Guys,

I need some help. I have a Rem 700 Mtn Rifle in .270 Winchester that I am thinking about rebarreling. I have gotten to the point that I want one hunting rifle for most of my big game hunting and have spent a lot of time dreaming about my ultimate cartridge. I hunt in the Oregon and Idaho deserts and mountains and mainly focus on mule deer, elk, and black bear, with an occasional antelope and dreams of a sheep tag.

After some work my .270 is shooting pretty good with 130 grainers (sub 1")and ok with 150 grainers (1.5"). I know the .270 will do everything I need, but the urge to be different and slightly better performance calls. As a rule I do not shoot big game at more than 300 yards (margin for error is to great for me) so I do not need a laser gun and I don't really like heavy recoil.

Do the .280 Nosler (AI) or .338-06 (maybe AI) provide enough performance gain, especially on big bulls, that I should be interested? I realize that I am going to have to reconcile my need to be different so I am mainly just interested in your feelings on the performance benefits for the larger game while still keeping the round flat shooting enough for the open desert.

Thanks, this place is truly a great resource.

IMO there are two (approximately equal) cartridges for the title of "all around cartridge"

They are the .30-06 and the .280 Remington.

I wouldn't hesitate to take either after any big game or medium game on the planet and if pushed and the proper bullets were available after any DG as well.

Both are enormously powerful and shoot heavy weight bullets for deep penetration.

Ideally both should be handloaded but I'd prefer to handload any cartridge I owned. That said the factory loads for these cartridges are quite adequate for almost every need.

One can go the magnum route but IMO it's just not necessary!

As far as the "AI" is concerned..... It's a joke!

As to the .338-06, it's a heck of a lot for deer and antelope. It's use is best when confined to 600 pounds and over animals.

The .280 and .30-06 will handle the big animals as well and be a lot gentler on the shoulder for most of the hunting we do. That is; deer!

May I also suggest that it'll cost less to trade the gun in for something you want verses a rebarrel.

It may not be the most practical to rebarrel, but it is just what I did with a pre 64 model 70 fwt, turning it into a 280 AI, I'm very happy with the results.I think it would be a great all-arounder for your needs, it's fun to load for and mine ended up being very accurate, shooting 150 TTSX into 3/4" groups with a MV of 3050.... works for me.

quote:

As far as the "AI" is concerned..... thumbdown It's a joke!

If you need to AI a 280 why not just trade in your rifle and go down the 7mm Remington Magnum route? I think the 280 is a good cartridge but sometimes the devil you know is better!

I can't see what's really that wrong with your 270 Winchester that on bigger animals maybe a 160 grain Nosler Partition wouldn't solve!

I'm a great fan in UK of the 270 with a 140 grain Hornady Interlock and have a standard 280 that I use 160 grain bullets in...only because here we don't really need partition style bullets and you can't get a 270 in 160 grain in "cup and core". Cheapskate I am!

Is a 7mm Remington Magnum with 175 grain bullets and the ability to shoot reduced power 140 grain bullets not maybe another answer?

quote:

Originally posted by Juntura:

As a rule I do not shoot big game at more than 300 yards (margin for error is to great for me)

Get the 338-06.

quote:

Does the .338-06 (maybe AI) provide enough performance gain, especially on big bulls, that I should be interested?

Yes. Barnes is loading the 185 TSX from 2900-3000 fps out of a 25" barrel.

I 2nd the 338-06,but i wouldn't bother with the
AI version.I have both and the standard version
i have out performs speed wise.
In my limited experience with several different
calibers of AI,just don't see the advantage.
What every you choose can't be wrong.

I'd pick the 280. The AI version will nip at the heels of the 7mmRM when used in 25-27" barrels. Nosler now makes proper brass for it, but its pricey. I think the 280AI is the only 30-06 based AI that makes any noticeable difference. This is of course, due in part, that the 280 Rem is loaded at lower pressures. If you push it to 270Win pressures, you'll not see a large difference. But, if you go AI, you can still shoot factory 280 Rem.

If you want a little more hp and are conemplating a 280ai I can tell you will really like the cal.you will get 7mm mag vel. without mag. recoil get a premium barrel I use krieger nosler has factory brass or fire form. if the game does not deserve a magnum that is the caliber i use 150 gr.swift with great results.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:


As to the .338-06, it's a heck of a lot for deer and antelope. It's use is best when confined to 600 pounds and over animals.

