Someday, I'd like to take ONE cape buffalo. Rather than buy a .404 or .416 that I'd never use again, what do you think of me using my .35 Whelen with 310 grain Woodleighs? Muzzle velocity is 2300 fps.

I think in most countries where you can shoot a cape buffalo the 35 Whelen does not meet minimum caliber requirements. Other than that with good shot placement you would have a dead buffalo.

BigB

I am a huge 35 Whelen guy. But with the minimum caliber requirements I think I would just borrow a rifle if I did not want to buy one.
But I can't imagine me not wanting to buy one.
Just use it and resell it or get a loaner. I
don't know what a Cape buffalo hunt costs but
I'm sure there aren't cheap. And you could buy a rifle like a CZ or Rem 798 in 375 or 404 for under $1000. Good hunting.

I'm sure this thread has the 9.3x62 crowd licking their chops.

I've just been rereading the ".338 in Africa" thread and apparently you can use any caliber in Namibia as long as it generates 3928 foot pounds of energy. I suspect the .35 Whelen can make that limit in handloads. My next thought would be how likely would it be for anyone over there to know whether it did or didn't, anyway? I think it would be up to the outfitter and PH, so I could negotiate that up front.
Borrowing a .375 H&H or .458 WM from the outfitter and throwing half a dozen rounds downrange before taking it after a buf doesn't sound like nearly as good a plan, but that's what I'd do before buying a rifle to shoot one buffalo.

"Borrowing a .375 H&H or .458 WM from the outfitter and throwing half a dozen rounds downrange before taking it after a buf doesn't sound like nearly as good a plan, but that's what I'd do before buying a rifle to shoot one buffalo."

You realize how much it costs to go cape buffalo hunting, right? Spending $1300 on a CZ rifle or some rifle like that is small potatoes compared to the cost of the trip.

My preferred plan, which I will pursue, is to try to use my Whelen. We'll see how well it does on eland next year.

Perhaps I'll decide it isn't worth it to me to shoot a buf.

while the .35 Whelen isn't meeting the legal requirements in most countries of Africa, you PH is the only guy that will know as the rifles are not checked for caliber.....

Ask your PH if you can use it and if he says yes.....then go with it!

I have never shot a cape buffalo but if the 9.3 X 62 is a proven choice.....then the .35 Whelen will do the trick too!

quote:

while the .35 Whelen isn't meeting the legal requirements in most countries of Africa, you PH is the only guy that will know as the rifles are not checked for caliber.....

Ask your PH if you can use it and if he says yes.....then go with it!

I have never shot a cape buffalo but if the 9.3 X 62 is a proven choice.....then the .35 Whelen will do the trick too!

Bad advice. Follow the law when hunting, period. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

Terry

Buy a 404 or 416 I may never go buff hunting with mine but 2 blk bears and a few deer latter my 416 is a blast and kills all right too.

An interesting possibility is, if you have a rifle with a magnum bolt face, have a new barrel added. If the .35 Whelen, get a std bolt face cartridge of .375 or larger (will be a wildcat) and use that.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Bad advice. Follow the law when hunting, period. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

Terry

I just found and used an online muzzle energy calculator to find out that I need to propel the .310 Woodleigh at only 90 fps faster than CPC factory loads for it to be legal in Namibia.

I guess I don't understand why someone would spend the money to hunt cape buffalo and then choose a subpar caliber to make that lifelong "dream hunt" with. There is a reason most African countries recommend the .375 as a minimum caliber for buff. And Namibia isn't exactly known as the cape buffalo capital of southern Africa! Check out this thread... http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/1921096551
and see Greg R's post regarding the 9.3x62.

Of course, in the end it IS your money and if you are determined to do it, you have my well wishes.

In africa, this caliber is illegal for buffalo, in all countries. Illegal hunting is called poaching, and can be delete with by the game scout. Up to and including death

Rebarrelled your 35 into a 9,3x64 for the trip. And then barrel is back. Don't be a stubborn ass and break game laws, becoming a poacher, over YOUR mental issues with a LAW

Or, hunt cape in Texas and shoot it with whatever you like

Being in jail, in Africa, over a 750 dollar rifle, on a $10,0000 hunt is stupid.

Am I calling you stupid? Nope. Am I telling you being he'll bent on breaking hunting laws is stupid?

