Got back to playing with the 338-06. Is a 22" Douglas barrel chambered and installed on a commercial FN action (from a J.C. Higgins rifle).

Have had problems with the thing eating brass ... at powder charge levels well below the minimum charge listed by Hodgdons, the brass forms a bright line abt 5/8" above the top edge of the rim. The brass will eventually separate. This line is well above where the web begins.

Fired brass does not appear to have had the shoulder moved forward. Head of the cartridge cases do not appear to be over expanded.

Today I fired 7 rnds of 225 gr Hornadys on R-P brass. Was loaded with 47.5 gr BL(C)-2 ignited by CCI 200 primers. Hodgdon's manual lists the starting charge as 51.0. Steve's Reloading pages shows the same starting charge. Based on the primers, the pressure is high. They are flat but not cratered. Brass showing the bright line.

Has shown the same higher than typical pressures with 225 Hornadys with AA4350 and Nosler 210 Partitions with RL-15.

The headspace and bore diameter have been checked at Douglas and found to be OK since I noticed the problem. Locking lugs on the bolt appear to be fine showing no deformation at all. Barrel was dismounted and inspected. Locking lugs in the action were checked. Chamber was repolished. Headspace was checked after reassembly.

Die set used for the reloading was made by Redding.

Thoughts?

get rid of it

mstarling:
I don't own nor have ever worked with a .338-06 and I realize you're an experienced reloader but...
Could it some how be possible your sizing die is misadjusted, pushing the shoulder too far back? I wonder what would happen with factory ammo since I understand that it is now commercially made. I think I'd try to get a box of factory ammo and measure the case length to the datum line. I'd then set my dies up to PFLR the fired cases.
Other than that, I dunno but wish you good luck. Bear in Fairbanks

Can you post pics of the brass?

Next question, are you necking up .30-06 brass or necking down .35 Whelen brass?

Is it new brass or fired?

Can you drop a bullet into the neck of a fired case?

That should do it for now.

WHAT ARE THE VELOCITY LEVELS? ARE THEY HIGHER OR LOWER THAN EXPECTED? I HAD A 2506 ONCE THAT HAD A VERY TIGHT CHAMBER. POWDER CHARGES HAD TO BE ON THE LOW END, BUT VELOCITIES WERE ON THE HIGHER END.

Is all of the case lube off of the cases?
Can you do a chamber cast?
Have you checked case head expansion?
Keep us posted- that's a curious one

Am meticulous about case lube ... cases are 30-06 once fired sized up with the .338-06 sizing die, lube is cleaned off with WD-40 on a cloth and then the cases tumbled. Only then are they primed and loaded. All charges have been weighted on an electronic scale (which has been checked with standard weights). Zero is checked between rounds.

No indication of case head expansion.

A Corbin swaging press is used for all reloading operations ... is a very "straight" and concentric press.

Have not done a chamber cast yet, although I do have the materials.

Have done another 6 cases ... this time at 45.0 gr of BL(C)-2. Will try to chrono them when the weather clears. May be Friday or Saturday.

I reload LOTS of rifle calibers (.223, 6mm Rem, .264 Win Mag, .270 Win, 30-30, .308 Win, 30-06, .308 Norma Mag, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag, 9,3x62, 9,3x74R, .376 Steyr, .375 H&H, .376/.416 Steyr Improved, .416 Rigby, .458 AR, and .470 NE). I load for bolt rifles, double rifles, semiautos, and machineguns. Personally, I have never seen anything like this. Have some rifles that are a bit tight and require a little less powder to get velocity ... but nothing like this.

Could be a head space issue.

It certainly sounds like you are setting the case shoulders too far back.

I would check with the die mfg to make sure the die is the same spec as the chamber reamer. Sounds like your die may be a bit off. You could also have a bad shell holder. You can have RCBS make one if you send them a fired cartridge, but best to work with the company you bought it from.

Barring a bad die, might be an issue with a slightly ovaled chamber, but you would know when you try to resize the brass that something was amiss.

