Ok I have decided it is time to fill 308 Caliber hole created by my ill-fated 300WSMag attempt. Several of my own wildcats PDKs (slightly larger than a Gibbs) and factory rounds bridge it. 25-06, 260PDK, 2 7X57s, 280PDK, 7STW, 340PDK, 338Wmag, 358Norma, 375PDK and I'm looking for a 375H&H. So there is that nice hole at 308.

I have a MKX magnum acion waiting for for a barrel. I've always loved my 358Norma and lean towards a 308 Norma. But, the 300Wmag would be easier and a little cheaper.

What are your thought and why?

The Norma is the round that the WM should have been. I feel it is slightly superior because the Norma will do anything the WM will with just a tad less powder and more importantly because it has a longer neck for seating the bullet into.

That being said, I wouldnt choose either one. Reason being is that the 30-338 is nearly identical to the Norma and brass for it on this side of the pond is a snap.

From a simplicity/ resale stand point though the WM makes more sense if such things matter to you.

You must wondering because of the succes of the .300WM, bad design, but good american marketing are the parents of the Winchester, but the Norma with its normal necklength, little more efficiente case is the better cartridge - in my opinion!Almost identical to the .30-338 and in some guns interchangable, the reforming from 7 RemMag and the .338 WM is no great problem! Sorry that this wonderful Norma is nearly disappeared.

The .300 Win Mag is at its best in a magazine sized for the H & H case (around 3.6" or so). While its factory specs will fit in a "standard" magazine of about 3.35", it does much better when you can seat the bullets out where they ought to be.

My recommendation would be to use the .308 Norma (or .30-338, as either can be redily formed from .338 brass) if your magazine is less than 3.4", and use the .300 Win Mag if your magazine is 3.6" or better.

I'd like anyone who claims that the "short" neck of the 300 Winchester Magnum is a deficiency in REAL, as opposed to theoretical, terms to provide some evidence of their claim.

Sound advice from Stonecreek. The 300 Win comes into its own in longer magazines but I gotta agree with HP Shooter that the neck length is not a real world issue.

I have both and would get rid of neither.

The 300 Win Mag because it is my favorite rifle.
It has all the power in a 308 bullet I need.

I've loaded for years for my friends 300Wmag. Never saw an issue with the neck. Using load tech it appears that loaded to the same COL the wmag will hold 1.5-2 grains more powder. Just choose a powder that use 100% or more capacity.

I normally use Norma brass in my 358 but have used 338. The neck is just a little shorter.

I just ran Loadtech on the 300Wmag. For a 180gr moving from 3.34 to 3.6" gave a jump of 150fps.

That "short neck" mumbo-jumbo is an ignorant old wives' tale from the 1960s. Anyone with real 300 Win. Mag. experience knows that neck length is a non-issue with this cartridge. It has no effect on any aspect of performance whatsoever.

The 300 Win. Mag. has greater case capacity than the 308 Norma, and ammo and brass is much more widely available. The 308 Norma offers no performance advantage at all, unless in your dreams you are awarded trophies for pole-vaulting over mouse droppings. Load both cartridges to their full potential and there is virutally no difference in performance between the two rounds, both in terms of accuracy as well as velocity.

The only place in N. America where the 308 Norma ever sorta caught on as a hunting cartridge was in Canada, and there you run into a surprising number of rifles in that chambering. But even in Canada, the 300 Win. Mag. is vastly more popular, and ammo is much more widely distributed.

So unless you must have something different and love the challenge of locating brass and ammo, and paying a much higher price for same when you do, go with the 300 Win. Mag............

AD

Allen's points are true but...

I've always been a fan of the 308 Norma Mag. I'll be the first to admit that it offers nothing over the 300 Win Mag, and it would be a more expensive affair. But, I love all of the catridges that are based off of that particular case.

264 Win Mag
7mm Remington Mag
308 Norma Mag
338 Win Mag
358 Norma Mag
458 Win Mag

Throw in the wildcats, 30-338 Win Mag, 375 Taylor, and the 416 Taylor, that's all I can think of. Are there more? I'm sure there are.

If a person was going to build a 308 Norma, he would have to be a handloader, brass is available from Norma, and if it was me, I would probably leave the barrel un-stamped. If I ever decided to sell the rifle, I'd have it reamed out to a 300 Win Mag. Be a lot easier to sell.

I've toyed with the idea of building a 308 Norma many times, but so far, practicality has won out.

However, I do have the perfect Model 70 Classic for the project right now...

quote:

unless in your dreams you are awarded trophies for pole-vaulting over mouse droppings

I like that!

ramrod340
308 Norma mag would be my choice. How about a 358 Norma mag to match

Cheers
/JOHAN

Johan, all these Ya - oh, sorry, all these americans should read about these two cartridges in the new Norma reloading book!

