I have read numerous recent threads and posts on the 338-06 (standard) cartridge and note a big discrepancy in velocities listed.
Hodgdon’s website barely reaches 2800 fps maximum for the 200 grain bullet and mid 2700’s for the 210.
My requirements are for an elk-type cartridge and I have narrowed the choice to a 338-06 and a 300 H&H. The rifle will be carried in rough mountains and needs to be accurate and ideally shoot a 200 gr bullet at between 2800 and 2900 fps. It should also be reasonably comfortable to carry.
I do have a 338 Win Mag (Sako 75 SSS) that I am trading in because I just don’t like it after years of trying to get used to it.
My question is, what realistic velocities can I expect with 200 to 210 bullets?

quote:

Hodgdon’s website barely reaches 2800 fps maximum for the 200 grain bullet and mid 2700’s for the 210.

The Hodgdon website does in fact show three loads above 2800 FPS and all of them loaded to 60,000-65,000 PSI.....and this is with a 200 grain bullet.

I have great trust in Hodgdon's data as being accurate......

IMO if you actually get the 200 grain bullets to 2,800 then that's all you are likely to get. (at a safe loading pressure).

if your need is for speed (200gr @ 2900fps) then seems the 338 win mag would be obvious choice. easy to re-load and many options for guns? Easier than either 300HH or 338/06. And, you could build a shorter lighter gun, (comfortable to carry gun) similar to a Ruger Alaskan.

I have a 98 with a 27 inch barrel My vel for 250s can't get above 2450 with pressure signs around 2700 for a 210 nosler. I tried a lot of differant powders.

Lots of owers here seem to get a lot more vel then I do.

I don't know that you need to be concerned with velocities over what they show. My wife has used a 338-06 for 6 years now and even preferres it for deer hunting. Her load is 2780-2790 and she took larger animals out to just over 300 yards with, all but one, one shot.

I think your selection of bullet is more important than a but more velocity. I know it does translate into some reduction in trajectory but in this case it is not significant.

I just had a 338-06 built on a Remington action with a Hart barrel and it looks like it will shoot that same bullet weight at around 2875 safely. I figure that is an easy 350 yards with the right shooting conditions, if I can get the correct rest etc.

I like the 338 calibers what I have done is to have purchased a 338 RUM years ago and that gun is very carryable and will DROP and elk past 1/4 mile. So you need to decide how far you need to shoot.

While you might get the rare 338-06 to move a 200gr at 2875-2900 it will be hard to do in a 24" at safe pressures. My 340PDK can do better than 2900 but like the Gibbs it is 14% larger in capacity than the 338-06.

From a factory 338 if you really feel you must have 2900+ I would look to the 338Wmag. For a 338Wmag Federal list the 210 at 2930. Hornady list the Super Performance 200 at 3030. Like I said if 2900 is a must look to the 338Wmag.

In a 24 in. barrel, it isn't hard to get to 2800 fps with a 200 grain bullet in a .338-06. Most 338 WM loads with a 210 will barely break 2900 fps in most rifles, mine included. A 200-210 at 2750-2800 will have plenty of reach and punch for any use.

I've got a .338-06AI with a 24" krieger barrel. I've never tried a 210 gr, but I shoot 225gr accubonds @2600 fps. I use H4350 at max book for a non-AI load. These group well with a small ES.

I went up to a few grains more than that (it's an AI after all), with no overt pressure signs, but my groups suffered. I settled on the load that grouped best. I could probably do some experimenting to find a faster load that groups as well, but I don't think it worth the trouble.

When I had this rifle built, I intended to use this specific bullet. Per my gunsmith's instructions, I loaded a dummy cartridge out to the max OAL that would fit in my magazine, and he chambered the new barrel to fit. I also told him I did NOT want to turn necks, so he sized the neck of the chamber to the size of the dummy round (call it mildly-tight).