John

You can try over-expanding your brass on a mandrel to 35 cal. Then form a false shoulder on the neck with the 338 sizer. Bump the false shoulder back only far enough for for the brass to chamber. Brass can them expand on firing to fill the chamber.

You definitely have a severe excess headspace condition. Now you need to figure out if it is the rifle or your die setting. A Go, NoGo, and Field gauge will tell if the rifle has excess headspace or not. The trouble is you have a Wildcat and wildcats are made a few different ways typically. Once you determine that the rifle is good then get to adjusting your dies! If the rifle is determined to be bad, have the barrel "set back" and rechambered by a competent induvudual.

Airgun1,

The rifle's headspace was checked with gauges when it was built and after being reassembled at Douglas Barrels. Passed both times.

Winchester 69,

Will try that ... will be interesting to see if there is any difference!

Consider neck sizing only. If I were a bet'n man, which I am, I'd say that your sizing die is pushing the shoulder to far back.

If it turns out to be the sizing die, then simple have one made to your chamber.

When all else has been eliminated what remains must be the truth! After all you've already checked out the headspacing and bolt lugs.

If you trust the builder and supplier then it is an ammo caused severe, excess headspace condition.

This is way more complicated because it is a Wildcat. There are some propietary 338-06 loadings called the 338 A-Square, but I think that may also be an Improved loading; either way, their 338-06 and your 338-06 may not be the same.

What are you using as a parent case?

How are you modifying it?

Most wildcatters form the case to a degree and fireform the rest if it isn't possible to finish the job statically.

To fire form, use a light charge(from the manual) of the fastest recommended powder and seat the bullet way out to where it jams into the lands. This forces the case against the bolt face and helps the case to only expand on the front half. Yours is expanding at the rear half, where it is the weakest.

Again, this is difficult to diagnose over the net as to the amount of variables.

I have made hundreds and hundreds of .338-06 and .338-06imp. cases out of 30-06 brass. (mostly once fired)

I always use a "fire form load" to pre form the brass BEFORE loading with a bullet. This moves the shoulder ahead "enough" to form the headspace, then full length size the case with the .338-06 die and load a bullet to finish forming the case. BE SURE YOU SET THE DIE OUT ENOUGH SO IT DOESN'T SET THE SHOULDER BACK!

I've yet to loose a case by seperation by making cases like this.

DM

You may try some unprimed 338-06 Norma brass and see if you get the same result.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
If you trust the builder and supplier then it is an ammo caused severe, excess headspace condition.

This is way more complicated because it is a Wildcat. There are some propietary 338-06 loadings called the 338 A-Square, but I think that may also be an Improved loading; either way, their 338-06 and your 338-06 may not be the same.

What are you using as a parent case?

How are you modifying it?

Most wildcatters form the case to a degree and fireform the rest if it isn't possible to finish the job statically.

To fire form, use a light charge(from the manual) of the fastest recommended powder and seat the bullet way out to where it jams into the lands. This forces the case against the bolt face and helps the case to only expand on the front half. Yours is expanding at the rear half, where it is the weakest.

Again, this is difficult to diagnose over the net as to the amount of variables.

The 338-06 is not a wildcat, it is a SAAMI spec cartridge. Can't recall when SAAMI recognized it and issued specs, but not yesterday. Any recently made dies or reamers ought to be SAAMI spec.

I vote with the die setting the shoulder back too far.

JPK

I just visited the SAAMI website. They do not list the 338-06 as a SAAMI spec cartridge. I stand by my statement of the 338-06 A-Square being a propietary cartridge. I will again state that I am not sure if the A-Square is an "Improved" version or not.

ETA: I am apparently wrong. The 338-06 A-Square is a SAAMI Spec cartridge, legitimized by Weatherby. It does not appear on the SAAMI website's own list, but Nosler lists it as SAAMI.

I am not calling you out, but please back up your claim with hard evidence. I am far from an expert. ETA: Thanks for the pics.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
If you trust the builder and supplier then it is an ammo caused severe, excess headspace condition.

