Went to local gunshop to pick up some more bullets, and caught myself looking and admiring, a new Rem. Sendero 7 UM. Nice rifle, Ive owned one in 300 UM.
I thought to myself, "Why do we need anougher 7mm. magnum rifle??"
Firstly, I am a fan of the Rem. 7 mag. so dont crack on me for downing your favorite caliber!!
But, what does the 7 UM, 7 STW, 7 short mag. offer that the .30 cal. magnums cant deliver??
The 7 mag. has filled a void in the hunting market but, why the "others"???
Educate this .30 cal. junkie....sakofan..
This post is mainly for 7mm, (fill in the blank) mag. users. What edge do you feel the "others" give you???

[ 07-26-2003, 04:02: Message edited by: sakofan ]

I think most guys buy the "ultra" 7mags for their downrange perf. w/ acceptable recoil. I have a 7mm Dakota on a #1, w/ 160-175gr bullets it is extremely flat shooting & carrys the energy down range w/ not much more recoil than a 06 (to me anyway).

Most magnums, especially those less than or equal to 308 bore, are superfluous. They're just the mudders and lift kits of the rifle world.

The 7mm mags are at the limit of recoil that many people can tolerate without effecting their accuracy.

I "heard", that the 7 UM kicks like hell...Thanks for the replys...lift kits and mudders, interesting...sakofan..

Little as it may be, the 7mm rounds offer a bit more energy down range due to thier SD advantage over the .30's and they shoot a little flatter. It's not enough to justify buying the rifle IMO, but you ask and there it is. Of course the .30 makes a bigger hole and with the heavier bullets, the .30 can over come the down range energy issue (at the expense of trajectory.)
I'm not tring to talk you into the gun, I'm a .30 man myself
Terry

I am not remotely interested in a 7mm. SUPER MAG...a Rem 7mm.mag. ..yes.
I was wondering why or what others felt was an advantage to the 7mm mag super highway...
Iam hard pressed to believe that a 7mm. RUM shoots flatter than my old .300 RUM.....
If that is true, they shoot flatter, then why dont more serious bench shooters use them...or do they???
I was led to believe that the 7mm. super mags, were designed for hunting primarily....sakofan..

I maybe mistaken, but I believe in the 70's there were some 7mag benchrest guy's out there. If I remember right the 7mag held a few 1000yd records for a while. I'm not into competitive shooting, but I think that's what I'd read in an artical about the subject years ago.
What amazes me is the accuracy of the UM rounds. You'd think blasting all that powder down the barrel, the rounds would be erratic at best. I owned a Sendaro SF in .300UM that was extremly accurate, MOA and better if I did my part. The rifle was fierce off the bench, It was probably shooting even better, I just couldn't hang on. I sold the rifle to my brother. He's never paid me for so I guess I still own one
Terry

As the owner of a 7mm ultramag and someone that actually fires one on a regular basis I am of the opinion that it surely does not kick like hell.To me it feels about the same as a 300win mag.I also have two 300ultra mags and while the recoil is noticeably more I still have no problems shooting 1/2" groups with them.

I have a couple of 7mm rem mags and the recoil is
not so much that I flinch or jerk the shots. Most
of my handloads were worked up for accuracy and
smooth recoil and not velocity. I hunt mostly in
Texas for deer, hogs and varmints and the 7 rem mag is versatile enough to load for any of those
game animals. If I were hunting up in elk, moose
and bear country I would probably carry a .338 or
.300 win mag but I've heard of all kinds of big
game taken with the 7mm rem mag as well. The ULTRA
MAGs just seem like more kick and less range time
to me. I have nothing against the .30 calibers and
I hope to own some in the future! Just my .02 worth. BLR7

The 7m/m is the best magnum going(under .30cal) They share a common virtue -a plethora of bullets. The calibre is so good in fact, the only bad thing one can honestly say is -it's boring.

stubblejumper..."The 7mm mags are at the limit of recoil that many people can tolerate without effecting their accuracy." This was your post.
And then you say that"To me it feels about the same as a 300win mag"
Isnt that a contradiction??? No disrespect but, I have owned and shot many .300 Win mags., and .300 RUM, and to me the .300 Win mag is a kicking fool, and would and does affect accuaracy.

