In 270 up to 8mm calibre - on deer and wild boar - and assuming that when making the comparison bullet weight and bullet "shape" (in other words all flat based) are the same is any significantly better than the other?

I'm thinking specifically of 140/150 grain in the 270 and 195/200 grain in the 8mm. I'll be keeping my muzzle velocity to just under 2,800 in the 270 and just under 2,500 in the 8mm Mauser.

And, lastly, has anybody any experience with the Sierra 175 grain spitzer 8mm bullet at about 2,700fps?

Many thanks!

I have shot some of each and still do, but, more in .338WM and 9.3 cals. My subjective impression and I have/have had a LOT of rifles, and shot/seen shot maybe 200 big animals all told, is that the SGKs are accurate, but, soft and tend to disintegrate, the Speers are also too soft for general BC hunting and the Hornady Interlocks are the toughest and "best" from a penetration and killing P.O.V.

I willnot use any of these on any animal bigger than a Mule Deer, a mountain deer that weighs from 175 to 350 at legal hunting age here and is "soft" in terms of dropping to the shot, comparatively speaking. Some use them on Elk, a very tough animal and even on Rocky Mtn. Goat, the toughest animal in BC., not me.

I load, for hunting, by preference, Nosler Partitions and A-Frames and am also beginning to use ABs, as my friend has killed a couple of Elk and Moose with them now.

In the two 8x57JS rifles I now have, a Husqvarna 1600 and a Brno 22H, I am thinking that the 200 NAB at just on 2700 is about the best choice. I have owned and shot over a dozen .270W. rifles for over 42 years, I have almost a reverence for this wonderful Americanization of Herr Mauser's original concept and the 150NP at 2900 from 22" tubes is THE BOMB, IMHO and I witnessed an old friend kill a decent interior BC Grizzly dead with this load and one shot.

Them's my thoughts on it.

quote:

I will not use any of these on any animal bigger than a Mule Deer, a mountain deer that weighs from 175 to 350 at legal hunting age here and is "soft" in terms of dropping to the shot, comparatively speaking. Some use them on Elk, a very tough animal and even on Rocky Mtn. Goat, the toughest animal in BC., not me.

I will not even qualify its use, I have seen and heard of failures too many a time. These are simply outdated bullets in todays hunting world - they are simply too frangible with associated risks that nobody needs in his life, or worse to bugger up a hunt for all your buddies that must drop their hunting and assist you with the rescue.

So I will not use these bullets as hunting bullets at all on any animal - I positively reject them !!!

A Farm owner just told us last Saturday that a guy hunted on his farm a European Wildboar with a 270 Win using 130 gr Sierra Gameking bullets and it broke up on its shoulder causing a superficial flesh wound, it ran away, the farmer was called in and a follow up mission started, and after a long chase the farmer shot it in the head with a .22 LR. On inspection it was found that the Sierra bullet could not even go through the 1-inch cartilage bone that these Wildboars have.

Warrior

I use all three of these bullet in various cals including 8x57js.
My expiriance has been that the Sierra's will likely be most accurate in any gun any cal but there are surly exceptions to that I have them.

Although there are differances in how tough these bullets are they are all pritty similar in the end.

I shoot the 150 gr. Hornady in my 8x57js but I shoot RWS 196's in my JR's

My Mauser .338 shoots the 250 gr. Sierra extreamly well but dos'nt like the interlock at all for accuracy. I shoot the 250 gr. interlock in my .338 double rifle and it shoots both bullets about the same.

As far as performance on game I would rate all three bullets close to the same giving my preferance to the Sierra but haveing said that the interlock work just fine on this one.

i am not expert o 270 win , but i owned a husky in 8x57js and tried and tested a variety of loads from different makers. i found remington 185 gr and hornady 195 grain worked well and i tried a box of S&B loaded with 220 grain sierra and was surprised by the result. no core separation and beautiful mushrooms nearly twice of diameter and average of 70% weight . non of above mentioned bullets showed core separation and all mushroomed nicely in both wet and dry papper+ 1 inch thick wooden board in front of it for simulating ribs.

I would ask why take the chance messing up a hunt when Accubonds and Interbonds perform so well and while not cheap, they are not all that expensive. Especially when you consider you can work up loads with the BT's and switch to the AB's with very little and sometimes no change of POI.

I love to shoot sierra's but mostly for deer or smaller in the GameKing offerings and target with the SMK's. So there is no knock on Sierra.

My experience has been with Hornady Interlocks and they are excellent bullets.

I have taken 2 cow elk and 1/2 dozen pigs with them.

They have been consistently accurate in all my rifles and penetrate quite well and hold together well when driven at MVs less than 2800 fps.

