My daughter is soon to turn 12 and will be going deer hunting for her first time this fall. We have narrowed the field down to two choices for her first rifle......the Weatherby Vanguard Compact and the Remington SPS Youth. I'd appreciate any knowledgeable input on either or both. Thanks!!

S10

I've got one Vanguard and have had pretty good results with it, hard to see how you could do better for the price. I think in .243 or 7mm-08 this would be a perfect youth gun.

Neither, buy her the Ruger Frontier in 308. Light, accurate and the stock will fit her, and most important it will shoot rings around anything else out there...............JJ

Vanguard Compact gets my vote. Is it available in 260?...otherwise the .243 is still a fine deer cartridge.

Look for and try to find one of the Remington 700 YOUTH models in .260 Remington! Or better yet, one of the Model 700's made in SS/Synthetic BDL DM utilizing the 24" barrel(1999-2000)!! Neglible difference in weight from the Model 7's due to the balance overall!!! Load it up with Nosler 100 grain BT's ahead of 41-43 grains of VARGET and enjoy! Low recoil, more punch than the .243, and something she can "grow into" as far as the heavier projectiles down the road!! The 7-08's in the "youth guns" or Model 7's(and I feel like it would be the case with the other manufcturers offerings) can be a bit unpleasant for a beginner!! (I feel the 7-08 Model 7 is unpleasant for even and old seasoned fat man like myself based on shooting one in for a friend!! And .308.....forget that!! Make it pleasant for the kid!! GHD

I know this wasnt what you originally asked but have you looked at the Kimber Montanas? Very accurate and I just bought my wife one in 7mm/08. I was very impressed at how the stock sucked up the recoil and the accuracy and trigger pull are first rate.

708...

whatever maker you want!! 100 gr hornady's at 2500.. it'll just go bang

jeffe

Although a big 6 mm and 6.5 mm fan, If you handload, I think the 7/08 is a better One Cartridge Hunting Battery....

I am looking at my son growing a little bigger soon and hopefully will be interested in hunting...I have my eye on the Micro Medallion Browning in 7/08...

I hand load some 120 grain Ballistic Tips every season for a buddy's daughter in Montana and so far she has taken 3 or 4 deer, 3 or 4 antelope and even 2 Cow Elk with that combo...I have the velocity at about 2400 fps...So recoil is like a 22.250....

The Weatherby is strictly a HOWA which is a good option also. The Remington is a decent rifle, but you will want to adjust that factory trigger right off if she wants to hit anything consistently with it....

Good luck..I think teaching a kid how to shoot and hunt is the most enjoyable thing about the sport!

Cheers
seafire

I bought a Browning Abolt in .260 for my 14 yr old daughter. The recoil is fine but she feels it is a little heavy. She likes my Rem 7 in 7mmSAUM, but she would probably change her mind once she pulls the trigger. Her favorite is my Browning Abolt in .204 Ruger that I just purchased from Allen Glore here on AR. It fits her like a glove and she loves the weight, but I wouldn't call the .204 Ruger deer medicine.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Although a big 6 mm and 6.5 mm fan, If you handload, I think the 7/08 is a better One Cartridge Hunting Battery....

I think that's a smart post and agree totally. In fact, if I were told all I could hunt with the rest of my life was a 7-08 I'd not feel handicapped. However, I'll probably start my 12 year old boy out this year with a 270. It can be loaded down nicely and is more like a "magnum" with the throttle opened up. Either are great, do it all rounds.

Seafire,

I am suprised you didn't recomend your favored 6.5x55. This was my choice for my youngest, I got him a CZ-550 in 6.5x55. I agree that the 7mm-08 is another good solid choice.

A word of caution on youth model guns though, kids grow up real quick, seems like a blink of an eye almost and they are young adults. And the youth model rifle that today fits them so well today will be too small in a few short years. THink about this rifle in 4-5 years. The best option in my mind is buy a reasonable compact rifle today, that a cheap synthetic stock is available for, cut the cheap stock down, and save the original so you can drop the rifle back into it in a couple of years.

Most kids also get attached to the rifles their father's get them ( I did ), they grew up and learn their shooting skills on your choice in rifles, and the odds are they will be using this rifle for a long time, usually at least into their mid 20's where they start getting disposable income of their own.

12 years old? I started all my kids out with a a 222 and a 60 gr. hornady bullet..I kept the shots broadside at under a 100 yards..They have all done well over the years and are good shots...any rifle that recoils will be detrimental to them and you....Now let all the naysayers jump in...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
12 years old? I started all my kids out with a a 222 and a 60 gr. hornady bullet..I kept the shots broadside at under a 100 yards..They have all done well over the years and are good shots...any rifle that recoils will be detrimental to them and you......