We are kind of getting off the path so to speak.
Iam not asking folks about the virtue of the 7mm. magnum, Iam asking people that own or want to own the "Super 7 mags", what they feel that these give them, that the Rem. 7mm. mag and .30 cals. can't...sakofan.

[ 07-26-2003, 12:55: Message edited by: sakofan ]

Sakofan-While the recoil from the 7mmultramag or 300win mag or 300ultramag does not affect my shooting(probably due to the vast amount of shooting that I do every year conditioning me to recoil)it does affect a number of people.Many can tolerate the 7mmstw or ultramag whereas the 300ultramag would be too much for them.The 7mm stw or ultramag would then be the flattest shooting cartridge that these people can shoot accurately.

The late Les Bowman was a major proponent of the 7mm RM Mag and many credit him with getting Remington to bring the cartridge out. Bowman was an outfitter and guide and he wrote that the worst shooting was done by dudes with 300 Mags and thus he felt that a 7mm Mag would be the best cartridge overall for Western game in the Rockies.

Since the most important thing is the bullet and not the cartridge if one uses the right bullet for the game and range the results will be about the same as other cartridges within reason.

I find that the recoil of the 300 Mags is kind of "mean" myself. I have them and say that I can shoot them but who knows what I or another guy will do when letting a shot off. Since I am thinking about the recoil now it's in the back of my mind. Hopefully it would not result in a pulled shot.

Other famous riflemen used the 7mm Mags for long range shooting also. Both Warren Page and Bob Hagel shot the 7mm Mashburn Super. While I like the 7mm WSM I still feel that the perfect 7mm or .30 mag is still not available. The .300 WM is a good size but we could do without the belt. Thus a 7mm Mag on a 3.3 LOA RUM or WSM cartridge might be just right.

Hagel felt that a 175 gr 7mm Partition was what he wanted at magnum velocites. The 7mm RM will not quite do that but of course his pet the Mashburn will.

FYI--I've usd the 7 Mashburn for years--darn good rounds-in darn good rifles. They will work just fine.

Les Bowman-now there was a shooter! Someone who had done it and earned the right to talk about it for sure. Same with Hagle.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Bob Hagel used the 7 Mashburn, but he did say that anything a 7mm would do, the .30's would do better, due to their slightly larger bullet diameter. However, I am not really convinced that the .30's do anything much better than the 7's, except kick!! Additionally, there really isn't enough difference between the performance of the two in magnum cases to recommend one over the other! Besides. if you have a .30 firing a 180-grain bullet at 3100 FPS vs a 7 firing a 175 at the same speed from rifles that are identical in all orther respects, no-one is going to be able to tell a difference in recoil either!!

eldeguello-I don't use anything but 140gr bullets in my 7mm's.I have taken moose and elk with the 140gr partition and performance was excellent.I believe the 175gr to be totally unnecessary in the 7mm caliber.If I want a bullet that heavy I use a 180gr in my 300ultramag.

[ 07-26-2003, 19:53: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I bought my first 7mm Remington Magnum rifle back in 1977 (I was in my 2nd year of college at the time, so this was a long saved-for rifle!), and it remains my favorite 7mm cartridge to this day.

As much as I love the 7mm Rem. Mag., I quit hunting with it when I got serious about the .300 Win. Mag. some ten years ago. I've found that the .300 will do all that the Seven-Mag will do and then some, plus it's less fussy to work with, a bit more inherently accurate, and produces more predictably high velocities across the board.

Personally, I don't buy into the "less recoil" advantage of the 7mm Remington over the .300 Winchester. I'm not so very sensitive to recoil that I can tell the difference.........

AD

Stock design has a lot to do with percieved recoil. The original stock on my 7mm mag that I carried around Alaska's Brook range for years did "kick" a bit. It's synthetic replacement is a terrific improvement. A similar HS precision stock on my 7 STW tames the recoil of that cartridge such that it is less than my 30.06 Springfield.

Both 7's are very accurate for me and have a good history of one shot kills on a large variety of game from small to huge at widely varying distances. As someone who carried a rifle every day, reliable was and still is the main word.

The 7 mm Rem is a fine round, the STW just a little more of the same thing.

