A 30-06 will do it all in Alaska--if you really think you need more--get the big brother .35 Whelen. For sure a faster .30 is not needed.

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
For cost effectiveness I am leaning toward the 358-375 Ruger

Keeping Grizz from eating my family on our camping trip next summer. We plan on going to Alaska.

If cost effectiveness is really a goal, IMO you've started off in a direction that immediately defeats that goal. Spend the money on family enjoyment of the trip, and spend your time in learning to avoid obviously stupid things and behavior that may attract or surprise a bear. Increasing your odds of avoiding bear problems is the first defense. If you have to shoot a bear, most likely it's due to a stupid or careless mistake on your part. Secondly, it could just be bad luck. But in anycase, the problem of a bad bear encounter can be solved with a far less expensive firearm than a custom wildcat or obscure cartridge.

As suggested, a simple pump 12 gauge shotgun with short barrel and sights is a really good weapon, with versitility. Benelli Nova or Rem 870 are really inexpensive and really good choices, but leave the buck shot in the store. While others may disagree, my opinion is firm that buckshot is good for home defense and maybe for deer hunting, but it's practically worthless for brown bear defense, unless your goal is to piss off the bear, and you like a lot of prolonged and messy roaring, bawling, gnashing of teeth, screaming, blood, and uncertainty. Buy the Brenneke 1 3/8 oz slugs, black magic is what I think they are called nowadays. Do not buy slugs intended for deer hunting, as they will most likely fail on a brown bear. In this case, with this weapon, you do not want the rapid and wide mushrooming of the typical deer slug. The heavy 3 inch Brennekes are capable of stopping a bear up close and personal, which is the only range worthy of real consideration for a camper.

http://www.google.com/products...eAB&ved=0CDEQ8wIwAw#

Look at the reviews. Ignore any discussion of 100 yds. This is for 15 yds or less, IMO. The energy drops off too quickly at range beyond up close and personal. At the range most needed, and appropriate, these slugs offer real thump.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewp...CompListing-_-712244

Or alternatively - this is for barrels with rifleing, rather than smooth bore.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=361263

If you have to have a rifle, just get a factory Ruger in stainless chambered in 375 Ruger. I think they are called the Ruger Alaskan. They are not expensive in relation to what you get, and they have a really good resale value. The factory iron sights are plenty good, so no scope is needed, and they are easy to carry.

With either choice, your wife can shoot in an emergency, without breaking her jaw, or cutting her eyebrow.

Also, as mentioned a cheap pawn shop 30-06 will do the job, (iron sights, no scope, heavy bullet) especially considering that it will mostly be carried, with a remote chance of actually being needed, especially if you do your part to avoid trouble.

Again, I recommend spending money on family enjoyment, and be conservative on a firearm purchase, given your stated purpose.

KB

For what it's worth, when I lived in Alaska, the old timers often referred to the 35 Whelen as the "poor man's magnum." If you want just a bit more juice, can go the 35 Whelen Ackley Improved but think the gain is somewhere around 5% improvment. Easy to reload, not cost prohibitive and recoil won't bring about flinching issues which like it or not, some folks just can't handle all the large doses of recoil. I was told by Fish and Game folks that if the encounter occurs at say less than 15yds you are in trouble(bears can outrun a horse for short distances) and in such a situation would not be the time for flinching, but rather a well placed shot to turn or perhaps kill the bear. Follow up shot may be required if time permits and heavy recoiling rifles could delay that action a bit unless skilled in taking a quick second shot. Whatever you end up with, nothing like practice.

For your stated purpose, I'd probably opt for Kabluewy's suggestion of a 12 ga pump loaded with slugs.

If you're using this occasion as an excuse to buy yourself a nice custom rifle, that's a different story. In that case, I'd have to ask whether or not you intend to return to Alaska or go to Africa for future hunting trips? If the answer is anything other than definitely, I'd probably opt for something more sedate that's a more practical choice for hunting the lower 48.

You could go for a .35 Whelen and cover both. With 250+ grain bullets, it will knock down a grizzly, especially up close and personal. Loaded with 200 grainers, it works fine as a deer gun.

If you just want a big boomer, my own personal choice wouldn't be any wildcat, it would be a .375 H&H, or possibly a .458 Lott.

I have a 35 Whelen AI and would not feel under gunned. Granted the only bear I have shot was only a 400# black bear, but it was drt. However; if bigger is better, I have a 358STA reamer for sale.

There is always a debate about whether to load slugs or buckshot for defense against bears.

The decision rests in part on how and why you are shooting them.

As a general rule for camp, hiking, and similar defense situations, these days you will be in deep, deep, legal do-do if you can't show you HAD to shoot. Each and every "defensive" grizzly bear shooting WILL be thoroughly investigated eventually. There is always SOMEONE who blabs to someone else about it, usually the shooter or his family.

If the bear is more than 15 feet away when you fire the first shot, you are likely to be in serious legal trouble. Bears OFTEN make false charges both to assure themselves you are not a threat to them or their offspring, and to try to scare you away. Those charges frequently come as close as 15 feet, and sometimes even 10 feet before they stop, huff and puff, gnash their teeth, growl, roar, and eventually turn away and leave slowly but angrily.

