I recently acquited a Husqvarna 30-06 with a 20" barrel. It's a peach of a little rifle and quite handy with a Burris 1.75x6 scope. I got it shortly before leaving for an elk hunt and decided it's be ideal for those days in the high country when I didn't want to lug around my longer, heavier 35 Whelen. I'd wanted to develop a load for it using a 180 gr. Nosler Partition, but when I went to order them, most wholesalers were sold out. So, I settled for the 200 gr. Partition.
I sought a load that would approach 2500 fps and after purusing the manuals, decided that Re22 might do the trick. I was able to finally reach 2500, but pressures appeared to be approaching maximum and the load wasn't very accurate, so I backed off a grain or so where my velocity was closer to 2400. At that point I had fired almost a box of bullets, so had to stop my load development. I thought I load a few 180 gr. Rem. SPCL bullets to take along on the hunt "just in case". I used the same load but was dismayed when they chrono'ed at only about 2400 fps.
I have almost no experience with relatively large cartridge cases in short barrels. Is Re22 too slow for such a large case in a short barrel? Does anyone have any firsthand experience with the '06 in a short barrel?
I wound up using my Whelen and the 225 gr. TSX for my bull at a hair over 350 yds. Beautiful performance from this bullet and for this cartridge in my family, the score is now 35 Whelen:4 , Bull elk:0 !

Thanks,
35W

I think you are asking a lot to push a 200 gn bullet through a 20" 30-06 at that velocity. You will get great performance with 180 gn and IMR 4064 or 4350.

shorter barrel, faster powder ..

and elk don't know 100FPS

I have never bought the "shorter barrel faster powder" theme if it means you can get faster bullet speed using a faster powder than the one that drives the same bullet fastest in a long barrel. I am willing to be educated though so chime in.
On the question at hand; load your 200 or 220 Nosler Partition in that little carbine right out of the loading table and pick the one that gives you the good accuracy you are looking for. It will be different than the Whelen load but just as good. I shoot the Whelen quite a lot and love it. I have used the 225 X, the 225 Nosler BT, the 250 Hornady spt., the 250 Hornady RN and now a 245 Glenhill Cast load. I have used a short, long and in-between barreled 30-06 and have found the 180 X, the 180 Cup and Core, the 220 Nosler PT, all good enough with obviously some better. If you want to poke a north bound bull in the southern end as he leaves the timber patch, the 180 X at 2821 fps is hard to beat in the ‘06. Then again the .338 Win Mag with a 275 Speer semi spitzer at around 2450 is too. So is the Whelen with a 225X etc.
Either gun you mention and a “hair over 350 yards” is a great bit of shooting on a bull elk.

dmw

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
shorter barrel, faster powder ..

Dead wrong... whatever powder works well in a 22-24" barrel will work best with a shortened barrel... the idea of using a "fast" powder in a short barrel is an old urban legend.

Load up some H4350 and rock on...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I have never bought the "shorter barrel faster powder" theme if it means you can get faster bullet speed using a faster powder than the one that drives the same bullet fastest in a long barrel. I am willing to be educated though so chime in.
On the question at hand; load your 200 or 220 Nosler Partition in that little carbine right out of the loading table and pick the one that gives you the good accuracy you are looking for. It will be different than the Whelen load but just as good. I shoot the Whelen quite a lot and love it. I have used the 225 X, the 225 Nosler BT, the 250 Hornady spt., the 250 Hornady RN and now a 245 Glenhill Cast load. I have used a short, long and in-between barreled 30-06 and have found the 180 X, the 180 Cup and Core, the 220 Nosler PT, all good enough with obviously some better. If you want to poke a north bound bull in the southern end as he leaves the timber patch, the 180 X at 2821 fps is hard to beat in the ‘06. Then again the .338 Win Mag with a 275 Speer semi spitzer at around 2450 is too. So is the Whelen with a 225X etc.
Either gun you mention and a “hair over 350 yards” is a great bit of shooting on a bull elk.

dmw

quote:

shorter barrel, faster powder ..

and elk don't know 100FPS

You are correct regarding velocity, but if they won't know the difference in 2400 and 2500, then they won't know the difference in 2300 and 2400, or 2200 and 2300...etc. When I set out to develop a load, I usually start with a certain velocity in mind...not necessarily high velocity, and work up to it. If I find a really accurate load before reaching my velocity goal, I'll usually stop there provided the velocity is reasonably close to my original goal.

