I meant to add on my post above, BOTH deer were shot from a tall tower stand, and the bullets were angling LOWER wherever they COULD have exited than from where each hit the animal as I was shooting downward at them both.

That said, was there any angle that you were shooting from by chance? Just another thought.

Also, the question comes to mind, when a bullet fired from any ctg. hits heavy bone, esp. NOT square on, what is the odds that the shoulder bone itself deflected the remaining path of the bullet, and it somehow missed vitals? I think it is possible, which may account for a solid hit you heard, then the bear dropping.

From your recount, it indeed looks like you either hit the shoulder, or perhaps the upper leg as surely you took something out from under him that made him drop.

This reminds me of how I dropped those two deer and was SURE I had them both in the bag, only to see them get off, never for me to see them again. It is disappointing, but I have since killed more deer, in fact the next day on the 7BR and the deer went about 60 yds high double lung, range about 150 yds, and also killed and witnessed killing with 243s so I ultimately concluded 'things happened' that were unfortunate and unplanned, but I learned something each time. When both deer were down, I should have put another slug in them given the opportunity if they were not stone dead. Better ruin some meat then let one get away. Most fairly hit animals I have killed needed one shot, but a couple that got away NEEDED me to shoot a second, and my bad, for I did not.

I know you had only one shot to take and you did your best.

quote:

Originally posted by TXPO:
suggested that I maybe hit a tad too high and got into that zone between the spine and vitals. I don't know, that bear was visibly and audibly hit VERY hard.

Who knows......I'm getting over it. I just wish I knew what happened........S*** HAPPENS!!!

The thrashing indicates skeletal damage to a shoulder/leg(s) or shock to the spine. To get close enough to shock the spine in the chest almost always hits the major vessels which hang below the spine (with very quick death) High hits which don't hit the spine are high lung only hits and they do run a long way (guess why I have a dog).

Finding downed game without a dog is a nightmare

quote:

Finding downed game without a dog is a nightmare

That's why I have a labrador! I'm pretty sure he could have found it if I could have made him realize that I wanted him to track a bear, which he has never seen or smelled, and not a deer or bird of some sort. I'm just not sure I would want my lab tracking a wounded bear......sure could have used an experienced bear dog that evening.

quote:

I want to thank everyone for their insight and encouragement. I still believe that the round is perfectly suitable for hunting game the size of black bears and such.

I had a 300 Win Mag with a 200 grain Sierra fail me on a whitetail once...a very big whitetail...

It is obvious the round was competent for the job.. and the placement was right were it should be.. deer went down on his nose.. blood all over the snow and hair all over the place too...

unfortunately it was shot at 100 yds, and out of that round at that distance the bullet passed right thru the deer before it could open up...

The same thing is potentially possible out of your 338/08... the bullet didn't hit the animal in its best optimal velocity range.. or the shot wasn't placed quite right....

or the bear was just one tough customer... my big whitetaill hit the ground, thrashed for a few seconds, got up, shook its head to get its sense.. and took off straight into the swamp it had been heading for....

I know he died, but I never was able to find him....of course I haven't used a heavy loaded 300 Win mag for deer ever since....I have used it downloaded tho...

'..I have used it downloaded tho...

Now about the 338 Whisper........on the 7mmBR case........

ok, it is not a joking matter, but about that dog, my buddy shot a mid size buck, at dusk, raining, NO blood to be seen, 243 100 gr, but deer ran 150 yds, he would have NEVER found it, and I thought the deer might have got away, but his black lab found it, went right to it.

Dogs nose's are great, and dogs seem to have a sense of what their purpose it, or at least his does.

Go figure, a dog used for waterfowl hunting, retrieving deer Literally though, this dog HAS accounted for more than a few of his deer being found. Never would NOT use one if available. Life is MUCH easier this way!

Man it sure is dishearting to shoot game and then be unable to determine what went wrong. Five years ago, I shot a nice W/T at roughly 60 yards in the open with my 7X57 loaded with Hornady 154 SP @2600 fps. The buck stumbled, regained his feet and ran across the right-of-way into a 3 year clear-cut that was filled with briars and brambles. Knowing it was a good shot, I waited about 15 minutes, then went to the spot where he was standing. Found blood and lung tussue, so I started in the direction he ran, and the blood trail stopped within 25 yards. Well, to shorten the story, we looked until 10 p.m. and even brought in the dogs all for naught. A friend found the remains a couple of days later about 1/4 mile from where I shot and sawed off the rack for me.
At the time, I wanted to blame the caliber or the bullet but, I knew both have proven performance. Then a friend said that if you hunt long enough, unexplained things will happen. So it seems but, it's still dishearting.

