time.

Mark D

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dobrenski:
Thanks Allan I appreciate your getting to the question.

Nope you have not hunted elk, now that wasn't that tough was it.

And nope you've not taken any deer/lopes with a 120 out of a 25/06, but you seem to feel rather strongly that the 100 is superior. Yep that makes sense to me. And lastly 4 deer with one round does not prove much IMO. It takes a lot more than 4 and if you're gonna make statements about how much better the 100 is than the 120. In the future you may want to actually shoot some with the 120 so that you can back up what you peddle.

Just a thought.

By the way when I said bookworm all I meant is that you are well read, but a bit short of actual time in doing. Meaning you can spout ballistic minutia and other things but don't have the time in the field to really back it.

Thats all, thanks for your time.

Mark D

Mark,

I've probably shot more deer in the last 24 years than you have, How many is that?
I haven't the foggiest clue, if not 100 close to it. and as I've said most of it is "killing"
rather than "hunting"

are you thinking somehow that the four with the 25-06 are the only four deer I've shot?
If so you are more of an ass than I thought.

No time in the field pfffft.... go back to shagging sheep montana boy.

My original decisions were based on the book stuff, but I've yet to find anything wrong in my original decisions when tested in the field.

I did do my learning in the books, and I also know that when you carefully set up an expirement and it turns out EXACTLY like you expected you learn nothing about the nature of the expirement you do learn to have confidence in your own thought processes.

but let me also point out that any idiot can learn from their own mistakes, intelligence is learning from the mistakes of others.

that's why written language was invented.
but accrording to you books don't rate..
but if you pay attention while reading you can save yourself much grief in NOT learning everything the hard way.

You make judgements of my experience? Please!
just who exactly do you think you are?

Or is it that I'm more literate than the average? fewer typo's, bigger words, etc...

If I were a fisherman and this a fishing forum you'd be asking how many fish of a specific species I caught and you'd probably argue my choice of hook size...

I've got lots of time at the moment as there is a lull in buisness (temporary, it happens)
but I am a born tinkerer and loading and shooting for it's own sake is fun.

Go back through my post and Answer MY questions
and explain to me where my judgement is flawed in regards to the 25-06 and 100grain bullets.

No, I didn't gather a lot of data as I spent two barrels killing woodchucks and soda cans.
then didn't have the money to buy another 25-06.

you might try actually DISCUSSING things rather than being insulting and dismissive.

the question of the moment is:
What exactly is the 120gr partition supposed to do that the 100gr didn't already do?

Yeah, I'd have probably killed more deer with my 25-06, but I also had a 270 and a 30-06,
a 264Win, a 6.5x55(which I still have)
and a 45-70... etc...And I've probably shot 50 or so with my last 223
Shooting crop dammaging deer is a "Target Rich"
envrionment....

And I get lots of trigger time because unlike when I ran an import repair shop in NJ I'm not working 80hour weeks. I work out of my garage rebuliding transmissions and that doesn't occupy my full time.

and oddly I spend a great deal of time in apple orchards.....

I also live on Gun Club Road and it's named appropriately.

My Laziness isn't in dealing with people like yours seems to be.

My laziness is in driving my truck the 200 yards up the hill to the firing line instead of simply walking up there.
or driving my pickup to my one of my observation points in the orchard.
It's nice to have a cooler of gatoraid
snacks close by.

No, I've never been much good at ambushing trophy bucks, but I find antlers are hard to chew, so I've given several "nice" deer a pass and shot the doe standing near them, let someone else be thrilled with the "nice rack"

My interest in a "Nice rack" is attached to a certain redheaded female.

Are you next going to berate me the next time I suggest that with a 6.5x55swede on deer you are better off with 125gr partitions than with 140's? (provided you can get them to group in a long throat rifle) because I'm quite prepared to type several thousand words on that subject.

Or my saying that loading bullets heavier than 165's in a 30-06 is a waste? Knock yourself out skippy, b

How many different rifles do you use?
Do you own multiple rifles in each caliber?

The only things I have more than one of are 12Ga shotguns and 30-06's and atleast there I have a semi-auto and a bolt gun...so they are "different"

Wasn't this about barrels for a 30-06?

I would put a Winchester barrel on a pre 64 M70. The Featherweight version is my favorite as the Standard weight is too heavy to my taste.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Wasn't this about barrels for a 30-06?

It was but Mark decided that personal attacks in several forum topics in which I was a participant was "appropriate"....

Mark seems to think that attacking my experience is appropriate, but he hasn't actually challenged what I've said on a factual basis. Nor has he responded to any of my questions on technical points.

Funny thing is if you read back through the topics we have both participated in it seems we agree ~98% of the time....

I have concluded that Mark has "issues".

If I have ever done anything to him it must have been in a previous life... ....but then again I don't believe in re-incarnation.

Like I said above I'd like a Lilja barrel because of his reputation.

Second choice after some rethinking is a Hart
as they are practically "local"

Many people skip over Hart and go to Shilen or Douglas because if you want a CrMo barrel you are buying it someone other than Hart, because last I checked Hart only makes stainless steel barrels.


AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
I would put a Winchester barrel on a pre 64 M70.