I'm neutral on the "shorter barrel faster powder" idea, but as I understand burning rates and pressure curves, it really does make sense. I intend to find out over the next several months.

My father and I have been using the Whelen on elk for 6 years now and as I said, we've killed four so far. On the first I used a 225 gr. partition and was very disappointed with it's lack of penetration. After thatbull, I tried the 225 gr. TSX at a little under 2700 fps. The accuracy is astonishing. This year I fired a 3-shot group to confirm the rifles zero and the group measured .313". This is by far the smallest, but this bullet and load rarely, rarely group over 3/4". The picture below is of a 225 gr. TSX that hit a large bull elk square in the anus as he walked away at about 150 yds. (He had already been hit albeit too far back)



The bullet traveled almost the length of the bulls body and was recovered in the right shoulder. The bull I shot this year at long range I hit first in the right shoulder with the bullet exiting the left side at the juncture of the neck and shoulder. Although the bull showed signs of being mortally hit, my personal policy is to shoot until they fall. I fired again as the bull lunged behind a large spruce tree and hit him in the right hind quarter. I found the last shot wasn't necessary as the first made a huge mess of his shoulder and lungs. Never the less, I recovered second bullet from the left rear quarter and it is a carbon copy of the bullet pictured above.
Last year Dad shot a bull with his Whelen at 44 yds. using a Speer 250 gr. SP at a little over 2500 fps. WAY too soft. Bullet was destroyed as was lots of elk meat.

quote:

Either gun you mention and a “hair over 350 yards” is a great bit of shooting on a bull elk.

Thank you. I took up High Power rifle competition last February and it's made a HUGE difference in my shooting ability.

35W

I am no expert but there is a threshold velocity, which must be reached for a particular bullet to perform properly. I would shoot a 30-30 if I wanted 2200 fps for example.

The faster powder for shorter barrel may not be magical on velocity, but it will be magical on muzzle flash. I use the same charges of IMR 4064 with 165gn and sometimes 180 gn and IMR 4350 with 180 gn bullets in all my 30-06 from 20 inch barrel through 24". You will see healthy muzzle flash at dusk and dawn with those loads in the 20 incher. Let me clarify my statement about charges. I use different charges of the two powders and also differnt charges for the different weight bullets. I do not change that data for barrel length is my meaning.

ETA: I like to keep things simple. My primary deer gun has an optimal load with 165 gn Nosler Ballistic Tips; my primary bear gun has an optimal load with 180 gn Nosler Partitions. I shoot those loads, actually the exact same cartridges through all of my 30-06 hunting rifles. They are at least as accurate and powerful as factory offerings. Target guns are another animal as far as loads and cases, etc.

Indeed on the muzzle flash, recoil and target differences for the faster powders. Just not velocity. If it is the fastest in a 24" it will most likely be the fastest in a 20" barrel is my thinking on the rule of "thumb." I like Varget for the short and long '06 barrels for just targets and plinking but when I want a hunting load, I do as Airgun1 does and use the same powder/load in the short that I do in the long. H414 has treated me well when looking for top end hunting performance in the '06 with a 180 Barnes X FB. I am using a Data powder, 85, that replicates Ramshot Hunter, this year for my '06 powder.

35Whelen,
The premium bullets like the X remove the problems you described with the 250
Speer and a 44 yard impact effect. The older Cup and Core will behave markedly different at 44 yards versus 250 yards. The one exception to that in my personal experience was the 275 Speer Semi spitzer in the .338. Even though it still behaved "differently" on short shots, I only ever recovered one. It was shot into the shoulder/spine junction of a large bull elk at 425 yards and broke both shoulders, and 3 or 4 Vertebrae and weighted 212 grains when found by the local butcher. I was shooting it out of a 26" barreled Ruger #1 at 2575 fps. I just dug out the old loading book to look my notes up. All the elk had about silver dollar sized holes all the way through except the one described above. It had the silver dollar hole almost all the way through. Of course that was what Elmer Keith had written about that bullet and that is why I was using it. It shot well too in both .338's I used it in.

i think the slower velocities come partially from the idea that most people immediately make too big a step slower in burn rate with a shorter barrel. theoreticly, you should be able to come real close to typical velocities from a considered normal powder for any given round. you might give up a touch of speed to the fact that you are trying to accellerate the same weight to a given velocity in less time, which takes either more push or more time, both of which you don't have, but the loss should be negligable with the right powder, using all of the barrel and possibly pushing pressures close to the limit. that last part is where you have to watch closely with a faster powder and the main reason most loose more velocity than they figure they should, so the short barerel/faster powder thing gets a bad rap. this of course considers that the barrel isn't rediculously short for the case capacity and/or bore diameter.