-nosualc

I have no experience with the standard 338-06 but I had a 338-06 AI for many years and was never able to reach 2900 with 200 gr bullets.

I could comfortably get to 2880 with 64.0 gr of R-19 and a Nosler BT. Highly compressed load, very consistent but in a 25.5 inch barrel. Because of the long magazine length in a Sauer 200, I could load them out pretty far to maximize case volume.

I too have a 338-06 AI. Real velocities are 2850 for the 200 gr Ballistic Tip ahead of 57 gr IMR 4320 and with a 225 Hornady Interbond 2725 fps. That load has 61.0 gr of H4350. No pressure signs on either. Hope this helps. Good luck.

If the 200 grain bullet choice is that important to you than go with the 300 H&H. I would opt. for a 26" 30-06 AI with 200 grain accubonds. This combo will just meet your 2800 fps criteria and offer better ballistics coefficient and terminal sectional density over the 338/200's.

I would also go with 338-06 but I would use 225 to 250 bullets and live with the trajectory. It all depends upon whats important to you. To me its bullet performance not velocity.

Thanks for the info.
I am not obsessed with 2800 fps +, but the point is that if it is only barely achievable what is quite likely to happen is that 1) our South African powders will be slower and 2) the best accuracy will be a bit off maximum, with the result that the velocity may well be only 2700 fps at best.
This is my kudu rifle and needs to comfortably shoot 300 yds at wounded animals in rough terrain. i.e. no time to think about trajectory.

Max velocities will always vary from one rifle to another. But the 35 Whelen is neck and neck with a 338-06 and I can easily exceed 2800 fs with a 200 gn slug in my Whelen. That is nothing to bock at. In fact they go down like they were hit with a freight train..

My load is 56.5 grains of RL 15 with a 200gr Hornady SP and I get 2880 across the chrony from my barrel, Hornady lists 57.1 grains as max. Hornady list 2900 fps as max velocity for the .338-06. My rifle is a 1903 custom with 24" Lilja barrel.

quote:

This is my kudu rifle and needs to comfortably shoot 300 yds at wounded animals in rough terrain. i.e. no time to think about trajectory.

No disrespect intended, but I have to laugh at posts like this. According to Nosler ballistic tables, the difference in drop with the 210 Partition fired at 2800 fps and 2700 fps at 300 yards is only 18 mm. This makes absolutely ZERO difference in the field. You will not have to "think about trajectory" with the 2700 fps load.

My 22" .338-06 on a M7600 comfortably shoots 200 and 210 grain bullets at 2725 fps. It has had no problems killing moose and caribou quickly.
.

quote:

This makes absolutely ZERO difference in the field

I take your point. However, I still want a cartridge/ bullet combination in that general velocity range as I have a 270 Win for other work.
That said,accuracy is important and creates confidence and, within reason, supercedes velocity.
One thing different to US gunlovers is that we make a major commitment when buying a firearm in South Africa. There is no easy trading it in if you are unhappy and so I would like to reduce the variables as much as possible before starting the long process (sometimes years) of acquiring a rifle.

I easily get 3000 fps with the 250's, then I wake up.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
My load is 56.5 grains of RL 15 with a 200gr Hornady SP and I get 2880 across the chrony from my barrel, Hornady lists 57.1 grains as max. Hornady list 2900 fps as max velocity for the .338-06. My rifle is a 1903 custom with 24" Lilja barrel.

I thought this was a bit much so I checked it in my Hornady manual....it's dead nuts correct....and with a 23 1/2" barrel in a 1898 Mauser.....and that velocity was achieved with three different powders!!!

Also they show five different powders that achieve 2,700 FPS with the 225 grain bullets. Now that's some muscle from the old '06 case!

Key item to remember is the Hornady 200gr SP is 1.138" long the Nosler 200 Accubond is 1.34" loaded to the same OAL the Hornady bullet starts with 7% higher net case capacity. That is almost the same gain you get by going to an AI. So you give up BC for a touch more velocity.

