You can shoot it out quicker with SUPER HOT loads.

Gerard, to clear up a point, if one were measuring the twist of a bench gun, I am sure he would want to know the twist to at least four places past the decimal. However, for a hunting rifle, a used hunting rifle at that, I think you'll agree that's a bit much and the "jag and rag", as you put it, will do nicely.

This thread has been very entertaining....

70rounds?

I don't think anyone has ever claimed a 70round barrel life for a 7mmRem Mag before, nor for that matter for a 257weatherby(which a few might not have argued)
or a 30-338weatherby, which have a FAR more deserved reputation of eating barrels.

As for the little child posting 70rounds is it for a 7mmRemMag?

Aren't you up past your bed time?

AD

Beeman,
Offhand, I recall four hunting rifles that were brought to me in the last three years for troubleshooting, because the owners had spent a lot of money trying all sorts of bullets with dismal results. These guys wasted a lot of money trying to find a load that would give the results they wanted. Count the 15 or 20 packs of bullets, the powder and primers, time wasted and, most importantly, count the animals lost and paid for. Two of them, or their gunsmiths, measured with jag and rag and they were wrong. Two assumed that the barrel manufacturer would not get it wrong and stated confidently that the twist "must be" on spec. Two rifles were switched to the correct length bullet and two were rebarreled (they were that far off). Now they shoot accurately and game falls over when they hit them. Measuring with a jag and rag can be off by as much as 2" and that is like shootaway who measures the bore diameter of his 300WM barrels with a pencil.

Maybe we ought to list all the production problems that might occur.When I was in gunsmithing school one instructor hated Winchester Why ? When he was in the army giving a demonstration for vips the brand new Win barrel he installed on the machine gun was chambered but not bored out ! Wrong twist, wrong bore dia, bore not concentric with barrel,wrong chamber, loose barrel thread.Loose sights , scope mounts,scope problems. For ammo , mixed ammo [280 Rem in box marked 30-06], Wrong headstamp [264 marked 7mm] ,wrong bullet dia in case, etc. While we would like a new gun to be perfect ,Mr Murphy sometimes sneaks onto the production line !!

Well happy horse shit !. What happened to the New Guy with the key holing problem ?. I for one always like to give follow up reports , so Everybody knows what happened or is going on .

I don't care about testosterone matches or who or who wasn't correct . I like to file the info in the brain vault for reference if it should ever be needed .

Shot straight Know Your target . ...

Sorry,
I didn't mean to disappear I've just been waiting for the weekend to retackle this issue. I've got the barrel squeaky clean and per the jag and rag method the twist seems to be about 9.5 as the factory claims. My intent is to buy a box of 140 grainers and see what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by Kedron:
Sorry,
I didn't mean to disappear I've just been waiting for the weekend to retackle this issue. I've got the barrel squeaky clean and per the jag and rag method the twist seems to be about 9.5 as the factory claims. My intent is to buy a box of 140 grainers and see what happens.

You may have something as bizarre as a .300WM barrel stamped 7mm 0r .264 ammo in a 7mm box. Get out the calipers before you buy ammo.
Cerro-Safe( link ) the chamber and leade.(or have a 'smith) That will tell you a lot.

Where did you get the ammo for this Savage in the first place ?.

Do you have an accurate means in which to measure the bore ?. If so do it. As Big Nate suggested .

Now that you have cleaned the bore .
Did you see crisp rifling all the way from the chamber lead too the end of the bore ?.

Did you happen to inspect the previously fired cases ?. Anything look odd ?.

I personally would do everything except buy Ammo !.
140 or 175 or even 100 grain projectiles wouldn't solve the key hole issue . I can assure you of that !.

I believe you either have a severely worn barrel or possibly the wrong barrel . I would measure first I suspect it's worn rather than incorrect .
Shoot straight know your target . ...

If the rifling "looks" OK, then I'd get the barrel slugged. Maybe it's almost a .30 cal? Are you able to retrieve a bullet or two? If so, what does the rifling impressions on the bullet look like?

I think that's really great, Gerard. If possible, have a nice day.

Ok Shootaway,
How long does the barrel in an 7MM STW last?
1 shot or two?

BTW.....My Ruger #1S in 7MM Mag. has got about 70 rounds through it and most of the bluing is still in the bore. By my estimate it needs about 70 more just to get it broken in.

Another BTW

In 1970 Thomas Treinen USN, won the Wimbledon Cup (1000 yards any sights) with a score of 100 - 20V + 12V. That is 32 straight V ring shots with a 7MM Rem. Magnum.

Wimbledon Results

Look it up yourself.

ireload2(nice name),remember I said HOT hunting loads.7mmSTW,30 to 40 hot loads and shes a goner.Did you hear the rumer about gunshops selling them with an extra barrel inluded?

