Any thoughts on ammo availability of these two cartridges in the long term? The AI seems to be getting more popular, so I imagine more factory loads will come online. I like the 280AI on paper but don’t want a caliber that will be obsolete one day.

I've had both.
I only own an AI right now.
I cannot help too much with your question but the popularity of the AI is currently such that I don't see it going away.

Zeke

I have a 280. I bought plenty of brass. Should outlast me.
They will always make plenty of 7mm bullets. The 7mm Mauser and 7 mm Mag and 7-08 will see to that.
Even if you do run a bit short on brass -06 brass will always be around.
Roll your own and the supply will not be an issue.
Leo

The 280 Rem and the 280 Rem AI are both nice cartridges. If you're concerned about obsolescence, I'd recommend you go with a 270 or a Rem 7mm Mag. Both of those rounds will be around for a long time, are well proven and bracket the performance of the 280s.

I think you can shoot a 280 in anAck;eye improved chamber.

lf the AI chamber has been cut correctly then you can fire standard .280rem with a slight crush fit and lower pressure as the case blows out to the chamber spec's.
lf you are worried about the demise of one, then the AI chambering would seem to allow you the best of both worlds.

Neither are going anywhere anytime soon.

quote:

If you're concerned about obsolescence, I'd recommend you go with a 270

Given the increase in popularity of monometals, this seem to be a very good thought.

the answer is neither ..
the 7xpress/280 rem had been well on the way to becoming a dodo until the AI was (re?) popularized, even though PO Ackley did it 30 years before - and the AI, which is loaded MUCH hotter than the 280. why? the 7/280 was designed for a much weaker platform and ejecting mechanism, which is why it wasn't just the 7x64 dropped right in.

as others have mentioned, long term, the 270, here in the US, isn't going anywhere, and if a deer can tell the difference is 0.007" (that's a sheet of paper wrapped around a 2700 bullet) .. well, yeah.

while that all may sound damning of the 280, it's not .. this is one of my favorite carts, and the second rifle i built, after my first 358 win, as they made the most sense to me, 100 years ago. though my favorite hunting rifle is in 7x64 (thanks Jeff M)

if you reload, with the 270 and 3006 available, brass isn't an issue for some time

if you don't reload, go 270 and have zero worries about finding ammo in ANY hunting shop

Just an honest question: Does anyone really worry about shooting or losing ammo and having to buy it at the corner store during a hunting trip? (the exception is maybe if you're flying somewhere)

Several of my go-to rifles are wildcats and I have no worries about "ammo availability".

Zeke

I am surprised that anyone with a 280 Remington and especially 280 AI would be a factory ammo user. I see both as calibres for a gun/calibre enthusiast where the rifle/calibre is more than just a means to an end.

If the gun is just a means to an end then as has already been mentioned you have the 270 and 7mm Remington.

I love my .280 Remington. I feel like ammo will always be available for it..at least in my lifetime

That question would have been moot, just a few years ago, and the efficacy of the 280 Ackley would be the same. What I am saying is that, factory availability of any Ackley Improved cartridge should not matter as you can, and for most of them, must, make it yourself. In fact, I didn't even know they made it until a couple years ago, and I have a 280 Ack.
But if you are buying it, well, I recommend you learn to make brass.
270? Have no use for it; no reason for it to ever have been invented. 7mm bore size is far superior in every way.

I agree with the sentiment that the 7mm bore is superior. I have a good friend that grew up reading Jack O'Conner + thinks the 270 hung the moon. We just don't talk about it.

The 270 just doesn’t do it for me. Not sure what it is about it, but I don’t think I could bring myself to buy one. I think it’s at the top of my “least interesting” caliber list.

I’m not actually sure I understand the concern. There’s no shortage of ‘06 brass to resize...and there’s certainly no shortage of quality 7mm bullets out there. Obsolescence seems merely an issue of headstamp.

Moreover, hunting in the USA (*even Alaska) means the ammo travels in the rifle case. So, if the gun arrives on the flight, so does the ammo. Generally speaking, unless you are hunting Africa the ammo question is something of a moot point as well.