I recall JJHACK posting something on the difficulty of the shoulder shot and on a black bear in particular. IIRC, he has a pic of him holding a black bear shoulder bone with a healed bullet hole. IIRC again, he collected it with an arrow.

Jaywalker

Those indians did not live all these years because their arrows failed! Interesting. Well, I am sure game got away at times with arrows, as they did/do/will with bullets.

I don't know if would know just where to aim on a bear w/o studying their anatomy, but perhaps a lung shot as on deer would have ended it, sooner or later, though they would likely run like a deer, just don't know how far.

Arrows often kill by bleeding an animal out from what I am told. Bullets will too at times, but a sharp edge on an arrow point leaves nothing to chance to close up after it slices cleanly through arteries and tissue.

No one has mentioned this so far in this thread. My doing so is NOT intended as a criticism of you. Just an observation for those who wish to think it over.

I do not shoot any game animal just at the near edge of darkness. That's not because I am very worried about hitting exactly where I want. I can do that. The reason is because of precisely what happened to you. It can be pretty danged hard to observe an animal's departure and then find him, in the twilight. And even if badly wounded, over night he can move a long way, especially when he has fear and pain as a motive.

Albert, you raise a great point, one I think about often on evening hunts, to squeeze or not to squeeze.

For me it always depends on many conditions, terrain.....even rain-which will wash away a blood trail, etc. etc.

I am very careful in the thought process, and not wanting ANY tracking job, shot my deer this past year, a doe, in the head. The range was short, 40 yds, and a lung shot would likely have been fine, but often they result in SOME distance covered if only 25-60 yds.

That said, the deer stopped and was looking towards me, seemingly aware of my presence, but it was lights out when a 105 amax was launched.

I know head shots are not viable in most cases, but this time it was, so I did it. It was VERY calming to see the deer drop RIGHT there! I guess past experience taught me to take that shot, and either clean miss or clean DRT kill.

I killed another deer like that a few years ago, neck shot, 70gr TNT using that bullet as it happened to be what my 243 had been sighted in with last, and I wanted to chamber a round that the gun was sighted for, so a lasered offhand shot at 42 yds dropped a doe instantly, and that was a shot I was proud of, not the shot so much as the instant kill. That has happened mostly when I have made a shot hitting the CNS.....central nervous system. That doe was shot on a morning hunt, and it was facing almost directly to me, and I know a TNT won't penetrate much other than a lung shot which will result in quick death, done with a 6BR at 200 yds once. I don't believe I have EVER lost any animal hit broadside in the lungs with ANY load/ctg combo.

Nothing makes me happier after I pull the trigger than to see a DRT, but on the other hand, seeing something leave the scene is about the most frustrating thing that has happened to me a few times and I hope never again, though there is a probability it will. That said, I hope to minimize it with careful shooting, if/when I shoot.

Perhaps animals are more 'nervous' near dark since much predation occurs then, I don't know, but they certainly try to get out of dodge when something goes bang, and they are not hit with a DRT shot.

I do seem to read alot of bears not consistently being killed as quickly as say deer, with shots that SHOULD result in short tracking. Perhaps their bodies absorb alot of shock. I don't know just how much fat is under that hide, let alone how tough the hide is, but it COULD soak up some FT LBS before the bullet gets into the animal where it needs to go to work. I would imagine bullets with higher SD and momentum via sheer mass may help. Exception, a bullet like a barnes which will dig deep.

If the 185x in a 338Fed works like the 85x did in my 243, perhaps results could have been different I don't know. I think if I were given a choice KNOWING I was planning for a direct shoulder hit on a heavy boned animal, I might opt for an X bullet over even a partition. I think it makes sense. Not a slam on the fine partition's, but perhaps more speed with a bullet that equals or exceeds what a 210 has in weight AFTER it sheds the nose. It is interesting that one article a few years ago, perhaps by a notable author discussed 2 rifles built and I believe BOTH were using 185x's on all types of game including African.