Allen,
tell em how you see em!!!
And I agree. The difference is the shooter's choice, for anything of measurable significance. The norma (let's all agree there's ZERO diff in the 30-338 and 308 norma for this discussion) is a great round. The 300 win is a great round.

When I was faced with this about 12 or so years ago, I had wanted the norma, as I had read the tripe on the 308 norma was designed for the 1903a3, and had read and read that. Went to my smith, told him what I wanted... he told me it was a great idea, and if I bought the reamer ($100 bucks then was ALOT of money) and he had the 300 win reamer.

It's one of the few guns I have that has shot several to many boxes of factory ammo, asI lucked into some on closeout.

I shoot 180s at 3000fps, with a 23.75 barrel, don't need any more. Headstamped brass, factory ammo, no need to buy a new reamer, and a .308 class magnum...

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Monastery-Forester:
all these americans should read about these two cartridges in the new Norma reloading book!

Yeah, that would be an impartial source of information.............

Thanks for the input guys. I do believe that the norma will not do anything the wmag won't. With a longer magazine and heavier bullets the wmag has an advantage. To me the 30-338 and 308 Norma are the same and I would have no problem using 338 cases. Having factory ammo doesn't mean anything to me. Heck half my rifles are wildcats anyway. Factory ammo has never been a problem.

I plan on getting a chambered L. Walther barrel. So Norma or Wmag makes no difference. My friends have always called me a little different. LOL

Johan, I have a nice 358 Norma sitting in the safe with a vacant spot next to it.

All of your pros/cons are the same ones I have been hashing over in my head. Guess the bottomline is the 308 Norma just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

JBabcock, sometimes life isn't so all-fired "definate" after all!

Two of my local friends were 30-338 shooters, and one of them had a barrel on his that was, for whatever reason, REALLY fast. He could push out 200 gr. Noslers at 3000 fps.+, and pressures didn't seem overly high at all.

My outfitter friend, the late Bob Fontana of Cranbrook, BC, was a 308 Norma fan, and he owned one for many years. Bob hated the 7mm Rem. Mag. and claimed that cartridge didn't kill well, but he loved his 308 Norma........

AD

I have two 30-338's one on a FN and the other on a 1909 Argentine. This is a great round, easy to relaod for, 338 brass is cheap, and it has all the horsepower needed for N. American hunting.

I know the 30-338 is a wildcat, but it is a very practicle cat.

If I was doing a custom barrel, I wouldn't use the 308 Norma, not because there is anything wrong with the cartridge, its just the load data on it and the 30-338 are interchangable, and the 30-338 brass is a lot cheaper. Dies aren't a problem and like I said before it is a very easy round to reload for, and finding a chambering reamer will be easier than on the 308 Norma.

I always disagree with Allen on the 300 Win Mag, but I will say we are a sum of our experiences, and I had several sorry 300 Win Mags, and hated reloading for it and pounding my shoulder on the bench every time I changed out minor components, and my groups opened up. I will say Allen had similiar luck with the 280 Rem, which I have had great experiences with. We just agree to disagree on this point and move on, and based on our past experiences I don't think either of us will change our opinions.

One note on the 30-338 the US Army used this as a long distance match cartridge for years and they didn't stumble unto this by accident.

The extra case capacity of the Win Mag is a real word next gain of yent, as I can load the 30-338 to within 50 fps of the Win Mag. I was looking into my load stuff on my 30-338's a few months ago and realised I had never worked up any loads lighter than 180 gr on my rifles. I usually use 200 gr Nosler partitions on elk, and my light load is 180 grs.

If I came across a nice rifle already chambered for the 308 Norma, it would be a different story, and I wouldn't turn my nose up at it, but I just can't justify in my mind having a rifle chambered in it.

If I ever have another 30-338 chambered I am going to have a heavier match style rifle done up. This round is really capable at long range, I don't do any of this kind of hunting anymore, but a sweet 1000 yard rifle in this would still be a blast when I have the time to punch paper and get range time.

All said though, I know Allen isn't off base with his 300 Win Mags, and Ray A has used and likes this round also, so if you go that route get some load data from them.

If you really want to do up a classy 30 mag have you considered a 300 H&H? In my case I probably won't build one, as I have a couple of the 30-338's and I just don't see the purpose of me going into another 30 mag, but a 300 H&H is a class act.

In reality there just isn't that much difference between any of the standard length 30 mags to get excited about, they all are right in the same zone of performance, and any differences in the real world don't amount to a pile of beans, and personal preference is probably the best guide on selection.

quote:

He could push out 200 gr. Noslers at 3000 fps.+, and pressures didn't seem overly high at all.

