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| One of Us |
Folks, A bit of an acedemic question at the moment, but one I've been thinking about while building fences. Is an 8x57 with handloaded A-Frames or the like a reasonable choice for eland? I was re-reading Gregor Woods rifle book and he would say no. However much I enjoy the book, Woods seems to think in terms of cup and core bullets only. That is not to say he doesn't understand modern bullets, just that what he grew up in embargo era RSA, and seems to habitually think in terms of what was commonly available there in the 80's. More reasonably, Woods only recommends bullet/cartridge combinations that can be relied upon to smash through a shoulder on a frontal quartering shot. With that in mind, he reccomends a bullet of at least 250 grains. Good advice I think, but can a modern 225 gr bullet be relied on to do the same thing? Cheers, Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | ||
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Dean, not sure what velocity you'd get with a 225gr in an 8mm Mauser, but assuming it's a modern action, most 8mm ammunition is underloaded anyway. So say 2,350-2,400 fps...you're in the ballpark of a 9.3x62 or a 35 Whelen or 338-06. Just remember that an Eland is a 2,000+ animal, so keep it as close to a broadside heart/lung shot as you can. | |||
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What an interesting question. From the experience of one eland, I'll slice your questions a bit to respond.
If you're asking "reasonable" I probably say no. "Adequate", "usable", yes.
Hard to dispute him!
This is where this gets interesting. I'm very interested in finding out about the real-life performance differences between modern bullets and traditional bullets.
I can certainly appreciate that.
I presume we speak .338? I think yes. We had a similar kind of discussion ref. the 8mm on the NitroExpress.com forum. It occurs that, indeed, today lighter bullets do the same as the heavier did not too long ago. We discussed the 220grs v. 200grs so not too different from the 250 v. 225 I think. We agreed that today the 200grs bullets do the same or more than the 220grs traditional bullets used to do. This would be especially true, in my opinion, with the premium bullets like Barnes X, Swift A-Frame, Nosler Partition and others. Now, I took my eland at a lazered 176 meters, i.e. 199 yds. .30-06, 180grs Speer Grand Slam (the "old" one, Speer Nitrex ammo). One shot, one kill. So while not statistically very representative, it proves that it can be done. Had I achieved the same with 8mm and 200grs? I don't see why not. Had I done the same had the shot been at a poor angle (e.g. frontal quartering)? I don't know. Looking at how well the bullet performed, I'd guess yes. Would this be recommended? Not by anyone whose books or articles I've read! I see that Swift makes the 8mm A-Frame in both 200grs and 220grs. My bet would be that the heavier bullet would perform better, but by how much? That I won't speculate. - Lars/Finland A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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I Think I might want a little more power. The .30-06 or 8x57 are basicly twins w/ the 8x57 handling heavier bullets a little better. 220gr and up are more for 8mm Rem Mag, not 8x57. Now to the subject of Modern Bullets. A Barnes TSX 180gr would be a great choice. I shoot 175gr Sierra hunters for whitetail, use IMR 4320. Barnes told me to use the same load data w/ the TSX. I settled on a load 2gr less then my 175gr load. At 200 yard it has over 1900fpe. Should do the job. I've also been playing w/ 160gr Barnes for Elk. Within the same 400 yard max range, you don't loose a thing. On paper! I'm also using 160gr barnes in 7MM rem Mag for elk. The 140gr also within a 500 yard window give nothing up to the 160gr. | |||
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Well I would submit plenty of Eland have been taken with the 8x57 and conventional projectiles well before now. A-Frames would be more of a good thing. I felt overgunned with my 9.3x62 and 286's achieving full penetration from non expanding SP projectiles. The question is, will you get expansion (and how much) from a Barnes projectile at 8x57 velocitys ? You may need to consider them a solid in which case hitting bone is problematic. Not all Eland reach the max weight and 2000lbs is definantly a maximum with the average more around 3/4 of that. Pick your shots, know their anatomy and the 8x57 will work as well now as it has in the past. | |||
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 Given the above with good loads and bullets (not the US factory crap) and you should be fine. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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An 8mm Swift A Frame shot into an Elands armpit should go right on though the lungs so yes it would make a nice combo. But if your shot should wonder due to defection or bad shooting then you wont be in as good a position as with something like bigger like a 9.3mm or 9.5mm Swift A Frame. Here's a massive Eland I would most likely lost had I been shooting anything lighter than 9.3mm and not had a great Tracker;  | |||
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Oz, very nice, classic old bull. | |||