For what it's worth, I have right here in my hot little hand a box of early 1950's vintage 7mm Nosler Partition bullets, semi-spitzer, 175gr. The unopened red box has Nosler's Ashland, Oregon address. It is marked on the bottom, "Recommended For 10 Twist Barrels".

Not that personal experience appears to have much credence in this thread, one of my custom 7mm RMag rifles, built for me 1972, has well over a thousand rounds through its Douglas barrel. If I use my imagination I can see the beginnings of throat erosion - rounded lands - just ahead of the leade. This rifle has a 10" twist barrel. It has never shot 175s as well as lighter weights, groups with the 175 Nosler Partition running about 1.25" at a hundred yards.

An older rifle by the same maker, also having a 10" twist Douglas barrel with chamber from the same reamer, was obtained by me in as-new, unfired condition just a few years ago. It has no more than 100 -150 rounds through it. However, with the same loads used in the newer (older to me) rifle it shoots both 160s and 175 Noslers consistently around an inch at 100 yards. (140gr Accubond shoot thumbnail-sized groups from this rifle.)

For a perhaps more authoritative account of 7mm RMag longevity, see an article in the current issue of Shooting Times by Layne Simpson. In it he recounts his exploits with his 40 year-old Remington 700 7mm RMag. Clearly, his imagination must be working overtime too.

Warren Page hauled his old 7mm Mashburn Magnum to nearly every corner of the globe or 20 years or so, accounting for several hundred trophies in the process. Page, a benchrest accuracy enthusiast, was never heard to complain about the precision of "Old Betsy". That rifle still exists - there's an article about in on this site somewhere. According to the received wisdom of this thread, its barrel must be shot out to about 70 caliber by now. Perhaps the present owner could be induced to shoot a couple of groups with it, just to confirm how it does.

quote:

7mmSTW,30 to 40 hot loads and shes a goner.

Nonsense - Doesn't get much hotter than 3750fps and this one has shot many more than that.

quote:

Did you hear the rumer

As you say yourself, it is just that, a rumour. You should be more responsible than furthering unsubstantiated rumour.

Gerard,I am not surprised that you sell bullets and don't know much about shooting and barrels.Perhaps by listening to what I say you will awaken and find some motivation to get out there and shoot with a desire to become a shooter.On this subject,the only nonsense is yours and from those that see rifles only as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

is montreal the name of a mental institution?
i would be interested to see the projectile. if you can shoot into some media. wet news papers etc even sand or dirt will do. to colect the projectile and see if there is even rifling marks around the bullet. i cant see that the lenth of the proj. will cause it to come out sideways? as it has to be doing if you are keyholing at 10yrds. the rifleing marks will tell a story in my book.
greg

I had an Arisaka type 38 years ago and umm i dont know what was happening with it? but bullets [6.5] went anywhich way throught the target sideways etc ! once !it had a perfect bullet hole throught the target [which it was lucky to hit ,he he ] and then there was a bullet jacket stuck in the front of the target to the right of the bullet hole ????? ? hmmm it was ''minute of fruit box'' at 50 yards !it you can work that out your a better man than me Gunga Din !

quote:

don't know much about shooting and barrels

quote:

find some motivation to get out there and shoot with a desire to become a shooter

shootaway,
You are funny.
Let's see now. I have been hunting since 1958. Started gunsmithing professionally in 1979 and had a gun shop as well until 2004. The gunsmiths register reflects more than 4000 firearms that I worked on (and test fired after repair). I have taught several hundred people to reload and organised and accompanied hunting outings for many more than that number. I took part in competition shooting from 1976 to 1996 (shot for the provincial team for 8 years), taught defensive shooting from 1983 to 2004 and have reloaded all my own ammo in 20 or more calibers for the last 30 years. I have designed and manufactured bullets from .204" to .577" passably well since 1993. I have not kept exact records but I reckon I must have shot considerably more than a thousand head of game and witnessed the shooting of double or three times that.

Naaah, you are right. I am short on shooting experience and need to work on becoming better at it. Thanks for the motivation.

TALENT does not come from experience but from DESIRE.

You are correct, and your point is?

I have stated my case.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

don't know much about shooting and barrels

quote:

find some motivation to get out there and shoot with a desire to become a shooter

shootaway,
You are funny.
Let's see now. I have been hunting since 1958. Started gunsmithing professionally in 1979 and had a gun shop as well until 2004. The gunsmiths register reflects more than 4000 firearms that I worked on (and test fired after repair). I have taught several hundred people to reload and organised and accompanied hunting outings for many more than that number. I took part in competition shooting from 1976 to 1996 (shot for the provincial team for 8 years), taught defensive shooting from 1983 to 2004 and have reloaded all my own ammo in 20 or more calibers for the last 30 years. I have designed and manufactured bullets from .204" to .577" passably well since 1993. I have not kept exact records but I reckon I must have shot considerably more than a thousand head of game and witnessed the shooting of double or three times that.