Another way of saying it DON"T take your Hornady data and stick an Accubond in front of it. An accubond with the Hornady load behind it has a 16% higher pressure. Safe goes to dangerous.

Yes the Hornady bullets are a little short compared to some of the other bullets. However, I'll give up a little BC because most of the distances I shoot with the .338-06 the little I give up isn't going to amount to anything. I really try to stay around 300 yards or less since I can set this load up for that and not have to worry about adjusting the scope. Past 300 yards I'd prefer the .300 H&H running a 200 grain NAB at the same speed has the BC to keep the trajectory at least 10" flatter to 500 yards.

quote:

give up a little BC because most of the distances I shoot with the .338-06 the little I give up isn't going to amount to anything.

I sure wasn't saying anything was wrong with it. Simply stating the short bullet allows you the higher velocity. If the majority of your shots are less than 300yds then they are basically equal. Past that the Accubond pulls ahead. But not by that much maybe 60fps faster at 500yds. Nothing will ever know the difference when you hit it.

For me chambering, caliber, bullet type, velocity they are all a series of compromises when we select a rifle and bullet combination.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

give up a little BC because most of the distances I shoot with the .338-06 the little I give up isn't going to amount to anything.

I sure wasn't saying anything was wrong with it. Simply stating the short bullet allows you the higher velocity. If the majority of your shots are less than 300yds then they are basically equal. Past that the Accubond pulls ahead. But not by that much maybe 60fps faster at 500yds. Nothing will ever know the difference when you hit it.

For me chambering, caliber, bullet type, velocity they are all a series of compromises when we select a rifle and bullet combination.

I didn't think you were saying there was anything wrong. I was just stating why I used the bullet over other 200 grain choices. Since the OP is looking for a 300 yard rifle I think this load could work for him if the bullets are available to him. I can't imagine anything elk sized walking away for a well placed Hornady 200 grain .338 caliber bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Key item to remember is the Hornady 200gr SP is 1.138" long the Nosler 200 Accubond is 1.34" loaded to the same OAL the Hornady bullet starts with 7% higher net case capacity. That is almost the same gain you get by going to an AI. So you give up BC for a touch more velocity.

Another way of saying it DON"T take your Hornady data and stick an Accubond in front of it. An accubond with the Hornady load behind it has a 16% higher pressure. Safe goes to dangerous.

This post is a real enlightenment....and well stated.....actually I wasn't at all believing that the change of bullet could raise pressures 16%.....and if one is loading to 65,000 PSI then it's as stated....DANGEROUS.....it simply bears repeating.

quote:

actually I wasn't at all believing that the change of bullet could raise pressures 16%

If you switch from a x 200gr to a y 200gr and the shape and length are close then the pressure change will be small. However in this case the Accubond is almost 18% longer. Loaded to the same OAL the only place for the bullet to go is in the case and greatly reduces the net capacity.

Karoo,
I have a 338/06 and with the old style Barnes 200gr X bullet and 58gr 0f IMR 4064 I get 2840fps from my 22 inch barreled rifle. I took it to Africa twice and killed 10 0f the large African antelope with it plus elk and deer here in the US. It kills way better than you think it should at 2800fps. You should be able to get 2800fps with a 210gr Nosler or 210gr Barnes TS

quote:

Barnes 200gr X bullet and 58gr 0f IMR 4064

Ouch that is a work up to load.

Guys, I have to tell you that it is my humble opinion that barrel to barrel makes a big difference in how much velicity you will ACTUALLY GET OUT THE MUZZLE, as in chronographed velocity not "book velocity".

As with the original X-bullets and even the second generation bullets they shot well in a really good or match barrel but several std. factory barrels were pathetic. With the current TSX's they seem to shoot in anything I have and all but two of my buddies guns. And we're talking several calibers and several guns.