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I know of a case where a guy shooting a 308Win with 165gr Sierra Game Kings took two broadside shots on a big Eland to kill it. Neither one made it past the first lung. The bull turned 180 degrees after the first shot and was shot again. The Eland fell over dead a few seconds after the second shot. That said, the hunter had the wrong loads in his rifle, he was supposed to use his 165gr Trophy Bonded's. But the critter died quickly. I would use an 200-225gr A-frame at 2300-2400fps from an 8x57 at ranges under 150 yards anytime for Eland. Bigger is better, but use what you have and can shoot accurately. | |||
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I would say that an eland cartridge starts with a 338 Mag and a premium 250gr bullet. I shot mine at under 12 yards with a 450 No2 double rifle... However a buddy of mine killed one with 2 shots from a 280 Remington using Federals factory 150gr Nosler Partitions... He hit the eland in the right spot, both times... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I suspect that my .270 with 150 gr NP's would work on an eland under ideal circumstances. I was more concerned about the less than perfect opportunity. Can an 8x57 develop enough momentum with a 220gr premiun bullet to be relied upon to break a shoulder and carry on into the vitals at bushveld ranges? I'm guessing no, but don't know. The concensus here seems to be running towrds no. Personally, I'd want more bullet weight to deal with the less than perfect broadside presentation. After all, I'm not going hunt too many eland and wouldn't want to have to pass on what might be one of only a couple of chances in my entire life. Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | |||
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If you want to use a heavier bullet like a 220, you are looking at about 2200 fps. At that velocity, a "premium" bullet may not be your best choice. Many of the 220 gr 8mm premium bullets were designed for 8mm RM speeds. A standard bullet works well at lower speeds. If I was intent on using a 8x57 on eland and wanted to use a premium bullet, I would opt for a 180 gr Barnes. You would at least be getting the bullet up to speed to ensure expansion. With that said, I once shot a Kudu with a 180 gr Barnes (30-06) right in the juncture of the neck and the shoulder at about 150 yards. The bullet and did not penetrate as far as I would like. The 180 did fine on my zebra and wildebeast where I didn't hit heavy bone. If I were to hunt big african plains game again, especially if I were going after eland, I would bring my 35 Whelen instead. | |||
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This is the Eland I killed in 2007 in Namibia with a 338WinMag and 225gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Shot was at 360 yards after two days of tracking just to get into position for a shot.  I was concerned the 338WinMag was a bit light but the bullet went through both lungs, the heart and stopped under the skin on the off side. It retained 98% of it's weight. | |||
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I shot my eland with a .375 too far back. It ran over a kilometer but died after jumping a fence in the process. Even a large bullet can fail to do the job properly if hit in the wrong place. My buddy shot one with a 220 gr. Nosler PT in a .300 H&H and it was still running two days later. They are big and resilient. Can you kill one with an 8x57? Sure. Would I want to? Uh-uh. There's too much prime meat on an eland to risk losing it to either a poor or an unlucky shot. 9.3x62 or larger, IMO, and make sure you hold forward. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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I am a huge fan of the 8x57 with bullets of 200 grains (NPs). I am also a huge fan of the .376 Steyr with both SPs and Solids, and the .375 Ruger. If I was going to Afrika tomorrow, I would take my Steyr Professionals in 8x57 and .376 for all game up to and including the thin-skined dangerous game. (That doesn't include Buff, guys, but does include Lion and Leopard.) Doesn't matter...I don't want to kill anything as beautiful as the big cats anyway unless I absolutely have to. But, to get to the point. Much as I love it, I wouldn't use the 8x57 m/m on Eland so long as I had plenty of ammo for the .376 Steyr. I'd plan to use the .376 and aim for the point of the shoulder (or of the off shoulder, depending on the angle). Wouldn't worry about meat damage either. From what I understand, even bloodshot meat is a delicacy for natives who are habitually short on protein rations. And there are enough backstraps on any eland to more than satisfy my own lean meat needs in the field. I'd rather eat bush pig anyway. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Having shot only 1 eland, I am not an expert by any means... But they aren't bullet proof... does anybody really think a 200gr .323 SD of .274 NP or swift aframe launched 2625 won't easily kill an eland? Would I take a Texas Heart Shot? No, but would I be concerned about a quartering shot? no I wouldn't. How may many Eland do you think have been cleanly killed with all those 8x57s brought down by Europeans...I suspect tons Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Well, considering that Elnad may weight up to one ton then, technically, two would make "tons"...  - Lars/Finland A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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I shot mine thru the ribs with an 8x57 and a 200 gr TSX at 180 yards. Ended up under the offside skin. He went about 80 yards and fell over. | |||
