I think pretty much everyone here is old enough to remember when "cup 'n core" bullets were used by almost all of us, for both target and hunting with our rifles. For the last 10-20 years though, there's been a fearsome lot of attention given to the "boutique" super-premium bullets.

So, I am really curious as to how deeply all that "hype" has bitten into the shooter's market place.

Have hunters of North American game opted to put aside cup 'n core bullets for their shooting, or is that just a greenie-driven, gun rag supported Yuppie thing? Let's see if we can find out.....

Please post your thoughts and comments as well as filling our the poll.......

Question:
What kind of bullets do you actually use the most in your daily shooting, for targets ,and for hunting?

Choices:
I have chosen to shoot the premium bullets almost exclusively, because of their better performance.
I shoot the premium bullets when actuallyhunting, but not for most of my shooting.
I use premium bullets because I have to, due to legal changes already here or almost here.
I find the old C'nC bullets just fine and still use them for pretty much everything.
I am a practical meat hunter. I shoot C'nC cause I think they do well enough and cost much less.

Question:
What kind of shooting do you MAINLY do?

Choices:
I shoot for accuracy, from a rest.
I hunt NA game smaller than deer.
I hunt NA game of deer size or larger.
I hunt NA game where some may bite back.
I shoot games such as Hi-power, Silhouette, etc.

 

One really needs to separate varmint hunting from big game in this poll.

I shoot CnC bullets at varmints and deer mostly but shoot premiums at targets larger than deer.

And are target bullets considered premium?

i shoot nosler partitions. don't know if you classify them as "premiums.

cup and core for practice and deer. Premium for game larger than deer.

I'm pretty much a cup & core fan up to 2,700 fps.

Although for Africa (when I do go) it will be Partitions for Plains Game in my .375 and ultimately Barnes for Buff.

Tyler-

No, target bullets are not "premium" in the sense of this poll. Target bullets may be premium in the degree of care put into their manufacture, but they are still of cup 'n core construction...or type, kind, whatever. That is, they are one jacket cup and one lead alloy core.

LBGuy - Nosler Partitions ARE premium for this poll because they are a complex cup (actually formed to make two cups, fore & aft), and two cores.

Also, comments such as "Type X for this, Type Y for that" are exactly the sort of things we are looking to learn through this poll.

Thanks to everyone so far.

My experience is mixed. I use both Barnes X and the old c&p Speer SPSP in my .300. I prefer Nosler Partition in .270 when I hunt in big bear country for purely safety reasons - boat tails don't impress big bears.

Nosler Partition 130gn 270w Hornady A-Max 162gn 7mm WSM

When I shoot at an animal larger than a Deer, it is with a premium bullet. Deer sized game may get the Nosler Ballistic Tip instead of the Partition for instance. Animals larger than Deer will get the most accurate premium bullet my rifles shoots, and 90% of the time it is the North Fork bullet. Working up loads and shooting weekly I will use the same weight non premium bullet, then when the load is close I will finish it with the premium bullet to hunt with. Case in point----- .270 WSM working up load I will use 130 grain Nosler Solidbase (I bought 20 sacs of cosmetic blems very cheap), after several shooting sessions and getting the load close I will perfect it with the North Fork from my small horde retained before Mike went out of business. This is my Mule Deer load, for whitetails I will simply use the solid base. The difference is I might run into Mr. Elk while in Mule Deer country. Good shooting

The second question leaves out varmint shooting which is most of my live animal shooting.

