Ya thats right,, I said Flinch it seams that I am developing one,.. What to do to get rid of it Please Help... Maddog

Get someone to go with you to the range and have them load your weapon with either duds or live
rounds and don't let you know what is in the chamber. If you are anticipating the shot the flinch will become apparent to you when you get to the dud rounds. You will be able to see yourself flinch. Do this for about three to five
sessions of 5 rounds each and you should be smoothed out. Concentrate on your breathing and
smoothe trigger pulling. The shot should come as
a surprise when your mind is right. Practice this
until you don't have to think about it. You didn't say what kind of gun, caliber, trigger etc.
so those things I can't rule out but a heavy trigger pull can lead to flinching as well as heavy recoil and muzzle blast. All those physical
properties can be overcome. One of the main reasons I like to shoot is because I can put everything else out of mind except the target.
Hope this helps. LOL. BLR7

Welcome to the club Maddog!

My first real gun was a 7-3/4 pound(scoped)340 Wby. It's painful to remember but I shot the ground at the feet of a nice buck not 20 yards away. I was so upset that I drove straight to the range and shot over 200 rounds that afternoon. By the time I left the range I was sure that I was a wimp, and would never manage the mighty 340!

Admitting you are developing a flinch is the first step in taming your sub-conscious.

Recoil is cumulative IE., 50 shots 30-06, 20 shots 340Wby, 10 shots .416 Rem. They all equate to the same thing. If you have a gun that's giving you grief shoot it less.

NEVER let a gun hurt you! Shooting it after it has become painful does not make you tougher or help you at all!

There are few guns that will actually damage you. Recoil is a physiological challenge and must be delt with on that level.

With practice and determination I am able to shoot over 50 rounds of 338 Ultra, and shoot a 8 pound 2 oz 416. Rem. very well. I do not flich at these levels.

Don't expect an overnight change! It will take determination, time, and practice, but you will succeed if you really want to!

Best of luck Maddog!

Jamie

Excellent advice.
I don't have a huge amount of experience to share, but there does not seem to be a way around the fact that you've just got to "take it."
I learned more about this in martial arts training. If you're "bracing up" for getting hit, you can't maintain your balance and effectively deal with the situation, so we would sometimes just let ourselves get hit with a glancing blow to remind us we're not made of glass.
Flinching is part of deciding at the last second you don't want what's coming. That's when I relax as much as possible, ease up on the sight picture, and let her loose. BOOM!
This always helps me remember that it isn't really going to hurt me, and my next shot is much more relaxed and focused on the target.
When it hurts, I stop.

MADDOG, what caliber and what rifle are you shooting? Is it too light? Most times, if your rifle is too light, recoil comes back too fast and VOILA! Can't make suggestions without knowing the above.

475guy - It is a 300 ultra that is 8 lbs 2 oz with a 4.5X14X40 scope installed. Is there a way to add weight to the gun for sight in?? My .338 Kicks about the same and I shoot it well.. My son can shoot the 300 RUM into 3/4 inch groups but I am at 3in's + flyers add to that..
Thanks guys.. Maddog

[ 09-01-2003, 01:10: Message edited by: MADDOG ]

That's a stout load in a light rifle. No wonder you're getting a flinch!

To overcome a flinch, you have to believe deep down that whatever noise and recoil the rifle makes, it's not really going to hurt you. You just relax and keep your eyes open and sqeeze steadily--you don't want to know exactly when it will go off. You should be relaxed enough that you aren't reacting and your eyes are still open when the muzzle blast appears in your field of view.

IMO, with a 300UM, and with a flinch already developed, you are going to need some reduced loads to shoot for awhile until you get accustomed to not getting hammered by that rifle. Maybe someone else here could help you with suggested loads. Good rifle shooting is not a question of machismo--it is mental discipline and technique.

I think we will see more of this flincing developing as more and more wannabes go buy the latest ultramagnumsuperboomer because of its ultimate killing power and flat as a board trajectory.

Here's a bit of advice for you. Sell the 300 Ultra Mag piece of useless shit. Go buy a 270 Winchester, 6.5X55, 7X57, 7mm-08 or at the most a 30-06.

Learn to shoot.

I mean REALLY learn to shoot. Learn to read the wind (both by physical observation and by looking at the mirage). Learn to use supported positions, instead of a bipod. Memorize the trajectory of your chosen cartridge based on the zero distance you have selected. Buy a rangefinder. Buy a scope with a ballistic compensating reticle. STALK CLOSER.