There is a lot of substance to your philosophy, Ray and enough hunting mileage on those bones to command a good bit of attention.

I taught a neighbor's 14 year old ,slight built son how to shoot. At the time I had a 22 Varminter barrel action screwed down to a Fajen rough finished stock. The kid was a natural with it.

His dad bought a Mod. 94, 30-30 for his first hunt. The boy and his dad went once to the range to sight it in and than shortly after the three of us went to the Avon CO. area to hunt on another neighbor's ranch. I took a small buck with the 22 Varminter the first day loaded with Fred Barnes' 70gr. bullet. The next day the boy wanted to use the 22 varminter. With some reservation I agreed. He was back in camp in about an hour with a nice 2pt. buck.

I wouldn't say the father was pissed at me but shortly after the hunt he was coming on to my wife pretty strong. True story. roger

I started mine with a .243. SHe shot a 22-250 and handled it well, but liked the .243. At age 19, she uses a .300 win mag.
Start small and build up as confidence grows.

My recommendation is the 260 Rem. You choose the rifle

I have both a 260 and a 7mm-08 and they kill deer equaly well, the recoil is lighter in the 260. Loaded with 125 grain bullets it will do the job.

What ever you decide good luck to you and your daughter and happy hunting!

Both are nice rifles so go with the one that feels the best in her hands. My wife is a 97 pounder and loves shooting my 7mm08 so I would highly reccomend that caliber. Good luck and enjoy watching your daughter grow in this great sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
12 years old? I started all my kids out with a a 222 and a 60 gr. hornady bullet..I kept the shots broadside at under a 100 yards..They have all done well over the years and are good shots...any rifle that recoils will be detrimental to them and you....Now let all the naysayers jump in...

Ray,

Some states you have to be 12 years of age to hunt big game(deer) to be legal. My oldest Granddaughter took her first big game animals last year when she turned 12. She used a custom left handed Winchester M70 7mm-08 I built for her. She chose the action and the cartridge after letting her try many different calibers until she found the one she liked. She has taken two nice Mule Deer bucks(big 3 point and a 3-4 pointer) and 4 Wild Boar so far. She can't wait until the season opens this year.

Strut10,

Go with the one she likes, don't make the choice for her. She'll never be happy if you do. Lawdog

.260 or 7mm/08 would both be good choices. The SPS comes with the R3 recoil pad, and it really soaks up the recoil. You might also get her a PAST recoil pad, my daughter used one a few times, till she realized she didn't need it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
12 years old? I started all my kids out with a a 222 and a 60 gr. hornady bullet..I kept the shots broadside at under a 100 yards..They have all done well over the years and are good shots...any rifle that recoils will be detrimental to them and you....Now let all the naysayers jump in...

I couldnt agree more. Start them off right and give them a solid platform to build on.

Ill probably get my boy one of these soon.

http://www.savagearms.com/24f20.htm


As for the original question, Ive not heard of any trigger problems with the Vanguards. Between the two that would be my choice.

Thanks for the help fellers. I guess I should have stated at the onset that the caliber is not a variable. The rifle is going to be a .308. I've loaded the .308 up down and all around over the last 25 years and have a myriad of low-recoil deer loads at my disposal. Then when it's time to turn it up we can do that as well. What I have zero experience with is the two rifle models. My daughter has earned ans saved her own rifle budget and these two seem to be the two options for her, keeping quality in mind. I'm still looking for specific pluses or minuses to both the Vanguard and the Remington. thanks again.

S10

There are so many good options out there now for youth firearms. I remember when I was 12 years old and shooting Dad's .30-06 with a stiff 165gr. handload. That was quite an experience. I had the opportunity to shoot quite a bit, and my favorite low-recoil round is the 6.5x55. So the .260 Remington, being nearly a ballistic twin, should be an excellent choice. 120gr. Ballistic Tips can be pushed to a sedate 2600fps, are usualy fairly accurate, and the high B.C. of that bullet give it good downrange ballistics in comparison to it's pedestrian terminal velocity. Anything in either of those rounds would be a great choice. Buy a youth rifle, then when they grow up, just buy a fullsize replacement stock.

The 7mm-08 is also a pussycat when loaded down with a 120gr. softpoint in the same velocity range as above, same powder capacity (roughly), same bullet weight, same recoil. Step up to full-power 140gr. loads and you've got a dynamite rifle for big game at sensible ranges. With good shooting, good bullets and a stiff handload you can drop big elk and moose like a bad habit with the '08.