When using fast cartridges like 22-250,6mm-.270 IMP and 25-06 IMP on deer size game I found ,at that time , the Barnes' original bullets never failed . Standard cup and core were a mixed bag, mostly NO GOOD.
Later in life I learned that that most big game designed Cup and Core bullets of ""adequate weight"" were just fine if used at 2800 fps or somewhat less as a rule.
The designer bullets come well into play in a number of categories; game that can harm or kill,truely high velocity projectiles > 3000fps.. Short necked, small throated, modest capacity cases also dictate premo bullets at times. When the cartridge design is such that the heavey for caliber bullets which would normally give good expansion combined with needed penetration can only be used if sacraficing powder capacity, than the lighter premos at increased velocity well substitute for this deficiency.[cases in point7-08 and .260]
If the question were " Can the cup and core adequately serve the hunters demands?" " the answer is "It has been doing it for many years." The Premium bullets ,however give us a new technology that allows us to enjoy new, different and more sophisticated toys. Necessary? No not really. Fun? Sure you bet. roger

tried the "superbullets" didn't do no more no less than regular type.
went back and i ain't changing.
i even use hunting type bullets for a lot of "target" games.
of course i am not trying to win wimbledon,just league shoots,turkey shoots,that type of stuff.
it's amazing how a bullet will perform within it's velocity window.
did you know a cup and core will shoot through both shoulders of an elk at @ 2800 fps mv?

Been using NP (i'm also not sure what todays premium bullet guys consider Partition) for hunting for years now mid 60's still use some C&C for hunting, all my practice is with a C&C that groups about the same.

I could copy Phurley's post almost word for word except for the type of premium bullets I use.
One thing I have found as I've gotten older, after trying all the latest "boutique" bullets, Core Lokt is still one helluva bullet. Especially since I don't think you have to drive a bullet at some sort of boyhowdylookwhaticando velocity to kill an animal. If your MV is over 2900-3000fps, you need more bullet, not more velocity.

quote:

(i'm also not sure what todays premium bullet guys consider Partition

While a couple folks here do not consider them premium, most of those that use them do!

When it comes to modern high intensity bottleneck cartridges I use NPTs for hunting loads (when available in a weight I want and that are accurate in my rifle) but practice with CnC slugs purchased in bulk.

If the Nosler Partition is not a premium bullet, then I am a Monkeys Uncle. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
The second question leaves out varmint shooting which is most of my live animal shooting.

Frank- The second question does not leave out varmint hunting. If your varmints are deer-sized or larger, there is a response for that. If they are smaller than deer size, there is an answer for that.

Whatever you hunt for is your "game", whether grasshoppers, whales, or anything in between. I guess I could have used the word "prey" instead of "game".


Roger, buddy - To my way of thinking, the old Barnes "Originals" WERE (and still are) Cup 'n Core....one jacket, one lead alloy core. It doesn't really matter that they were made with copper tubing for the jacket. During the war that is all that was available, and even it was darned hard to get. And for many of the odd bullet sizes, there never were any caliber-specific alternative jackets reliably available in the U.S. either. There was no need to change them once drawn jackets became available, even if proper jacket sizes been out there....changing could have required manufacturing adjustments that would not have been worth the effort.

Al I shoot bulk mostly,but i have used the barnes x in several cals.In my 22-250 AI i use Nosler Part because they don't rip apart in my 1 in 9 barrel.I tried them in my 257AI and shot 2 deer and 3 hogs and they ran off like they were stung,looked for hours for them,no luck.So I looked at the ones I had left and they seem to have some problem with the depth of the hollow point.After seeing the animals run off and unable to find them I will not use them again.As a side note the barnes seem to cost to much.Good Luck

I didn't vote as I would need multiple options for both questions.

1) I use Sierra MatchKings for both benchrest and silhouette practice and competitions. I use a mix of Sierra GameKings, Rem. Corelokts and Speer HCs in 30 caliper and under. Use Nosler Partitions my 8mm and 9.3mm.

2) Need an "all the above" answer for question #2.

I have loaded sierras mostly for 30 years with shots in the kill zones equaling a dead animal.

I just loaded accubonds last year for all 4 of the deer I killed in Mo and the elk in New Mexico and liked them very well. I feel they are a value based premium but still are twice the price of sierra.

Actually, i needed to vote for "things that bite back" and "deer and larger", but could only vote for one or the other...

Anyway, when hunting i use NP's, and at least "part" of the reason why is... I work up one "hunting load" for each of my rifles, and that's all i ever use in "that" rifle. SO, my rifles get a hunting load worked up for the biggest baddest animal i will hunt, and i prefer NP's for those kinds of anmimals.

