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A little devil is currently perching on my shoulder whispering into my ear the words 'moderated 358winchester'. Use would be my annual moose trip and the cartridge would replace my 9.3x62 which of course works extremely well but isn't moderated (and which I don't want to moderate). To remain balanced it's not going to be much over 18" which I imagine limits max bullet weight to 225gr. That makes me wonder what a 225gr 358 partition has to offer over a 200gr one from a 308 or 30-06...... Shots will be limited to 200yards. | ||
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I suppose, in theory, the expansion ratio of a .358 bore will be quite efficient. In reality a 308 or 06 should work as well. Get what you want, thats the fun of guns. Seems that you might be in the UK? Here in the USA its a difficulty getting a silencer permit. Not that we can't do it but just about nobody has them for hunting. I am a 358 Win. fan and have a number of them all with 22" barrels. Can't say they kill better than an 06 but I like them. I can say they kill big game better than a .222! Get the 'power' or optic that your eye likes instead of what someone else says. When we go to the doctor they ask us what lens we like! Do that with your optics. | |||
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If shots are limited to 200yds as you say then 250s may be used too without any issues. Also because of the expansion ratio as mentioned already, the 358Win is a natural carbine cartridge I think - losing little in shorter barrels. I depend on mine to put down bears at last light often so I don't have to track em in the dark. So far 250s at just over 2200 or so have worked for me for that purpose. I would use it with confidence for moose too - though usually I use my 35Whelen or 350WSM for 400yd reach when out for moose. The 225Partition is an excellent bullet too for moose and bears IMO. My shortest 358Win has a very short 16 1/2" barrel - http://35cal.com/ruger77_358frontier.html | |||
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So without going nuts on pressure what is reasonable for a 225gr from an 18" barrel? I do wonder how well such a bullet penetrates in comparison to a plain old 200gr partition from a 308... | |||
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I could do 20" | |||
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Couldn't have said it better myself. 20 inches is about the minimum for me, too. Lou **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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I had Clif LaBounty rebore a .308 Ruger 77 RSI (18.5" barrel). I specified a 1x14" rifling pitch, and it will stabilize most bullets up to 250 grains (exception: Nosler 225 Ballistic Tip). I thought the slower twist might mean lower pressures. I don't have any chronographed velocities, but here are some observations: It's loud. If you send your rifle to LaBounty, he does a good job, but expect to be without your gun for a long time. My current project with it is finding a load for the Barnes 200 grain TSX--I'll also try the 225 grain, though they may be too long. If anyone's interested I'll chronograph some loads next time I go out. APB | |||
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Educated guess - somewhere around 2400 using a 225Partition and optimum powders. | |||
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I might stick to my 7-08 and use 175gr partitions............It's just I'll be travelling a long way and don't want to have to 'avoid the shoulder' etc on a big (for scandinavia) bull. | |||
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225 sierra gamekings got just over 2500 from a 20" barrel, 14 twist ... max load ... I would expect about 2450 from an 18 .. but if you really want to moderate it, 2200 is going to have significantly less pressure/report than the faster load, assuming the same powder twist without a doubt makes pressure differences ... faster twist means great force must be exerted to twist ... however, with all "underbore" cartridges, the 358 can benefit from the faster twist, as you can KEEP pressure up longer .. all of this is about maybe 50FPS, and not worth the 1200 bucks i spent to build 3 simular 358s to see the difference in twist opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeffeosso, I know you won't want to reveal your max load, but could you at least let us know the powder you used to achieve it? If you could do that, I'll take it from there. Thanks, APB | |||
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I have a 99 in .358 and using the 220 Speer flat tip 2,200ish FPS was a starting load in the manual using IMR4064, it's also amazingly accurate and kills deer like ya dropped a safe on em. Gonna take a run at the 225 Sierra's and 225 Partitions now that big game season is over and I'm wanting to develop an elk load for next year in the same kinda weather I normally hunt in. Gonna start with 748 I think, it looks like a good candidate for a propellant. I've heard Tac is outstanding but can find no data. Mine being made in 1957 and a lever I have no intention whatsoever on twisting it's tail, no need to. 2,350ish FPS with the 225's make that old lever rifle a solid 300 yard elk gun if I do my part and it'd be hard to find a better elk rifle for where I hunt elk. That's also very achievable without hurting a rifle that has a very special place in my collection (it was recently a gift from an old friends dad  ). A bolt gun can be loaded faster but the critter dang sure won't be any deader  . Great round! "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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I4895, I3031, N201 all produced top velocities in the 358 with 225s I think you are going to be hard pressed to hit 2400 in an 18inch bbl. I would actually be surprised if you hit 2350. Book velocities tend to be optimistic. I don't think you are going to find better penetration from a 225 grn 358 then from a 180 grn 308 or a 175 grn 7-08. On paper your best penetration would the 175 grn 7-08 you are talking an SD of.31 and a velocity of say 2550. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I shoot a 1980s mabye late 70s model 99 in .358 win. It shoot the 225 grain siera very acuratly. I used H-4895 and got several MOA groups 1 was with 44 grains of that powder was .68. I think that was the best. Did not chroney. Barrel lenth is a wierd issue. My 20 inch ruger 30,06 squirts bullets ot prety darn fast. I need to get a 24 inch 06 and do a comparison. IMy 22 inch 06 and the 20 inch shoot about the same speed...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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I don't feel undergunned with 250/286gr in my 9.3x62 at 2,400 and 2,300fps respectively. If I go this route it's to get roughly comparable performance with very little noise in a light package that's not much longer and doesn't balance appreciably worse. A friend has a 17.5" 358winchester (lothar walther featherweight) that produces good velocities with N201 and he is a reasonable (not brave) reloader. | |||
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I'm a bit of a fan of the .358 Win. but not in the choice of twist Ruger used when they brought out the M77. In my not very humble opinion they should have gone with the 1 in 12" twist used when Winchester brought out the cartridge. I have ywo tang safety Ruger 77s in .358, a Kodiak Mauser in .358 with all three rifles having that abortion of a 1 in 16" twist. My Browning BLR, first version made in japan and a Savage 99 have the proper 1 in 12" twist and they will shoot rings around the other three rifles by a noticable margin. To explain the Kodiak, that outfit bought up a bunch of the milsurp rifles right around the time of the 1968 gun control law and rebarreled and restocked them into sporting rifles that were sold at a reasonable pice, at least as close as I can determine. I've seen exactly three, the .243 I had years ago that was extremely accurate and accounted for the demise of many a coyote. A fellow living in the little western town I lived in at the time had one in .308 Norma magum of all things and though it had a kick like an angry mule, it too was very accurate so when I ran into the one in .358 Win. I snapped it up. Tird time was not the charm and so far no amount of tinkering has made it any better. I just haven't had the time to seriously get into that one but a new trigger should be a big help and I'm thinking some serious bedding work. I guess two out of three ain't bad. If nothing else I get another action out of it. The only thing I never liked about them though was they used maple for their wood and they're an ugly yellow color and the wood is harder'n hell to cut Should be fun. I'll have to fix that. The .243? I gave that to the son of a friend for his first deer hunt in 1979. Last time I was up that way he was still using it. Sorry if I got off track but the .358 is darn good round that does not get the attention it deserves. It's not just a short range brush gun, even if the "egg-spurts" in the gun rags say that it is. When I think of all the deer I've taken in 60 years of hunting, I can only think of one that something with more reach was needed. That deer was 47 paces away. The second place farthest out was 250 yards and the .358 would have handled that shot just fine. Guess you know where I stand with that round.  The only cartidge I like better than the .358 is my .35 Whelen.Paul B. | |||
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Paul B - the newest Ruger77 series of 358 Wins from Ruger are 12" twists - both the Frontier and Hawkeyes - also their 350RemMags. For some reason the 35Whelens are 16". Go figure. | |||
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What state do you live in that requires a permit for a silencer? The feds do not, just fill out a few forms, pay the $200 tax and approval is routine as long as the forms are filled out correctly. The real problem is that most of the 37 states that allow unlicensed civilians to own them ban their use on game animals. Some states do not prohibited suppressed weapons for non-game animals. One of my current projects is a suppressed 358 Winchester. I have a 1-14 twist barrel for my Savage that never got used, so I chopped it down to 16 inches and plan to put a large Reflex type can on it for subsonic loads. So far the 200 grain bullets group well enough. The only problem so far is the bore is not even with the exterior of the barrel and I might need to make the silencer bore larger than is ideal. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | |||