Personally I'd have likely chose a 225 partition @2400 or so, over the 210 for Downrange energy and higher SD, but that is just me. That is what I chose as my all around load in my 338/06. That said, I have RARELY heard complaints on the 210, most users raving over them.

If TXPO would have used any other bullet, load, or even cartridge, there is no way anyone could say with certainty that the outcome would have been different. What MAY have been prudent, would have been for a guide to have put a bullet in the bear immediately after the first hit, for insurance, IF a shot could have been made, but a few of my 'goofs' in the field with game getting away that WERE hit, was in very dim light.....so I really have to think before I take those shots as to IF and HOW I do it.

Good hunting folks. I think TXPO put alot of thought into his setup and it is unfortunate what happened. There was a blog on Field and Stream, I believe by David Petzal:

February 23, 2006
The .338 Federal: A rare moment of sanity, cartridge-wise
Is it possible? A new cartridge that is not short and fat and that will not snap your cervical vertebrae when you pull the trigger? Apparently so. Federal, at the 2006 SHOT Show, announced the .338 Federal (well, what the hell else would they call it, the .338 Remington?), which is a legitimized version of the .338/08 wildcat, which has been around for years.

The .338 Federal fires a 210-grain bullet at 2600 fps, and 180- and 185-grain bullets at 150 to 200 fps faster. Along with this information comes the apparently mandatory claims that the new round is superior to the .30/06, the 7mm Remington Magnum, the .338 Winchester Magnum, and for all I know, the .375 Eargessplitten Loundenboomer.

Give me a break! If you want to shoot 180-grain bullets, get a .30/06. The real forte of the .338 Federal is its ability to shoot 210-grain slugs at a respectable velocity without anywhere near the recoil of bigger .33 cartridges. In this respect it’s very similar to the .325 WSM. Of all the shooters I know who used the .338/08 when it was a wildcat, all of them used the 210-grain bullet, and swore by it.

At the moment, the only rifle chambered for this round is Sako’s new Model 85 bolt-action, which I have handled, not shot. The one I groped was a fine piece of machinery, although it weighed almost as much as Sen. Hillary Clinton’s leg. (NB: I have never hefted Senator Clinton’s leg, and can only guess at its weight, but I think I’m on safe ground here.)

I trust that in the fullness of time, hunters will recognize what a dandy cartridge this is, and it will proliferate into other makes of rifles. I mean, I love the .338 and the .338 RUM, and the .340 Weatherby, but sometimes all that recoil gets old.

February 23, 2006 | Permalink | Comments (67)

I shoot a reduced load from my .338 WM with 200 grain Ballistic Tips at 2360 fps and have killed several roe deer and pigs up to nearly 150 lbs gutted. Roe deer drop on the spot, NO pig went farther than about 30 meters, always leaving a blood trail as broad and as visible as a highway. Pigs tend not to leave a blod trail on the first meters when hit with smaller and faster bullets (30/06 with 150 grain PT) even when hit in the boiler room because as stated here, the fat tends to clog the wound.

We know for sure that the bear was hit because he went down and that both front legs were at least temporarily paralyzed because it crawled rather then run away. We can also presume that you hit bone because of the loud impact you'd heared.

In case that the bear was not drop dead very close to where you shot it, I doubt that it was a good lung shot because sooner or later you'd have found LOTS of blood, leading you to the dead bear. My THEORY is that you hit it high, either hitting both shoulder blades or you clipped the spine just a little, paralyzing the bear temporarily. Once out of sight, it recovered and just ran away.

The reduced .338 WM is at the moment my favourite rifle, I'd presume that with the 200 BT the 338 Federal performes even a little better and might have left a bigger would with better sign.

By the way, there is always my jagd terrier Hoss sitting in the car waiting for work when I go hunting. Sometimes especially at night it is just impossible to find an animal even when you have a very good idea about where it dropped. The dog finds it within seconds.

For this very reason our law requires that a trailing dog must be "available within a reasonable amount of time" when hunting major game or birds.

No rules without exceptions, yesterday evening I shot another wild boar, male, gutted 35 kgs., perfect kitchen shot behind fronmt legs, ran still 60 meters downhill into a "barranco" through briars, left a little blood trail because no rip was hit at entry, would have found it even without dog but after much longer time. Waste of meat however was nil.

Wes I read the thread with interest.

I don't know anything about the .338 Federal. Can you load heavier bullets then the 210gr in it? Nosler Partitions are usually pretty good but in .338 cal I would want a 250gr or at least a 225gr. I am not a fan of the 210gr Partition, I think the 210grs are okay for deer...