If you're dead set on the .308 instead of the others, then I would go with which ever is cheaper. They are both good actions, but Weatherby rifles are pretty "full size", even the compact models are bigger than others. Remingtons normally feel a little smaller to me. Might be easier for her to grow into.

One big plus for a 700 is that when she outgrows that short stock there are many adult sized 700 stocks on Ebay for cheap. If that SPS is one of the new ones with a floorplate look for a 700 Classic SA stock for later on.

quote:

Originally posted by schromf:
Seafire,

I am suprised you didn't recomend your favored 6.5x55. This was my choice for my youngest, I got him a CZ-550 in 6.5x55. I agree that the 7mm-08 is another good solid choice.

A word of caution on youth model guns though, kids grow up real quick, seems like a blink of an eye almost and they are young adults. And the youth model rifle that today fits them so well today will be too small in a few short years. THink about this rifle in 4-5 years. The best option in my mind is buy a reasonable compact rifle today, that a cheap synthetic stock is available for, cut the cheap stock down, and save the original so you can drop the rifle back into it in a couple of years.

Most kids also get attached to the rifles their father's get them ( I did ), they grew up and learn their shooting skills on your choice in rifles, and the odds are they will be using this rifle for a long time, usually at least into their mid 20's where they start getting disposable income of their own.

Schromf:

The major reason for my recommendation is based on what caliber and rifle is READILY available..
I myself prefer a 6.5 x 55... even over a 7/08..

But for the average person, a 7/08 makes life a lot simplier...I also agree with your take on the stock thing...

However, I am the same.. Purchase a full size rifle.. buy a laminated stock or so.. from boyd's.. Cut it shorter as needed.. when it is outgrown sell it and put the original factory stock back on the rifle...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
My recommendation is the 260 Rem. You choose the rifle

I have both a 260 and a 7mm-08 and they kill deer equaly well, the recoil is lighter in the 260. Loaded with 125 grain bullets it will do the job.

What ever you decide good luck to you and your daughter and happy hunting!

Oldun:

I agree with the lighter recoil of the 260 and that is what I shoot.. and the 125 grain partition will drop any animal that can't eat ya!

At least over here. the 7/08 is more readily available in both rifles and ammunition....

cheers
seafire

Watch out about recoil. What we think is light recoil is probably not to a small, young, inexperienced hunter. I am speaking from experience here with my own two daughters.

I purchased a really light .260 not long ago (not for them) that I found to have quite a bit of recoil due to weight.

I generally don't like 22's but I think Ray has it exactly right. Get them a light weight varmint rifle and load up with heavy tough bullets. You'll be there to cover them and I suspect you will keep shots short and shot selection under control. Later, you can get them a heavier rifle and they will have a good varminter.

Strut, My daughter turns 12 first of October. She has been deer hunting since she was 9. We hunt from a two person stand (Its great). She killed her first deer, a doe her second year and her first buck (a small spike) last year. In Illinois it is shotgun only and she shot a Rem. 1100 LT 20 ga. Youth model. My daughter is a bigger than average. She presently is 5'5" @ 125 lbs. We live within 20 min. of Kentucky and went rifle hunting last year on a friends farm. Since she could handle the 20 ga. with slugs, I figured she could handle a medium caliber so I let her handle a few rifles before choosing a Rem. Model 7 youth in 260. All loads have been factory and she handles it really good. Both guns have only 4x power fixed scopes. No luck in Kentucky though.
By the way it was her who asked me if she could go deer hunting, I told her yes if she could pass hunter safety, she did. Best hunting partner I have.
Good luck and make some memories

Think about a youth model in 308. I would have her shoot either the Federal or Remington Low Recoil load untill she can handle regular loads.

David Craig, there are no flies on the 260, or the 7-08 for that matter. Well maybe only a few .
Main thing, make sure the rifle fits her.

I will most likely start her off with a reduced handload with a 125 gr. Ballistic Tip.........or possibly a flat nosed 150 gr. designed for the 30/30. So far, she has shown no fear of recoil up to and including a lightweight NEF 20 ga. single firing field loads. I don't think ther will be any problem with the .308

It looks, too, like the straighter stock on the 700 SPS may generate less felt recoil than the shaplier Vanguard stock.

Strut10
I loaded some of the 30-30 bullets for a friend in his light weight Ruger full stock Bolt 308.
I used IMR 3031. These loads reduced the fecoil quite a bit and killed deer great.
The velocity was around 2300fps.

I would also think about getting her a scope in the 1.5x5 range. One problem many new hunters seem to have is finding the game in the scope.
With the scope set on 1.5 it should make it easy for her.

A Model Seven in 7mm 08 or even better a M.70 featherweight in 6.5x55 would be my choices.