If the charge is serious, the bear will be directly facing you and coming fast. A load of buckshot in their face will usually turn them or stop them at least temporarily. Sometimes they will stop for an instant and start slapping at the painful wound, trying to fend off whatever is hurting them. Either way, then a slug can be put into them where it will do the best good. You'll have more time to place that slug well once the bear is temporarily halted (if not killed) by the buckshot.

If you miss or wound by firing a slug first, the next round is likely to be a desperation attempt while the bear is gnawing on you or, having slapped you down, is leaping toward whoever else is closest. And that round will probably be fired only in your brain, but not in your weapon, because being slapped or chewed by a grizzly will almost always mean you no longer have your hands on your gun.

The best policy the CBC crews found is to load the first shot of SSG or its equivalent. I would load it of either #4 buck, or single-0ught buck. Buckshot is not spread wide up close, and has an action kind of like the bear sticking its head in a meat grinder. It can blind him or more likely her, cause immense pain, and/or chew its way through the front of the skull and into the brain if you're lucky.

For the second, and maybe all the rest of the rounds in the mag, I would use Brenneke slugs.

Now comes the important part...how to decide to shoot a bear without shooting yourself in the legal foot....

DO NOT TRY to figure out what the bear is going to do. Hell, it doesn't know what it will do when it finally gets up to you! You need to set what is literally a "DEAD line".

In advance of even going to Alaska, make your decision. Don't wait until the action is too fast to allow you to reason. I suggest a dead line of 10 or 12 feet. If the bear comes closer than that while looking at you front on, sideways, however, shoot it!!! If it sees you and comes that close, you have to assume it means no good will for you.

If it stays that far or farther away than that, whether growling, roaring, whatever, DON'T shoot it. Its okay to wet yourself, poop your pants, etc. It's enough to scare the s--- out of anyone. But, You don't want to pay a multi-thousand dollar fine and maybe pay for a couple of trips from your home to an Alaskan court because you shot a grizzly which was just trying to scare you off.

Whatever you decide, then practice handling that gun a bunch. The last 3 seconds are no time to try to locate the safety.

Also do as kabluewy suggests...learn all you can in advance about how to not attract or provoke bears. And talk to game department folks, guides, etc., about what YOUR dead line should be both for effectiveness against bears and for legal protection...a sad but necessary consideration.

Best wishes, congratulations, and have fun, safely.

I tend to agree with the 15 feet thingy, but still it's difficult to actually imagine the nerve it would take to hold fire until the bear was 15 feet away. That ain't 3 seconds. That's a fraction of a second away, and fractioned again, if the bear already has momentum.

There are few outdoor experiences gone very wrong that haunt me worse than thinking about a cheechako - brown bear encounter. An armed cheechako, with an inadequate firearm, or inadequate ammo, or inadequate attitude, or inadequate experience with the firearm of choice, spells a bad day with mother nature, IMO. Notice I said encounter, which is not necessarily a charge. A simple encounter can be turned badly with the wrong action or behavior.

I've had lots of encounters with brown bears, and they generally are not frightening, but only get one's attention. Most - and I really mean most, like 99%, of the bears I've encountered, have seen and been around people many times, all their lives. Mostly they just want to go about their business, and prefer that you do the same. The few frightening bears I've personally been close to were young and very hungry bears. It was easy to tell they were hungry by their bravery, and behavior, and they were skinny too. Even then, they didn't just rush right up, but were cautious, and figuring their probabilities of success, which gave me time to depart. A young bear in such a prediciment most likely happens when his mother is killed before the cub is fully weaned, and the cub has to winter, or simply fatten itself in preperation for winter, without its mother for that final year or season of adolecence. The absolute worst bear to encounter, IMO, is one that has been previously shot, and has a debilitating and festering and painful wound, and can't fatten up for winter. Those bears will kill you - no bluffing. This is the kind of bear that will starting eating you while you are still alive.

In the event of a real charge - Heck, I think I have the right frame of mind, and experience, but I ain't sure about that. A real charge is very frightening. It's not yet happened to me, but I've been close amongst um.

I had a very close friend explain in detail a serious charge which he experienced. He said the bear was low, straight on, beady eyed, ears laid back, and super quick. Instinctual shooting was all there was time for - point and shoot. Fortunately for him and his wife, he knew what to do and how. Also, fortunately, he had the rifle ready before the charge. As he explained it, if the rifle had been on his shoulder, there wouldn't have been enogh time, and the bear would have won. There is more to the story, but it's a long story - suffice to tell that this bear was out to kill - preditory, not territorial or fearful, no doubt. The most scary situation I can imagine in the wilds of North America.

So, with that in mind, buckshot is a scary tool to me. In my mind, and attitude, I don't want to slow or divert a charge - instead I want to stop it - right now - decisevly. This is the only wild situation that I can think of on this continent, where a stopper is what I want - period. With buckshot, the necessity of a second shot is almost a certainty. The first shot is tough enough, and a second shot may be impossible. But, in either case, a second shot should be done, if possible, whether the bear is down or not. That's what I did on the brown bear I shot while hunting, which was not a charge situation.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject. A plus for me is that such an opinion gives me a good excuse to own a short barreled 458 to mess with.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I tend to agree with the 15 feet thingy, but still it's difficult to actually imagine the nerve it would take to hold fire until the bear was 15 feet away. That ain't 3 seconds. That's a fraction of a second away, and fractioned again, if the bear already has momentum.