Let’s consider the same exact (but different) cartridge: the 7mm SAUM. Same ballistics and case capacity...same terminal performance.

And good luck getting brass or loaded ammo much of the time. Resizing brass isn’t the same option given the parent case, though it might be possible to resize WSM brass.

I guess the point I’m trying to make is that I wouldn’t be too concerned about the .280...on the other hand I bought an AWR in 7mm SAUM - and yeah, that one has me a bit concerned so I do get your perspective.

I hope that helps.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That question would have been moot, just a few years ago, and the efficacy of the 280 Ackley would be the same. What I am saying is that, factory availability of any Ackley Improved cartridge should not matter as you can, and for most of them, must, make it yourself. In fact, I didn't even know they made it until a couple years ago, and I have a 280 Ack.
But if you are buying it, well, I recommend you learn to make brass.
270? Have no use for it; no reason for it to ever have been invented. 7mm bore size is far superior in every way.

aye -- 7x64 forver

I have no idea about Europe but both Americans and Australians seem to favour the 270 bore over 7mm when case capacity is the same.

270 and 280

270 WSM and 7mm WSM

270 Wby and 7mm Wby.

own a factory Kimber 280 AI
with Nosler making brass and ammo
many more days to come for the 280 AI

Strange but nobody can tell me why the 280 beats the 270, there just ain't any reasonable difference...

I had a 257 Ackley and now have a 8mm/06 Acklley IMP..

Ackleys are bloody expensive, just fireforming cases is a chore, and the gain is insignificant in both cases, its there I suppose but to what purpose, and what problems seem to crop up as you get into imp. rounds..expensive dies that probably don't fit the chamber in some cases, opening up the magazine to match the throat and in many cases back to the smith two or three times, these things are prone to wildcats..In my case I'll stick with factory calibers that match the wildcat Im looking at.

the 257 Robts. and the 8mm/06 seem to perform on game with the same results, and they shoot flatter? only in print, but nobody tests them they just accept some scribe telling what a miracle the IMPs are..After much long range testing and a few animal kills, I would not Ackle IMp a rifle again...It fine if that's what you want, but its just not for me anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Strange but nobody can tell me why the 280 beats the 270, there just ain't any reasonable difference...

Ray,

I think the most common reason given is a greater range of higher ballistic coefficient bullet availability in 7mm. Similar deal with the 6.5 mm.

In the case of the 280 AI it has had a reputation for accuracy and also being as fast as the 7mm Rem. I suspect the latter has come about by 280 AI reloads up against 7mm Rem factory stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Strange but nobody can tell me why the 280 beats the 270, there just ain't any reasonable difference...

I had a 257 Ackley and now have a 8mm/06 Acklley IMP..

Ackleys are bloody expensive, just fireforming cases is a chore, and the gain is insignificant in both cases, its there I suppose but to what purpose, and what problems seem to crop up as you get into imp. rounds..expensive dies that probably don't fit the chamber in some cases, opening up the magazine to match the throat and in many cases back to the smith two or three times, these things are prone to wildcats..In my case I'll stick with factory calibers that match the wildcat Im looking at.

the 257 Robts. and the 8mm/06 seem to perform on game with the same results, and they shoot flatter? only in print, but nobody tests them they just accept some scribe telling what a miracle the IMPs are..After much long range testing and a few animal kills, I would not Ackle IMp a rifle again...It fine if that's what you want, but its just not for me anymore.

thats easy
look at all the bullets avalaible in both cals

Buy a 7mm Mag if you are concerned, or hurry up and buy a 280 or 280 AI and then quickly shoot the barrel out of it then all you have to worry about is buying another caliber . Really the 7mm Mag is only a few grains diff in powder charge.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Strange but nobody can tell me why the 280 beats the 270, there just ain't any reasonable difference...

ford or chevy trucks? Apple or Cherry Pie?
That's why there's horse races

But, you are right, there's no reason for the 270 when the 7x64 was doing it all, already

and, of course, as AI carts get MOST of their advantage from high pressure than cart shape (i said most, not all - read PO's writings on the 30/30 AI for HIM saying the same), and the 280 was grossly underloaded to be in the rem-a-chucker rifles, then the gains, which get right to the 7x64, are obvious.

we totally agree, Ray, the 270 was just a weird one that gained a cult following, while the 7x64 is the true savoir.