This is way more complicated because it is a Wildcat. There are some propietary 338-06 loadings called the 338 A-Square, but I think that may also be an Improved loading; either way, their 338-06 and your 338-06 may not be the same.

What are you using as a parent case?

How are you modifying it?

Most wildcatters form the case to a degree and fireform the rest if it isn't possible to finish the job statically.

To fire form, use a light charge(from the manual) of the fastest recommended powder and seat the bullet way out to where it jams into the lands. This forces the case against the bolt face and helps the case to only expand on the front half. Yours is expanding at the rear half, where it is the weakest.

Again, this is difficult to diagnose over the net as to the amount of variables.

The 338-06 is not a wildcat, it is a SAAMI spec cartridge. Can't recall when SAAMI recognized it and issued specs, but not yesterday. Any recently made dies or reamers ought to be SAAMI spec.

I vote with the die setting the shoulder back too far.

JPK

Weatherby doesn't sell wildcat cartridges.

Nosler Custom ammo is made for the 338-06. If all else fails buy a box and see what that brass looks like aftr firing.

Hi, Mike. If the gun checks out, all that is left is a die or shell holder induced headspace problem.

The flat primers and separation would indicate to me that the firing pin is driving the whole case forward. As pressure increases, the case walls grab the chamber in the forward position at the same time pressure backs the primer out by the amount of excess headspace. As pressure rises, the case stretches backward but high pressure in the primer cup causes it to stick and flatten into the radius of the primer pocket as the case head is driven backward (like a rivet). You are swaging the primer cup flat by mechanical means, not with overly high pressure. It looks much the same as a high pressure problem.

Since that charge is so low, another way to check this without a false shoulder is to long-seat the bullets until they are hard into the lands. This will keep the case from moving forward long enough to prevent the condition described above. It's how I fire form all my cases, including a 338-06 AI. I bet if you do that the problem will vanish. Then all you need is a new die or different setting for that one.

But the weird thing is that with a claw extractor, the case head should be secured against the bolt face and not able to be driven forward like that. You might want to check your extractor tolerances and a sloppy fit to the case rim? If you try the long-seated bullets, don't close the bolt on a loose round and risk pushing the bullet deeper as the extractor snaps over the rim. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:


Weatherby doesn't sell wildcat cartridges.

Thank you Onefunzr2. A picture is worth a thousand words.

JPK

i would have to agree with airgun1 and tigertate about the headspace thing another concern is that when this happens, depending on how deeply you seat the bullets, it also shoves the bullets up against the rifling, compounding the effect.
your problem reads exactly like my 6.5x.270 improved problems i am having. search my threads and you will find it is my first series of posts from when i joined this great site.
i haven't done any work with the rifle for a while as i've taken it apart for a possible rechamber, but i have thought that i might put it back together and give it one more chance by trying to form some brass from 'o6 or .280 cases instead of .270 cases. my thinking, (thanks to the knowledgeable people on this site) is that i might not be getting enough secondary shoulder with .270 cases, the outside neck diameter being so close to the throat diameter of the 6.5. with a newly formed shoulder being somewhat rounded and so small, the pin is pushing the case into the throat. my cases are showing the exact same high pressures, flat primers with slow powders barely off starting load weights. i have lost quit a few cases to head expansion and/or loose pockets as well. my headspace has also been checked a million times, setback checked and the chamber casts good(on the tight side, which i prefer) as well.
about the only thing left that hasen't been tried is this shoulder issue, so i have to at least give it a go before i rechamber it.

I saw something similar on a used re-barreled 270 I had a while back.

It passed using two different headspace gauges, but showed excessive headspace on firing.

What is was, was it had been chambered with two different reamers (I'm deducing), and had a 'false' shoulder a few thou short, that the headspace gauge was catching on. It had been polished so it wasn;t really evident on a fired case.

The way I figured it out after two gunsmiths checked it with gauges and the problem still existed, was using scotch tape on the base of a new unfired case, and the chamber would eat over 12 thou of tape on the base of the case.

I just used 280 brass in that rifle from then on.