There are few outdoor experiences gone very wrong that haunt me worse than thinking about a cheechako - brown bear encounter. An armed cheechako, with an inadequate firearm, or inadequate ammo, or inadequate attitude, or inadequate experience with the firearm of choice, spells a bad day with mother nature, IMO. Notice I said encounter, which is not necessarily a charge. A simple encounter can be turned badly with the wrong action or behavior.

I've had lots of encounters with brown bears, and they generally are not frightening, but only get one's attention. Most - and I really mean most, like 99%, of the bears I've encountered, have seen and been around people many times, all their lives. Mostly they just want to go about their business, and prefer that you do the same.

In the event of a real charge - Heck, I think I have the right frame of mind, and experience, but I ain't sure about that. A real charge is very frightening. It's not yet happened to me, but I've been close amongst um.

I had a very close friend explain in detail a serious charge which he experienced. He said the bear was low, straight on, beady eyed, ears laid back, and super quick. Instinctual shooting was all there was time for - point and shoot. Fortunately for him and his wife, he knew what to do and how. Also, fortunately, he had the rifle ready before the charge. As he explained it, if the rifle had been on his shoulder, there wouldn't have been enogh time, and the bear would have won. There is more to the story, but it's a long story - suffice to tell that this bear was out to kill - preditory, not territorial or fearful, no doubt. The most scary situation I can imagine in the wilds of North America.

So, with that in mind, buckshot is a scary tool to me. In my mind, and attitude, I don't want to slow or divert a charge - instead I want to stop it - right now - decisevly. This is the only wild situation that I can think of on this continent, where a stopper is what I want - period. With buckshot, the necessity of a second shot is almost a certainty. The first shot is tough enough, and a second shot may be impossible. But, in either case, a second shot should be done, if possible, whether the bear is down or not. That's what I did on the brown bear I shot while hunting, which was not a charge situation.

Anyway, that's my opinion on the subject. A plus for me is that such an opinion gives me a good excuse to own a short barreled 458 to mess with.

KB

Yes, it takes good self control to wait until the bear is within 12 feet or so. But if a man can't control himself in dangerous circumstance, he should not put himself in those circumstances...and especially not put his wife and kids there. It is a primary obligation of a husband and father to protect them, not place them into danger one can't handle.

And, of course, the weapon should be in one's hands as soon as the grizzly is spotted and before there is any thought of needing to shoot it...often about 50 yards for barren ground or mountain grizz. He asked about grizz, not coastal Browns, so that is why I used 3 seconds. It takes an angry running grizz on a serious charge about 3 seconds to cover 50 yards of open slightly broken terrain. That is still no time to be trying to find and learning to work a safety switch.

My comments about using SSG for the first round are not theory. They are what CBC camera crews doing nature films in the far North found worked well when dealing with grizzlies over years of experience. The problem with slugs is when really pressed for time, they are even slightly less apt to hit where needed than is the SSG...if they hit the bear at all.

And that is, of course, another good reason to make the dead line a close one. It is surprisingly easier to hit a fast moving grizzly's head with SSG at 12 feet than it is at even 15 yards.

Anyway, I can't tell him what to pick, or train him to use it, or even IF to use it in whatever circumstance he runs into.

I can only suggest what I know has worked for armed wildlife photographers who had to protect their lives and their crews once in a while.

Me, I'd really like a correctly deployed circle of Claymores with trip wires....

Best wishes,

AC

I understand A C.

I'm not familiar with SSG buckshot. Obviously your intentions are in the right place, and you have solid evidence.

My stopper idea/theory is a personal preference, and opinion - something I'm comfortable with, and I like the comfort thought when I'm on the trail, even if it is just an illusion. I already know that such a feeling - which is all it is until proven - is not present for me when the chamber is loaded with buckshot. To describe the feeling - it's sorta like being in the presence of a potential monster, wearing only Haines skivies, and nowhere to run or hide. It's practically impossible to bluff assurance, as the first option, when naked. Based on that, my inability to relate to the use of buckshot for such purpose, I simply can't, with any conscience at all, recommend buckshot.

As far as I know, AK fish and game, Forest Service, and other Govt. field personnel, still use either a modified 375 H&H or a pump shotgun with Brennekes. No buckshot allowed.

Also, there is something else for a nimrod cheechako to watch out for. Don't let the possession of a big gun give the illusion of false security. Think of it as merely a last resort. The best defense is avoidance of bad situations, and don't be a ninny frolicking with mother nature in Alaska.

KB

Just FYI. Kabluewy, SSG is .27" diameter, the same as American #2 BUCKSHOT (not #2 birdshot). As such, there are about 16 or more pellets in a typical 2-3/4" shell.

They tend to work in rather awesome fashion, basically "chewing" their way through meat and bone when shot from close enough to have NOT spread out into a pattern of more than, say, 2-1/2 to 3".

Incidentally,they were a favourite of some special troops in the 'Nam for chewing their way through jungle and killing the enemy behind the bush.