I shoot 180 grain Sierra Gamekings in my 30/06 at just under 2800FPS. Stellar performance on Deer and Elk, Antelope, Sheep and Goats, exits everytime. I tried the Speer 180 hot cores one time and it took 3 shots no exits to put a Bull down, no perfect mushrooms just a bunch of bullet frags all broadside 175 yards.
No experience with the Hornadys.
I had two lackluster performances with Accubonds, no exits on Elk and not the pretty mushroom picture in the magazines, I won't use them again.

I have had excellent performance from the Interlocks. I rate them well above the Accubonds at 2/3 the price. I have used the Sierra bullets as well and they always performed for me. I shoot them at modest velocities. I have no experience with the Speers.

Hi 'Spares.

My experience with these bullets is in 30 cal with my 06.

The Speer hot-cors are the softest in my experience, especially in the boat tail configuration I use. However a 150 grain one at 2850fps had no trouble exiting on a quatering towards shot through the meat of the shoulder at 50-60 yards. However on a follow up of a wounded Muntjac I had to shoot at the departing left hip of a quartering (running) away deer. The expectation was to anchor the thing, you know how big munties are, by shooting right through and out of the right shoulder. the bullet hit the hip joint and more or less exploded as I did not find the bullet and got no penetration into the chest cavity.

These bullets tend to leave just fragments in a soft clay backstop I use.

I suspect they are a bit soft but very workable for the broadside deer shooter.

The Hornady interlocks I use in 180 grain flavour at about 2750 fps, I have never recovered one on animals but managed to recover some reasonable mushrooms from the clay. Retained weight was about 50-70%. After discovering a problem with some TSX loads I had intended for Africa these will be coming instead.

I haven't loaded any game kings and only shot one deer with them, a fallow pricket broadside, the exited and killed the deer fine but I don't know much more about them than that.

Best,

A

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
In 270 up to 8mm calibre - on deer and wild boar - and assuming that when making the comparison bullet weight and bullet "shape" (in other words all flat based) are the same is any significantly better than the other?

I'm thinking specifically of 140/150 grain in the 270 and 195/200 grain in the 8mm. I'll be keeping my muzzle velocity to just under 2,800 in the 270 and just under 2,500 in the 8mm Mauser.

And, lastly, has anybody any experience with the Sierra 175 grain spitzer 8mm bullet at about 2,700fps?

Many thanks!

I've used the Hornady 140 ILs and the 150 SGKs in my 270 - Both gave complete pass thru on deer even if thru both shoulders. I prefer the 150s but both worked well.

I've also used the 185 Rem CLs and the 200 Speer HCs in My 8x57. The 185s gave pass-thru on deer. The 200s also pased thru most hogs except for a front shoulder shot I found in the opposite hind quarter - It stayed together and mushroom well.

All deer and hogs were one shot kills.

I have used all three in both 270, 7mm and 30 caliber. I like the Speer flat based Hotcor designs when I need penetration. I liked the 150 gr. in 270, the 160 in a 7x57 and the 180 in the 30-06 and I did recover several of them from elk but never one from a deer. Good performance and deep penetration. I also like the Interloks, they seem to open a bit faster but retain no more weight. The 160 grain Sierra Game king works very well on deer and hogs from my 7x57 but my favorite is still the 160 br. Speer Hotcor. Speers boat tailed bullets are very soft.

enfieldspaares ----- For Deer and pigs it matters not, pick your huckleberry. Good shooting.

I've got a lot of experience with the 270 but not a lot of experience with those bullets.

One Missouri buck kill was with a 150 Speer flat base bullet at 130 yards, broadside. He fell right there. The bullet did not exit but looked ok. I was kind of surprised because I had always heard big bullets mean lots of penetration. I expected an exit. (Compare this to many deer/antelope killed with the 110 TSX and all pass throughs).

I killed a few small does with the 140 Hornady boat tail..worked fine, no recovered bullets.

The Sierras were the hollow point 140 boat tail. Again, killed small deer just fine, pass throughs.

For deer, I'd take a 110 TSX over any of them.

Keep impact vel below 2800fps & they all work about the same. Shoot the one that gives you the best accuracy.

I have used all these bullets and all have performed well. As all the old hands keep saying "it's not so much bullet performance as shot placement". On my first trip to Africa I had a 7mm Rem. mag. as a back up rifle. I had planned on using it on smaller game, like Springbuck. My PH said it was fine for everything we were going to shoot using 140 gr. Hornady's. His statement was " I like bullets that come apart, you can't believe how easy it is to track a dead animal". He has been proven correct in my last 5 trips. I have been asked to shoot behind the shoulder and not thru it because of meat damage.......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Keep impact vel below 2800fps & they all work about the same. Shoot the one that gives you the best accuracy.

+1

Taken various game with Speer, Hornady, and Sierra for 6mm to 35cal and I agree with fred.
If you are not pumping magnum velocities they will do the job.


Barstooler

I know Speer Hot Cors aren't premium bullets but the 250gr shoot super accurate in my .358 and have dynamite performance on whitetails.