I can also tell you that chronographing the same caliber with the same load (at say 2.5% below max for instance) gave significantly different velicities. A couple years ago when a bunch of us got 270's and 30-06's together. With all components the same and loads the same it was amazing.

I'll repeat myself that if your not going to be shooting over 300 yards 100fps velocity is not anything to sweat over. If you have good accuracy and I'm talking a 3-shot group under and inch your good to go.

Figure the drop Sighted dead on at 200 yards and the distance high and low at 100 and 300 respectively at say 2750 and 2850 with a 200 or 210 bullet and it's insignificant. Heck, under hunting conditions your BODY MOVEMENT WILL EFFECT WHERE THAT BULLET LANDS MORE THAN THE 100FPS IN VELOCITY.

But, my experience has shown me and several other guys-on the chronograph screen-that to squeeze that extra but of velocity out of a barrel you have to have a great factory barrel or AN AFTER MARKET/MATCH/SPECIFIC TWIST BARREL FOR A PARTICULAR BULLET WEIGHT, BARREL you will get those extra fps without pressure; if not be happy with the best you can get safely and go hunting.

quote:

Guys, I have to tell you that it is my humble opinion that barrel to barrel makes a big difference in how much velicity you will ACTUALLY GET OUT THE MUZZLE, as in chronographed velocity not "book velocity".

This is a good post.

quote:

Guys, I have to tell you that it is my humble opinion that barrel to barrel makes a big difference in how much velicity you will ACTUALLY GET OUT THE MUZZLE, as in chronographed velocity not "book velocity".

No doubt about it. Trying to compare to book ro two different rifles just gives you one or two data points. Doesn't do much for giving you an ultimate answer.

Parker Ackley built my first .338-06 for me in the 70's, and i've owned/hunted with one ever since.

I don't know what kind of magic folks use to get the velocities i read about, i've never been able to get them with the 5 336-06 and 06imp's i've owned/reloaded and chronographed.

With 200 grain bullets, anything i've ever tried in any of the rifles i've owned, 2,800fps would absolutely show too much pressure! 2,700 is much more realistic...

Personally, i don't see why you don't build a .338 Win. Mag., and load it where you want it!

DM

Guys, this is really like the 416 Rigby mystery; some claim not that many were sold in the early days. But you know what? The people that shot them liked them cuz they did two things very well and consistantly; they penetrated deeply and killed quickly as a result!

It didn't have to have a 45 cal bullet or larger but did it with a 416. Much like 7mm's they penetrate consistantly and kill well.

So is the 338/06 it uses a, larger than normal for case size, bullet that is obviously moving fast enough that it too kills consistantly and quickly out to 350 yards. And generally has a high enough BC to get it there with a reasonably flat trajectory.

If you NEED to shoot farther get a 338 RUM or 340 WBY or a 338 Lapua or something similar. For my money a 338WM is a good cartridge but the 4 I've had didn't get me that much more velocity but did give me a lot more recoil and muzzle blast. So to me, move up to the BIGGER cartridges that really do give you a significant advantage...if you can shoot one ethically!

Otherwise don't get hung up on velocity, the 338/06, has been killing stuff dead for decades and not one of those animals cared that is got smoked by a bullet doing 50-100 fps slower than someone thought is should have been.

It works just like a 416 Rigby, maybe they are not "supposed to" do what they do as well as they do but a bumble bee isn't supposed to fly either, but they sure do fly and quite well where I live!

My 22" barreled M700 338-06 safely shoots 210 gr Partitions at 2780 fps, 225 gr Accubonds or 210 gr X's at 2660 fps and 185 gr TSX's at 2950 fps. The rifle is throated to allow the bullets to be seated out there.

I found it no problem to get to 2,680- 2,710 with 225's in my 22" bbl'd 338-06.

200's will go 2,800+...

250'w will go 2,550.

H4350 was my go-to powder.