And like I always point out, different folks like different horses, that's why they have races. Clearly if the Alaskan F&G doesn't allow buckshot, it bets differently than the CBC camera crews do to protect their lives. But, that's fair. I'd still prefer my Claymores, backed by maybe a 1919 A-4.

And take that side of bacon out of my backpack, please...

Edited to add: And I like your last line in your last post best of all...."Don't be a ninny frolicking with mother nature in alaska."

One of my best friends, now dead because of a motorcycle vs. bicycle accident near Crater Lake in Oregon, worked most of each year on the islands in the Kodiak area helping the natives cut & trim their timber to get the best grade from it. As he was a health fanatic, he walked several miles each way there and back through the bush on a trail from the camp to the logging site each day. At first he did it without a rifle. Then when he met what seemed to be the same Brownie each day for three days in a row at about the same spot each way, each time closer to the trail (and it started following him for a ways each direction) he decided it was sizing him up as protein. He still walked his trail every day, but after that he carried his Model '86 50-110 with his own handloaded 525 grain bullets.

A brave nature lover he was, but not a ninny about it.

P.S., his religion was "elk hunting". He wrote and self published a book called "Bullets, Blood & Backstraps". Folks liked it enough it went through 4 printings before he passed on. His name was Mike Simmons.

I don't know about that 15 feet distance rule. We were always told closer than 15yds was damn near indefensible regardless of caliber to actually stop the bear in full charge, regardless of caliber. No question about the legality issues, a very, very harsh investigation will take place upon killing a griz/brown bear in self defense. AF&G did a study in I believe the late 70's, early 80's as to most effective caliber to use and it was noted that calibers such as the 458win, 460Wby were not preferred due to inability for most to follow up with accurate second shot due to stout recoil. When I lived there the Forrest Svc. crews were issued a Sako w/ 18" barrel in 375HH for bear protection.
As for the shotgun approach, buck or slug, folks I travelled with in "the bush" were not fans of it and much preferred the rifle approach. Big griz or brown is one tough critter and lots of sinew, bone, muscle, etc. to go through to put him down at least temporary. Don't know about now, but most common calibers seen were '06, 300WinMag or 338WinMag. About anyone you ran into in the bush had a Ruger Blackhawk 44Mag on their hip or tucked away someplace. Alaska must be the world's highest concentration of that revolver for they are like pencils, everyone has them.
That would definitely be a "last ditch effort" I would think. Article in Fairbanks newspaper late 70's about gold miner who was attacked by griz and had put 5 rounds into the bear and final one through the mouth into the brain to kill the bear. Pictures shown of the poor guy was nasty for it had torn off most of his scalp, chunks of flesh everywhere, but he survived.
Original posting on this subject believe mentioned something about camping with family and if you do that, be sure and set up small tent/shelter with foodstuffs some distance from wherever you are sleeping. Don't wipe bacon grease, food particles on you trousers, clothing and take them into your sleeping tent. You may end up with unexpected guest for dinner. Not good!

I respect what you guys are saying, and obviously each of you have more experience than I do, but it seems to me that someone who waits until the bear is 15 FEET AWAY before shooting is taking his life (and that of those around him) very much in his hands. If I saw a bear, I would get my gun ready, and the moment it appeared there was danger, I would shoot. I'm not saying I would shoot at, say, 200 yards. But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

My 2 policies would be:

Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

What Happens in the Mountains (Wilderness, etc) Stays in the Mountains.

quote:

Originally posted by Davis Goertzen:
I respect what you guys are saying, and obviously each of you have more experience than I do, but it seems to me that someone who waits until the bear is 15 FEET AWAY before shooting is taking his life (and that of those around him) very much in his hands. If I saw a bear, I would get my gun ready, and the moment it appeared there was danger, I would shoot. I'm not saying I would shoot at, say, 200 yards. But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

My 2 policies would be:

Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

What Happens in the Mountains (Wilderness, etc) Stays in the Mountains.

That's good theory, and lots of people feel that way, but the truth is that what happens in the mountains or woods most often does NOT stay there. Believe it or not, in most rural areas almost everyone knows what everyone else is doing or has done. It is one of their few entertainments available and it spreads far and wide, quick, by moccasin telegraph.

quote:

Originally posted by Davis Goertzen:
But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

My 2 policies would be:

Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

What Happens in the Mountains (Wilderness, etc) Stays in the Mountains.

Many of the bears killed or wounded in Alaska, other than a hunting situation, happen in the way you described. And most of those are shot unnecessarily. It's just a fact of cheekchako & bear encounters.

It's also my opinion that lots of bears are shot and just left to rot, or eaten by another bear. Nobody wants an investigation, and few want to be forced to go back to the scene and skin the bear out just to give the hide to F&G. I dunno what I would do and ain't sayin either, regarding the future, but in the past it hasn't happened that way, and there were several opportunities. But I really doubt that I would start shooting at anywhere near 50 yds. For one thing, with the slugs I recommended, or any slugs, at 50 yd shot would be foolish indeed. Buchshot would be like pissing in the wind, and only do you good if the bear was downwind and didn't like the smell of your piss.

KB

Yes, at 50 yards, all buckshot would do is piss him off, even if you made a very lucky shot.