Allen,

My FN demonstrates the same traits, it is a stock 30-06 barrel that I had the bolt face open up on and rechambered. My Argentine sports a Lilja barrel and is real close in fps, but the FN is faster and the 1909 is more accurate. But again 50 fps doesn't mean much. I am also getting slightly more than 3000 fps out of the FN, and just under 3000 on the Argentine. For some reason the Argentine does a tad better than the FN with the 180 gr fodder, go figure, every rifle is a story unto itself. And to make this even stranger both my rifles are cut with the same chamber reamer, I bought my smith the reamer and he did both rifles within a year of each other, and I think he only did one other barrel with that reamer, and I am pretty sure that was after he did my rifles, I would need to check that detail though.

I really want to get some time and work up some match 165-168 gr loads on this, just to see what happens.

Like I said if I did another I would want a Hall action and a heavy Hart barrel, but I know that would be a crew assisted weapon in the field, and be a specialised rifle.

The primary problem with the 300 WM to this day is that Winchester made the magazines too short. Of course they wanted a standard length cartridge and Norma beat them to the market with the obvious design.

The short neck on the 300 WM is more of a aesthetic choice that anything. A longer neck would be better but it's not the primary problem.

It's over now. The 300 WM is all moved in and everything. So either live with the rifle as is, make the magazine longer or even better get a new gun in 300 WSM.

Schromf, all branches of the U.S. armed forces currently use the 300 Win. Mag. for long-range target work. The reason: Inherent accuracy, and ready availability of high-quality brass.

Kenny Jarrett, for many years, stated that in his opinion the 300 Win. Mag. is the most inherently accurate and versatile factory big game cartridge.

It's certainly been the most accurate and fuss-free belted magnum I've ever worked with, I know that much, and my current pair of Echols-built rifles in 300 Win. Mag. shoot half-inch groups (three or five-shot @ 100 yds.) with the exact-same load: 180 gr. Nosler Partition Spitzers, W-W cases, Winchester WXR powder, and WLRM primers to 3100 fps and I zero for 250 yds. Echols built the magazine boxes with room to spare -- I seat the bullets to an OAL of 3.4645", which is .025" off the lands, and I still have more room in the box to seat the bullets further out as the throat starts to erode. This is a carefully considered desing feature, and a very bright idea that'll add a lot of useful barrel life in the years to come.

Savage, you are right about the early Model 70s in 300 Win. Mag. The throat was too short with many of those. The post-64s were better, and of course, this is a non-issue for Model 700s in 300 Win.........

AD

I would choose a .300 Win Mag. I have loaded for 2 .300 Win Mags and maybe I have been lucky, but both were very accurate and a couple of the easiest rifles I have ever loaded for. Just about everything shot well from 150-200 grains and had no problem equaling published velocities with book loads. I cannot say this about very many other rounds.

-Lou

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Schromf, all branches of the U.S. armed forces currently use the 300 Win. Mag. for long-range target work.

Neither the Army's Marksmanship Unit nor the Marine Corps Weapons Training Batallion currently use the 300 WM as a competition cartridge.

The majority of their long range marksmanship focus (beyond 600 yards) is service rifle shooting, and they do so using highly accurized M16s with 1/6.5 Kriegers and 80 and 90 grains bullets from Sierra and Jimmy Knox.

The other long range needs are met by Palma rifles (which must be in 308 Winchester) and dedicated LR guns for the Leech and Wimbledon cups mostly in 6.5-284.

The 300 Winchester Magnun is an outstanding game killer, and might even have some application in military sniping, but its days as a competitive cartridge are over.

No significant difference between the two.

You don't have a hole, but .30-338 would be my choice. I shot this beastie by pure accident. One day a target shooter needed an observer, so I said ok, I watched for some "squggles" or "commas" and later he let me squizze off a fair number of shots at 600yrd targets. Pretty impressive performance.
You need a big bore like .416Rem.

You can still get brass for the 308 Norma from Huntington's. Having a pair of 300mags finished up to match my pair of 30-338mags should be interesting. Still afew shooters using both for LR(1000yd) matches. Having shot the 30-338 more and it's a pretty easy round to load for, I just neck up 7mg brass. I've never been a fan of the 300mag owned afew factory rifles and just never got the groups or velocity had a chance to buy a custom and got some fairly nice groups so had these two build with a match chamber throated for certain bullet. Should be out of the shop next week having the Rem ejector moved then will be doing some chronographing. I've said this more than once if Win had neck the 338 case down before Fred did there wouldn't of been a 300mag. Rem pick up the 30-338 in a match 40x rifle and the army shot it for awhile also. If you build two rifles same barrel but one a 30-338 and other a 300mag they should shoot about the same groups and to me what it comes down to is which one you like or you may like both of them.