The .280 and .30-06 will handle the big animals as well and be a lot gentler on the shoulder for most of the hunting we do. That is; deer!

I have to disagree. The 338-06 loaded w/ a 200grNBT @ 2800fps is not too much gun for deer. If so, you could always load it down a bit. For elk, I think it is a step up in power over the 270 or 280 class. Not much more than the ole 06 but just a bit. The problem will be recoil in a very light rifle. One reason I went to the 280 in my mtn. rig. At 7 1/4# ready to hunt it's light, a bit too light for 180gr/06 bullets moving fast, at least for any extended practice IMO. I love my 338-06, but @ just under 9# ready to hunt, it gets heavy on steep mountain sides.
I'm not sure it's worth the slight gain in using a 160gr bullet in the 280 to pay for rebarelling the 270, but to jump to the 338-06 makes sense. With 185gr TSX @ 2900fps+, it's pretty flat shooting for deer & antelope to 400yds & w/ 250grNPs @ 2500fps+ a great 300yd elk rig. I'ld go 23" lt.wt. barrel, maybe fluted if possible. Put a 3-9compact on it to save some more weight & 7 1/2# would be doable.

For a one gun do-it-all you can come closest with the 280AI. I have one and regularly shoot 160 gr Accubonds at 3050 fps with 60 gr RL22 and those cases are over 8 loadings and primer pockets still good. Recoil is still manageable even with a high sectional density bullet like the 160 gr. The 338-06 will shoot the 185's with low recoil but sectional density suffers and if you go to the heavier bullets recoil picks up.

I took it Elk hunting this year but did not get a shot. It goes Whitetail hunting all the time. If I wanted to shoot Antelope I could go down to a 140 or even 120 gr bullet. It shoots flatter than the 338-06 if you ever get a chance to practice and shoot at the longer ranges. Plenty of dies, bullets and cases of all kinds and factory ammo in the 280 Remington caliber.

Perfect? Closer than anything else.

Juntura:

Remember, if you want to shoot lighter bullets,the 270 has the advantage on that side of the issue. Get an 30-06 and call it good.

Jerry

I've done all those calibers and reloaded them all. I've concluded that the most powerfull long-range (practical) caliber you can put on a standard '06 style action is the .338-06 Ackley Improved. I'm getting 2875 fps with the new 225 grain Accubond - that's over 4000 ft# of energy with a bullet that has a BC=0.55. It takes 62.5 grs of Normal 204 powder, 26" barrel, and it's absolute MAX. Moreover, with that velocity and BC it's a 600 yd plus gun. Also, very accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Juntura:
Guys,

I need some help. I have a Rem 700 Mtn Rifle in .270 Winchester that I am thinking about rebarreling. I have gotten to the point that I want one hunting rifle for most of my big game hunting and have spent a lot of time dreaming about my ultimate cartridge. I hunt in the Oregon and Idaho deserts and mountains and mainly focus on mule deer, elk, and black bear, with an occasional antelope and dreams of a sheep tag.

After some work my .270 is shooting pretty good with 130 grainers (sub 1")and ok with 150 grainers (1.5"). I know the .270 will do everything I need, but the urge to be different and slightly better performance calls. As a rule I do not shoot big game at more than 300 yards (margin for error is to great for me) so I do not need a laser gun and I don't really like heavy recoil.

Do the .280 Nosler (AI) or .338-06 (maybe AI) provide enough performance gain, especially on big bulls, that I should be interested? I realize that I am going to have to reconcile my need to be different so I am mainly just interested in your feelings on the performance benefits for the larger game while still keeping the round flat shooting enough for the open desert.

Thanks, this place is truly a great resource.

I normally hunt a combination season (deer/bull elk) here in Co sometimes I may put in for a cow tag during that season also or maybe late cow tag. This year I used a 270WSM for antelope,bull elk,deer and my back up rifle was Lilja barreled 270 late cow used a 30-06 back up same 270.

My wife uses a Kreiger barrel 280AI with 150gr TSX and she like a 30-06 with Lilja barrel for back up rifle with 180gr partiton.

My new 280AI be ready this spring and I plan on using that for everything.