The plain fact is though, that most cheechakos are not good enough with rifles or pressure situations with bears to be safe armed with rifles.

I completely agree with Kabluewy on using a shotgun, as I mentioned in one of the earlier posts in this thread.

He and I were just debating what the first round in the old corn-shucker should be. I do agree with him that it should be something that gives the shooter confidence. I also agree that the best defense is to not get into a situation that will require shooting at or near a grizzly bear OR a brown bear.

If a guy can't learn to do that, he is best off going to Alaska on a guided tour...inland passage up, bus or plane back to the lower 48.

For determining if the bear is 15 feet away do you recommend a tape measure or a plain ruler? I know where I can get a plain ruler with advertising on it for free and I hate to spend the money for a tape measure if the plain ruler would work. I could make a sheath for the ruler and it would be easy to pack but to get 15 feet I'd have to do it in 15 increments.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
For determining if the bear is 15 feet away do you recommend a tape measure or a plain ruler? I know where I can get a plain ruler with advertising on it for free and I hate to spend the money for a tape measure if the plain ruler would work. I could make a sheath for the ruler and it would be easy to pack but to get 15 feet I'd have to do it in 15 increments.

Yes, of course the best humor comes from a source least expected. Making humor is an indicator of good character. Appreciation of humor is a sure indicator of a good judge of character. Thanks for that bit of humor.

KB

quote:

Originally posted:
If I saw a bear, I would get my gun ready, and the moment it appeared there was danger, I would shoot. I'm not saying I would shoot at, say, 200 yards. But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

The problem is, you don't KNOW if it is charging. YOU are the intruder into its home, and probably 98 0r 99 times out of 100, it is just trying to scare you off, to protect itself or ITS family.

So you think that is a good reason to kill it even if there is no need to?

You might want to reflect on that for a while before putting it all over the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
For determining if the bear is 15 feet away do you recommend a tape measure or a plain ruler? I know where I can get a plain ruler with advertising on it for free and I hate to spend the money for a tape measure if the plain ruler would work. I could make a sheath for the ruler and it would be easy to pack but to get 15 feet I'd have to do it in 15 increments.

The claymore comment was funnier.

Back to your original question.

Just get and use the 375 Ruger.

If you want a "cat" go with the 35-375 Ruger.

Barstooler

And one last comment here....

If you follow the 15 foot rule, don't aim for his/her body. Aim for the head.

If you are slightly off and he is coming directly at you, you will still likely hit him in the brisket (and possibly hit the heart), the top of the spine, or one of the shoulders, all of which are more likely to be quick at least momentary stoppers than a hit in the lungs or farther back.

Even a heart shot does not kill the brain or other muscles instantly. The brain dies from lack of oxygen from the heart shot, but that CAN take up to 3 minutes (though it is usually less).

The best shot for quick stopping would be to break both shoulders, or break the spine but that angle for both shoulders with one shot is probably not going to be presented to you during a charge, and the spine may not be either. The skull likely will be.

The SSG shots I was describing with the shotgun were aimed to be HEAD shots, not torso shots.

If you don't follow the 15 foot rule, get the AF&G recommended Dead Line distance in writing in advance, and have the phone number of a good alaskan criminal defense lawyer close at hand.

If I was going to buy a rifle just for the trip, I would agree with the .375 Ruger as a good choice. You can use it elsewhere on lots of stuff like elk, moose, or whatever else you want to plug in North America.

But given the legal climate, I'd still prefer a shotgun for bear insurance on Grizzlies if I couldn't have my Claymores.

If it has dollar bills in it's paws it's paying cash--if a credit card it's charging.

I like your advice, AC.

You are right about a straight on shot. Another part of the story my friend told me -- the only rifle he uses is an old Remington chambered in 300 H&H. That day, he was using new Federal ammo, with the Nosler 180gr partitions. He was standing on a sort of berm, of logging debris, so he could get a good view, so he was somewhat above the bear, looking down, not at the same level. He shot for the head, but missed a little, and got one of the shoulders. The bear went down, and bounced right back up, turned around for departure. My friend was quick enough to put another shot "right up his butt" as the bear crossed over a log.

He and his wife were out blueberry picking that day, and the logged over area was thick with new growth, especially blueberries. Twenty five feet is a long way for visibility in such growth. He could see the bushes moving and parting way for the approaching bear before actually seeing the bear.

There were several people, including F&G, looking for several days for that wounded bear. They posted signs to warn people and discourage them from the area, but some guys went anyway. It was found the following spring within 150 yds of the site of the charge, mostly hair and bones by that time. They were looking in the wrong place, and had expected it to go further, with only a 180 gr bullet in the shoulder and one up its arsh.

So, a cannon or claymores isn't necessary, if the bear is turned, but I certainly feel confident with my 458. I'm using handloads, not full blast factory loads. I intentionally do not want to use the 500+ gr bullets, because of the follow up issue. I'm relatively sure that I can follow up with this rifle, and these loads just as fast as I could with a 375. But my goal is that I don't need to follow up, but do it anyway for good measure. The 350 gr or 400 gr bullets I'm using, at around 2300 ++ fps, IMO, will definately put the whack on a frontal shot into a bear. I would prefer that any bear I had to shoot simply stayed down because he couldn't get up.