You don't need a cartridge that drops 2" at 400 yards when zeroed at 200. What you need to do is learn to estimate distance (that's where the range finder comes in) and then know the drop that you will have to contend with.

Some of us can keep 20 shots within a 24" circle at 600 yards with a puny 223 Remington, from a prone position.

I'd rather be a marksman that hunts than a hunter that shoots.

[ 09-01-2003, 03:04: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

Coupla suggestions: ALWAYS wear ear protection. When you get to the range, fire a few shots offhand, standing up, letting yourself "roll" with the recoil. If it hurts you to do that-get another gun.

Comon Orion, dont be shy, tell us what you REALLY think...!

My tips are as such.

Practice a LOT with an air rifle preferably, a 22lr works nicley too.

If you dont have a light smooth trigger, get one, and SQUEEEZE it as mentioned above. If that is done correctly the flinching "moment" is removed from the act. The squeeze method is very effective and was good enough to become standard US Marine procedure. Utilize it!

Bwana-be,

That is an interesting way to look at it, I like it! It is all about self control and focus..

I have to laugh but agree with most of the posts. Maddog, you're not the only one to ever develop a flinch, it's called anticipation. I learned that back 25 years ago shooting my first .357 pistol. The BLR7 method was a super tool back then, having someone load .38, .357 and empties then watching me shoot. It was actually quite comical the first few times!

Onion hit it on the head though...and Orion, I'm new to the board, but I like your straight forward approach to the subject! While every guy on the face of the earth wants to be macho and we think we know everything there is to know...face the facts...you're scared of recoil and anticipate the shot. If you're not ready to handle heavy recoil yet, don't "force" yourself shot that gun. It will make for an unpleasant time at the range and afield and make you a lousy and dangerous (yes dangerous) shooter. Spend time at the range and learn the gun in question.

Orion, I have a Tikka Sporter 6.5 X 55 that I absolutely love. When I was a mfg rep for Stoeger, one of my clients had a big money customer in Dallas that fell in love with my "baby" and wanted to order one. I trusted this dealer enough to let him borrow my gun and take his customer with him on a hunt. Long story short, the customer made a kill, with a nice, small hole. The dealer made a kill also, but his was with a .375. The deer flipped over, blood and hide everywhere. What did the customer decide? He bought a .375 so he knew he could kill something. Was he happy...hell no!! When I saw him later, all he did was complain because he couldn't hit anything and his .375 kicked the snot out of him. I never would try to get his 6.5 after that!

Again MadDog, not taking anything away from your abilities, because I don't know you. But if you are handloading, work up a sensable load and practice, practice, practice! I saw way too many guys at the gun range this weekend for their "yearly" sight-in before deer season begins!!

[ 09-01-2003, 08:23: Message edited by: TBT ]

MADDOG-- I agree with the above suggestion that you load down and start practicing basic techniques again. The easier way to overcome recoil is to 1) Get a GOOD recoil pad on it, also is it the proper LOP for you? 2) Get some tungsten rods of the right diameter about 1 1/4# so that you can halve it and put it in your buttstock and in your forearm and finally 3) Maybe you should think about Magnaporting the light gun.

Well shucks! I was hoping someone wanted one and I was going to offer mine FOR FREE. derf

DERF, is your 300 RUM a lemon? If it's free, I might be persuaded to maybe take it off your hands. It would be good trading material.

What worked for me was to go back to a scoped bolt action 22 rimfire. Every shot you need to CONCENTRATE on the trigger breaking without you blinking and follow through like you are watching the bullet into the target. It is not the number of shots you shoot but the quality of the entire process. Stay away from your "big rifle" for a while and if possible when you shoot it a little at a time stay OFF the bench shoot sitting or kneeling or even standing.

Good Hunting, "Z"

A lot of times I see shooters at the local range shooting from the bench in very poor shooting positions. Meaning, our range has seats that are adjustable in height. Most shooters have the seat high enough they are all bent over when shooting the rifle off of sandbags, almost like they are shooting from a semi-prone position. This does not allow them to "roll" with the recoil. Their shoulder takes the entire force and disapates it to their body.

Make sure you are sitting with your back mostly straight up and the rifle in the pocket of your shoulder. If you are shooting in warm weather, use some padding, don't go shooting in a T-shirt with a kicksenhardloudenboomer and not expect to "feel it". I use a knee pad under my T-shirt when shooting on warm days or I will put on a shooting coat from when I used to shoot in competition.

