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I know I am behind on this but what is the status with the Jameson lawsuit against Winchester??? How will effect those of us who already own a WSM??? I have a 7WSM and do not reload... Thanks Kevin | ||
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I would expect a royalty on every box of ammo and every rifle, if there was not a lump sum agreement. reloading IS cheap, after awhile!! jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I guess you could say Jameson won. It won't effect you for a long while I wouldn't think. If you do have concerns, buy a couple hundred cases to lay up. If factory fodder disappears it will be easy to start reloading. Nate | |||
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Ruger has dropped the WSM's. Winchester closed. Jamison won? Join the NRA | |||
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Now that Kimber is into standard actions, I wonder what there course of action will be? | |||
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Well guys , I guess I am behind , what is the Jameson lawsuit about ? | |||
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He sued Winchester/Olin for making a short, fat mag, similar to his design. | |||
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From what I have read, Jamison won his suit and was granted a 3% royalty for each rifle sold in the WSM calibers. I only read about him going after the rifle manufacturers, not the ammo companies. There was an appeal filed as his patent was too vague and the manufacturers don't think the patent should have been granted. Ruger dropped the WSM as they decided not to pay the 3%, and Kimber has increased the price of their WSMs 3% to cover the charge. I haven't heard about anyone else. | |||
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I have always maintained the USRAC pulled a fast one with the introduction of the WSM line. In retrospect, the WSM's were the cash cow that wasn't. The bottom line is simple: management was cheap, management was careless. This is no different than what had happened at G.M. under Roger Smith. Bean counters don't have to be engineers, but they do have to be car people as in the case at G.M., or gun people like at USRAC. | |||
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By the same logic that started Jamisons law suit then all manufacturers Owe Holland and Holland a boat load of cash for copying and using the belted magnum. Whom ever made the first of anything is owed royalties for making similar designs? I DON'T THINK SO. Winchester made up its rounds off the 348 Winchester, without a rim. Why doesn't Jeffery in England not sue Jamison and Dakota for infringement of their proprietary case. Jeffery made a line of shorter rounds ie. 333 Jeffery. square shooter | |||
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Buckshot, All too common today and to be fair the craftsmen or emploees with pride are rare as well. It's a me , myself and I world unfortunately. As for the WSM, et al, does anyone remember the 5mm remington and others ? | |||
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Inasmuch as designs are pirated, so too is intellectual property and that is what happened at Winchester. It matters not what you think as the courts sided with Jamison. Winchester was headed for the ash bin of history and Jamison's suit had precious little to do with that. Play the blame game if you like, but at least blame management as they were, afterall, the party responsible for the action(s) taken by Winchester. | |||
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I do! Throught its history it seems Remington has been ahead of its time. Guys like Mike Walker are as scarce as hen's teeth today and that's a tragedy. With people like Mike at the helm, Remington wasted no time in the development of the 700 series, but today things are different. Even after one year, most of us still wait to see the new model 798. Many a wildcat was domesticated by Remington and found new homes in their model 700. For reasons that escape everyone Remington compounded their troubles by not strictly keeping to the inventors original intent. Witness the change in twist rates on the 35 Whelen. Much the same can be said about the 244/6mm too, for if Remington had chosen to utilize the multi-purpose concept as did Winchester, the 243 might not have been the screaming success it went on to become. Look what happened when they did compete head to head: the model 37 Rangemaster dominated smallbore for years. | |||
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I don't agree with any of your statements. The M37 Rangemaster never dominated smallbore at all. That was dominated by the M52 Winchester. Mike Walker was there when the much sued and accident prone "WALKER" trigger was put on the 721-700 Remingtons. Walker was also there when the 244 Remington came out with the slow twist and heavy gun that nobody wanted. On the other hand Remington offered a cheap rifle that was accurate and most folks like cheap so it outsold the pre 64 M70. Winchester could not make a autoloading shotgun no matter what that was worth anything. They turned down Browings design and that as much as anything was one of the straws that broke Winchesters back. Join the NRA | |||
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It's all about the sucess/failure ratio. Has remington made mistakes, you betcha! But they've made more successful gambles to balance it out... Winchester has a long string of failures dating back to the turn of the century, while when discussing remington you really only have a handful.... Most notably the 244Rem debacle and the 5mmRimfire and to a lesser degree the 280remington, but after that the pickings get kinda slim for failures to point at.... Of course there is the Remington 660, the 6.5RemMag and the 350Rem.... And someone must be really stupid to reprise that mistake with the Remington 673 and the same cartridges decades later... but even so.... And though it's a sucess NOW wildcatted to a smaller 6.5mm bore the 284Winchester is STILL a "Failure" by any distinguishing criteria, (the soon to be posted outcry from it's cult following notwithstanding) Of course Remington has it's own cartridge that was a failure by itself but lives a sucessful life as a wildcat... the 8mmRemMag which lives on as the 7mmSTW and the 358STA, though only the 7mmSTW has been commercially chambered by a major manufacturer (Factory Remington Ammo and rifles have bene produced) Remington still makes brass every year, but I doubt more than 20% gets loaded as 8mmMag ammo, the rest probably as 358STA, there's little point in forming 7mmSTW brass as that is available properly headstamped at the same price. By comparison the 6mm doesn't seem all that bad because it's STILL offered by both Remington and Ruger.... If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Savage99- You're entitled to your opinion, but you'd be wrong. The Rangemaster was an outstanding .22: so good in fact it sent Winchester back to the drawing board. Not until the C and D models came along did Winchester dominate. Given that 37s were produced in such small numbers compared to the 52, and that they are as bad as you say, just why is it then that they are still to be found on active ranges? Could it be that you're wrong? | |||
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Buckshot, turn on the brain switch the thread was about the WSM not Winchester. Pull you head out!!