I really like shooting my rifle, and have practiced a lot with it already, and take it out just to blast at targets, and stumps, offhand. The compressed loads, using 400 gr Swifts are pretty intense, in that light rifle, but plenty tolerable for its purpose. I really like using iron sights, since it totally relieves any worry of getting whacked in the eyebrow by a scope. Heck, that much recoil has already broken one Leupold 1x4 shotgun scope. Yet that Hogue stock seems to soak up some recoil, and the rifle is actually fun to shoot, but not too much at one session. This is definately not a rifle for a small person like a woman, or the uninitiated. I'm pretty sure one shot is all that a woman could get out of it in an emergency, so I don't recommend this solution to everyone, especially a family. The shotgun is a better choice, IMO, and those Brennekes will break bone plenty good.

Once, I was messing around with those Brenneke slugs, and testing them to become familiar. There was an old pickup there which had been long abandoned, and already had many bullet holes in it, and it had no engine. I shot that thing from several angles, to try to go through as many layers of the sheet metal as I could find. Every shot at any angle perferated that truck completely, leaving a rather big hole on exit. I was impressed. I also tested some on some two inch thick boards, stacked together. It penetrates a lot of soft pine lumber, and makes a lot of splinters too, without deforming the lead much at all. Apparantly those lead slugs are alloyed or otherwise hardened.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted:
If I saw a bear, I would get my gun ready, and the moment it appeared there was danger, I would shoot. I'm not saying I would shoot at, say, 200 yards. But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

The problem is, you don't KNOW if it is charging. YOU are the intruder into its home, and probably 98 0r 99 times out of 100, it is just trying to scare you off, to protect itself or ITS family.

So you think that is a good reason to kill it even if there is no need to?

You might want to reflect on that for a while before putting it all over the internet.

I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck here, but I'd ask you a question: To you, is human life more valuable than animal life?

For me, the answer is yes. If we can't agree on that, any further discussion won't get very far.

If my initial post came off as being too strong, my apologies. I'm truly not advocating just going out and being trigger-happy on all bears. It's just that I'd 10 times rather kill a bear than have it maul/chew/kill me or those around me.

My point is, if I felt threatened by a bear, I'd sooner shoot him and stop him, then wait to see if he pulled up 10 feet from my nose and asked to shake hands.

OTOH, I would not (unless I was hunting) shoot a bear that was not bothering me; in that case, Live and Let Live.

Oh, and with regard to range, I wasn't thinking of shotgun range, I was thinking more of heavy rifle range; I see what you mean about 50 yards being a long shot for a shotgun.

Anyway, I hope that helps explain to you where I'm coming from. If you wish I'd be happy to discuss this further via PM.

Back to the original question: My hunting buddy uses a custom .358 STA built on a Remington action for elk and black bear. These are lower 48 bears and aren't nearly the size of a grizzly and are quite a bit smaller than a mature bull elk. The results that I have seen have all produced quick and humane kills. My friend is also an excellent shot and an even better hunter.
I have used a 338WM and a 300 Weatherby on the same hunts and have no complaints about the performance of either one.
I have shot the STA and it is a handful but not unmanageable. The rifle is a good shooter and has excellent trajectory for a 35 caliber. So, based only on my personal experience I would go with the 358 STA.

I think these discussions of custom rifles, and wildcat cartridges are interesting, and useful in the right context. Such rifles serve a much broader use than merely a camping tool for family bear protection. My favorite wildcat, within the class of 35 cal magnums discussed, is my 9.3x338. See the post under McSwirleys in custom rifles.

However, this link shows the perfect family bear protection tool: http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=248819353

Heck, the custom reamer and dies for this wildcat dream rifle, supposedly for a family vacation, will cost near the tactical Nova in the link, and it's ready to go out-of-the-box.

I certainly have been guilty of spending money on more rifle than actually needed, and rationalizing a purchase, so perhaps that qualifies me to declare this proposed custom rifle in a wildcat is sheer folly, in relation to the stated purposes.

Sure, there are other ways to rationalize it, but be honest about it. If you just want it, that's good enough, but it ain't the best choice for bear protection, IMO.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Davis Goertzen:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted:
If I saw a bear, I would get my gun ready, and the moment it appeared there was danger, I would shoot. I'm not saying I would shoot at, say, 200 yards. But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

The problem is, you don't KNOW if it is charging. YOU are the intruder into its home, and probably 98 0r 99 times out of 100, it is just trying to scare you off, to protect itself or ITS family.

So you think that is a good reason to kill it even if there is no need to?

You might want to reflect on that for a while before putting it all over the internet.

I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck here, but I'd ask you a question: To you, is human life more valuable than animal life?

For me, the answer is yes. If we can't agree on that, any further discussion won't get very far.

If my initial post came off as being too strong, my apologies. I'm truly not advocating just going out and being trigger-happy on all bears. It's just that I'd 10 times rather kill a bear than have it maul/chew/kill me or those around me.

My point is, if I felt threatened by a bear, I'd sooner shoot him and stop him, then wait to see if he pulled up 10 feet from my nose and asked to shake hands.

OTOH, I would not (unless I was hunting) shoot a bear that was not bothering me; in that case, Live and Let Live.