The long range team here is now shooting the 300 WSM as the largest round at 1000 yds. Perhaps in other competitons the 300 WM is still used.

As to the Norma mag or a 30/338 vrs the 300 WM I see it as just a logistics problem. Some do want a different gun so all of them will work but the discussion above that I made on a longer magazine for the 300 WM is the path of common sense.

As to accuracy I don't buy the statement that the 300 WM has any particular inherent accuracy advantage over other similar belted cartridges.

The luck of the draw on which barrel you get will probably have a greater impact on performance than will be the choice between these two cartidges.

I never thought the short neck of the win mag was a problem. Only in books and magazines.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Ok I have decided it is time to fill 308 Caliber hole created by my ill-fated 300WSMag attempt. Several of my own wildcats PDKs (slightly larger than a Gibbs) and factory rounds bridge it. 25-06, 260PDK, 2 7X57s, 280PDK, 7STW, 340PDK, 338Wmag, 358Norma, 375PDK and I'm looking for a 375H&H. So there is that nice hole at 308.

I have a MKX magnum acion waiting for for a barrel. I've always loved my 358Norma and lean towards a 308 Norma. But, the 300Wmag would be easier and a little cheaper.

What are your thought and why?

I read your message on the forum I am am to interest by Wildcat P.D.K
What mean initials P.D.K?
For created you have use 308 Winchester or Gibbs but that it?
The East of that it case they can form them?
260 P.D.K, _ 280 P.D.K, _ 340 P.D.K, _ 375 P.D.K, _

Mercie if you could give me information

quote:

I read your message on the forum I am am to interest by Wildcat P.D.K
What mean initials P.D.K?

This is simply a wildcat case I worked up myself. The PDK are my initials. Back in 1981 after playing with a 280AI then a 280JRS(John Sundra) I decided to push the 280 case further. Starting with a 280 case at a max length of 2.54" I set the neck at .28 then added a 40deg shoulder and blew the shoulder out to .458" instead of the normal .454". Here is the shoulder area of it compared to the 280, 280AI and 280Gibbs. The Gibbs is a touch shorter because he used 06 cases.
.

I had not heard of the Gibbs at the time if I had I probably wouldn't have built mine. My net capacity is about 1.5grs greater than the Gibbs. Gross is more because the neck is longer.

After a couple years I had my 280 reamer altered to allow me to use it for 240-416 then using a neck/throater to finish. I never did a 270 or 308. The case was way overbore for a 240 and 257. My friend in Alaska has the 416. A lot of my work was done with the same rifle just swapping barrels. The ones I listed are the ones I currently have together in working order. The 280 & 340 are my favorites.

Extinct vs. commonly found, big dilemma!
The .308Swede is nice in minty Browning 'Safari Grade', but.....

Thanks for the explanation, rr340. For a while there I thought you were talking about the 505 Gibbs case! I thought I was nuts wanting a 416/505 and thought you were going on about 270s up to 375s!

quote:

For a while there I thought you were talking about the 505 Gibbs case

My case neck down to 243 distroyed the throat in just a couple hunderd rounds. Can't imagine what a 505 would do neck to 270. But then there are those that neck down the 50BMG.

I have "little" wildcats compared to you guys.

I would hate to unload custom .308Norma, I'm not very good at selling ice to Eskimos!

quote:

I would hate to unload custom .308Norma, I'm not very good at selling ice to Eskimos

This thread started in July05. Since that time the 308Norma barreled action is now sitting in the stock blank waiting foe me to finish some wood changes.
I have no plan to unload it. Some day it will go to my son, stepson or son in laws. If they would rather have a 300Wmag then it would take just a few$$ to make the change.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

I would hate to unload custom .308Norma, I'm not very good at selling ice to Eskimos

This thread started in July05. Since that time the 308Norma barreled action is now sitting in the stock blank waiting foe me to finish some wood changes.
I have no plan to unload it. Some day it will go to my son, stepson or son in laws. If they would rather have a 300Wmag then it would take just a few$$ to make the change.

good for you. I bought a 03A3 with something like this in mind. I like the Norma case - will probably do a 30-338 for brass. I have 2 06's and the sensible thing is to open up the Husky mauser, but the Springfield has a bad barrel and is the logical choice, since the Husky is a tackdriver as is. Good shooting.

The Captains and the Kings depart. Still stands thine ancient sacrifice, an humble and a contrite heart - RK. I love my 375.

I had a M'17 sporter with headspace questions,so I chose the Norma for just the reasons that Stonecreek mentioned.Since I handload,ammo is no problem.I don't mind the 300WM headstamp either.