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There is no doubt an 8x57 will easily kill an eland given a halfway decent shot at it. More and more guys are taking shorter and shorter hunts these days though, in areas with less and less game. They may be lucky to get onto one eland, and thereby not be too choosy about the shots from which they have to select. Would I use an 8x57 if I had nothing bigger and needed the food? Darned right I would! And I think it would kill him soon enough for me to recover him before he soured or was "sampled" by some other carnivore. But, as long as I'd have the .376 and plenty of ammo for it along for the ride, I'd use it instead. Since both my 8x57 and .376 are the same make and model rifles, it would be even easier. The gun would feel "right", whichever was used. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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In Rifles for Africa, Gregor Woods killed one with an 8x57 and wrote he would not do so again as he did not feel such a round could be depended upon to consistently break the humerus if hit. He then said a 9.3 or 375 should be minimum because these rounds can do that. I suppose it's like using the same round for huge moose; can you do it? Sure you can. One has to avoid shot angles that will increase the likelihood of shooting the big bones is all. In 2008 I shot my bull moose here in Maine with the lowly 3006 running 220 gr Core Lokts at factory speed. Upon later inspection the first shot drilled a nickel sized hole neat as you please through the scapula on his right shoulder and blew bone fragments through his lungs which deflated both of them. A second running spine shot deflated him as well. This year I have another bull tag and will be shooting a 375. Admittedly, I have never shot an eland so I honestly have no point for further reference other than to say I would not use these calibers if I wanted to depend upon shooting through heavy bone on a regular basis. For that I'd use something bigger. And since my wife has a tag for the meat animal I'm hunting for a big bullwinkle and will use the rifle that will allow me to take any shot angle presented which will enable me to get to his vitals. | |||
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That was the exact passage that got me thinking. Woods seems to think and make reccomendations based on cup and core bullets. I was on the fence as to whether something like an A-Frame would provide enough of a penetration improvement to make it reliable.on exactly that shot. Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | |||
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If you read further, Dean he talks about his use of the various premiums. I inferred from the overall text that whether cnc or premium he favored heavy calibers for heavy animals. Period. | |||
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I know I certainly do. Why risk feeling miserable about wounding a fine animal and having it run off to die slowly? As is often stated on this forum, 'Overgunned beats the opposite'. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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With a properly constructed bullet of proper weight and properly placed in the heart lung area from an 8x57, I assure you that Eland is going to be recovered very shortly... I prefer a bit more rifle, and I have that choice, so I would prefer a 9.3x62, 338 or 375, but if all I had was a 8x57, 30-06 or 7x57 then I would probably do just as well.. I witnessed Phillip Price, Swartkei Safaris shoot a wounded Eland lengthwise with a 100 gr. Corelokt in his 243 Sako , I was amazed at the penetration... Phillip has killed many Eland with that combo. I suspect its as good a Eland rifle at 100 yards as a 300 wby is a 400 yards?  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I also think it could be done, proficiently. BUT! Personaly I think the load would have to be very well crafted and the shot very well placed. Eland are huge. The 8X57 loaded to its potential and from a good (not worn out) bbl is a potent and underrated cartridge. I wish I knew what kind of powder they used in some of that european millsurp stuff.. 186 grains is generally considered the optimum bullet weight for an 8X57, I wouldnt go with the 220 gn, about 200 works great in them. Like Jack OConnor once said, "The poor shot, the excitable man, the person with poor judgment would be inadequatley armed with a 416 Rigby". All that said, If it were me, Id opt for something a bit more. But I do think it could be done quite satisfactorily. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Again referencing Gregor Woods, he suggests caliber choice on what will, at a minimum, be able to break a shoulder, or humerus bone and thus provide penetration from any shot angle. I would well imagine an 8x57 tucked behind a shoulder into the lungs would work. Isn't this roughly the same line of argument you have posited in the past, Ray Atkinson, with your choice of bullets in 338 WM hunting elk in timber? | |||