I suspect Jack O had a hand in the .270 and of course the 270 and 280 are twins, one just has a bigger head and can run 25 FPS faster..

Then there is my favorite,( mostly out of nostalgia,) the 7x57, a little puke of a caliber that's killed every beast in the world at one time or another..

All we ever needed in the first place was a 30-06..I came into this world naked and barefooted with a 30-06 cradled in my hands, and I'll go out in a double brested suit with spurs on my boots and a 30-06 cradled in my hands..

The 280 has a slightly longer body than the 270. Same deal with 7mm WSM and 270 WSM.

In standard factory rifle twist rates the 280 can handle heavier bullets.
And loaded to the same pressures the 280 has a slight edge n velocity. It has a slight bit more volume.
Leo

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think you can shoot a 280 in anAck;eye improved chamber.

What are the effects, if any, on accuracy firing a standard cartridge in an AI chamber vs an AI cartridge?

The .280 AI is an attempt to correct the deficiencies of the .280 Rem, a cartridge which should never have existed. The 7x64 got it right the first time, and several decades earlier. The 7x64 is a worldwide success, just not well known in the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by thirdbite:

What are the effects, if any, on accuracy firing a standard cartridge in an AI chamber vs an AI cartridge?

There have been plenty of bench blokes who got some of their best groups fire forming the 220 Russian to the PPC.

Generally, unless you are into a top accuracy gun accuracy will be good and sometimes even better.

If you were to see a drop in accuracy it would most likely be with Improved calibres where their is a big jump in case capacity such as 22/250, 300 H&H and 375 H&H because the standard load in those calibres will amount to a very backed off load in the much bigger improved chamber.

I have had quite a bit to do with the 358 STA, which is a very Improved 8mm Rem to 35 or a very improved 375 necked to 35. When I say "very improved" from memory the 358 STA is .505 on the shoulder and calibres like 7mm Rem, 300 Win etc are about .480. In necked down 375s and using loads of Varget that were reduced loads accuracy was tops.

The main problem I see from a practical point of view with Improved calibres (and this probably would not apply to the 280 AI) is top loads of the correct powder simply won't fit in the new un fire formed brass. One reason alone I would pick a 22/243 over a 22/250 AI every day of the week. In fact this is a problem with the 358 STA. Top loads won't even go close to fitting a necked down 375. Although in that case we got around that by using necked up 340 Wby new brass.

I have a 280, an "original" 280AI, and the current commercial 280AI.

For some reason the current commercial 280AI is a different length than the original 280AI. At one time the original 280AI was popular enough that you could buy dies for it. Unfortunately those dies cannot be used for the current commercial 280AI unless you only neck size.

I love both the 280 and the 280AI but I do find the AI version does not feed as easily as basic 280 or my 7mm Rem Mag. Not a problem just a jerky feeling as you chamber a round from the magazine.

I still have not seen a legitimate reason wherein there is any difference in the 270 and 280, just the same ole yakity yack jack. So now I need to add to my naughing the bone, I'll include the Rem 7 mag..

BTW, Ive hunted with a Speer 170 gr. bullet in a 270 and it was a great killer, also a 180 gr. 270 at one time but don't remember the brand and never used it on game..but Id bet dollars to donuts it was a dandy and just had to penetrate like the devil..

I have no fault with either cartridge just don't buy the koolaide of separation on paper on in the field, its mutt and Jeff..

quote:

I still have not seen a legitimate reason wherein there is any difference in the 270 and 280, just the same ole yakity yack jack. So now I need to add to my naughing the bone, I'll include the Rem 7 mag.

Unless you don't care for the .270 like me.

Besides the 7mm was an established world standard long before Winchester came up with the .270 for some unknown reason. Just trying to be different even back then I guess.