Hope these suggestions help.

The only thing I might add is bench technique. When we shoot .223's etc from the bench we try to handle the piece as gently as possible with as little physical contact as possible. You can't do that with a boomer. Push your cheek firmly into the stock; grab the wrist and pull it firmly into your shoulder; use your left hand to hold the forearm down, tightly against the front rest. Maybe try these techniques at a stand up bench.
While, were one to look up "tact" in the dictionary, he would not find Orion's picture, he does make some good points. In fact, there are many good suggestions made. Its apparent that many of us have had first hand experience with flinching.

[ 09-01-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: beemanbeme ]

Would you guys care to share you personal technique of shooting. Breathing, timing, trigger aqueeze. Sometimes it is best to do a complete review..Maby I have forgot a simple step.
Orion: your direct in put is good. But I need to know one thing, are you calling me a wannabe???
Thanks Maddog

OK thanks Orion.......

"you need to CONCENTRATE on the trigger breaking without you blinking and follow through like you are watching the bullet into the target."

I agree with this comment by Zedman. I've learned to accurately shoot my heavier recoiling rifles from the bench this way. I try to focus more on keeping the scope/sights on target and anticipating the trigger break. A shoulder pad and double ear protection (plugs and muffs) helps too.

[ 09-02-2003, 23:05: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

When I sense that I'm flinching I do a few things...

As many have said... don't shoot after it starts hurting. There's some sub-conscious, reptilian, self preservation thing that happens and you can't overcome it. I usually get a headache before my shoulder hurts and I know it's time to stop.

My boys use a PAST pad and I believe that does them worlds of good.. more from a mental than physical perspective... they believe it will make it better... so it does. I'd suggest using one if you don't.

When I start "anticipating" or flinching I shoot my 22-250. It's along the same lines as the previous suggestions of shooting a 22 lr but I KNOW it will shoot MOA groups with about any ammo I have laying around so I can see how I'm progressing. The trigger on my 22-250 is also much better and feels more "real" than the triggers on my 22 lr. A 223 would obviously do the same thing.

I also step up my concentration and try to see the bullet strike the paper through the scope. I can do it with my 22-250 but obviously not with my boomers.

Lastly.. practice. It's far better to go to the range and shoot 10 rounds once a week than to go to the range once a year and shoot 100 or 200 rounds.

Good luck!! This too shall pass...

I know pretty much what the last shot before it's gonna hurt feels like, and I don't shoot any after that one. Some days that comes earlier than others.

One thing to look for is that your eyes are open and you are seeing your sight picture when the gun goes off. If you actually have your eyes open, you will probably see the muzzle flash. Most good quality scopes will also display a very attractive girly picture just as the gun fires. You really have to be watching closely in order to see this.

Beyond that, when you dry fire, practice getting the trigger to break within a couple of seconds of when you start squeezing. If it takes 25 seconds or more, and if you are usually firing an instant after the guy next to you shoots his 300 Magnum, you are torturing yourself. Compress that gradual pressure increase into 5 seconds or less.

Watch the sight picture when you dry fire. The girly pictures only show up with live ammo, but observing the sight picture at the instant the trigger breaks (a.k.a. "calling your shots") is a good habit to get into.

H. C.

P. S.

To answer some questions in your intermediate inquiry:

When I squeeze the trigger, I have the sensation more of applying grip pressure than of pulling with my finger. As my finger is putting rearward pressure on the trigger, most of the forward pressure on the rifle is with the thumb of the same hand. As I am increasing pressure on the trigger, the pressure on my shoulder is not increasing by the same amount. I try and keep that constant. Dry firing will help you find a trigger squeezing technique the doesn't jar the sights when the rifle goes off.

As far as breathing goes, I draw one or two normal breaths and a half breath. I initiate pressure on the trigger while I am drawing the half breath. I don't want to know when the trigger will break, but I don't want to be holding that half breath for 30 seconds. If the wobble in the sight picture is unacceptably large, I go back to breathing normally a couple times, and then I initiate trigger pressure while taking a half breath. Being aware of my breathing helps me to define when I have committed to shoot. When I am not paying attention to my breathing, I tend to give myself all day.

I do not close my throat off to hold in the half breath. I simply stop inhaling.