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I know of one fellow who shot an eland angled and going away. The bullet entered on the left, between the hip and last rib, aimed at the far shoulder. The calibre was .375 H&H. I do not know the manufacture of the projectile. The hunter paid school fees. I presume that the projectile never got further than the stomach content which is in effect a large wet pack.  | |||
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Served him right, though the animal didn't deserve it. That's certainly a shot I would never take on an animal that large. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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Another "only one eland" anecdotal report: I took mine in Namibia in '09 with a 9,3x62 using a 250 gr pointy Woodleigh. It was a decent size, but not a huge bull at about 120 yards walking slowly broadside across our front. At the shot he bounded into the bush to be found by our sharp-eyed tracker (after some nail biting on my part) about 75 yards away and quite dead. The shot was placed well through both lungs with no major bones hit. It did not exit. There was almost no blood trail. So, it worked, but if I ever have the good fortune to stalk another of these magnificent creatures I will use at least a heavier bullet, if not something bigger altogether. They're big, they're tough and they can disappear in an instant. | |||
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I surely wish I could contribute to this conversation with personal experience on eland. What a magnificent animal, and what a place to hunt them. My logic tells me to agree with the above quote from Mr. Atkinson, simply. But then my logic keeps going beyond that, and if I did go to Africa, and was so fortunate to hunt eland, I do believe I would be using a 338 WM for the task. The same logic makes me more comfortable using a 338 WM generally here in Alaska. I am wondering about the 8x57, since I like to shoot rifles so chambered, and in the places I hunt there is the possibility of a bear encounter. So, potential penetration is a matter of concern, which is relevant to this topic. My specific question is about the use of the 200gr TSX 8mm bullet in the 8x57. Is there enough velocity potential in the handloaded cartridge to utilize the potential of the 200gr 8mm TSX bullet? In other words, is it likely to open up properly or pencil through? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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WOW!!! those are the longest Eland horns I have ever seen. Very nice animal | |||
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The 8x57 would not be amongst my top choices (not close) although many Eland are probably killed each year here with the 7x57, which I would view as totally inadequate. If you use a 220gr bullet and the range is not too long and if you place your shot into the heart / lung area and if you don't hit bone, you should be fine. That's a lot of "if's"... But placement wins over power... I know this to be true and even with my 375 H&H I've found that a shot that doesn't go as true as you'd like makes for a long day. I hit an Eland very slightly too far forward on a slightly angling away shot and a second running shot at 250 yards slightly far back. That's a lot of "slighlty's"... but the day became more than slightly long. I may use smaller calibers in the future, but I'd prefer a 338 with a 250gr tough bullet as a bare minimum. I've read Woods and lots of his other writing over the years and funnily enough I tend to think the opposite; that he is a "premium bullet" junkie. He does say that cup and core can work for slower bushveld shooting. By the way, he also talks of a failure to penetrate on an Eland with a 338 Sabi and a cup and core 250gr as I recall. | |||
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You guys don't think a 180 TSX at 2700 fps would put an eland down? Really? I always thought that while big, eland were pretty easy to kill. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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game ranch here in texas swears by 270s and 25-06s for them... neck shots, but the owners son has killed more eland, after being badly hit by hunters, than most of us... that being said, they are brick outhouse tough. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I don't think you can be over gunned on Eland as I have seen them take a lot of hurt before going down, and they weigh as much or more than buffalo, and size is a contributer to hard to kill..but they are not bullet proof, far from it. Like any animal if you stick a properly constructed 225 gr. bullet like a Nosler Partition at 2300 FPS bullet in the heart or both lungs, at anywhere near a reasonable range it will kill the animal..If you stick a 180 gr. .308 Nosler in the same spot you get the same results, and I have shot several with the 7x57 and 175 gr. Noslers with equally good result My personal choice for Eland is the .375 H&H with stout 300 or 350 gr bullets or a 416 with 350 gr. GS Customs bullets, and I can take any shot presented and get into the boiler room from any angle. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I've shot a few eland, and never found them to be very tough, but, that said, I always took good shots on them. try to force a shot on any animal and you run a higher risk of loosing it. | |||
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