Plain as sunshine I am

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Bad advice. Follow the law when hunting, period. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

Terry

I just found and used an online muzzle energy calculator to find out that I need to propel the .310 Woodleigh at only 90 fps faster than CPC factory loads for it to be legal in Namibia.

It is not just the me, sir, it is the caliber. Breaking game laws is poaching.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
In africa, this caliber is illegal for buffalo, in all countries.

Jeff, the caliber is not illegal in Namibia if it meets the energy requirement.

Exactly. This was just gone over in the .338 thread.

If the limit is 3928 I calculate you need around 2387FPS to reach it.

thanks frank .. i had never heard that for namibia .. not high on my list for buff, though...

so, in ONE country, you can take a pop gun and risk life and limb over stubornness?

(SIGH)

postoak, why don't we meet at carters, and you can shoot one of my bigbores? just give it a try... first couple rounds are free ...

I can shoot only one? What do you have by the way?

might might say i have a couple.

any specific caliber you'd like to shoot?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
thanks frank .. i had never heard that for namibia .. not high on my list for buff, though...

so, in ONE country, you can take a pop gun and risk life and limb over stubornness?

(SIGH)

postoak, why don't we meet at carters, and you can shoot one of my bigbores? just give it a try... first couple rounds are free ...

Mozambique minimum caliber to hunt "big game " is min 6mm and at least 40mm case length. so 243 would be legal but would i use it? NO!

If your happy hunting Buff where 35Whelen is legal, go for it, dont ever think that buying or borrowing a medium bore .375HH means you now have a save your ass stopping rifle, you still require a bigbore stopper backing you up.

John "Pondoro" Taylor calls the 375 the greatest all around rifle cartridge for African hunting of game, up to the size of elephant, rhino, hippo, cape buffalo and many other very large, and hard to stop animals. And great it is.... he talks about the very well known cartridge in Africa but not well known in the U.S. The 350 Rigby Magnum...it was basically a 35 Whelen of the times. Pushing a 225 grain bullet at 2600 fps.... John states very clearly that the 350 Rigby magnum will do what the 375 H&H will do on big game. It’s just that John wanted the solid 270 grain bullet weight of the 375 in the thick brush when he was after elephant. And he wished that Rigby would come out with a heavier bullet for the 350Rigby.

Load your 35Whelen-225 Monometal 2700mv,get within range,select and place your shot[s].
Unfortunately no one seems to make a banded .358cal solid, that you could load for.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Bad advice. Follow the law when hunting, period. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.

Terry

I just found and used an online muzzle energy calculator to find out that I need to propel the .310 Woodleigh at only 90 fps faster than CPC factory loads for it to be legal in Namibia.

First of all, my reply was in regard to other posters advice to disregard the law, if it was ok with his PH. That's just a bad idea. The last thing I would ever want is legal trouble that far away from home.

As far as getting an extra 90FPS out of a .310gn .358 bullet, that's not an easy task. Over pressure on another continent just sounds like a bad idea to me.

Obviously, these are just opinions. Don't take too much offence to them and if you pursue this I wish you all the best.

Terry

Thanks for the replies. Like I said, I may decide not to go after a buf, ever, anyway.

Trax, I know that about the .350 Rigby, and the Nosler ammo I have gives a velocity of 2800 fps with the 225 grain in the Whelen, so it actually has the Rigby beat by a couple of hundred feet per second.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
"Borrowing a .375 H&H or .458 WM from the outfitter and throwing half a dozen rounds downrange before taking it after a buf doesn't sound like nearly as good a plan, but that's what I'd do before buying a rifle to shoot one buffalo."

You realize how much it costs to go cape buffalo hunting, right? Spending $1300 on a CZ rifle or some rifle like that is small potatoes compared to the cost of the trip.

Buy a 375 H&H, go hunt then sell the thing to me cheap when you get home.

Taylor usually made a distinction between what was needed for the very occasional, controlled shot on dangerous game and taking game on a regular basis in "come as they may" conditions. For the former, he was much more liberal. I think he would have been fine with the .318, .333, and .350 -- and .35 Whelen.