Naaah, you are right. I am short on shooting experience and need to work on becoming better at it. Thanks for the motivation.

Gerard, only a complete moron (make that "in"-complete moron) would believe that any commercial cartridge out there would ruin a barrel in 70 rounds. No-one would buy it.

I think the best one I've heard of takes 500-800 rounds to wash away the throat section, depending on how hot the barrel is allowed to get during the shooting.

I truly believe "shoot away" is just trying to provoke us with his inane commentary.......

He's probably some anti-gun liberal type, the likes of Chuck Schumer, Dufus Bloomberg, etc.

El Deguello,I am a TRUE conservative.Maybe you are the Liberal you THINK others to be?

Now Boys , Boys . Shut UP !. Thank You !. Those of us who have really shot weapons , knows about how long they will function and accurately function .

It still has not resolved the key holing problem .

Right wrong or other wise I would like to hear the final verdict as to the cause .

It has nothing to do with Ego simply curious as what caused it .

( On that Arisaka ) Don't lose sleep over that !. I have one that shoots around corners or might if I were foolish enough to fire it .

The other one I own is a piece of shit !. I never thought much of them and only have a couple because of my collection !.

Shoot straight know Your Target . ...

Shooting => mental institution ? Absolutely ! In NY the famous Creedmore range became a mental institution !

I slugged the bore today and it measured .284" I then cleaned the barrel and shot some factory 150 grain bullets through it. The groups weren't stellar for 50 yds but at least they were groups and not shotgun patterns. The holes in the target were not completely oblong like last time but the back board tore up the paper with splinters and made it hard to get a good feel for what the bullet might have been doing. Some of the holes still appeared a little oval. I think I need to take a closer look at the twist.

quote:

Originally posted by Kedron:
I slugged the bore today and it measured .284" I then cleaned the barrel and shot some factory 150 grain bullets through it. The groups weren't stellar for 50 yds but at least they were groups and not shotgun patterns. The holes in the target were not completely oblong like last time but the back board tore up the paper with splinters and made it hard to get a good feel for what the bullet might have been doing. Some of the holes still appeared a little oval. I think I need to take a closer look at the twist.

Too bad you live so damn far away! I'd sure like to put a few rounds thru that rifle, at 100 and 200 yards........ If it has strong rifling, a twist of 1/9.5 or 1/10, is clean as a whistle and is .284" in the grooves, it must be some extraterrestrial influence then to keep 150-grain bullets from flying point-on!

Or Leprechauns or Gremlins. Have you tried peeing down the barrel? Our ancestors used to get evil spirits out of their muzzleloaders this way!

That isn't going to help anything ( Twist ) . At that short of a distance there should be no key holing what's so ever . 500 Yd.and beyond I will buy into that twist scenario as a possible problem .

Where did you slug the bore ?.

Fouling a bore is better for grouping than a clean bore .

I try to fire at least # 1-3 shots before shooting any groups .

You have examined the chamber and throat area ?.

What happens when you fire a round eject it , then try to place it back in the chamber ?. Does it go or will it cycle with the bolt ?.

If what you say about the barrel slugging at .284 then I suspect the chamber is misaligned to the bore or Visa Versa !.

In all the years I've been shooting only one weapon key holed .That's because the wrong Dia. projectile was being used in that particular weapon . Called for a .323 and the fellow who was shooting it used .318 Dia. out of it .

It's just not something that happens with a decent bore and proper chamber . Not every weapon shoots sub MOA but key holing is unacceptable under any circumstance !.

Shoot Straight know your Target . ...

quote:

At that short of a distance there should be no key holing what's so ever . 500 Yd.and beyond I will buy into that twist scenario as a possible problem .

It is the other way around. If twist is too slow for the bullet length, it is more likely to keyhole at close range. Stability increases as distance increases. If stability increases, there is less tendency to keyhole. This is not my opinion, see the Lilja website:

"when the stability level is less than about 1.3-1.5 (a value that describes stability; less than 1 is unstable), the first yaw that the bullet makes upon leaving the barrel increases dramatically. This first yaw and its size are directly related to bullet grouping ability."

"The down-range bullet therefore is more stable than it was at the muzzle. The only exception to this occurs when the bullet passes through the speed of sound. At that velocity, about 1180 fps, it may lose stability."

One time I experimented with some 63 grain .224 bullets using sabots in a 300 H&H.

It was a learning thing.....I chrono'd them at 4,400'/sec using (I forget the actual load) something like 83 grains of IMR3031......a shovel full for sure!

Darn things spun in the sabot (I assumed) as they keyholed at 10 yards!

Can you shoot one into some wet newspaper? I'd like to see the bullet and it's rifling. This is a neat mystery to solve!