I've never seen the need for a 338 caliber not that there not good or anything don't want to get into a contest with anyone.

I don't like changing bullets what I used for elk in the 270WSM same bullet used for antelope. I figure if I need something heavier or lighter than I get a rifle for that. If your building something like a 30-06/280AI/270 lots of good barrels today.

I own afew deer/elk rifles and I'm starting to cut back and I could very well do all my hunting with 30-06 and 280AI. Well good luck

None of your game is going to notice the difference between a 270, 280, or 30-06.

What I suspect you are looking for is a very accurate rifle.

Because I suspect if your 270 was shooting 150 grainers at 3/4 moa you would be very happy.

I also suspect you don't want to futz around alot.

So I would stick with 270 and have a smith:

1) true the action
2) install either a lilja, krieger, or hart #3 contour
3) float the bbl
4) set the trigger at 2 1/2 lbs

Some folks would say do the above but don't rebarrel just yet. For me, the barrel is the heart of accuracy.

You can do the above without rebarreling and spend say $200 and then find out you have to rebarrel anyway. I would just get it done right the first time.

270 (277 bullet) or 280 (284 bullet) are interchangable as far as the game cares .. don't waste your time with an ai...

338-06 is great

try having you action trued and chamber recut .. and there's nothing wrong with 1.5"

For the cost of a ream job, you could A/I the 270 barrel and have something really different.

i think the closest a guy can come to all-around in the choices you mentioned would be the .280 improved. the heavy end of bullet choices is certainly heavy enough for anything that won't eat you and heavy enough to put the lights out of allot of those that might if shot from a safe, but reasonable distance. at the lighter end, the bore diameter is small enough that they will shoot decently in a tube twisted for the heavier end. all three are good choices. i think the .338's recoil is maybe a bit abusive for light duty, frequent use, such as deerhunting but depending on your own tolerance to recoil, it certainly packs the punch for the bigger critters, but i don't think i'd take it on a coyote hunt. and the '06, well, i don't think there's anything on this planet that it hasen't put down at some time or another, but, because of it's universal popularity, they make bullets that are pretty light for the caliber and you can't twist the gun for both ends of the spectrum, so your going to suffer accuracy one way or the other.

+1 on the .338-06 as an all around caliber. Use the 210g for deer and antelope. Use the 225g for elk & moose and use 250g for the big brownies. If you reload you can always load down or up. The choice is yours.

I don't want to diss the AI fans, but I just don't see the reason for it considering the gain is little. But to each his own and if you enjoy it, knock yourself out.

Wow,

I was not expecting so many ell thought out responses. Sorry I did not post up sooner- I ended up spending the weekend Chukar hunting. I think I saw more deer, elk, and coyotes than I did chukars- maybe I need a drilling.

I know that the .270 will do just about everything the other calibers will do, I just like to be a little different. I also really enjoy accurate guns and my .270 isn't winning any awards there. Based on your responses and some of my own due diligence I leaning towards a 7-06 variant; with 160grain Partitions I should be able to shoot all the game I usually pursue and practice some too.

I've yet to hunt elk but if I planned to make a habit of it with light rifle chambered for something with a .473 casehead I'd pick a 338'06. A 35 Whelen or 9.3x62 would also serve at the reasonable ranges you prefer but they are even more than one needs for the rest of the critters on your menu. My second choice would be a 30'06. Since it sounds as though much of your hunting is done out in the open I'd start with a 26 inch barrel in the Mountain Rifle contour...you can cut back on it if necessary to make it shoot.

Based on everything you have said, since you are going custom barrel, you would be very best served with a 30-06, done properly.

A 30-06 in a custom re-barrel rifle is an exceptional hunting caliber especially with the new Barnes TTSX line of bullets:

150 gr. TTSX on antelope and deer @ 3050 fps

168 gr. or 180 gr. TTSX on elk and moose @ 2870 fps

I would expect clover leaf groups!

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Based on everything you have said, since you are going custom barrel, you would be very best served with a 30-06, done properly.

A 30-06 in a custom re-barrel rifle is an exceptional hunting caliber especially with the new Barnes TTSX line of bullets:

150 gr. TTSX on antelope and deer @ 3050 fps

168 gr. or 180 gr. TTSX on elk and moose @ 2870 fps

I would expect clover leaf groups!