Postoak: I know this is a game of fractions of an inch; a .366 bullet is legal in many countries while a .358 is not. In actual use and with similarly constructed bullets, there simply cannot be a meaningful difference in performance.
The more important point is that in the opinions of far more experienced hunters than I, the 9,3 X 62 and the 9,3X74 are already at the ragged edge of minimum for Cape buffalo except in the coolest, most skillful hands. And if things go wrong, you'll want a whole lot more gun unless you want your PH to do your hunting for you.

I have two 9.3x62s and a Remington Classic in 35 Whelen that I am about to trade off on another gun. The Whelen was first bought by a fellow for his wife for an upcoming trip to Africa. They were never able to make the trip and I wound up with the gun.

There are two questions here. First, is the Whelen legal for dangerous game? In most cases the answer is no. Second, is it capable of taking game like lions and buff? You bet your ass it is. I once shot nearly lengthwise through and elk with mine.

IMHO the minimum legal requrements for a dangerous game rifle in Africa do not take in to consideration the immense progress that has been made in projectiles in the last 30 years. The homogenous bullets like Barnes have ushered in a whole new era. It's to bad too because I think most guys would be better served with an 8 Mag, 325 WSM, .338 Win Mag, Whelen, or 9.3 than with some big boomer that makes them flinch. Shot placement with a good bullet is way more important than caliber. Just my two cents.

Dave: You do make an excellent point about the quantum leap in performance of the best modern bullets. The North Forks come to mind, along with Barnes offerings and the new Woodleigh hydrostatics.

PostOak seems to have started the thread by stating that he saw no reason to buy a rifle for one trip and suggesting that the 35 Whelen should be adequate.

Legal or not (and it would not be in most places), it will probably work under ideal circumstances. A decent PH would certainly try to arrange a safe shooting situation for a hunter so armed.

Might be wise to remember that in real life things happen ... sometimes not nice things! In such circumstances a hunter who is alert and well prepared has a better chance than one who does not.

Is a 310 gr bullet at 2387 fps or a 225 gr bullet at 2600 fps going to have the same effect as a 300 gr Barnes TSX at 2600 fps. Probably not.

While I only have a little experience in the field with buffalo ... I can tell you that personally I want have the biggest gun I can handle in my hands when it hits the fan. And I want the help of a calm PH who can shoot if needed.

Obviously your choice ... but if I ever get back to hunt Buff again, I'll be carrying more than a 35 Whelen.

Mike:

Again, just my two cents. We don't have a choice here because hunting with these "lesser" calibers is not legal and I sure don't want to wind up in the clink, especially one in a foreign country. While I no longer have a .338 Win Mag, I do have an 8mm Remington Magnum with a 26 inch Hart medium sporter barrel on it. It just loves 220 grain Swifts and it will launch a 200 grain TSX bullet at 2900+. I don't have any experience with buffalo but I do with bison that are half again as big and I would not hesitate for an instant to hunt a buffalo with that rifle and would probably opt for the lighter TSX bullet.

Ditto all the above. Also, to use those extra heavy Woodleighs, and such, requires the fastest twist available in a 35 Whelen. Otherwise you are just dreaming. The bullet won't stabelize and is useless. Most 35 Whelens have 14" or 16" twist rate, which ain't fast enough for the heavy bullets. I would want at least a 12" twist, and it may take 10" twist to stabelize the 310gr Woodleigh.

Besides, I wouldn't choose the 310gr Woodleigh anyway. If I wanted a heavy .358 bullet, it would be the 280 gr Swift, which still needs a twist rate faster than 14".

Just increasing the weight of the bullet, thinking that should solve some "problem", is merely a clue that maybe you don't understand the "problem".

Thoroughly understanding the "problem" can easily be rendered moot by acquiring a 416 Ruger, sight it in, play with it, take it to Africa, blast a buff, then sell the Ruger for $100 less than you paid for it. Heck, there is a good chance that you could sell it in Africa, or just use it to tip the guide - just give it to him.

It's a small part of the overall expense of such a trip, and several things less to worry about. Use factory ammo, again one less thing to worry about. IMO, this suggestion allows freedom for your attention to focus on other details. For me, that would be a huge relief.

KB

Interesting comments Klabuewy. Thanks for the tip about the twist rate on the heavier bullets.

My only thoughts regarding the heavier bullet was assured penetration on a buf.