I just don't change loads for the different animals i hunt. I prefer to use ONE load, then i always know where it shoots, no matter what i'm shooting at!

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Have hunters of North American game opted to put aside cup 'n core bullets for their shooting, or is that just a greenie-driven, gun rag supported Yuppie thing? Let's see if we can find out.....

Please post your thoughts and comments as well as filling our the poll.......

I don't get to shoot very many bullets most years, mostly shoot reloaded Noslers, either ballistic tip at the range or partition when hunting. They seem to work nicely in my 7mm magnum, in a 6mm-284, and a 6x45 mm. I have some Sierras and some Hornadys, just don't get around to using them very often.

I really appreciate the comments you guys have been posting. Among other things, they show you are shooters who think out what has to be done to handle individual circumstances, and do it.


As far as the poll goes, the intent was not to have an endless raglist of options. To make the poll even remotely quantifiably useful, one needs to pick the answers which correspond to what he does the MOST of. That may be a tough call for you, but Hell!, for me even deciding what to have for dinner is a tough call. You guys have it easy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fjold:
Roger, buddy - To my way of thinking, the old Barnes "Originals" WERE (and still are) Cup 'n Core....one jacket, one lead alloy core. QUOTE]

We differ a little here, AC. The Barnes' original transended the regular cup and core construction in strength by design, performance and cost. I was working for Colorado wages at the time. It was turely a first class, top shelf,premium hunting bullet.
Perhaps our definition of premium is a little divergant. A rose by any other name. roger

Roger -

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. They were preumium in price, but to be honest they weren't any too great in many other ways. I used them in the '50s, and have done so ever since for some applications.

They actually were available in two thicknesses of tubing, as I'm sure you recall, which meant a guy could buy the heavier .049" jacket wall bullets if he wanted to try to reduce mushrooming.

BUT my experience was that even out of my double rifles, shooting 500 grain bullets as slow as 1,900+ fps, the Barnes bullets shed their cores pretty much every shot. They were as bad for that as most C'nC factory bullets. And that included the Barnes solids. Kynoch's solids, which were also CnC, but with coated steel jackets, were much better. Unfortunately, they weren't available as components during and after the war.

For retaining weight amonst the CnC stuff, I found the Peters Outer-Belted or the corresponding Remington Inner-Belted (Corelokt) to be better SPs than the Barnes Originals in the calibers where both were available.

Also, the Barnes were definitely not considered by most to be as accurate as the regular CnC factory bullets.

The really big premium features of the Barnes were that a person could get them in heavier weights than the factory bullets, and darned near any diameter was available on request.

But, whatever their pluses or minuses, their construction was still straight CnC...one cup made by closing one end of a piece of tubing to form the base or nose (depending on whether one ordered SPs or "Solids")...and then one lead-alloy core inserted from the other still open end of the tubing...and finally closing that remaining end of the tube to form the nose in the case of softpoints, or to form the base in the case of solids.

I couldn't vote. I shoot premium bullets almost exclusively - Woodleigh, Hornady, Nosler Partition, Swift. I don't consider any monometal to be a "premium" bullet, especially Barnes.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I prefer Standard Grade bullets with a Lead Core for everything I shoot. I've never had a problem with them, so there is no need to switch to a more expensive bullet just so I can say I'm using them, and for darn sure I don't use Politically Correct Bullets(Expanding Solids).

I do use the original Premium Nosler Partitions when I might have to drive the bullet through a row of Beans or in thick brush. As long as the Game is close to the foilage, and the Partition is heavy enough, they ploy right on through.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Roger -

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. They were preumium in price, but to be honest they weren't any too great in many other ways. I used them in the '50s, and have done so ever since for some applications.