Maybe a heavier bullet would have made a difference.

The biggest blackie I have ever been witness to its harvest was a 708lb PA monster taken with a single shot at 135 yards from of all rifles, a 30-30 spitting out factory REM 170 grainers. Bear dropped dead within 30 yards. You dont need a mag to harvest big blackies as it proved.

I dont have all the facts to run a ballistic calculator on this .338 Fed load but with a starting muzzle velocity of 2500 FPS even at 200 yards it should have still been packing the 1800 FPS needed to expand a partition. The 1800 fps is per Noslers web site. It maybe simply didnt have enough steam left to penetrate past the shoulder at that range. Only God and that bear know exactly what happened.

WVhunter the Alberta record black bear, which scored 22-1/16" and was over 7' and something like 600 lbs was also shot with a .30-30.
The guy was deer hunting and basically stumbled onto the bear in a grain field.

Like I've said....I know the round was completely capable of the task at hand. I'm just not sure what exactly happened and have basically chalked it up to 'S*** Happens'

BTW, I have since talked with the outfitter and he has not seen any sign of that bear.

I shot a bear once while bow hunting and we (me a frind and 2 of his friends )tracked for 4 hours and never found it, till I looked up and found it 45 yards from where it was shot up a pine tree dead.....

One thing I do now is that when tracking a bear I cant seem to find I look up every now and then They may be hert but if they can find a tree to climb they just might do that to hide......

Wes,
Your very right..It does happen... and will happen to everyone that hunts long enough and takes more then a few shots on big game animals. My WTF happened animal happened to be a big muley back in 2000. I know I hit him well as confirmed by my guide and the camera we had filming the hunt. He dropped at the shot got up and stumbled 10 yards over a hill and out of sight. All three of us fully exspected to walk over the top and find him dead... all we found was a few splashes of blood but no buck. We searched for three days to no avail. Ill never know exactly what happened but I suspect bullet failure to fully reach the vitals. Rifle was a custom VZ-24 7mm Mag spitting out handloaded 160 gr handmade bullets by the now defunct Mountaineer bullet company. Range was 97 yards.

I know your pain.

Dave

TXPO

If the .358 win can kill so well the 338 federal should not be far behind. I believe the bullet hit bone and didnt get and vitals.

The first blackie i ever shot was with my compound bow, was deer hunting when the bear popped up. In N.Y. state you get a bear tag with the big game license, so i figured what the heck.

The bear was at the edge of my range limit a little over 30yds. When i released the arrow i watched it hit its lower leg and bounce off! I was amazed as it tore off at light speed and i know that it lived.

If one hunts enough he or she is going to wound and lose animals on rare ocassions, it is going to happen...

With the caliber and bullet you used it is clear to me that the shot was not a killing shot or the animal crawled in a hole and pulled the hole in after him...In the late evening it is easy to lose the angle of a shot. An evening shot should always be a spine, head or neck shot as it get dark too fast and you lose a lot of the trail..also bear don't give much of a blood trail as they are so fat and the fat plugs the hole and the hair sucks up the blood also..

Unfortunately it was your turn in the barrel.

Everytime someone wounds and animal they go get a bigger gun like thats going to solve all the problems, It won't.

I wouldn't be blaming the cartridge nor the bullet. Everything points to shooter error.

In all fairness to both the shooter and the cartridge, w/o a recovered animal EVERYTHING is speculation, EVERYTHING.

To ASSUME anything is as the saying goes.....

The shooter could have done his part, the bullet -its job, and guess what, just what if that bear climbed a tree nearby and died and nobody found it?

There is NO way to be sure of anything. You must stick to the facts at hand, to make any reliable conclusion. A reliable conclusion is simply not possible without more information.

I did ponder the thought above that bear do have alot of fat and often a blood trail from entry and/or exit is minimal to non-existent. That is a separate issue from whether the animal was hit right, the bullet did its job, or if the bear died in a short period, but never recovered. There are few absolutes in hunting.

That is my .02

If you hunt enough you are bound to lose an animal. It leaves a sour taste in your mouth for awhile. I wouldn worry too much over why and it seems like you are getting over it.

why would you handload for this cartridge? you lose anywhere from 250-300 fps over the federal premium. they developed the cartridge using their high octane nitro glycerin powders.