I was about to make the same suggestion. My pre-War 30-06 is sub-MOA with factory ammo.

577Nitro,

It may not be what you're looking for, but I'm taking the barrel off of a pre-64 Model 70 30-06 that puts 3 shots of 180 grn Failsafes into one ragged hole at 100 yds. I always told myself I'd never touch the gun, but I need the action to replace one that was buggered up by a former gunbuilder now housebuilder who thought he was building me a rifle. You can have the barrel for $50 if you want it.

Krieger generally regarded as outstanding barrels for both accuracy and long life. Most long range rifle shooters around the globe will often be seen using Krieger barrels. Several brands as you listed are good barrels, but Krieger barrels do indeed shoot very well. Cut rifled, burnished bores, quick and easy break in-shoot it. Of late, cost of all barrels seem to be on equal footing for quality barrels, so cost probably not a factor in decision making.
Krieger deliveries are sometimes extended and especially now, for many getting ready for long range match season and demand is high. Just a suggestion.

braindo:

I think 577 may be on vacation...not sure..but $50 seems like a very good deal..

Can you provide info about the condition? How many rounds (est.) through the barrel, is bluing good? sights still on it? how about length?...can you take some pics, so 577 can look at them?

The reason I ask, if 577 wants it, I would like to give it as a gift for his son....hopefully you can wait until he shows up here...

Thank you, jjs

I have 3 Pac-Nors, 1 hart, 1 Lija and a Lothar Walther. Flip a coin, all shoot all are super smooth. I have heard nothing but good about Krieger. Hart is probably #2 with the Bechrest crowd behind Shilen as far as numbers on the line. They are all about $50 apart. Pac-Nor has customer service 2nd to none, Lilja was wonderful also. Any of the barrels listed put on right will most likely shoot beyond expectations.

Hey guys, first off sorry for parts of this thread getting highjacked by a question I asked of Allen.

He didn't like my tone, and I didn't like the fact that he just wouldn't answer a direct question. And it just kind of got off and to the races from there.

And lastly to Allen just one or two last things and I will gladly move on. You'll not hear from me on this again.

First off, I asked you a fairly easy question, you didn't like my tone and it got to running from there. Honestly all you had to do was answer the question with a straight forward answer. Not a tough task I'd add. You're sure not bashful about being wordy else wise. So, I am not so sure of why you were being so bashful about my questions.

Actually I asked you a quesiton about the 25/06 and about the elk. Both times you went round and round without answering my question. I pretty much guessed that you didn't have the actual experience with elk hunting and with using a 120/25-06 load and that is why you wouldn't answer the question.

And yet you had no problem going on and on about the virues of the 100 over the 120 and from what I can tell you've never used the 120 and your total experience with the 100's is a total of 4 critters.

You also went on and on over on the elk thread and come to find out the one who pretty talked the most had never even hunted elk!

What was that my Grandma said about the empty wagon rattling the loudest?

So issues you say, I would guess you have them as well.

As far as issues goes I have no problem with folk saying I've no experience with this or that but this is what I would feel about it.

But in mind if a fella goes on and on about something in the manner you did then you should have some actual experience to back it up. Not just what comes down to what you've read.

So if I ask about your experience I just want to hear what you've done. Not what you can quote out of a book. Just simply what have you done.

I asked you about your experience with the 25/06 and 120's and you would not answer.

I asked you about your experience with elk and taking them at long range, and you would not answer.

As it just turns out that you had/have no experience with either.

And that bubba is the only issue I have with you. Just answer the darn question it is not rocket science there bubba.

I want to hear what you've done to back up your thoughts. I don't want to to hear what you think or what you've read. Just what you've done is all.

Once again my apologies to all for taking this thread on tubes a total different direction. I was just trying to get a fella to answer a question is all. And no I don't give up easily,obviously if that is having issues thewn so be it. I just like a man to be able to back up what he says with experience.

Lastly Allen, for what it is worth I do feel that there is more than a couple of things that we share the similar thoughts on. And I do think that if we were sharing a campfire that the conversation would go a lot easier.

Thanks for your time and make it your best day!

Mark D

577-
My vote went to "other", as in Kreiger. End of story & no other consideration here. If you're having a rifle built for your son, why not spend the money & put one of the best barrels on the market on it. I'd guess that he'll keep & use it for the rest of his life. Put a top of the line tube on it from the git go.
I confess I only have 1 after market barrel & it's on a rebuilt Ruger & is chambered for .257 Imp. but that puppy shoots bug holes with a 75 gr. V-max. I do have to work with it more using heavier bullets but....
Now, for Mark & Allen -
Children, stop your bickering and shake hands or you're gonna sit in the corner until you can stop fighting & arguing.
Bear in Fairbanks

MArk,

You were repeatedly asking a question that had already been answered.

I had in one of those strings answered your question THREE TIMES, but you were too lazy (by your own admission) to read it.

frankly your being too busy to take the time to read the answers to your own questions in a public forum because the answers weren't specifically adressed to you?
what excuse do you have for that?

So I refused to humor a snipe (you) and the snipe grew more obnoxious. (sadly that IS what snipes do) it appears to me (and atleast two other people) that your only goal was that you wanted to insult me in public.