I have found the 7mmremmag and 7mmstw's to be just as accurate as any 300 magnum and just as easy to develop loads for.I have no problems getting either my stw's to shoot 1/2" groups and one averages slightly better than that.

You know we can argue all we want about this but this is what it comes down to with me. At least to me.

I have a couple of rifles that I use a lot-I have extreme confidence in them-they are honest rifles and they are one I can have a talk with when it is slow on the hill.

All three of them have been several different rounds-this is not gonna be any news to you all but they all kill game just fine. Irregardless of caliber they just work-- I know em and I know how to use them.

So, whether my 700 is a 7 Mashburn a 7 Rem a 300 Win a 300 Wby a 340 Wby a 257 Wby or a STW it has always killed just fine when I did my part.

Whether I used light bullets for cal or heavy it killed just fine.

Whether the game was big or small it killed just fine. Whether the range was long or short it killed just fine.

Whether I used a soft bullet, or a preme it killed just fine.

Whether it was a 25 or a 33 I shot it just fine and bump (recoil) be dammed-if I was in tune to it like I should be, it worked just fine.

Whether the bullets did 2800 or 3500 it did just fine.

As long as I directed the bullet to the right spot it killed just fine.

Well I guess you see my point by now--sorry if I did a bit of overkill.

Find a rifle you like-that is honest-that is one you feel really comfy with and get to the hill with it.

Personally I feel it will matter just little bits what the caliber is as long as you know how to handle it!

Just my thoughts.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

I think the recoil factor has a lot to do with it. I have an older Remington 700 in 7mm Rem. Mag. and am quite happy with it. I shoot it a lot from the bench as well as in the field. In an 8 lb. rifle the recoil is manageable and the accuracy superb. There's not much that tromps around N. America that it won't take. I'm amused by the spate of super-duper calibers that are being inflicted on us right now. We don't really need them. Hell, we're shooting rounds for which there are no game. If you can handle the excessive recoil, swell but truth be told, a lot of guys can't, and shoot them rather poorly. Maybe we're just being gluttons for punishment.
Anyway, to each his own. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

There has been some really good replys...
My main question, "Why do we NEED the 7mm. Super Mags", remains unanswered.
Most of the people who responded, were fans of the Rem. 7mm. magnum. You people are very passionate about your caliber. For good reason!!
7mm. mag. is a great hunting caliber, though I have never owned one.
Mark R. Dobrenski mentions the term "confidence" in your weapon of choice. I hartily agree.
For me, at this point in my life, will stick to .30 calibers because of confidence. Real or precieved.
I personally see real value and virtue in the Rem. 7mm. magnum. But, to run out and buy a 7mm. STW, Ultra, or some other 7mm. short action mag, just does'nt make sense.
Not with all my other stuff being .30 cal...sakofan...

Sako--ok this is the way I see -most of this stuff we do not need--it all comes down to want pure plain and simple that about sums it up-at least to me.

We could then also say why do we need a 300 win or whatever when we have the 06. Or why do we need the 7 when we have the 280. Well I think you get my drift.

Actually we haven't really needed a thing since 1925 when the 06 Improved came out--that's what I call the 270..........grinning all the way to the hill
"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Actually if you already had a 7mmmag or stw or ultramag,you would not need a .308" caliber at all.There is very little that we really need and it comes down to what we want.

I'm not cracking on anybody that wants or owns a 7mm. super mag..God bless you...Get it!!!
I ALMOST was tempted to buy a 7mm. Ultra mag., after reading a really good article on them.
I'm sure they are great calibers all.
I will own a Rem. 7mm. magnum some day, because I feel they are a really good hunting cartridge...sakofan..

I see little reason for a 7 Magnum with all the good 30 cal. magnums out there...recoil is the same to me and the 300's seem to kill better...I like the option of 200 and 220 gr. bullets.

The worst enemy of the 7 magnums is the chronograph...

Ray -My 7mmstw's love the chronograph to the tune of 3500fps with 140gr bullets.As to the .308" magnums -I have two 300 ultramags but have no use for 200 or 220gr bullets.If I feel that I need bullets heavier than 180gr ,I will step up to the .338" bore.