Whom wins in court has precious little to do with whom is right and whom is wrong. The jurries were to be made up of our peers. The last court I saw, the jury was so uninformed about guns that much of the time was spent educating the uneducated. Stick to the subject, you will not seem as foolish. square shooter | |||
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Just to clarify, no court or jury sided with Jamison. He got a settlement from Winchester before the case actually went to trial. He did not convince a judge or jury. | |||
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Speaking of craniorectal inversion, as can be seen above I do believe it was your post that lead this thread astray. So put you hands on your knees and push hard. That loud pop you hear will be you head separating from your rectum. | |||
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you guys are C-O-L-D!! Rich | |||
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Pedro7 -If in fact what you is true, just why is it then that a Missouri court (Jamison's home of record) decided in his favor? The facts of the matter are that Jamison won his case, a settlement was reached with Browning/Olin/Winchester before the federal trial began, and he gets his 3% royalty. | |||
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lb404: Um, er, the 348 Winchester is smaller in diameter than the WSMs. The 348 is listed as being .553", but in reality measures some.546"-.547" So just how is it then that the case head, which by the way is solid brass, grows some .010" before becoming a short mag? A magic sizing die perhaps? | |||
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Buckshot, alias buttshot, we were talking about the future of the WSM lineup not who won a settlement. I guess to turn on the light in the think tank one really must have a bulb engaged. Do you think you can find one with both hands? On to serious stuff, The original efforts with the WSM were based upon the 348 case. As it turned out, other modifications were made to refine the case so it would do what Winchester wanted it to do. The final deminsinos are what they are.Such is the way with all things that go through a manufacturing process. Jamison wasn't the only one working short fat cases. Dakota copied the 404 case and improved upon it. The fact that Winchester setteled with Jamison proves nothing. Lawsuits are in and of themselves expensive enterprises. If justice had anything to do with it most of the nuisance suits would never see the light of day. They like the Jamison bit would just fade away. square shooter | |||
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Savage99 has a good point. Jamison didn't really win, wizzum fans lost! Manufacturers will simply tend to not produce the product. Rifle makers, like Ruger, will simply not chamber for them. Commercial ammo will be available for some time to meet legal and ethical obligations, but unless there is a constant demand ammo/compnents will diminish over time. I'm not really a wizzum fan, so I see the whole mess as a public relations ploy that didn't work out so well. | |||
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Like I said in the other ongoing WSM topic Of all the WSM cartridges I think the 300WSM will be with us for a long time to come. And I'd be willing to bet that upwards of half of all the WSM chambered rifles were chambered for the 300. The 270WSM MAY hang on. The 25WSM? you gotta be kidding... has anyone actually seen a 25WSM rifle? Ammo for it? the 325WSM? it will go the way of the other failed 8mm cartridges. In 10 years time 325WSM ammo will be available only from cartridge collectors. WSSM cartridges? I think "Bagdad Bob" (the late Iraqi minister of information) will be missed more than the WSSM cartridges. Though some might think the WSSM's were good cartridges the point is moot, five years from now buying ammo for them will be no easier than buying loaded ammo for your 225Winchester. If you own a WSSM and haven't stocked up on ammo/brass yet better get off your butt and do it soon... There are enough 300WSM rifles around that the cartridge will hang on for quite some time even if nobody makes any new Rifles. AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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The 300 WSM is the most useless, there is no reason for it to exist! The WSSM's on the other hand define a new rifle action size  | |||
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A .25WSM? it's a wildcat the .25 is a WSSM and yes I have seen rifles and ammo for them on the shelf and one at the range even. The .325 WSM is a fantastic idea, and excellent performer too. No it isn't a .338 WM or RUM- thank God. I like it alot, then I have an 8x57 too. I see alot of .270WSMs- more than .300's around here. I like mine alot. I see a fair amount of brass at the range for both. | |||