Thanks for making my point, you both show that this cartridge does have versatility regarding bullet weight and does not have to be a 3000 fps cartridge but still kills right on the heals of the 338 WM.

It will do so with less powder, less muzzle blast and less recoil. It just makes sense to shoot a cartridge like this as a great all around cartridge. I can only think of a couple of exceptions to this on the North American continent. Both would involve really BIG Bears at very close range.

By the way we use R-15 in both of our rifles with super results. It may be in part to the fact that both wear Hart SS barrels I can't say for sure but it gives the results at the muzzle and on paper.

Good Hunting,

quote:

Originally posted by 500 Fan:
Thanks for making my point, you both show that this cartridge does have versatility regarding bullet weight and does not have to be a 3000 fps cartridge but still kills right on the heals of the 338 WM.

It will do so with less powder, less muzzle blast and less recoil. It just makes sense to shoot a cartridge like this as a great all around cartridge. I can only think of a couple of exceptions to this on the North American continent. Both would involve really BIG Bears at very close range.

By the way we use R-15 in both of our rifles with super results. It may be in part to the fact that both wear Hart SS barrels I can't say for sure but it gives the results at the muzzle and on paper.

Good Hunting,

Personally, I never saw the 338-06 do anything the 30-06 couldn't do as well or better.

BUT I do really love the 338-06... great round with trajectories like the 308 Win.

The 338-06 is a fine cartridge... but the velocities you seek are squarely in the 338WM range...


So why not get a 338WM and be safe and secure and get more loading options?

A 200gr bullet seems lightweight for the 338-06.

When I moved up from 30-06 I wanted a heavier bullet.

I had my 338-06AI throated for 250gr bullets.

But settled on Barnes 225's when hunting kudu in Namibia.


My PH, Fred Burchell.

I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too...don't need to with the 210 TSX, Nosler Partition and now the 185 Hornady GMX you don't have to shoot heavy bullets like a 338 WM.

Part of having a 338-06 is no belt, less powder, less recoil and less muzzle blast for VERY CLOSE to the magnum without the unnecessary "stuff".

As I mentioned earlier my wife used it on 11 head of game in Africa most i shot kills at distances from 60 yards to 326. Ironically, the longer shots were on the heavier animals and it did a wonderful job.

I believe in premium bullets and I have always experienced premium results and this cartridge kills above what most people expect. You don't need to split hairs or worry about a bit of velocity it just works and works well with bullet weights proportion to the '06 size case.

What bbl length? I don't think it's all that hard to get 2800fps from most 200gr bullets in a 22"-24" bbl. My 22 1/2" bbl will easily get 2750fps w/ the 210grNP, my working load. I can get to just over 2800fps w/ the 200gr Speer or 200gr NF. That shoots as flat as a 30-06 w/ 180gr bullets or a 308 2/ 150gr bullets. I've hsot a bunch of animals w/ the 210grNP, only ever recovered one bullet. It doesn't need a heavier bullet to be an effective round on elk size game out to 350yds. After that, I would want a magnum for higher impact vel. Most 338 bullets are designed for the magnums & start failing to expand below 2000fps.

I know the Eastern Cape. Somehow I'd also prefer 2750-2800fps for a bit more reach.

How did you like the performance of your 338 WM? if it fitted the bill, get one in a rifle that you like as it seems the Sako was the problem.

I personally do not see the point in going to a .33 and then going to a .30 cal bullet weight. I'd stick to 225 and heavier. But to each their own.

338WM or 300 Mag of whatever description should do just fine with a good high BC bullet. You could always load a 338 WM slightly off the max if you felt it was more than needed.

"needs to comfortably shoot 300 yds at wounded animals in rough terrain. i.e. no time to think about trajectory"

That statement makes the choice pretty clear to me. You need a realtviely flat shooter with thump. Whilst I like the idea of a 338-06 or 338 Sabi (don't have one of either - yet), I don't think they fit your requirements.