The 7mm also has lots of bullet choices compared to the .270 from just about every manufacturer in the world. What's not to like?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I still have not seen a legitimate reason wherein there is any difference in the 270 and 280, just the same ole yakity yack jack. So now I need to add to my naughing the bone, I'll include the Rem 7 mag..

BTW, Ive hunted with a Speer 170 gr. bullet in a 270 and it was a great killer, also a 180 gr. 270 at one time but don't remember the brand and never used it on game..but Id bet dollars to donuts it was a dandy and just had to penetrate like the devil..

I have no fault with either cartridge just don't buy the koolaide of separation on paper on in the field, its mutt and Jeff..

Ray,

It comes back to want someone wants. Personally, you could not give me a 280 or 280 AI but I am sure a lot of blokes that are all for the 280 and 280 AI might not want to come within 10 feet of what I like

I have a case of .280 Rem by Norma that I will sell you for $20 per box. Most reloaders love Norma brass. This would give you a life time supply of brass for .280 or shoot it in your .280 AI and you have fire formed.

Ammo is new and recent. I have plenty and can part with this. PM me if you want it.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That question would have been moot, just a few years ago, and the efficacy of the 280 Ackley would be the same. What I am saying is that, factory availability of any Ackley Improved cartridge should not matter as you can, and for most of them, must, make it yourself. In fact, I didn't even know they made it until a couple years ago, and I have a 280 Ack.
But if you are buying it, well, I recommend you learn to make brass.
270? Have no use for it; no reason for it to ever have been invented. 7mm bore size is far superior in every way.

It's always amazing to me that people think a 280 Rem is a superior cartridge to the 270. No performance difference until you get to a 7mm Mag and start shooting heavier (160 and 175g bullets)

Keeps gun writers busy and forums humming though

I doubt either one will die off in your lifetime. Buy what you want.

quote:

Originally posted by Tex84:
Any thoughts on ammo availability of these two cartridges in the long term? The AI seems to be getting more popular, so I imagine more factory loads will come online. I like the 280AI on paper but don’t want a caliber that will be obsolete one day.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:

It's always amazing to me that people think a 280 Rem is a superior cartridge to the 270. No performance difference until you get to a 7mm Mag and start shooting heavier (160 and 175g bullets)

Keeps gun writers busy and forums humming though

On Australia's biggest gun forum you even get the 7mm/08 is better than the 270 because of bullet selection.

However, in the real world it seems both Americans and Australians far prefer the 270 bore when case capacity is the same. Just look at the 270 and 280, 270 WSM and 7mm WSM, 270 Wby and 7mm Wby.

My Sako Finbear L61R in 280 AI with 24 inch barrel shoots 160 gr Accubonds very accurately - VV N560 produces 3050 fps with Nosler Book loads.

I have never heard of a 270 Win come anywhere near that.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That question would have been moot, just a few years ago, and the efficacy of the 280 Ackley would be the same. What I am saying is that, factory availability of any Ackley Improved cartridge should not matter as you can, and for most of them, must, make it yourself. In fact, I didn't even know they made it until a couple years ago, and I have a 280 Ack.
But if you are buying it, well, I recommend you learn to make brass.
270? Have no use for it; no reason for it to ever have been invented. 7mm bore size is far superior in every way.

It's always amazing to me that people think a 280 Rem is a superior cartridge to the 270. No performance difference until you get to a 7mm Mag and start shooting heavier (160 and 175g bullets)

Keeps gun writers busy and forums humming though

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
My Sako Finbear L61R in 280 AI with 24 inch barrel shoots 160 gr Accubonds very accurately - VV N560 produces 3050 fps with Nosler Book loads.

I have never heard of a 270 Win come anywhere near that.

I have had 3000 f/s 150 grainers in the 270.

If all else is equal one would expect a 280 AI to be faster with same weight bullets as bigger bore diameter and bigger case capacity. A 270 of the same case capacity as the 280 AI and again all else is equal would be slightly faster with bullets of equal sectional density.