I think they might have to come out with some new bullets for the 338 federal.The .338 bullets now are for the 338 win mag for the most part.I like the 250 gr Nosler partition alot better than the 210 gr partition in my 338 win mag.I hardly use any other bullet than the 250 gr partition in my 338-378.I wish winchester would release their 200 gr power point bullets in the .338 then you would have an awesome bullet for the .338 federal.I have had awesome luck with those bullets on deer hogs and caribou from 3 to 425 yards.I thin the 200 gr hornady might be soft enough for the 338 federal speeds.You need a way softer bullet for the speeds your pushing it at.I didnt like the 210 partitions on deer it did about just zip through like a field point from a bow on deer .Try the hornady 200 gr bullets or sell me your gun cheap and I will let some kids I take hunting try them on caribou.

I think the bullet deflected off bone. The range and velocity of that bullet would be plenty to get that bullet going had it hit vitals. Sorry for that loss but it sometimes happens.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Everytime someone wounds and animal they go get a bigger gun like thats going to solve all the problems, It won't.

Couldn't agree more. Likely one of the major reasons that we even have "magnums". Sounds like the angle/placment was slightly off to me. I've been there too. If you blow out the front of the shoulder/lower leg with a shot traveling even slightly cephalad, it doesn't matter if it is a .416 or a .22LR, it won't kill quickly. If hit very well in the heart/great arteries, a .264 cal bullet doesn't even have to expand to kill quickly. Expanding bullets definitely give us more fudge factor in shot placement for quick kills. The only way I would ever 100% blame the bullet is if it came apart superficially (not likely with a partition)and did not penetrate.

Sorry about the loss. Like I said, I've been there too. Keep your gun. I see no particular merit in the cart., but it should work as well as anything else. Hope you get one next time.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
I think they might have to come out with some new bullets for the 338 federal.The .338 bullets now are for the 338 win mag for the most part.

quote:

I hope that never happens. If a lighter more frangible bullet ever comes about, and said bullet finds its into the larger cased 338s, we'll all be unhappy.

quote:

I like the 250 gr Nosler partition alot better than the 210 gr partition in my 338 win mag.I hardly use any other bullet than the 250 gr partition in my 338-378.

Yup, I like the 250s too!

Remember the 9mm and 9.3 mann and mauser have been around a long time with the same ballistics as a 338 fed or 358 win. Those guns did their work with SOFT bullets, not ultra premiums. With modest vel. I think we tend to over think the bullets, and end up with ones that dont open enough.
I shot a huge bodied eland on the point of the shoulder quartering to me, with a 375 H&H and a win failsafe bullet. It broke the bone, then angled straight down and out without ever entering the body cavity. Took an hour to catch up to it and finish him off. No gurantees to anything!

I think DGR has a point on soft animals like deer, use a softer bullet that will expand at lower speeds, BUT on a bear hunt, where you may have heavier bone to deal with, I would not substitute a faster expanding bullet. The 210 PT is softer up front, but made to stay together at the H.

TSJ recovered his eland, so he KNEW what the bullet did, as many times we may fail to recognize that bullets hitting game CAN deflect inside the cavity and do strange things, other than penetrate straight line.

Not enough data in my view to prove anything with certainty. I have a business interest in a bear hunting outfit in Maine and they take a lot of black bears every year and in our opinion, they are relatively soft targets.

If I had to venture a guess on your situation, is the shot angle was probably more acute than you thought given the time of the day and the bullet didn't get to the vitals. Also, Jaywalker's post regarind JJHack that posts here, was also a good one. He's a very experienced bear guide and wrote a good piece on the anatomy of black bears and shot placement. jorge

I think finally a caliber that is just right for the " soft " Sierra bullets. 338 Federal and the Sierra 210 gn Gameking...............JJ

Partitions are great bullets, but they do have a tendancy to strip the front of the nose and leaving the shank to pass through the vitals. If'n you hit the shoulder bone square with enough velocity, it would have been likely to knock the top off and deflect the shank. Magnums can make this worse. I had a hog hunt a couple of years ago that in the midst of packing 180 gr 30-06 partitions into the lungs I was starting to wonder if my sights were off. Luckily, I had a competent guide smack the pelvis otherwise we would have had a long tracking section in the midst.

As for the 338 WM bullet design argument, the partitions will open at 500 yds on a 300 wm, the 338 fed will hold the same velovity at 300 yds that the 338 WM will hold at 500.