Sling-supported positions hurt much less than shooting from the bench. I do a lot of prone shooting. My 30-06 hurts without the sling. Doesn't hurt when using a sling. I will put in triple flush-mount studs and get me a Ching Sling some day. In the mean time, I use a military style sling. I have shot several 3" 300 yard groups this way, and I don't expect to do much better off the bench.

That's about all I can think of.

Oh, if you don't have one, an elbow band (Spandex-coated Neoprene, like basketball players wear) will keep your shooting elbow from getting scuffed on the bench. Short of that, putting a folded towel under that elbow helps a lot.

[ 09-03-2003, 02:24: Message edited by: HenryC470 ]

Maddog - First, I admire anyone who is man enough to admit he has the problem. There are a lot of guys out there flinching like hell every shot and are secretly terrified of their rifle...but you'll never make them admit it.

Now, most people think "flinch" is a product of recoil only. You jump because the gun kicks and hurts you.

This isn't true. As I've grown older I've learned a lot of people, myself included, will flinch from NOISE. The muzzle blast can be painful as the dickens, especially to tired old ears. So I have to wear hearing protection for all my shooting now whether I like it or not...or a few shots down the road I'll start ducking my head just to avoid the pain in my eardrums. This sort of flinch has nothing to do with recoil. Not that it matters...but two different causes and two different fixes.

Next reason for flinching, and probably very likely with your particular rifle is a POSITIONAL FLINCH.

You mention "sighting in" and I visualize you at a firing range. Most range benches put the shooter in the position where he is leaning into the gun hard and then braced against a solid bench seat of some sort behind. This position means you are gonna get the FULL dose of recoil. Your body can't "give" with the recoil as it does in normal shooting, so you get slammed.

Example: I can go out and hunt an shoot 30/06 all day long, firing 200-300 rounds. Have done it MANY times in a day. But if I take the same rifle and go flop myself down at a bench on the range.......it's a different story. In this position I'm getting slammed and after about 40 rounds my body thinks the game isn't fun any more.

Point being you and this rifle may do fine in normal shooting positions.

But regardless of the cause, here's the bottom line. Identify the cause and fix it via earplugs or shooting positions etc. If nothing works and your body doesn't get along with this rifle, GET RID OF IT.

It's got NOTHING to do with courage, testosterone, "being a man" or whatever. It's just a natural bodily reaction to a sensation it doesn't like. Fix it or get away from the gun.

Sticking with a bad combination is only going to make things worse until you flinch every time you SEE a gun on TV.

Good luck! And good hunting.

[ 09-05-2003, 04:09: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Wanna know something? One gun I've recently had the biggest problem flinching with is my 10/22, due to disconcerting jar from the bolt slamming back against the action.

Anyhow, do a search on the big bore forum for threads on recoil. I know it has been discussed many times there.

This is what I found helpful for my first big bore, which was a 9# 458 Lott, and I started with full power 500 gr loads. The basics are, first you need to decide if you really want to shoot the gun. Sounds silly, but if you really want to shoot the gun well, and aren't afraid of it, you'll have no problem. Some folks simply don't like deeling with recoil, and don't like bigger guns. If this is your mentality, and there is nothing wrong with it, sell the gun and get something you enjoy shooting. You have to want to shoot the gun numero uno.

The second step is the repetitive training of each shot proving to you that the gun won't hurt you. You achieve this by setting up the gun so it won't hurt you, and only shooting as many shots as you are comfortable shooting at a session. I'm a huge fan of the Past mag recoil shoulder pad. It takes alot of the sting out of shooting powerful rounds.

Make your shooting sessions short 5-10 rounds, and alternate with shooting a 22 rf so that the majority of the time you pull the trigger, there is no recoil. And when you are shooting your 300 ultra, slowly squeeze the trigger so that every time the gun goes off, you are suprised.

Once again, if you don't feel up to shooting more rounds, stop the session right there. For instance today I had 18 rounds to run through my 350 Rigby, but I'd forgotten the Past recoil Pad. I shot two 3 shot groups and called it quites. I didn't flinch once, but the recoil was more then I was up to with just a thin shirt and windbreaker on.

There are many things that will decrease your recoil tollerance, lack of sleep, too much coffee, stress at work or home will all make dealing with recoil much more difficult. If you are relaxed and excited about shooting the gun, your tollerance will be much greater.

One last thing, dryfire the gun at home, it will not only help your recoil tollerance but also aid your accuracy.