How big is your daughter? height and weight? My step daughter shoots and loves my 257 weatherby. It's an 8 lb. rifle all up and recoil is really not an issue. She's 5'7" 130ish. length of pull is 13" perfect for her.

The reduced recoil loads offered by REMINGTON gives a big lift to trying to fit a gun to a kid or a lady!!! After all, most of the shots are going to be "under 200 yards" and with the calibers they're offered in, the results could be very pleasant!! As well as the shooting of said loads.....even in a 7mmMag!!! My first choice for a "young persons" gun would still be a .260 Remington loaded with the 100 grain projectiles! That's from "on site" experience and the old "BTDT" deal!!! I'm not sure the .260 couldn't replace "Dad's" ole 25-06!!! GHD

seafire: just who is this BBBruce anyway...????

In my business I see a lot of this, Dad wants a new rifle that will work for him so he buy the kid a light kicking 260 or 7-08 and the kid doesn't want to hurt the dumb bastards feeling and the end result is a child that eventually has other plans that are important at school etc. and ends up a none hunter...but to each his own....I raised a passel of hunters, kids and grandkids..

Atkinson..........

WTF???? Where did that come from??
Go back and read the entire post. My daughter is turning 12, wants to hunt deer, and is buying her own rifle with her own money. I was just asking for knowlegeable, constructive advice from coherent people. You don't know me from Adam. You don't know that I have no need for another short-action deer rifle ( I don't even hunt deer with a gun as a general rule). You don't know that this "dumb bastard" is 6'2" tall and couldn't shoot a 12 1/2" LOP gun if I had to. Maybe, if you're that bored, and have that little to offer to this discussion......maybe you should stay in "your business" and "to each your own".

Good day.

quote:

Originally posted by Strut10:
Thanks for the help fellers. I guess I should have stated at the onset that the caliber is not a variable. The rifle is going to be a .308. I've loaded the .308 up down and all around over the last 25 years and have a myriad of low-recoil deer loads at my disposal. Then when it's time to turn it up we can do that as well. What I have zero experience with is the two rifle models. My daughter has earned ans saved her own rifle budget and these two seem to be the two options for her, keeping quality in mind. I'm still looking for specific pluses or minuses to both the Vanguard and the Remington. thanks again.

S10

Well since it's her money, why not (if possible) let her look at and handle what ever rifles you can in .308 and see which one SHE likes? That way it's HER rifle and not something Dad picked up for her. Not that she shouldn't get some advice from you, but keep it that, just advice. Maybe even about caliber?

Even if she makes what you feel is the wrong choice, let her make it. It is VERY important (I feel) for kids to make their own choices if they have saved/made themselves. It's part of learning and pride of ownership. I know it was damn diffacult sometimes for Me to let My son make what I felt where mistakes. They did workout okay most of the time though :-)

My Dad was a pretty smart guy and let Me make make My own mistakes (with fishing gear) but I can remember being happy with my choices (at the time) and really enjoying the fishing we did together while I used My new equipment.

Hope this helps...

Roi

Strut,
WTF, I wasn't even talking about you, I was talking about some folks that I have sent hunting or guided, and thought it was good advise,,,,,so don't get your shorts in a wad! anyway if you ask advise, then don't get hostile if someone doesn't give you the answer you want to hear, which I didn't do btw...my suggestion to you was in a previous post to take it or leave it...

Atkinson.........

From where I sit, your post seemed to be directed to me. And something that random will wad my shorts every time. But the man sez otherwise. Fair enough. No reason to doubt you. I'm beginning to feel unwadded already.

S10

Glad you unwadding...I really didn't direct that post to anyone in particular, it was just a heads up for anyone thats buying a gun for their children, it happens and without forethought...recoil is the biggest reason most females don't like to shoot, and getting a child kicked even a little is counter productive if you want a hunting relationship with your kids....For what its worth.

I agree with you Ray, one of the biggest mistakes I have seen are some dads not the ones on this site! Buy there 100lbs soak and wet 12 yera old an ass kicking model 94 in a 30-30. My first deer rifle was a nice light recoiling savage 99 in a 243. I remeber when I was about 13 or 14 one of my dads supposed friends let me shoot his mossberg in a 308 holy shinto to this day I still have flinching problem that scope got me good, but they all thoughtit was funny. Fortunatley for me my friend build rifles and when I asked him to build me two rifle for my boys he delivered one is in 250 savage and the other is in a 6.5 swede, well the swede was built for my sister but she never really took to hunting so I gave it to my boy. From my experience from the 308 I never hot rod the the swede I use Hodgon youth load data for it. and he loves shooting it and they are accurate loads.

John