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I have burned a couple of pounds of 748 in my 358 which is a BLR. This powder is too bulky and a bit slow. You end up with major powder compression and mediocre velocities. Better by far would be either 3031 (my choice) or IMR 4320. Some are huge fans of IMR 4064 but I have not loaded this powder. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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Might want to test this theory. Mass actually does count. Fin Aagard tested a bunch of bullets for penetration in some media (forgot what) useing a 180 gr. 30-06 load , factory 180 against several 200 gr. cup and core bullets from a 35 Whelen and 350 Remington magnum, the 35's won every time. SD is actually a good guide for on paper theory but bullet construction trumps it in the real world. Leftists are intellectually vacant, but there is no greater pleasure than tormenting the irrational. | |||
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Some years ago I built a 358 win on a Win mod 70 action (push feed) & 20 inch SS barrel & synthetic stock. It was a real honey & shot 225 gr Sierras into one hole at 100 meters. Handled brilliantly & pointed instinctively. I still curse myself for selling it (after I acquired my 9,3X62 Simson). I love the Simson as a classic rifle with twin set triggers & shooting 286 to 320 projectiels. But for hard bush hunting in rough weather, the 358 Mod 70 was perfect. I got 2350 fps with the 225gr & IMR 3031 - couldn't get any more powder into the Win 358 cases. Those bullets at that velocity were lethal on large red deer & they held together with good expansion & penetration. One plowed through 8 inches of spine & exited. Out to 200 yards, I would rate it superior to the 30'06, 308 or 8X57 for its ability to anchor big animals. I zeroed it 2" high at 100 meters for a 2" low impact at 200 meters. The Browning BLR is also a very neat & sweet handling rifle that I sold to a friend & so I can still borrow it if i want to. That has the longer barrel but the action keeps the rifle compact & handy. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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My notes show a little over 2400fps using TAC with both the 225 Partition, and the 225 grain Sierra Game king. This was out of my BLR with a 20 inch barrel. Ricky | |||
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Howdy RKrodle. What was your starting load with Tac and the 225's? or possibly load sequence if you chrono'd? I can't find any data on Tac at all but I keep hearing it's a good powder in the .358 (got 2 LBS of it I find in my gun room). I have a model 99 Savage with a 22 inch barrel. According to my calculations off the ballistic program I have 2300FPS will maintain Noslers recommended 1800FPS impact velocity out to 300 yards. Nosler claims 1800FPS is needed to get the Partition to expand reliably. 300 yards would be the end of the earth with that rifle and bullet combo anyway but from a rest on a stationary target that's a duck soup shot if a fella does his part. It's a very accurate rifle but being made in 1957 I sure don't want to twist it's tail to hard, just enough to get the job done. Sure a breeze to carry, it's the Featherweight. Thanks "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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montdoug, Here is the data I used, It comes from the Aug 2008 Handloader. They used a Ruger Hawkeye I believe and said you may have a hard time extracting fired cases from a levergun because of the lack of caming action of the bolt. The loads I tried extracted fine from my BLR. Also note that they used mag primers. .358 Winchester Loading Data Reloading Data Warning! Notes: By the end of the test, Federal 215 "magnum" primers were used in all the handloads. This may seem odd, but Ramshot lists them for use with TAC in its .338 Federal data, and hotter primers also tend to allow the use of slightly less powder for the same velocity, which helps when powder capacity is limited. The 215s worked fine. The cases used were Winchester. (Handloader Issue #254 - August, 2008) Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data. Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 200 Barnes Triple-Shock Ramshot TAC 52.0 2749 Remarks: three-shot group (inches): 1.15 225 Sierra GameKing Ramshot TAC 49.0 2552 Remarks: three-shot group (inches): 1.47 250 Hornady roundnose Ramshot TAC 48.0 2404 Remarks: three-shot group (inches): .95 250 Nosler Partition Ramshot TAC 48.0 2423 Remarks: three-shot group (inches): 1.44 Ricky | |||
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Thanks. Starting at 44 grains was what seemed about right in my head before reading this and that confirms it. As I stated, I'm not looking to make this a .350 Mag. 2,300FPS with either of the 225's (Sierra's or Nosler's) would be outstanding for my purposes, even 2,250 would work fine. As I'm sure you know speed with these rounds is vastly overplayed, it's weight and frontal mass. They sure kill a lot bigger than they are. Thanks again for the info. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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montdoug, I agree that speed isn't all that is cracked up to be. My 200gr Hornady load, my standard hunting load, is actually a little slower then the 225's. I'm using 4198 in them and get good accuracy. I've played with the 225's but have not used them for hunting yet. The 358 blr is my go to gun and I have a lot of Hornady's laying around. They're cheap and work well on the animals I hunt. My 348 is sighted in with 250's for bigger stuff. Ricky | |||
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