BLR is right on! Use the "ball and dummy" exercise!

Couple different IMO's for you.

IMO you can acclimatize to a recoil to the point that it goes away. Just like starting heavier work, you ache for a while until muscles get used to it. In 1968 I was on my navy's rifle team. At 135 pounds the FN used to whollop me. I adapted using on-the-spot shoulder and arm pads made of the bandolier wrappings. Near the end of the summer I realized that I didn't need them anymore. Of course after that I went a couple of years without shooting and ended up recoil-sensitive again.

My second point is rifle and load. Simple physics says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. A 160 grain bullet leaving a nine pound rifle at 2800 fps (for instance) will have the same rearward push no matter what calibre you're using. Recoil should not change much in medium calibres. A .270, 7mm, 7mm-08 or 30-06 shooting the same bullet at the same speed from the same stock and barrel length will kick the same.

You can reduce felt recoil in several ways. I've never felt recoil in the field yet (except with a shotgun when I'm doing a lot of shooting). At the range is when it comes back. I use a PAST (Louisiana outfit) recoil pad over my shirt. Use a butt stock recoil pad as well. Another factor is stock shape. A stock with a lot of drop at the heel will result in the rifle tending to push down and rear, the bbl flies up and, for me anyway, felt recoil is greater. I use straight stocks on my .270 and my .300. The push is straight back intead of multi-directional. Stock weight is also a factor. An ultra light may be a feather to carry, but I've read guys who say too light causes excess movement when you're winded and huffing and puffing, so ultra light is a trade off anyway.

Interesting you should raise this topic, because I was thinking of it today in the context of my computer mouse. All I was trying to do was a simple click. Every time I noticed a mouse arrow movement. I sat here thinking that if just a click moves a mouse that far, no wonder trigger squeeze is so important in shooting. Squeeze, IMO, is where its at. If you discipline your breathing (exhalation) and discipline your finger squeeze, not only can you tell a proper shot by the surprise on firing but when it happens your flinch will, by definition, be gone.

IMO anyway.

Originally posted by Brucey:

quote:

---

Interesting you should raise this topic, because I was thinking of it today in the context of my computer mouse. All I was trying to do was a simple click.

---

Wow, I've never heard of anyone developing a flinch from using their computer mouse.

I think your lifetime of smoking and drinking has finally caught up with you, Brucey. Try getting out of the house and getting some exercise...or better yet just get a job. This will put some muscles on your scrawny frame so "mouse clicks" won't be so stressful for you.

When I go to the range and know I will be shooting some big 'n' nasty, I'0ll always take a light "favourite" to shoot inbetween groups and to allow the barrel to cool.

This let you keep a check on your flinch and relieves the overall effect of the days shooting, I find.

I dont have a degree in the complex and much debated subject of flinching, but I would venture to guess that the greatest cause of it is excessive recoil. A shooters flinch is not much different than the person who draws their hand away from a hot stove, it is a natural reaction and has nothing to do with a persons sexual orientation or prowess as some would like to think, and that stigma only complicates things more. The way I see it, anyone who has never flinched is either mentally slow or sticks to small game.

Anticipation is a bi-product of the reaction and from a shooters standpoint it too only worsens the problem. So what is the cure? First either remove the cause or find a way to reduce it to a tolerable level, (ie; turn down the heat.)
Second, it is important to get back into the proper frame of mind. To re-learn how to shoot as you did before the dreaded flinch. This means that the only thing you should be anticipating is putting a hole in whatever you are aiming at and proper technique can be a great aide here.

Shooting high powered rifles can sometimes be a painfull undertaking, but you cant allow yourself to think about that while you are bearing down on a target if your going to hit the mark.

One thing that makes me flinch right off the bat is a scope that comes too close to my eye when shooting. I'm not talking about needing 8" of eye relief, but my UL Ruger .308 jumps pretty good with hot loads, and the old Bushnell I had would just ever so slightly touch my eyebrow. I couldn't help but develop flinch. I knew it wasn't going to hurt me, but I couldn't help it. I put a Leupold on and solved the problem.

475guy; I was refering to my flinch. Developed a dandy while woring up loads for a 300WM in a Ruger77 several years ago. Took me a long time to get past it even with a 22. Funny though,I never had a problem with sidearms. derf

Lots of interesting comments ... and many very good advice.

