From the bench this stuff shot to the same place at 100 yards as the 180 Hornady Lt. Mag my 30'06 likes best. I decided to try it culling small whitetail. Dusk of opening day it was calm and misting. The first shot from my treestand was broad side at 100 yrds. The doe froze, turned and staggered straight toward me to within 20 yrd.s. Her back legs were buckling so I didn't shoot again when she turned to my right and stood behind a pine. I could see her feet. While expecting her to fall I saw a second doe through a gap in branches @125 yrd.s out and grazing straight to me. I aimed halfway up her neck so if I didn't hit spine the bullet would enter vitals lengthwise. When I shot she was knocked back on her butt, rolled, kicked, and lay still. I was feeling pretty good. Of the previous 85 deer I've shot I'd only failed to recover five. Then the second doe rolled over, stood and scrambled off the field. I waited 20 minutes still expecting to find both doe down. The short version of this sad story is that 1.5 hrs. of searching familiar ground with a spotlight yielded no blood and no deer. It was the worst day of hunting in 30 years... and totally spoiled my stats.

I hope there are a whole bunch of guys that pay attention to what you say here. roger

Confirms my suspicion that managed recoil 30-06 is best left for practice for the recoil shy. Sorry to hear about the wounded deer.

John

Over the years I've lost three deer (one each to the muzzleloader, bow, and rifle) so I can empathize, but our experiences with the ammo in question differs. I've shot or seen shot four whitetail does taken with a single round each of Remington Managed Recoil 30'06 ammo. Our ranges were closer - 10 to 50 yards - and three of the shots were broadside heart-lung hits. All were recovered within 30 yards. The damage in the wound path was indistinguishable from that caused by full-power ammo from a 260 and 308 used by others in our hunting party that year. We've also used the Federal 170 gr Low Recoil ammo in a 308 to good effect, but the trajectory of the 170 gr flatnose @ 2000 fps leaves something to be desired unless all your shots are close in. Again, sorry about the lost deer.

Sorry to hear that. The first sounds like a liver/gut shot and the second could only be a creased neck shot. Neither can really be blamed on the ammunition or terminal performance.

Deer shot in the lungs/vitals with poor expanding bullets take off fast, run almost unaffected and then lie down before expiring if left alone (can take a long time). Deer that fall over and lie still are creased spine. Hitting vitals or shoulders doesn't give the stillness before getting back up.

Doe 1 is dead, doe 2 is skipping away providing it's cold and there's no flies and you didn't hit the windpipe or oesophagus.

And yes I've done both....For what it's worth it's taking a risk to shoot before the first has fallen. 99.9% we get away with, sometimes not.

You'll just have to shoot a few more without any problems to get your average up (which by the way is about the same as mine)

Why not shoot a 7mm-08 or 260 Rem W/120gr bullets that have decent SD & BC to get the job done?

Similar recoil but vastly superior performance on deer sized game.

In recent years I have come to the conclusion that .308 caliber rounds are more than needed for deer & only result in more recoil W/bullet weights that are appropriate in SC/BC in that caliber.

I would not use anything less than 165gr in a 30 caliber. If you want to drop to 150gr projectiles, go W/a 280 or 7mm008.

I just keep shooting until the deer are done.

With the 180 Hornady LMag or even the Rem. 165 I used for years I'd have gotten a huge exit wound and plenty of blood trail even if I botched the shot. I suspect the lack of blood trail had more to do with a lack of an exit wound than the light mist that fell for 20 or thirty minutes after I shot. I found the spot where the second doe hit the ground and there was was simply no blood there. The spot where the first deer stood after I shot was so boggy I suppose it might have washed away but I suspect I hit her a little high and without an exit wound she bled into the body cavity. Oh well, Too soon we get old and too soon we get old.

quote:

Oh well, Too soon we get old and too soon we get old.

Too soon oldt und too late schmart.
roger

I have been duplicating those Managed Recoil loads for some of the boys to shoot..

The one thing I am not using tho is the 125 grain rem Corelokt bullet that the factory uses...

Instead I am using 125 grain ballistic tips, 130 grain FN Speers, or even 125 grain TNT Speers...

I don't think it was the load that failed.. it was the bullet that failed to do its job..

any of the above bullets I think you would have seen different results...

I think 1894 has right about the hits. You took a chance then you shot a new deer before the first was dead!
The fast hornady load has more of a varmint effect and more energy than needed. Try a downloaded Hornady SST or Nosler Bst in 150-165g.