Weatherby sells non-SAAMI cartridges, i.e. 340 and 378 Weatherby Mag, which are Proprietary cartridges. They do not sell wildcats.

What is odd is that both the 338-06 A-Square legitimized by Weatherby and the 338-378, which is made from the 378 Weatherby are SAAMI.

Another oddity is the 30-378 Weatherby appears to be Proprietary. My friend has a factory Sako chambered in one in his shop for sale.

The only thing you can count on is not being able to count on anything.

Does it do it when you load to book minimum loads? So far, all I have seen is that you are WAY under minimum loads. I had a 308 that did the same thing when I was trying to load it to 30-30 levels. The issue was the same as tiggertate describes, but it was because there was not enough pressure to expand the case well enough to have it expand and grab the chamber walls, so it was basically "slapping" back and forth in the chamber upon firing. When I went to standard loads and pressures, the problem went away.

I know it sounds counter intuitive, but load up some with mild-mid range book loads and see how that does.

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by trigger:
Could be a head space issue.

BINGO!!! I'll bet the chamber is not correct.
Full length resizing can cause this if the die is not correctly adjusted.

I'd also try switching to IMR 4320 powder with 225grain bullets. It is the most consistant
powder for pressures and velocities. Accuracy is great.

By the way, my 338-06 A.I. is made on an old Sears FN with a Douglas XXX barrel cut at 22.5".

I've been reloading for over 30 years and the only two issues I've ever had was Federal primers not expanding properly and sealing the primer pocket on a custom 7X57. I've also had two instances where NORMA brass had necks that were too thick from the factory. Neck reaming solved that issue.

The only separation issue I ever saw was a friend's 280 Remington had an occasional separation, and we deduced it was because he had a 7X57 rechambered. A new barel solved that problem.

So far ... have taken 10 pieces of brass and necked it up to .366 with a 9,3x62 sizing die that has a tapered expander ball.

I then put the .338-06 die into the press and set it 2 turns out. Progressively did the "shorten, size, chamber check" the brass until it just allowed the rifle bolt to close.

The sizing die is just under 1/2 turn above the shell holder. Will measure the distance with feeler gauges so I can reproduce it in the future.

Now I need some sort of fireforming load. I do not have any "cheap" .338" bullets ... anyone have a fireforming load for the .338-06?

If I can get them fireformed, I'll take three pieces of brass and shoot it, neck size it, and shoot it again to see if this is making any difference in the brass failure mode.

Mike,

Fireform with 225 grain Hornady interlock bullets over 52.0 grains of IMR 4320.

Most problems with wildcatted chambers are usually the result of an improperly cut chamber.
This is especially true with gunsmiths who sharpen their own reamers.

Fireforming, then neck sizing only will most likely cure your problem as the brass will match the chamber after fireforming. Neck sizing only will prevent returning the brass to a too short condition.

If this fails to cure the problem, send it to I.T.&D. in Minerva, Ohio for a new barrel contoured to match the old barrel. Stock fit will not be affected.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
So far ... have taken 10 pieces of brass and necked it up to .366 with a 9,3x62 sizing die that has a tapered expander ball.

I then put the .338-06 die into the press and set it 2 turns out. Progressively did the "shorten, size, chamber check" the brass until it just allowed the rifle bolt to close.

The sizing die is just under 1/2 turn above the shell holder. Will measure the distance with feeler gauges so I can reproduce it in the future.

Now I need some sort of fireforming load. I do not have any "cheap" .338" bullets ... anyone have a fireforming load for the .338-06?

If I can get them fireformed, I'll take three pieces of brass and shoot it, neck size it, and shoot it again to see if this is making any difference in the brass failure mode.

Why fireform, 338-06 brass can be had by norma, a little pricey, but should last a long time, and should cost less than fireforming. The other plus is all your rounds will say 338-06 in case you ever go someplace where that will be an issue.

John

Yesterday evening I had a similar separation (from the description) for the first time;
it was with a Factory Norma 232gr 9.3x62.

(will post pics later).

Quite a surprise and impressive gas release.

Have never had this with a handload in any calibre.