Oh, and with regard to range, I wasn't thinking of shotgun range, I was thinking more of heavy rifle range; I see what you mean about 50 yards being a long shot for a shotgun.

Anyway, I hope that helps explain to you where I'm coming from. If you wish I'd be happy to discuss this further via PM.

I already understood where you were coming from.

Basically, you are apparently willing to go into bear territory while so scared of the bears and so unsure of your ability to deal with them up close that if one false charges toward you at 50 yards out, you are going to illegally kill it and then try to hide the evidence.

That has little to do with the value of bear life or human life. It has to do with whether bear country is somewhere you should be at this point in your life.

I suggest you talk to AF&G and find out what is an acceptable legal "DEAD line" in their eyes.

If you feel that is too close for you to abide by, then I suggest you either work at improving your skills and confidence to the point where you feel secure with observing that legal Dead Line advice from them, or that you not go to Alaska.

Very simple. Why put yourself in that position if you aren't prepared to deal with a quite normal scenario of that area?

Not calling you "bad" or "cowardly", or anything else negative. Just suggesting you reflect a bit on whether you belong in grizzly territory.

I don't see why an animal should die needlessly because you aren't prepared to deal with the facts of life in that arena.

I know that's awfully blunt, but that's how I see it. A good honest self-appraisal often saves folks a lot of needless trouble. I hope you don't get in any trouble, and I hope you don't get hurt. I also hope no grizzly bears get hurt when doing nothing wrong, either.

Best wishes, and I don't see any need to discuss it further. You are your own man. Do whatever you think is really right. Just remember, every action, good or bad, has its consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by Davis Goertzen:
I respect what you guys are saying, and obviously each of you have more experience than I do, but it seems to me that someone who waits until the bear is 15 FEET AWAY before shooting is taking his life (and that of those around him) very much in his hands. If I saw a bear, I would get my gun ready, and the moment it appeared there was danger, I would shoot. I'm not saying I would shoot at, say, 200 yards. But if it was 50 yards and charging, you bet your life I'd shoot, until the bear was stone cold dead or I was out of ammo.

My 2 policies would be:

Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up.

What Happens in the Mountains (Wilderness, etc) Stays in the Mountains.

During my first year of college, I decided to take the summer off and go fishing and hiking just out side of Glacier National Park. I saw a number of bears but most were rather a far distance off and most often, running away from me. The one time I did have a bear encounter was when I was fishing, having good luck with some brook trout . I noticed the bear coming up the stream about 50 yds away, heading directly toward me. The only protection I had at the time was a 38 special pistol and the moment I saw him I dropped my rod and had the pistol at ready. I backed away from the stream slowly as I watched him close in on my fish bucket. The dammed thing was probably only 15 feet or so away as he gnawed down the bulk of my catch. During the whole ordeal, the bears demeanor was calm and non threatening, he just wanted my fish! So yes, you can get close to bears and not have to shoot them.
The rifle I am in the process of putting together is mostly justifying the purchase of a new gun. I don’t anticipate having any close encounters with bears but then again, anything can happen. I just want to be prepared if something does, especially when my kids safety is concerned. I chose the 358 caliber due its versatility, not overkill on elk, good on black bear (if I ever draw a tag) and doesn’t kill my shoulder (though little does anymore compared to my 450NE).

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I already understood where you were coming from.

Just remember, every action, good or bad, has its consequences.

Yes you do. Good job with words, AC.

That's the reason I go on with the story about my friend, and his wife, and my opinions about this. I think it's a potentially serious issue here in Alaska and Canada too, and parts of the Western states such as Montana. Anything is potentially serious when human lives may be at stake. Then there's the bear's life too, whether it's of value to anyone or not. Killing something for nothing is certainly wrong, and a waste.

So, poping a bear, supposedly in self-defense is a serious matter, worthy of preconsideration, if one puts himself in such situations, like camping or hiking in Alaska wilds.

Since I've lived here, I have heard about several incidents of newcomers or tourists shooting a bear, and it gets away wounded. That's a scenerio that scares me, especially because there are also unreported incidents like that.

Practically everyone agrees that these are very tough animals, and the probability that a shooting incident will end with uncertainty of the status of the bear, dead or alive and angry, increases with the range at which the shot is taken, and who is doing the shooting - a hunter or a tourist or whatever, and the firearm and ammo too - lots of variables.

In summary, I think people ought not shoot unless they have to, and if so finish the job if possible, and certainly report it, even if and especially if the bear gets away wounded, so others can be warned, especially in popular areas.

KB

I wouldn't get an expensive custom rifle on a Ruger action or in one of those oddball calibers. You might want to sell it some day. M70 in 375 would be my choice for bear flattening power in a marketable rifle

Unsure about the availibility of ammunition, but why not the 350 Rem Mag. From what I read many years ago, the 350Mag combined with the Rem 600 (You could alway get a Rem 673) was used extensively in Alaska. Short, light (it will kick like a mule). Should work will. IIRC, gives 35 Whelen performance in the 600

A friend who I went to high school with sent me this article a couple of years ago. He is a neighbor of the guy in the article.