Very true, but the 06 doesn't fill the one desire of the OP, something a bit diff. That is why I own a 280 & a 338-06, not a 270 & 30-06.

I've owned a 270 Win. I did the rebarrel to 338-06 and have loved the outcome. I've taken a large Bull with my 7mm RM and have seen a good bull taken with the 280 Rem.They aren't even close to a 338-06 for effect on target with Elk.As for deer the 180 or 200 gr Nosler or the 185gr Barnes at close to 3000 FPS are the ticket. I shot my cow last year at 250 yds with a 200 Northfork in 338-06 she went down for the count.

You know, I tried the 338-06 thing. I had this grandious notion that I should build all the great calibres on the 06 case. I had the 270 already, so I started, my next was a 35 Whelen, and then a 338-06, then a 6.5-06 and so on but the 338 didn't do it for me. Maybe it was because I built it on a Brno (98)action. I couldn't get any of the vels you guys are talking about. Maybe it's because I didn't build it with a 28" barrel, or maybe it's because I didn't wnat to spend a lot of money on new bottom metal, but I couldn't get close to the Whelen in vels, with 225 and 250 grain bullets, and my Whelen had only 24" of barrel. Needless to say I sent it down the road. Just my 2 cents. I figure I could have done better with the 270 Win.

Jerry

Just to verify my statements I checked my spread sheet for my loads.
Chrono'd loads
185 MRX-3000 FPS-N150 and Imr 4064
200 Accubond-2900-Imr 4064
200 northfork-2850-Imr 4064- most accurate bullet I have used.
210 Nosler Part.-2800- H4350
225 horn-2700-H4350 and Big Game.
My rifle is a Win model 670 PF with a 24" barrel.
Nosler loads the 210 part at 2750 if I remember correctly. May not be possible in your Rifle as each is different.

Juntura,

My favorite round is the 270 Winchester, and it has been for over 40 years; I've used all over the US, Canada, and Africa with terrific results. I have also used the 280 A.I. on mid-sized non-dangerous game with terrific results also and I will say my experience is it is a 7mm Mag in an unbelted case. Never used it for Dangerous Game just cuz I never had the opportunity but would if the situation presented itself.

My advise is to build a 338-06 and here is why. my wife started hunting from a background of never having been around a gun at all before we were married. She gradually worked her way up from 22 rimfire to shotgun up to 3.5" 12 gauge and she even owns a 375 H&H Mag and shoots it better than most guys I know-seriously.

I started her on a 270 Winchester with A-Bolt with the Boss system so she could have the benefit of the muzzle brake is needed.

Before we went to Africa on our last trip she wanted something a bit bigger so I purchased a used/like new 30-06 Remington sent it to Hart Rifle Barrels and had them put a 338 barrel on it proportionately increased to have the same wall thickness as the 30 cal barrel and chambered it to 338-06.

She shot 9 of 11 animals with it with one shot including Zebra, and kudu (2) at 311, 264 and 282 yards respectively. Oh, yes, one shot kill on elk at 354 yards.

I load either 210 Nosler partitions or Barnes triple shock bullets, in her rifle both shoot to the same point of aim at 100 yards.

I used her rifle in Tanzania for my plains game and it killed like a 338 Win Mag with much less recoil and muzzle blast.

So, even though I love the 270 Win. I'm having a 338-06 being built on a Remington action. I have relatives in Idaho and hunt there often, you would love this cartridge.

OH, by the way; for those of you that are thinking my wife is 6'2" & 240 lbs, no that's me; she's 5-3 #120 and this is her favorite gun now and she will, at times, grab it even for calling coyotes just cuz she can and every time she kills another animal with it her confidence in the gun get's just that much greater and isn't that what we are all want out of at least one gun?

Make the 338-06 you won't be sorry, I promise!

In fact if you want to talk to a local gun maker email me at trzr1@msn.com I'll get you hooked up with him if your interested. I'm not trying to get the business just someone you can talk to. He's making 338-06's 10 to 1, seriously and no he's not making mine just a good guy that will give you the straight talk.

Good Luck!