Wow, this really stinks for you. I have a 338-06 and use the Redding dies (both FL and Neck sizing) and they are both fine.

Really I think that a chamber cast of the rifle is in order now, hopefully the chamber cast will also show you some of the throat. I would also call Redding at this time and send them the sizing die and ask them to inspect it.

One of the two are out of spec somewhere.

Might even make two chamber casts and send one to Redding with the sizing die, so they can comprare them.

Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
So far ... have taken 10 pieces of brass and necked it up to .366 with a 9,3x62 sizing die that has a tapered expander ball.

I then put the .338-06 die into the press and set it 2 turns out. Progressively did the "shorten, size, chamber check" the brass until it just allowed the rifle bolt to close.

The sizing die is just under 1/2 turn above the shell holder. Will measure the distance with feeler gauges so I can reproduce it in the future.

Now I need some sort of fireforming load. I do not have any "cheap" .338" bullets ... anyone have a fireforming load for the .338-06?

If I can get them fireformed, I'll take three pieces of brass and shoot it, neck size it, and shoot it again to see if this is making any difference in the brass failure mode.

Why fireform, 338-06 brass can be had by norma, a little pricey, but should last a long time, and should cost less than fireforming. The other plus is all your rounds will say 338-06 in case you ever go someplace where that will be an issue.

John

I agree, John. I have a 30-06 and I just don't like the thought of having another caliber with the same headstamp. I bought 100 NORMA brass from Huntington's. This should last me long, long time.

However, fireforming is a standard procedure with any wildcat. I don't care if Weatherby has "standardized" the 338-06 or not......To me it is still a wildcat which begs for a chamber problem.

Since I don't trust the neck thickness on NORMA brass, I just ordered a neck reamer from Midway that will fit my Forester case trimmer.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:
Mike,

Fireform with 225 grain Hornady interlock bullets over 52.0 grains of IMR 4320.

Most problems with wildcatted chambers are usually the result of an improperly cut chamber.
This is especially true with gunsmiths who sharpen their own reamers.

Fireforming, then neck sizing only will most likely cure your problem as the brass will match the chamber after fireforming. Neck sizing only will prevent returning the brass to a too short condition.

If this fails to cure the problem, send it to I.T.&D. in Minerva, Ohio for a new barrel contoured to match the old barrel. Stock fit will not be affected.

I agree. I have no issues w/ my 338-06 using Redding dies. Brass lasts forever. You have a headspace issue somewhere; either dies or chamber or little of both. Neck sizing or partila sizing should give you better brass life. Any load 5% of your working load will be goo for fireforming. The trick fo rme fireforming, is getting the case supported. So bumping up like you have works so does jambing the bullet int othe lands, but then I go w/ loads 10% off my working load. Not a fan of ball powders in the 338-06 but RL15, 4064, 4320, VV150 all work well. My fav. powder for all bullets from 200gr-250gr is H4350.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:

Now I need some sort of fireforming load. I do not have any "cheap" .338" bullets ... anyone have a fireforming load for the .338-06?

I would use full-house loads from the Nosler book. For some reason, low-pressure loads are prone to cause a split in the shoulder when fireforming. I had that problem with my AI until I finally read what was causing it. From then on I used max book loads for the standard round (and in the faster of the powders listed) to fireform. I think it would best in your case to use something like Reloader 15 or IMR 4064. A box of 50 Speer 200 gr Hot-Core bullets is 26 bucks at Midway. If you're not in a hurry, send a PM with your address and I can mail you a dozen of something if that's all you need.

BTW, I always bought Remington 35 Whelen brass for my 338-06 AI because I could neck size the 35 caliber a bit short and get the "bump" you're having to make with the 9.3 expander ball.

I have a pre-commercial 338-06 wildcat built about 40 years ago on a Rem 700 action and YOU have a LONG CHAMBER and SIZING DIE problem.

My rifle chamber is 0.025" LONGER than SAAMI specs, BUT it is correct for the REAMER and HEADSPACE guage that was used. It also has a LONG throat.