This week I went back to the Hornady. Thee shots at similar ranges, three clean kills.

Between my 11 year old nephew and I we have shot 3 pigs and 5 deer with the Remington Managed Recoil 308 load which is the same bullet and the same velocity as their 30/06 loads.

Performance has been excellent.

I have been well pleased.

Also the wife and I have shot 2 deer and a pig with the Federal Low Recoil 170gr. 30/06 ammo in our drillings with excellent results as well.

All shots have been under 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Why not shoot a 7mm-08 or 260 Rem W/120gr bullets that have decent SD & BC to get the job done?

That does seem to be an obvious question. Why use a gimmick that will work most of the time when you can use any number of proven cartridges that will work every time you do your part?

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by maki:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Why not shoot a 7mm-08 or 260 Rem W/120gr bullets that have decent SD & BC to get the job done?

That does seem to be an obvious question. Why use a gimmick that will work most of the time when you can use any number of proven cartridges that will work every time you do your part? Dean

BINGO roger

quote:

Originally posted by maki:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Why not shoot a 7mm-08 or 260 Rem W/120gr bullets that have decent SD & BC to get the job done?

That does seem to be an obvious question. Why use a gimmick that will work most of the time when you can use any number of proven cartridges that will work every time you do your part?

Dean

because sadly, not everyone can tolerate the recoil of the time proven loads... hence a market for something with less recoil, that will still do the job most of the time....

I think Rem would have been smarter giving a load with 2400 fps and a 150 grain bullet in the 308 & 06 loads..than a 125 grain bullet at 2600 fps..

I do not have any problems with my 7mm Mag.
The recoil I don't even notice shooting a 160gr bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by holzauge:
I suspect the lack of blood trail had more to do with a lack of an exit wound than the light mist that fell for 20 or thirty minutes after I shot. ...

I gotta agree with that thought. The Managed Recoil Ammo is no doubt a good idea for the Beginners and people with Shoulder problems to Practice with. But, the lack of Exits relegates it to a poor choice as a Hunting Load where I typically Hunt.

Shoot as perfect a shot as can be made, do it enough times, and you will have unexplainable departures by the Deer. Just does not make good sense when you finally get on the inside looking around at the damage that some were able to move off any distance at all. In those situations, Exits are invaluable.

That is why I've previously mentioned "Adequate Cartridges"(which includes a proper Bullet) for the task at hand. Certainly not intended as a Slam on Holzauge, no way to know how the Bullet Design will perform until a few folks try them out.

Thanks for a fine detailed report Holzauge. Darn shame a couple were lost, but your report should keep many other folks from going out with an Inadequate Cartridge.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by holzauge:
I suspect the lack of blood trail had more to do with a lack of an exit wound than the light mist that fell for 20 or thirty minutes after I shot. ...

I gotta agree with that thought. The Managed Recoil Ammo is no doubt a good idea for the Beginners and people with Shoulder problems to Practice with. But, the lack of Exits relegates it to a poor choice as a Hunting Load where I typically Hunt.

Considering that no post mortem was conducted it seems quite a leap to assume the bullets did not exit. Despite Holzauge's hunting experience since the deer were not recovered we can't even be sure where the bullets entered. The experience of those of us who have "reduced to possession" the deer we've shot with this load is that the bullets penetrate well even when expanded fully due to higher striking velocities at close range. Like Seafire suggested I think it's more likely the CoreLokt penetrated completely without expanding enough for a quick kill.

I did a detailed look at the wound channel on all the deer and pigs we shot with this load.

All were pass throughs except one.

My nephew hit a doe a little far back, and it ran out of sight.

We waited a while, and on the follow up the doe jumped up and was running straight away. I fired and the doe went down

The bullet entered the rear ham and made it into the chest cavity damaging the lung.

I was impressed with the penetration and the recovered bullet.

It expanded good and did not coin out, there was still some shank left.


I shot a pig @235 lbs at @75 /80 yards right behind the shoulder and it was a bang flop.

The RP 308 Managed Recoil has worked great for us.

Seen several deer taken with 7.62 Soviet. All dead. Not spectacular kills like with a heavy rifle but all dead. I doubt it was the ammo, and if it was, it wasn't a ballistics problem but more likely a bullet problem.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
Considering that no post mortem was conducted it seems quite a leap to assume the bullets did not exit. Despite Holzauge's hunting experience since the deer were not recovered we can't even be sure where the bullets entered. ...