When I was a kid I had a 760 carbine in 30-06. That was an 18" barrel, not 20. I thought it was the most powerful thing I ever shot because the muzzle blast with factory loads knocked the snot outta my sinuses. Then I got a chronograph and the bubble popped.

THAT's why you load faster powders. Once I learned a bit about it I managed to maintain a functional velocity with a lot less fanfare by using faster than usual powders. It was a short range proposition anyway, so I was never particularly concerned about velocity. As long as the bullet managed to clear the barrel, it seemed to do the job.

Tiggertate,
I still have the 760 I had as a kid. I cut the 22" barrel down with a hacksaw and then later had it crowned and new front sight put on. I hunt with it from time to time for old times sake. It is very well worn but still shoots very well. It made a wonderful shot on a cow elk at 365 paced in snow, which means approx., yards back in the day, from a rested position in a fresh almost 3 foot snow fall. Basically I sat down and wrapped up in the sling and the snow did the rest of the support. Broke her neck with a 165 Hornady. It broke a lot of my more seasoned and economically viable bolt rifle buddies hearts all the time at the target board too with the 3.5x 10 Leopold mounted to it.
dmw

I use IMR4350 under 180-250 gr bullets in both my '06s but their barrels are 21 and 22 inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
shorter barrel, faster powder ..

Dead wrong... whatever powder works well in a 22-24" barrel will work best with a shortened barrel... the idea of using a "fast" powder in a short barrel is an old urban legend.

Load up some H4350 and rock on...

If Jeff is dead wrong here...
explain to me then, the difference when it is an excepted fact that slower powders do their best with heavier bullets 9 (for caliber)and a longer barrel? or is that also an 'urban' legend?

I support Jeff here...

My choices would be 4064 with a 200 grainers and 3031 with a 180 grainer..

if you think slower powders that work well in longer barrels work best in shorter barrels also....take a shot or two with a old white t shirt or a piece of white cloth about 6 to 12 inches in front of your barrel...

after the shot, see how much powder was thrown out the end of the barrel without being burned...

then compare the same thing using a faster powder...

then try it over your chrony and see what your results are...

I've loaded all manner of powders in 30-06's with 18.5, 19, 21, 22 and 24" barrels... fast powders don't show ANY improvement over the chrony w/ short barrels over the typical mid/slow powders useful with most bullet weights used in the 30-06.

There is a world of powders that will work with the 30-06, but the "ideal" one-powder-powder for the largest variety of bullet weights in the 30-06 remains any stripe of 4350, though faster powders like RL15/Varget, etc are useful with bullets of 150 grains and lighter.

But the idea a faster powder delivers better speeds than a slower powder in short barreled 30-06's (or whatever chambering) is a myth as I've proven to myself many, many times... whatever powder works best with a 24" barrel and a given bullet weight, will work best with the same bullet in an 18.5" barrel...

Well Brad.. if you have proven your point to yourself many times over...

and I have proven my point to myself many times over....

bottom line, it proves the value of these forums..
it shows that folks can have experiences that draw different conclusions and results.... yet everyone gets the benefits of having opposing views to figure out what paths they care to follow...

as for me, I still side with jeff...

Please post your speed/barrel length and powder/charge weights with 180 and 200 grainers. I want to see your actual, hands-on experience and chronograph results.

OR, are your "results" theoretical?

PS, you may want to float your theory to John Barsness over at 24hr... he wrote about the myth of fast powders in short barrels some years back which exactly mirrored my experience with short barreled rifles...

Bottom Line:

Whatever powder works "best" with a given bullet weight in a 24" barrel will work "best" with the same bullet weight in a 19" barrel...

I have owned/loaded for about 12-15 .30-06 rifles since my first in 1967, I currently have a P-64 Fwt, a Browning Safari LE, a matched pair of Brno ZG-47s- and a Mannlicher-Shoenauer carbine, these are all minty and have tubes from 20" to 23.6". I bet I have had a half dozen P-64 Std.s with 24" tubes at least and at least as many 270Ws, with the same variety of barrel lengths.