On the ethical side, you packed enough gun, took a good shot, and made every effort to recover your game. You shouldn't beat yourself up over it and the 338 federal should do you well.

John

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
I think finally a caliber that is just right for the " soft " Sierra bullets. 338 Federal and the Sierra 210 gn Gameking...............JJ

Well, out of my 338/06 at the 200 yds backstop, the 215 shed cores more often than the 225 hornady's (in fact I believe the 225's I recovered ALL had the jacket with core intact), I believe a 200 Hornady might hold together better and give more penetration, but testing would need to be done to verify. I think 185-210's are right for the round, and 225's may not be a bad thing if you want more smack on shots that are not longish, but If they offer any deeper penetration, more REAL field killing power, AND if they expand as well would need testing. Anything over the 210/215 will eat into case capacity perhaps more than you would want-esp. if you are using a 2.75/2.8 oal mag box.

I have seen core slippage with a 140 BTSP sierra in 7/08 on a close shot on a deer front chest POI, but the deer went down in a short distance I have to say, so it still killed well.

I think the cores slip easier on a conventional bullet of boatail design. Doubt on deer or bear w/o hitting heavy bone it would matter greatly. Hit heavy bone, rather be using something different myself. The 250 Sierra now is said to be a heavy duty bullet, but also not fit for a smaller case. In a 338 mag it likely does well. Anytime heavy bone is expected to be encountered I would use a partition/Barnes or similar.

Nothing against .338fed, as it could well have been shtr error, having said that, for a SA-BlKBear rifle,Id like to remove any doubt about the cartridge.... Id much prefer a PigmyWhelen...ie; 225tsx.35oReMagCombo!

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Here Ya go Wes:




Reloader

Wes, I agree with Duk. If you will study the bear anatomic chart Reloader posted, you will see that there is room for a bullet to pass thru the anterior part of the shoulder blade and over the top of the neck vertabrae (maybe knick a spine)so that nothing vital is hit.

Our Africa guide cautioned us about this type of hit, and is the reason neck shots are inadvisable in thick necked animals (like your gemsbok).

6.5BR, I think you are right. I had good luck on my first safari with 338 WM loaded hot with 250gn Gamekings. But the biggest animal taken was a nice kudu at 228 yrds. I hit it on the point of the shoulder breaking the bone, shredded the heart and what was left of the bullet ( core ) stopped under the skin on the off side shoulder. The bullet totally came apart but killed well.

I went to Woodleigh 250 gns after that. But I think with the modest velocity of the 338 Fed. the 215 gn Gamekings will get the job done well. When it cools down in a couple of months a couple of Russian Boar will get the test...............JJ

I just dont know I would use the 338 fed when we have the 338 mag, 338 ultra, and-the piece de resistace- the 338 lapua. You cant kill em TOO dead. My only black bear was shot in Ontario from a stand with my 404 jeffery; I thought it was a good short range cartridge, and it was. Bear didnt move > 5 feet. Same hunt, other hunters lost bear with a 44 mag rifle and a 7x57.
To paraphrase Bob Ruark, use MORE than enough gun!

It's a personal judgment call, but I don't think, GETTING A BIGGER GUN is always going to be the panacea people think, not always the solution.

Before you find the answer to a problem, the PROBLEM must first be identified.

Unless an animal is recovered, we know very little. We can speculate, but that is what it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:
I just dont know I would use the 338 fed when we have the 338 mag, 338 ultra, and-the piece de resistace- the 338 lapua. You cant kill em TOO dead. My only black bear was shot in Ontario from a stand with my 404 jeffery; I thought it was a good short range cartridge, and it was. Bear didnt move > 5 feet. Same hunt, other hunters lost bear with a 44 mag rifle and a 7x57.
To paraphrase Bob Ruark, use MORE than enough gun!

Most people don't like the noise, recoil, or cost of shooting the magnums, especially the Lapua. I like the 340 Weatherby myself, and think it does a bang up job on the four legged critters, but it definately pounds our shoulder, ears, and wallet. Truthfully I don't understand the 338 federal when there is a 338-06 which makes more sense to me. But, the magic is there, if you like short actions and want a bit more stopping power. Personally, I still like the 350 remington magnum. Evil little cartridge designed by Satan for the purpose of knocking down black bears.

John