Gerard ; You are correct !. how ever it works the other way as well . My point was simply ,key holing of any caliber at that short of distance has no bearing on twist rate . With in reason !!.

If one took a 100 grain .224 projectile and put it through a twist of say 1-24 I might be inclined to have an open mind .

A 7 MM Rem Mag handles 100 - 180 projectiles with 1-8 through 1-10 twist which is normal .

So when the New fella says it's .284 " bore and 150 grain stock boys are flopping around . Something isn't right .

We've all been around the block more than once !.
Bore , barrel , Chamber is crooked some where some how !. Least wise that's my opinion which is worth $0.0025 in most cases .

I have several weapons 3 of which are 7 MM Mags

I've never had anything like this happen with factory or hand loads . Some shoot better than others sure , groups are much better from my old Mauser 3000L than any of my other 7's . None key hole . I've only seen a couple of really WORN OUT bores key hole at short distances . I do mean WORN OUT !. Excess of 5 on military gauge . Non serviceable .

We've all seen weapons that wouldn't group even new out of the box . But never key hole , some thing is terribly wrong from the get go !.

Shoot straight know your target . ...

Kedron.......I've never shot a big bore rifle at 10 yards....Even while hunting. May be your range is too short. Try it at 200 yds.
Shootaway apparently doesn't have AOL... Otherwise he could look to the toolbar at the top of his screen, and find the "sign off" icon, and klick on it..........Grant.

quote:

Fouling a bore is better for grouping than a clean bore.

I try to fire at least # 1-3 shots before shooting any groups.

Here's another thing that can work either way. Some rifles do indeed shoot better fouled. But there are also some that don't.

Anothert thing. if a bullet is UNDERSTABILIZED due to not spinning fast enough to fly straight, this condition is NOT going to improve further downrange! Their rotational velocity cannot increase after they leave the muzzle! Don't confuse this situation with bullets that are orbiting the line of bore as they move downrange, then "go to sleep" with their center of gravity on the line of bore as their velocity drops, further away from the muzzle. Such bullets have adequate spin throughout their travel.

El Deguello ; Well put !.

It's not going to improve down range !. Something is wrong from the get go . Twist stability will show further away from the muzzle rather than closer to it . If a projectile comes out of the bore unstable to begin with NO AMOUNT of twist will cure this condition !. That was my point .

Do we all agree that 7 MM mags do a fair job with 100 - 180 grain projectiles with reasonable twist rates of say 1-7 1-12 being as most are 1-8- 1-10 . least wise on mine they are .

I stand by my original statement Bore or Chamber is crooked if the bore slugs out to what the New Guy says it does . .284 . I still want to know Where and how he slugged the bore and with what .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

gged the bore today and it measured .284" I then cleaned the barrel and shot some factory 150 grain bullets through it. The groups weren't stellar for 50 yds but at least they were groups and not shotgun patterns. The holes in the target were not completely oblong like last time but the back board tore up the paper with splinters and made it hard to get a good feel for what the bullet might have been doing. Some of the holes still appeared a little oval. I think I need to take a closer look at the twist.

My first thought was that the bullets are smaller than the bore, so the bullets aren't gettinga stabilizing twist at all. At first I was thinking that maybe the barrel was 'bored out' without the original stamp being changed. However, if you've rule that out then it seems as though it must be the rounds you're firing. With a belted magnum, it is 'easier' to fire the wrong rounds, since it headspaces on the belt. Any chance that these are not 7mm rounds that you're firing?

Hmmm, I finally found out how to kill your barrel after 70 rounds, fire 69, stick the muzzle in the mud, load a round, pull the trigger, pull the metal fragments from your head, and you too will have a 70 rd barrel.

Seriously though, with all the test K has done, I would wonder about a bad batch of bullets, if the bullet is not ballanced, it will spin off access and leave oval holes at short range. I would try a different batch and see. If that doesn't help, I would check the barrel for a bad bend.

John

quote:

Hmmm, I finally found out how to kill your barrel after 70 rounds, fire 69, stick the muzzle in the mud, load a round, pull the trigger, pull the metal fragments from your head, and you too will have a 70 rd barrel.

You guys should really be nicer to Shootaway. Afterall, there's gotta be a gunsmith or gun store that is making a mint off of this rube! You wouldn't want to put them out of a good living by educating him to the actual facts. How will they ever find another guy that wants a re-barrel or a new rifle every fourth box of ammo?????????

70 rounds....that's rich.

Hey wait a minute, I think he's right! I just looked down the barrel of a 7mm Mag in my gun case, and it _is_ missing rifling for the first 2 or 3 inches!!! Oh, crap, yah....that's the chamber.


Sorry for the hijack...its just really hard not to....

Cheers,
Canuck

shootaway is a turnip. Also the poster child of why siblings shouldn't have offspring. Well he's more like the aftermath of interbreeding and fetal acohol syndrome!