My experience with these has shown that heavier bullets and slower powders do best in shorter barrels and that Brad is correct here, H-4350 gives me the best overall results with 180 NPs in ALL my barrels, regardless of length. My lovely Mannlicher gives a consistent 2725 fps-mv with 57-4350 under 180 NPs and it is hard to do better for most BC hunting, IMHO.

I have tried RE-22 and H-4831 in various '06 rifles and was not happy with the results, this with 180s. I have a bunch of 200 Nps left over from my .300 H&H rifles, that I have loaded with RE-22, but, have not chronoed them yet. RE-22 is VERY temp. sensitive and not my first choice for general BC use, but, nothing works as well in my .338s and this is in early season.

I had an 18" barrel on a 308WIN that repeatedly gave me the best accuracy with IMR3031 and 180gr bullets. This gun didn't like IMR4895 or IMR4064. It also particularly liked 180gr bullets (practically every flavor). The only lighter bullet it seemed to do as well with were Sierra 165gr Game Kings. 165gr Nosler BTs were twice the group size.

Theories aside that's how it was.

Some guns are more powder and bullet weight finicky than others. That gun sure was. Keep an open mind and try a range of burn rates bullet weights and styles to help you find the best for that gun.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
If Jeff is dead wrong here...
explain to me then, the difference when it is an excepted fact that slower powders do their best with heavier bullets 9 (for caliber)and a longer barrel? or is that also an 'urban' legend?

I support Jeff here...

My choices would be 4064 with a 200 grainers and 3031 with a 180 grainer..

if you think slower powders that work well in longer barrels work best in shorter barrels also....take a shot or two with a old white t shirt or a piece of white cloth about 6 to 12 inches in front of your barrel...

after the shot, see how much powder was thrown out the end of the barrel without being burned...

then compare the same thing using a faster powder...

then try it over your chrony and see what your results are...

Slower powders doing their best with heavy bullets and long barrels, does not mean that they also will not do their 'best' with heavy bullets and short barrels.

Of course, I believe Brad is defining 'best' as in best velocity, as opposed to the cleanliness of T-shirts, least muzzle blast, or even accuracy tendencies.

I have owned, loaded, and chronographed several 30-06's, my favorite being a M70 with a 21" barrel, and 4350 and RL22 will drive 180 grain bullets faster than 4064 or RL15 will. Same results in an 18.5" barreled M77

If I can bring quickload into the argument it says the following. If I ask it to pick the top velocity powders for a 165 grain bullet in a 20" 30-06 it likes medium powders like the 4350's followed by slightly slower powders. The faster ones are down the list.
Here's what the powder burn is according to QL
57 grain load of H4350 under a 165 bullet:
20" barrel total powder buned 97.96%
22" barrel tot p b 98.15%
24" barrel tot p b 98.99%
This is the equivalent of losing about .6 grain of your original charge.....I think that will definately outweigh the performance lack by going to faster powders.

kraky,
4350 isn't quite a slow powder.... and it's not a fast powder, either. a medium burn rate will show less differential from short to long bbl., as well, exactly as the quickload results demonstrate. then there's the 165 gr. bullet, neither light or heavy, either.....
where in cen. wi. do you hail from? i'm about 20 mi. north of wausau.

Husqvarna 4100 carbine .30-06 -

220 gr. Nosler Partition/56.5 gr. RL22/CCI 200 primers/WW brass

200 gr. Nosler Partition/58 gr. RL22/CCI 200 primers/ Norma brass

180 gr. Nosler partition/56.0 gr. IMR 4350/CCI 200 primers/WW brass

These work for me, approach with caution.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
shorter barrel, faster powder ..

Dead wrong... whatever powder works well in a 22-24" barrel will work best with a shortened barrel... the idea of using a "fast" powder in a short barrel is an old urban legend.

Load up some H4350 and rock on...

Brad is dead right!

OK....a re-run with a 180 partition and 60 grains re 22

20" barrel 93.94% burn
22" BARREL 94.97%
24" 95.8 %

and some of the top picked velocity getters for the combo with a 20" barrel are compressed loads of.....
RE22
7828ssc
h4350
re17
hunter
faster powders to the bottom.

OK actual velocity. 180 gn Nosler Partition over 55 gns of IMR 4350, CCI-200 Primer, Winchester case. 20" Win 70 30-06 10 shots Avg 2762fps with extreme spread of 10 fps.