Excellent points that can't be argued with. I was basing my opinion only on the lack of Blood. With 2-holes in a Deer, I normally get Blood spurting out either one or both holes.

However, in support of Nordrseta's point, there are indeed times when the Innards move over both holes and the Blood just can't get out.
-----

And NE 450 No2 said he did in fact get Exits.

A friend's dad who is recoil sensitive asked me to sight in his Rem 742 using the 125gr lite loads. The didn't have enought "umpf" to cycle the action.....money wasted. He bought a .243.

Sometimes even with BIG exit holes you do not get a blood trail.

The wife and I both killed pigs with a 12 ga slug.
We both had exit holes bigger than a slug.

Both shots were just behind the shoulder.
Both pigs ran about 80 yards.

On the exit side the hair was soaked in blood, but none, not even one drop, near as I could tell was on the ground.

And I looked hard as I could not believe it.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

Originally posted by maki:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Why not shoot a 7mm-08 or 260 Rem W/120gr bullets that have decent SD & BC to get the job done?

That does seem to be an obvious question. Why use a gimmick that will work most of the time when you can use any number of proven cartridges that will work every time you do your part?

Dean

because sadly, not everyone can tolerate the recoil of the time proven loads... hence a market for something with less recoil, that will still do the job most of the time....

I freely admit to being a bit of a recoil wuss, so I really do understand the aversion, but seriously.... If your medical condition is such that you can't shoot a 6.5x55 or something like that, you have to question whether you can hunt with a rifle and it is time to look at other options.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by maki:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

Originally posted by maki:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Why not shoot a 7mm-08 or 260 Rem W/120gr bullets that have decent SD & BC to get the job done?

That does seem to be an obvious question. Why use a gimmick that will work most of the time when you can use any number of proven cartridges that will work every time you do your part?

because sadly, not everyone can tolerate the recoil of the time proven loads... hence a market for something with less recoil, that will still do the job most of the time...

I freely admit to being a bit of a recoil wuss, so I really do understand the aversion, but seriously.... If your medical condition is such that you can't shoot a 6.5x55 or something like that, you have to question whether you can hunt with a rifle and it is time to look at other options.

If more fathers and husbands started new shooters with a 6.5x55 or even a 243 we might not need the managed recoil or low recoil ammo. But year after year we see guys trying to teach beginners how to shoot using a hard-butted 30'06, because "That's the way the Old Man taught me." Such mentors are rarely good shots themselves. For their victims the MR or LR ammo and a PAST Shield routinely work miracles if we can get the Old Man to listen. And, as noted above, a 125 @ 2550 or a 170 @ 2000 will indeed kill deer quite neatly if we do our part.

[/QUOTE]
because sadly, not everyone can tolerate the recoil of the time proven loads... hence a market for something with less recoil, that will still do the job most of the time...[/QUOTE]
I freely admit to being a bit of a recoil wuss, so I really do understand the aversion, but seriously.... If your medical condition is such that you can't shoot a 6.5x55 or something like that, you have to question whether you can hunt with a rifle and it is time to look at other options.[/QUOTE]
If more fathers and husbands started new shooters with a 6.5x55 or even a 243 we might not need the managed recoil or low recoil ammo. But year after year we see guys trying to teach beginners how to shoot using a hard-butted 30'06, because "That's the way the Old Man taught me." Such mentors are rarely good shots themselves. For their victims the MR or LR ammo and a PAST Shield routinely work miracles if we can get the Old Man to listen. And, as noted above, a 125 @ 2550 or a 170 @ 2000 will indeed kill deer quite neatly if we do our part.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. I can see the utility of managed recoil loads for training purposes, but still have to scratch my head when they are chosen as hunting loads given all better alternatives.

Dean

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Fair enough. I can see the utility of managed recoil loads for training purposes, but still have to scratch my head when they are chosen as hunting loads given all better alternatives.

I wish the Remington load delivered the 2700 fps is claims for its 125 gr bullet, but I don't how a 170 @ 2000 - which duplicates 30 WCF performance - is in any way a less effective deer stopper because it's fired from a bolt action rifle.

a rather @$@@%$ painful lesson in sectional density .. sorry man

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Fair enough. I can see the utility of managed recoil loads for training purposes, but still have to scratch my head when they are chosen as hunting loads given all better alternatives.