I understand that when a dog pisses on a fireplug it isn't vandalism, it's just a dog being a dog, but that doesn't mean that I want to stand between the fireplug and any dog that comes along in dry-clean-only wool pants.

My comments in the long range elk hunting thread had NOTHING to do with elk hunting experience but with physical reality involving ballistics.
Yet you chose to question IRRELEVANT experience
or "character" instead of discussing the facts being debated.

And on another note I still don't believe (regardless of contrary statements) that an unalerted elk at any yardage is harder to kill than an irate (extreemly pissed off) breeding bull cow that weighs as much as any two bull elk.
I think the "hard to kill" elk were't hit as well as people claim.

The "well hit" deer/elk that runs 200yards isn't a deer, it's a unicorn in disguise.

I believe you chose not to question my factual statments because in terms of ballistic reality my comments in that thread were factually unassailable, mabey I didn't phrase everything perfectly, but....

In the 25-06 thread several other people commented that they used the same loads as I did and chose them for EXACTLY the same reasons yet again you question my experience with the round rather than discussing the merits of what several people agreed with me on....
Did you question THEIR experience? Or were you just trying (and succeding) to be a pest to me?

Are you the official forum Resume'/Experiance police?
If so I missed the announcement.....

You still have not answered a direct question I have repeated to you several times.
If the animal dies when shot ONCE and no tracking is required what else is needed that a heavier bullet might fix?

Hypothetical #1:
If I say that the 100grain partition loaded to max that groups well from someone's custom springfield in 257Rob-AI
will kill deer just as well as a 25-06 firing the exact
same bullet 100fps faster are you going to start your
"Erkel" (sp?) routine and ask what experience I have shooting the 257Roberts-AI at deer?

Hypothetical #2:
If I start talking about the 300WSM or the 300SAUM with different bullets am I going to get an arguement from you, while you ignore the fact that either cartridge is IDENTICAL
in real world performance to a handloaded 30-06
with which I have shot atleast 20 deer?

Because you arguing with me over either of those is EXACTLY the expectation I have of your behavior, because that is EXACTLY what you were doing! and you've probably given that same impression to several others as well.

(To be blunt the only reason I can remember that I shot four deer with my 25-06 is that they were four of the first seven deer I ever shot. And I LONG AGO stopped trying to count does...) I could EASILY have shot twice as many as the 100 I claim.

counting them is counting squirrels I've killed
How many squirrels have I killed?and as for your comming onto this thread to ask about my experience with aftermarket barrels? That is simply harrassment.

Tell you what Mark, if your face ever catches on fire you give me a call and I'll rush right over and try to stamp out the fire with an icepick.... until then stop trying to justify something that can only be appologized for.

Oh and BTW to put this back on topic.... I'd love to try a PacNor Polygon rifled barrel on my 30-06, but I already bought a new barrel for my '06.


AllanD

jjs,

I bought the gun 8 or so years ago and was planning on using the action for a project. I used the gun elk hunting as a back up rifle a few years ago and fired it for the first time then. That's when I learned how accurate it was and decided not to touch it. Now I need the action. It's a standard barrel from a 1950's gun. Let me know if you need the stock too. I'll take pictures later today.

Which barrel for a hunting rifle?

For a hunting rifle? Lothar Walther. Hand lapped and smooth as glass inside. Also priced very competitively for what you get.

I have one on a Swede and love it!

braindo:

Thanks! I can't speak for 577 but sent him a PM about your barrel...not sure what his plans are for a stock but very nice of you to offer.

Look forward to seeing the pics!

Thanks again,

I don't know if Allan or Mark would agree but an AB Barrel would be just fine for a hunting rifle. We are not talking sniper quality for a newbe hunter. Forget the trendy sophistication . go straight to to the solution. roger

So Allan, have you ever killed an elk?

I understand icepicks have a phenomenal SD and BC even if they're only 100 grains!

I voted Other. I would choose a Half Moon Barrel. Why. Becasue Tom Burgess says they are damn good barrels. Thats good enough for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
So Allan, have you ever killed an elk?

I understand icepicks have a phenomenal SD and BC even if they're only 100 grains!

Very funny Brad.

Yeah, Icepicks penetrate extrordinarily well even at very low velocity. but as I'm sure you already know they aren't really good at putting out facial conflagrations... LOL

they also tend to "pencil through" so aren't much good on game, though non-expanding monolithic metal is good for varmints.

But I do think they are heavier than 100grains.

My icepick is not a .257 though, it's a 7mm.


AllanD

577-I vote for Krieger (or another cut rifled barrel).

Once you pick your maker, then you have to pick a twist

Brianbo-I have 3 pre 64 '06's for that reason...they shoot so damn good! I would buy a semi-beater for it's action, but shoot it first because I could not resist; bugholes. Then again, and again. Finally found a truley shot-out 264 for my project. The '06's; I practice with them (mostly cast lead).

If its not too late for another opinion, I've done three rifles with montana rifle barrels - a 25-06, 30-06 and a 416 taylor. Good value in a pre-lapped barrel. Very little fouling. No breakin needed.