You just said, and several others have said, just sell the rifle when I get home, at a small loss. You must be exceptional bargainers. My own experience and from watching what people get for used firearms on another forum is that you're lucky to get 60% of what you paid for a rig that is almost brand new when you sell it. You are definitely not in the driver's seat when you are selling. Something like a .416 also has a very, very, limited market.

As for tipping it to the guide, I wonder, in the RSA if that is even possible. (?) Isn't the whole purpose of all the entry forms partly to make sure you take your firearm out with you (and that it is exactly the one you brought in)?

The landowner where I hunted said he had been waiting 3 years for approval to buy a new .375. If they are making it this hard, would they allow you to just gift over a rifle brought from out-of-country?

You are right - regarding the laws in RSA - I may not understand the problem. I'm pretty sure a cash tip isn't against some crazy law. However, whatever the law is, you want to stay within it.

IMO, if you start a conversation with your guide or PH, that indicates your willingness to push the boundaries of the law or reason, it becomes a credability issue. Personally, I would want to avoid that. It should be rather easy to avoid such issues and problems with some common sense. IMO, messing with RSA legal issues is almost as dangerous as trying to whack a cape buff with a marginal cartridge. There is simply no reason that I can see to intentionally do either. Get a big enough gun, and comply with the law.

On selling rifles, I have had good luck on gunbroker, and some have good results here on AR.

The major bonus, with the Ruger 416, is that most likely you wouldn't have to do anything to the rifle to get it ready to go, except break it in, and thoroughly test it for function. Also, the probability of it breaking while in the bush is low.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=228910143

A used 416 Ruger is rarely seen. I'm pretty sure it would be an easy sell, if not damaged.

Selling a used custom rifle is a different story, in my experience. 60% seems about right from what I've seen.

KB

quote:

but if I ever get back to hunt Buff again, I'll be carrying more than a 35 Whelen.

The point was well made earlier.....A cape buffalo shot is a $6,000 trigger pull (or more) over and above the normal plains game hunt.....

If you can afford the hunt.....then a .375 H&H isn't out of reach either.....

Choosing a 375 opens up many, many possibilities.

Go to gunbroker, and do a search under bolt action rifles for 375.

I like the CZ 550. Here's an example: http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=228471746

But I found the American style stock to produce less felt recoil: http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=230351945

I just think it's a good excuse to own a 416, at least for a while.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I guess I don't understand why someone would spend the money to hunt cape buffalo and then choose a subpar caliber to make that lifelong "dream hunt" with. There is a reason most African countries recommend the .375 as a minimum caliber for buff. And Namibia isn't exactly known as the cape buffalo capital of southern Africa! Check out this thread... http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/1921096551
and see Jack Bold's post regarding the 9.3x62.

Of course, in the end it IS your money and if you are determined to do it, you have my well wishes.

So I agree with the above….


There are just a bunch of “what ifs” and “we'll sees” but I just don’t get it.

You can get a good 375 cal for 1500.00 USD. And you’re talking about a 50K USD hunt… maybe more.


Get it and sell it if you don't want to keep it

Maybe it the Internet or just someone who like to make a point…


Or

Maybe I just fell into postoak's trap....

You know the old saw..."A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing"...and it doesn't take much to start the stuff rolling.

I think Temmi said it best and hit the point...about the trap.

It doesn't matter if you like game laws of ANY country or state, until they are changed you better follow them...

In many US states if you break the law you lose not only your rifle, but your money and EVERYTHING OF VALUE you used in the commission of that crime, that the judge deems usefull to the law enforcement community...AND you went to jail!!!! In some places in Africa they can cap your ass...in Utah they had doller-a-year people whose sole purpose in life was to screw you over and collect their pieces of silver after they ratted you out.

That seems MORE than a little ignorant to me...even for a mindless argument.

If the rifle is legal, no matter WHAT the caliber, and you want to use it, it's YOUR dollar and YOUR skin...you don't need ANYONE'S permission...Bless you, my child, go be safe from evil.

Luck

buy a 416 for $1K, add rings, scope, brass, dies .. have it bedded correctly.. go to africa

sell the package for 900, less scope..
you are out 300 bucks MAX

or, if you argue with the game scout over being arrested for poaching, get shot.

300 bucks is cheapcheap