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I'm still glad I never bought a short mag. They're nice, but I'll stick with my regular plain jane long actions. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I don't normally post to sites where there can be no possibe reasoned outcome. I think that my 7mm WSM is perfect for me. The WSM's, IMHO, are the logical sucessors to the 284 Win., put the same amount of powder in a shorter but fatter case and you increase ignition efficiency without increasinf recoil. They provide cases that are more efficient with less pressure than the belted magnums. What more can I say. BTW, my Model 70 7mm WSM does sub MOA out beyond 300 yards. In politics as in theology! "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, But the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 | |||
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The thing that these threads do show is how many people are willing to fool themselves about how successful the WSM's have been. People can have opinions but facts are facts and the the excellent sales figures of the WSM's are facts.............DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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What do sales have to do with balistics? If you take sales as the baseline then every one would have only a Model 94 30/30! Please don't allow personal prejudices to interfere with with a serios thread. In politics as in theology! "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, But the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 | |||
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This hasn't been a thread about Ballistics. If you will actualy read the rest of the thread you will see that it started asking about the status of the WSM's after the Jamison law suit. You then get the different pro's and con's from people who like or don't like the WSM's. The reason that sales figures are absolutely relavant is that when a caliber sales as well as the WSM's have they aren't going away any time soon.....................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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So what are those sales figures compared to 2004 and 2005? | |||
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IIRC the 300 and 270 WSM's are 3rd and 4th in sales behind the 30-06 and 270 Win.....................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I'd like to see that can you share the URL with us. | |||
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3rd anf 4th huh? that's amusing considering that sales of rifles are always top heavy with 223Rem and 30-30's (So many 30-30's you wonder if there's a small black hole that some bizarre cult is feeding with all the 30-30's made) And in most years 30-06's count for more than 1/4th of rifle sales. AllanD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Well IMNRC I Might NOT be Remembering Correctly, or at least what context it was in. I can't remember exactly where I saw it or I might just be remembering wrong. I do remember something to that effect but I'll call BS on myself until I can find the exact quote.....  ............DJ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I read an article a year or so back that stated more die sets in 270WSM had been sold in a particular month in the USA than for any other cartridge. I am not concerned about the WSM's, the 270 and 300 will be around next centuary and probably the 7mm and 325 will be as well. | |||
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I just read this topic from top to bottom. The main one that I agree with is the one that states, "you guys are C O L D". I don't even own one, but you people that lambast the WSM's and WSSM's are hard for me to understand. Those cartridges are a genuine, practical step of progression in an attempt to improve cartridge design in an evolutionary way. What can possibly be done to improve rifle cartridges today? Do we really need anything new? Can't we get along just fine with a 30-06? Do any of you guys only buy new rifles or cartridges when you actually NEED them? Do you only buy a new cartridge when your old one has become obsolete? Good grief! Are we in this hobby for fun or what? Winchester, Kimber, and others sold tens of thousands of rifles that they wouldn't otherwise by chambering them to these new cartridges. I'm personally sorry that they didn't sell well enough to keep Winchester in business. But they definitely helped themselves, and they helped thousands of shooters get a kick out of playing with something brand new (and arguably better in many respects if not all respects). I can't imagine that anyone would be AGAINST this. | |||
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Well golly gee whiz! The WSMs are wildly successful in cyberspace...just look at all the print they're getting. I had a 300 WSM for awhile in a Mod 70 Fwt. It was an accurate rifle but fed undependably. I had alot of fun playing with it because I'd always kinda wanted to play with the wildcats based off the 348. (I am thankful my wildcatting days are over!) It turned out not to be my cup of tea but the cartridge was good. As for the WSSMs...time will tell. They should be barrel burners and that will make them unpopular. Oh yeah, btw, youse guys are cold!   Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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