No hard time received. Your experience for two old timers exceeds mine and I accept your comments as gosple. It is interesting how our experiences differed. I used the Barnes' heavey for caliber bullets largely in the 22-250(70gr.) and 6mm x .270 IMP.(115gr.)The jackets if I remember were .032" thick. Recovered a number of the .22s from deer but never failed to completely penetrate with the 6mm with hugh exit wounds.All the mule deer killed droped within 10 ft. of where they were shot
Fred Selected and chambered the barrel on the 6mm.
Can not remember what one of his bullets I used in the 25-06IMP. I never use any Barnes' bullets larger than 25 caliber.Nice thread roger

I didn't vote as none of the statements/questions fit my reasoning.

That said, I shoot two bullets for the 3 rifles I own. Barnes X series bullets and Nosler Partitions because they both shoot very accurately out of my rifles. I know they will perform on the other end as well.

Ken....

I shoot Nosler Partition,Woodleigh & A Square, For hunting But I shoot
Hornady for practice

I only shoot off the bench enough to make sure I am still zeroed, and any more for that, I use the bullets I use when hunting.

Normally all I use are Barnes "X" flat base, but for the past couple of years out of my wifes 257 Roberts I have been using factory loaded 117 grain Remington Core-Locts, simply because a friend gave us over 100 rounds of factory ammo after selling his 257 Roberts.

In my Marlin 1894 44 Rem Mag, I normally use hard cast lead, 245 grain Keith style semi-wadcutters.

Chalk me up as another cup and core user to about 2800 fps and tougher bullets after that. No particular favorite style; whatever was on sale at the time I needed something. In fact, my bullet shelf looks like Emelda Marcos' shoe closet

Im a cnc person also. I also understand when you are hunting critters that might consider you as a snack, bullet failure is not an option. There is a need for premium bullets for a variety of animals. Very few of these are in the USA. JMO

The rifle decides what it likes! so I use both and mostly cup and core for the 223 and 22-250 What ever is cheap bulk for the pistols and revolvers! I find it hard to come up with a choice to vote on since I would need to mark almost all of the choices!

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
The jackets if I remember were .032" thick.

Right on, Roger. Barnes offered two jacket thicknesses on pretty much all of his bullets...you could have either .032" thick jackets or .049" thick ones...whichever you wished.


I'm not at all surprised our experiences varied. I suspect that's one of the reasons we both visit here...to hear about things WE each may not have experienced individually.

I take your stuff pretty much as gospel too...in that I believe everything you say you did or experienced is the actual truth of what really happened in your life.

Sure would be fun to go around again with what we think we know now, wouldn't it? More ,please.

I can make this very easy. I shoot what ever gives me the best accuracy. If it is a plain old relyable hornady that is what i shoot but i shoot for the lungs. If it is an accubond from nosler i shoot for the shoulder same with the partitions. I believe there all good some just a little better than others for construction. Let face it dead is dead, how we get there is GOOD BULLET PLACEMENT. Now personnaly, I like the accubonds for accuracy and bullet construction.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
In fact, my bullet shelf looks like Emelda Marcos' shoe closet

Now that is just plain flat hilarious!!!

I screwed up a little when I said I never used Barnes' bullets over 25 caliber. I used them also in Three 6.5s; Carcano, Swede and What I thought to be at the time the first 6.5x.284.
In all three I used the Barnes 156grain psp. With the first two it was nothing special. Any C&C would have equaled the performance. With the fast twist on the 29 1/2" barrel of the 6.5x.284 it was a totally different story. No 140 gr. conventional C&C bullet would hold together for more than 20 yds. out of the barrel. Comet tails at 12feet and dust at 20 feet as a rule.The Hornady and Norma 160 gr. RNs did better but on game at close range they were iffy. The only bullet that I used that really worked great was th 156gr psp Barnes.
I remember two mule deer kills.The one hit just behind one shoulder and literally came near taking off th shoulder on the opposite side. The other was a doe running hellbent for leather, broad side, 20 feet in front of me. When I opened her up it looked like a granade had gone off inside of her. Everything came out in one jellied mass.The bullet did not exit. Almost forgot that rifle. roger