[ 07-27-2003, 06:18: Message edited by: stubblejumper ]

I could say the same thing about the 300's, what with a good 7 with I see little need for them. You could make a case both ways--way too much micro management for me though.

As for the 200's and the 220's so few darn people use them that I see little use here. Although I do like the 200's.

It is this amigo's opinion that neither of them will penetrate any farther than a 175 out of the big 7's.

I've clocked plenty of 7's -soo I like Stubble have a very good grasp on what they can do.

I am also with Stubble with the heavier bullets- the big 33's (my 340) is the way I would go if I wanted something over 200 grains.

One other things-I have seen no difference between the killing power of the two like Ray has-I always find it interesteing how we all see things and or perceive things.

For the most part I do feel that way too many people make judgements about certain rounds/bullets based off of lil experience with them and or their own predudices.

Just my thoughts on a rainy night.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Uno more thing--this 300 vs the 7 deal is way too much like a 06 vs ther 280 or the 270...... Personal preference there is no right answer. Kind of trying to tell a fella what type of a lady he should marry-tis up to him and not anything else.

[ 07-27-2003, 06:48: Message edited by: Mark R Dobrenski ]

Again it looks like this has digresed a bit-these last few posts have been a bit off the target with the origianl question.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Ray, I would have agreed with you at one time about the chronograph and 7m/m, but I've since discovered VihtaVuori powders.
3100+fps with 160's, no problem!

I have to agree with Ray's comments.

I've been amazed over the years at how greatly various 7mm Remington Magnum rifles have varied in terms of actual velocity with barrels of the same length, shooting the exact-same loads.

In my experience the average, good 7mm Remington will deliver 3100 fps. with 150gr. bullets, 3000-3050 fps. with 160gr. bullets, and 2900 fps. with 175gr. bullets out of a 24" barrel with carefully worked up loads.

The slowest 7mm Remington I owned had a hard time making 2900 fps. with 160gr. bullets (with any powder), and gave a sticky bolt lift and ejector marks with any load approaching 3000 fps.

The fastest and most accurate 7mm Remington I've ever been around is a Reminton 700 "C" grade (24" barrel) that's been owned by a friend of mine for over thirty years. He loads 175gr. bullets to just a hair over 3000 fps. with IMR 7828 powder, and pressure hasn't been a problem in any weather. He doesn't use any other load, but at one time he was loading H4831 with 160s.

I almost hate to mention this, but I've seen a marked difference in killing power between the 7mm Remington and the various .300s. To me, the 7mm Rem. kills about the same as the .30-06, but the .300s just plain hit stuff harder and seem to bring stuff down more quickly and convincingly that the 7mm Remington, especially elk and stuff like that.

Maybe that's why so many international hunters have gravitated to the .300s over the years........

AD

To answer your question directly, for those that want a fast 7mm bullet, it gives them more speed.
Everything on this planet can be killed with a 22lr.

The perception of recoil is very important. Of course many who post here are expert riflemen and also experianced hunters. Many shoot a lot and have aquired rifles that have proper fitting stocks for their shooting style.

In general the 7mm's have the reputation of having less recoil than the 30's. Also the numbers show this to be a fact in terms of recoil energy and recoil velocity.. Of course there is a little less downrange impact but if the bullet hits in the right place it does not matter a lot.

Some here can shoot .338's all day long and not flinch I am sure but many cannot. Since most shooters are not as experianced as many regulars here the majority of them might be best served by 7mm's for most game. As I recall Hagel admitted that his 175 gr 7mm load was about minimum to get it done at long range.

I was in a Wal-Mart in Montana getting some stuff and I always like to walk by the guns in their stores. I am not going to buy one, I just want to know they are there. So I am standing by the rifle section turning the yellow wheel and I stop by a M 70 in 270 WSM. A guy with a grey beard walks up to the display and I made a comment on the 270 WSM. He tells me that he is going to buy that rifle! The clerk comes over and of the Freudian slip words that he utters are about recoil. He repeats some of the stuff from Winchesters marketing about WSM's and recoil. It's committed to his memory. He also comments that he likes Winchesters 70 for it's trigger and safety.

The guy was wearing Harley Davidson gear so he must be as tough as they come

Recoil does matter.