I wish the Remington load delivered the 2700 fps is claims for its 125 gr bullet, but I don't how a 170 @ 2000 - which duplicates 30 WCF performance - is in any way a less effective deer stopper because it's fired from a bolt action rifle.

I still maintain, the Remington MR load failed based on the bullet itself..

for the life of me, if they can get 2600 fps out of a 125 grain bullet, then with the exact same charge, they can get 2400 fps with a 150 grain bullet...I don't understand why they used their 125 grainer..

I know as I have disassembled shells from the managed recoil loads... the 06 load has 36 grains of IMR 4198 ( or the exact burn rate equivalent) the same charge with a 150 grainer, will give you 2400 fps..or a little more..

there are plenty of good 150 grain bullets on the market that will work just perfect at that MV... from 150 grain FN's by ALL the major manufacturers.. to 150 grain RN's to the 150 grain Ballistic Tip, the 150 grain Barnes TSX and TTSX...

I believe this is another instance of Remington's marketing dept, adopting a very good idea..but short change it by putting a marginally effective bullet on it...just to gain another 200 fps out of it..

the same powder charge with a 110 grain SP Hornady or a 110 grain V Max would be a better choice..as both would have opened up..

I give Rem an A+ for a grade for marketing the concept for non reloaders...

but give them an F for their choice of bullet to put on it..

and while Federal did better by putting a 30/30 bullet on their's... I would have thought a 150 grainer would have been a better choice.. applicable to the market who might be shooting further than those at 30/30 woods ranges..

Thr Remington managed recoil .30-06 loads with 125 grain corelokts are moving about 2660 FPS and generating about 2,000 ft-lb of energy

This is completely adequate for killing whitetails!

If the deer didn't die one might conclude that:
1. It wasn't hit s well as one thought
2. The bullet didn't perform well and either failed to penetrate or to perform in some manner

If both these conditions are met (proper placement and proper bullet performance) then the deer will die and quickly as the energy level is more than adequate.

A .30-30 don't generate 2,000 ft-lb energy and kills deer quite adequately.

Two more clean kills last night with the Hornady.

My nephew also killed a turkey at 80 yards with the RPMR 125gr.

I have only recovered one bullet but it was perfectly expanded.

Akk the other animals shot the bullet showed good damage inside the animal.I normally use 165/168gr bullets in the 308, and I have not had to rezero any of the rifles I have shot the RP loads in.

I can't understand why Rem chooses to use the slug they do.

Why not a 30-30 slug and load the cartridge to that velocity. My son's have taken 2 deers with my '06 loaded w/170gr FN Sierra 36g IMR4198 @ 2350fps. One ran 35yds, other collapsed.

Simple match slug to velocity.

Pete

I cannot speek for Remington, but I am guessing that the thought process was to duplicate/slightly enhance, [and use a properly constructed bullet] the ballistics of the 7.62x39 Soviet.

Many have had good luck shooting deer with this round. I have killed 2 deer with the Soviet myself.

Also they figured out how to make hit real close to standard ammo so rezeroing would not be necessary in most cases...

The wife and I have used the Federal Low Recoil load in our 30/06 drillings and the nephew and I have used the RP LR load in our 308's.

Both have performed perfectly for us.

I started my youngest son shooting the Managed Recoil in his 3006 H&R single shot. He shot a small buck that was facing us when he shot. The buck went down at the shot then regained his feet staggered around for a few seconds and went down for good.
Bryan

When my 15 yr. old was twelve, I took him on a pig hunt. He dropped two in their tracks using the Rem. 30-06 Managed Recoil loads. He shot both perfectly behind the ear. I recovered one of the bullets -- ZERO EXPANSION. Had they been shoulder shots, those hogs would still be walking.

The kid now shoots one of my .376 Steyrs as his go to gun. He is not the least recoil shy. In retrospect, I should have started him off with full loads in the 30-06.

Two more clean kills with the Hornady Tuesday.
Life is returning to normal.

I'd say poor bullet placement is the cause, also opting to shoot two deer when the first isnt known to be dead is kind of counting one's chickens before they hatch.

Guys lets fact facts, perfect bullet placement, but the bullet doesnt open, you still have a dead deer but will take some time to expire. Perfect bullet placement but the bullet grenades, still enough destruction to adequately kill a doe, and she should be DOA on the spot.

The reason Remmy went with a 125gr bullet is its a reduced recoil load, not a great selection for deer hunting when regular 150gr Remmy core-lokts do the job and do it well, but hey they have to sell ammo !