As I've posted many times before, I'm admittedly biased towards a .270 Win. This after having succesfully used it here in Ak. for about 40 years. I use one other rifle for hunting - a .338 Win. Mag., mainly for moose.
My .270 will consistantly do very close to 3/4" groups with a 150 gr. Partition and is a Pre-64. I wrote the above to give you a perspective of where I'm coming from.
I think the bottom line is that you're not satisfied with the accuracy of your .270 and therefore want a change. The .270 will work just fine on all of the game you listed though I could see wanting to step up to a larger caliber for your elk. I think you should look at getting your .270 worked over by a competant gunsmith and perhaps refine your 150 gr. loads.
If you want another larger caliber rifle, I think I'd look at getting another rifle in .338-06 as suggested or perhaps a .338 Win. Mag. You won't be shooting the larger cal. that much but it would be available if you should want it. To be honest, I don't see much advantage by stepping up to a .30 Cal. rifle over your .270. A .338 Cal. makes much more sense.
Just my thoughts.
Bear in Fairbanks

quote:

Originally posted by crabyx78:
I 2nd the 338-06,but i wouldn't bother with the
AI version.I have both and the standard version
i have out performs speed wise.
In my limited experience with several different
calibers of AI,just don't see the advantage.
What every you choose can't be wrong.

I doubt the A.I. version will be worth the extra effort ballistically. That said, however,
the shoulder on the improved version trips my trigger when compared to the plain vanilla version.Anyone who cannot get a small velocity increase with the improved version isn't loading it correctly...it holds more powder.


Bullets and powder are available that can tailor loads for anything huntable in this country! My own preferrece, though, would dictate I trade the Remington action for a commercial FN mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:


As to the .338-06, it's a heck of a lot for deer and antelope. It's use is best when confined to 600 pounds and over animals.

The .280 and .30-06 will handle the big animals as well and be a lot gentler on the shoulder for most of the hunting we do. That is; deer!

I have to disagree. The 338-06 loaded w/ a 200grNBT @ 2800fps is not too much gun for deer. If so, you could always load it down a bit. For elk, I think it is a step up in power over the 270 or 280 class. Not much more than the ole 06 but just a bit. The problem will be recoil in a very light rifle. One reason I went to the 280 in my mtn. rig. At 7 1/4# ready to hunt it's light, a bit too light for 180gr/06 bullets moving fast, at least for any extended practice IMO. I love my 338-06, but @ just under 9# ready to hunt, it gets heavy on steep mountain sides.
I'm not sure it's worth the slight gain in using a 160gr bullet in the 280 to pay for rebarelling the 270, but to jump to the 338-06 makes sense. With 185gr TSX @ 2900fps+, it's pretty flat shooting for deer & antelope to 400yds & w/ 250grNPs @ 2500fps+ a great 300yd elk rig. I'ld go 23" lt.wt. barrel, maybe fluted if possible. Put a 3-9compact on it to save some more weight & 7 1/2# would be doable.

Listen to Fred. He knows what he is talking about and I agree with his assessment. By the way, a Sightron 2,5 x 10 compact works well.
I found the Burris 2x7x35 to be ideal on mine,

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I've done all those calibers and reloaded them all. I've concluded that the most powerfull long-range (practical) caliber you can put on a standard '06 style action is the .338-06 Ackley Improved. I'm getting 2875 fps with the new 225 grain Accubond - that's over 4000 ft# of energy with a bullet that has a BC=0.55. It takes 62.5 grs of Normal 204 powder, 26" barrel, and it's absolute MAX. Moreover, with that velocity and BC it's a 600 yd plus gun. Also, very accurate.

NUFF SAID!

quote:

Originally posted by Rob1SG:
I've owned a 270 Win. I did the rebarrel to 338-06 and have loved the outcome. I've taken a large Bull with my 7mm RM and have seen a good bull taken with the 280 Rem.They aren't even close to a 338-06 for effect on target with Elk.

In this month's issue of Rifle Shooter magazine, a chap wrote a letter to Boddington stating how the 7mm Rem. Mag has more power than the 30-06 and he stated bullet grains.

Boddington correctly replied and stated the frontal area of the 30-06 hits harder than the 7mm. It is true.

When a .338 caliber bullet takes out the lungs or heart, the result is lethal. The .338-06 hits extremely hard and amazing Remington, Winchester or Weatherby do not chamber it.

You guys are AWESOME, but sure can cause a dude to scratch his head when it comes to decision time.

Cheers!

Tyler