What started you flinching?
Was it recoil or sound or fear of either?
When you shoot a group, - do you get any of them to form a group, or is all shots scattered? ... Is it your first shots that form a group and "the others" that scatter...?

In general ... (you've had many a good advice here from these replies)
- Go down in recoil energy/soundblast ... try shooting with a .22 l.r. or maybe a airgun.
A "direct, singlestage - huntingstyle" trigger gives you "less warning" on when the shot comes, - and you can better practice a smooth pull ...
Get a friend to watch you shooting. Let him load your rifle and let him give you the rifle with an empty chamber inbetween - you must not watch him/her load ... Then you will notice how smooth your pull was ... and be able to correct yourself in a more controlled manner.
You need to train this way until you become a consistent shooter again ... Then DO NOT go shooting a hard kicking gun (be it a wrong fitting stock for you or a heavy cartridge or both)... build up your recoilsensitivity, either by low (not too low) loads and light bullets in your rifle - or by starting out with a low/medium recoiling cartridge ...

Good luck to you!

Try reducing your loads down to something a little tamer, for example: I set up some 110gr .308 for my wife to shoot I also loaded them with 10% less powder, they are a blast to shoot, they have about 2-3 times the recoil as a .223. But we also use heavy barreled Rem 700 PSS.

There is still one un-answered question, does the gun FIT you? Does it have the proper length of pull? One other thing, have you put a better recoil pad on it?

I also have a 300 ultra mag and I use a Past Magnum recoil shoulder pad at the range. I also bring a .223 or 22-250 with me to the range shoot these first and practice good habits. After shooting a few with the ultra mag I go back to the varmit guns for a while. This keeps my shooting form in check.

Lots of good insight and advice being shared here. After reading thru this thread I recognized that I had adopted a number of these over the 30 some years of fooling around with mostly Bolt Action rifles from 222's to 375 H&H's and firing 3-4000 rounds a year off the bench. I got away from hunting and shooting about 10 years ago after an upper back injury and unfortunatly believed the Dr when he said I should "probably" never shoot again, and even though I kept a sentimental favorite M70 Roberts I sold the heart of my gun collection.
After feeling much better and shooting the Roberts for 2 years I "graduated" to a 270, then a pig sticker in a lightweight 30/06 and heavy bullets, and finally to a 300 WBY SS Fibermark. The Wby kicked the crap out of me even with the PAST shoulder pad and I could not make the critter shoot straight. The sense of developing a pronounced "Flinch" was embarrassing with the WBY that was proven because I could shoot the Roberts or the Tikka 270 interchangably and SEE the flinch that was growing, but after a couple groups of the lighter calibers the flinch disappeared again. So the idea that YOU might be the cause of the gun not shooting straight is valid, but controllable by shooting a "confidence builder" interchangeably...and having the GUN checked out by a gunsmith to make dead solid certain that there is NOTHING wrong with the gun...as I discovered with that particular WBY that had a bedding problem and would not ever shoot straight as it was. I backed off from the 300 WBY to a 300Wmg Savage 116 SS in "african walnut" and got my shit back together with it 'cause even I can pull 3/4" groups out of it. A litle lighter kick and a different stock shape helped a lot! Learn ..or re-learn ...your trigger and breathing disicplines with your confidence rifle and try the big boomer again...or back off to a lighter recoiling caliber that will do the job you need done.
I used to keep a 20" barreled SAKO 375 H&H carbine in the truck to use to "clear" the surrounding bench's when some hot dog would show up and try to go as close to "full auto" as possible next to me. The little stubby boomer would make the metal roof over the concrete bench's ring like a bell loud eneough to make your teeth hurt. So be aware if other people are also causing you to begin to flinch as well and double up with ear protection, and remember that a lot of sound is transmitted thru the soft bone areas behind your ears as well so make sure the muffs are big enough to cover that area too. Course the first time I shot the carbine at the range the last laugh was on me when I forgot not to cross my feet around the front of the seat post... and wound up getting my ass kicked totally off the seat when the recoil shoved me far enough back to hook my feet on the post and landing on my backside and looking up at the roof!!! I had to learn to shoot in a crouch with my feet behind the seat so I could roll with the recoil and not be "unhorsed". Doh!! ..that thing did more than just make noise. I also have seen a range master, who charged to site in rifles, use a sand bag over his shoulder when he was shooting several hundred rounds a day for tourists and greenhorns so you might try that too to help with the felt recoil. Good Luck!
Ron