Bear encounters are variable. I doubt that a bitch slap would have worked on this one:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/...to=3#node-1001334546

Here are a couple of the better comments:

From sandman wrote 2 years 1 week ago:
Mr Brush, I'm glad to see you survived your experience to help educate others to the hazards of living in bear country. The condition of the animal explains a great deal as to the reason for the attack. Even the most powerfull and dangerous animals decline with age and illness and survive by taking advantage of easier to aquire meals. This was obviously not the wisest decision ever made by this bear. I commend you on your shooting skills with such a heavy weapon (I myself am more comfortable with my .44 mag). Your concerns are well placed as to the outcome of a confrontation between such an animal and another member of your family. It could have had a very different and tragic outcome. Years ago I remember an artical in F/S where the merits of different weapons where tested in the event of a simular situation and it was determined that MOST people would not have the presence of mind to steady and fire a large handgun or rifle effectively and that the best weapon to carry was a short barreled pump-action shotgun loaded with hi quality slugs for maximum stopping power, speed, and deployability. (This was before the advent of PEPPER/BEAR SPRAY) I guess what I'm trying to say is you prepair and train your family for the area you live in and the situations that could happen weather you live in the wilds of ALASKA or a BIG CITY. No-one lives in a vacume and just because your paranoid doesn't mean something or someone isn't out to get you. BE PREPAIRED.


From jwallen wrote 1 year 36 weeks ago:
From the look of the lower lip in the picture it might have been injured and unable to feed well. It was starving and did what it thought it needed to do. Do not feel bad about killing it. Northwest of you a young man was killed on a seismic crew several years ago. It was winter and the crew walked past the bear's den. It let the first one pass and attacked and killed the second one with a bite to the skull. Twenty or so years ago a local outdoor writer, Craig Medred (ADN) had a bear charge him on the other side of the river from you and he was able to stop the charge with his Freedom Arms .454 Casul and one of the bullets backed out and jammed the cylinder. It takes a strong crimp to hold the bullets in the cases so they won't back out under recoil. It seems worse if you have a light grip on the pistol as it free recoils more violently. People will say you are lucky, but remember "chance favors the prepared mind". Sometimes the hide will be tanned and auctioned off by ADF&G if it is salvageable. How long did it take for the adrenalin to wear off?

Hey.

First off congrats on graduation this year, I know how much a pain in the ass it is, I am back for my second degree.

Though 35 cal tough choice, like most a 375 would be at the top of my list, though a 358 UMT is an interesting round, great on elk and whatever else you can find,

There was a great article about the round, if I find it I will post it up for you.

Matt

I definitly agree with Kabluewy on this one...I mostly carry a Mossy 3.5" pump loaded with my own 750 to 1000 gr SOLID heat treated hard cast slugs from Dixie slugs and another caster, intermixed with Mr. Gates "factory" offerings around my place and in the woods as we have black bear and cougar around.

I make sure I make lots of noise when mucking about in the woods, and a trained dog. I've seen lots of tracks of both, but only one black bear and a couple of dead young cougars who got in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think 73 cal is none too large in this case, discounting the fact that you can kill a bear with an '06 easy enough under normal "controlled" conditions.

I also have rifles in 45-70, 450 M and 458A I grab, but I really like my "new" BLR 450 M as I can load it to 458 WM velocities (almost) with 500 and 550 gr bullets and so far I haven't been able to jam it in any position I put it in...which can't be said of my Marlin.

Everytime I see a question about "What Pistol should I use in Bear country for 'Protection'" I shake my head, because I KNOW that person has NEVER been up close to even a stuffed black bear specimen much less a standing brown bear or griz or they would be asking if a 50 BMG is large enough...and most people aren't fast enough to do anything at all in a surprise attack anyway.

I also agree to 375 cal as being minimum size I would carry.

Luck

I'd grab a Ruger Hawkeye in .375 Ruger and never look back.

I have a pre 64 Winchester in .338 and I would just use that. But if wanting to buy new, I believe I'd step up to the Ruger and maybe even go stainless and toss a Mickie handle on it.

I wouldn't even consider a wildcat - and I've been an ardent handloader since the 60's...

My $.02

Sounds like good advice to me

I had a 358 Norma and it was a beast to shoot. Kicked the living sh@*% out of me. I shoot a 450 Dakota and I'm not recoil shy but that was a really uncomfortable rifle.
I'll agree with the 35 Whelen or a 9.3x62. May not have as much zip but they do the job.I would never feel undergunned in North America with either. They are lots cheaper to shoot too.
As previously stated,the surprise is what gets you killed with bears. Not that your weapon won't kill it. You never get a shot off before hhe's on you.

You folks don't think about bears where I live but we have some big black bears. A friend was recently hog hunting late in the day and took a shot at about70 yds. He hit the pig a little far back and it ran into the palmettos. He circled around to where he thought it would come out and waded into neck deep palmettos. He saw the bushes moving about 40 yds off and waited until he could be sure of the shot. At 15 yards or so he realizd his pig had become a 400# or so black bear. He was afreid to shoot because he wuld not have time to get off another shot He waited until the last second to put the muzzle in the critter's mouth. The bear passed at arms length to his right and left him alone.
The bear was moving right along and the whole thing was over inless time than it tell it.
He was carrying a Model 94 in 32 Special.