I solved what was exactly the same problem you have, by using Redding Competition Shell Holders and ordering a 0.020" oversize shell holder as soon as they came out.

Prior to the Redding shell holders being produced, I just turned out the resizing die and used a 35 cal button to form the false shoulder, then sized down until the case was a tight fit in the chamber and ALSO loaded the bullet out into the lands about 0.025" so the case was firmly pushed back against the bolt head, used now discontinued 270 gr Speer bullets(originally what the rifle was throated for) then firefomed with a low end load of 4895.

Claw extractors DON'T always hold a case back against the bolt head...I know this for a fact. I know...they are supposed to, but that depends on the gap between the claw, the bolt face AND the rim thickness

A lot of headspace problems can be traced to chamber/sizing die tolerance alowances, because ALL pieces and parts have a range of tolerance fitments...chambers around 0.008", cases and dies similar and if you stack those tolerances up the wrong way you can have a built in mess up even though ALL the components follow SAAMI specs.

I have also used 30-06, 270, 280, 35 Whelen, and commercial 338-06 to make cases for this rifle.

My advice is to use 270 or 280 brass initially because the shoulder is farther forward and starts you out with a "false shoulder" corrected by pushing the shoulder BACK rather than having to stretch the shoulder forward.

I also strongly suggest by yourself a Stoney or Hornady Headspace comparator so once you establish the correct headspace you can always remeasure ANY case to see if you are maintaining headspace or for use with measureing ANY other rifle case.

First run the sizing die down until it contacts the top of the shell holder at the top of the press stroke...the turn it down an additional two turns. You want ALL the slop, play, break-over, etc., removed at the top of the press stroke.

Then size two cases, FIRMLY. These cases are control cases...save them for measurement later.

Then...Turn OUT your sizing die at least two-three turns...use a 35 cal sizing button to open up the neck on as many cases as you want to start with...I usually do 100, then remove the button all together and start slowly sizing down one cases until the bolt closes really snug on it. Then lock the sizing die ring snugly.

Use a fireforming load of 15 gr bullseye under a full case of cornmeal, grits, etc...point the rifle up about a 75° angle, make sure to point the rifle down wind or you will get a shower of cook cereal...the fire it.

This should give you a perfectly chamber formed case. Do at least 5 initially. Once all these cases are functionally correct..they all fit your chamber now...you can do the others or wait untill later.

I have use this proceedure hundreds of times with the 338-06 and many other wildcats and standard cartridges. It always works.

Once the case is dimensionally correct to the chamber you can then use one case to measure the difference between the first two sized cases and the fireformed cases with the Stoney headspace comparator.

The difference in the measurements is the amount of "headspace". As I said, mine was over 0.020" so I use a 0.020" comp shell holder with the sizer die setup as I indicated above...NO SLOP in the press stroke. Then just order a Redding Comp shell holder 0.002-0.005" shoulder setback...whatever is comfortable for you...for a hunting rifle I suggest 0.005"...for a varminter, 0.002" is plenty.

My rifle shoots 5 rounds of Hornady 225 SP into a quarter size hole consistently. I can get away with a slightly heavier charge of IMR4320 because of the long throat. It is very persnickety about what other bullet it likes...as far as accuracy is concerned, but will shoot most into 2" without much fussing about.

I have loaded and fired one case 10 times using my "standard" 225gr Hornady/IMR 4320 load...several times with several different case brands and original caliber designations...without any signs of pressure or problems. The cases could have been reloaded more times but 10 is my limit for this size cartridge.

I'm surprised no one suggested doing this procedure while you were working through all steps you already did.

Or at least suggested you seat the bullet out far enough to jam the case back against the bolthead and fire off a beginning load to form the case to the chamber.

Or did I miss something????

In any event...

Luck on solving your problem.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
My advice is to use 270 or 280 brass initially because the shoulder is farther forward and starts you out with a "false shoulder" corrected by pushing the shoulder BACK rather than having to stretch the shoulder forward.

Excellent post, but a point of clarification. Only the 280 case has a greater shoulder height. The 270 and 30-06 are the same.