I went to the 180grn Hornady Interlock in my 300wm because of problems with other bullets and weights being to soft or to hard for deer, imo. I load them to around 2970fps, and have been very happy with them for 10+yrs. Never recovered a bullet, and more importantly, never had a fist size exit. Very solid performer, and I had the confidence in them to take that load to NM for elk, but never pulled the trigger.

One of the biggest problems with conventional lead-core soft nosed bullets, arising from increased velocity with present day cartridges is bullet disintegration. Almost all jacketed bullets use gilding metal for jacket material, and after the many cup forming operations needed, the jacket is hard and brittle, and thus fractures on impact, instead of stretching and flowing evenly with the soft lead core to take the shape of an even mushroom. In fact when the soft lead flows beyond the support of the brittle jacket, it looses its integrity, and the soft lead will then fragment or even disintegrate at high impact velocities. Once this jacket-core separation has occurred, the core is no longer protected and so the integrity of the bullet is lost.

Fragmentation or shattering causes a reduction in bullet weight (i.e. terminal momentum), and this typically happens within the first 2 to 3 inches in an animal, with the result that deep penetration is impaired. Also, a higher impact velocity causes a bullet to set up quicker and as a result it penetrates less. So there is a compounding effect. However, spectacular kills with frangible bullets can be made with side-on shots behind the shoulder, where the bullet is able to explode in the animal's lungs without mush resistance and being closer to the vitals as with angling shots. The other negative of course with bullet disintegration is that it and sprays millions of lead particles in the surrounding wound track, unlike the case with controlled expanding bullets that retain most of their weight.

These conventional lead core bullets, with their thin copper jackets, do not have a high-threshold strength. Furthermore, the copper jackets are typically as thin on bigger caliber bullets as they are on smaller caliber bullets, despite different energy levels. The conventional bullet design of today is basically the same as in 1889 when Captain Rubin of the Swiss army invented jacketed bullets, when rifle velocities were fairly modest (just to remind you, the 7x57 mm Mauser was considered fast at 2,300 fps at the time).

Generally, non bonded, thin-jacketed conventional bullets worked well at impact velocities between 1,900 and 2,100 fps. For example, a 30-06 Spr with a muzzle velocity of 2,625 fps will do about 2,050 fps at 250 yards at which distance the bullet will do its best work. I consider conventional bullets as basically outdated with our faster cartridges of today, as they too frangible as a hunting bullet. However, if they are used sensibly, within their threshold strength, they work fine, but they are certainly not a versatile design to use on angling shots where deep penetration is required and at close range with concomitant high impact velocities.

These are 7 mm bullets - the far right bullet is a conventional lead-core bullet - showing core/jacket separation it only made 4 inches into a wetpack of newsprint - the lead disintegrated and only the jacket could be retrieved.



Warrior

quote:

A Farm owner just told us last Saturday that a guy hunted on his farm a European Wildboar with a 270 Win using 130 gr Sierra Gameking bullets and it broke up on its shoulder causing a superficial flesh wound, it ran away, the farmer was called in and a follow up mission started, and after a long chase the farmer shot it in the head with a .22 LR. On inspection it was found that the Sierra bullet could not even go through the 1-inch cartilage bone that these Wildboars have.

Please read the complete article for more information on the European and Russian Wildboar .... here is a snippet ... "The boar will develop a 1 inch thick layer of cartilage and scar tissue called a shield along his neck and chest back to the last rib to protect it during battle."

http://www.rollinghillswildlife.com/animals/b/boar/boar,russian.pdf

Warrior

of them all, in 35 and 7mm, i like the GK

quote:

Sierra Game King vs Hornady Interlock vs Speer Hot Cor

quote:

is any significantly better than the other?

My "prejudice" runs to Hornady interlocks above the others.....how much better?....heaven only knows!

I tested some bullets on water jugs.

From left to right out of my 257 Roberts

117 Sierra Prohunter
120 Gameking
115 Ballistic Tip
110 Accubond

If I was hunting water jugs using conventional bullets, I'd take the 115 Ballistic tip.




From left to right out of my 338 Federal

185 Barnes TTSX
200 Federal Fusion (bonded)
200 Interlock
200 SST
210 Gameking

If I was hunting water jugs with conventional bullets, I'd take the 200 Interlock. Shockingly, the Gameking didn't open.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
One of the biggest problems with conventional lead-core soft nosed bullets, arising from increased velocity with present day cartridges is bullet disintegration. Almost all jacketed bullets use gilding metal for jacket material, and after the many cup forming operations needed, the jacket is hard and brittle, and thus fractures on impact, instead of stretching and flowing evenly with the soft lead core to take the shape of an even mushroom. In fact when the soft lead flows beyond the support of the brittle jacket, it looses its integrity, and the soft lead will then fragment or even disintegrate at high impact velocities. Once this jacket-core separation has occurred, the core is no longer protected and so the integrity of the bullet is lost.

Fragmentation or shattering causes a reduction in bullet weight (i.e. terminal momentum), and this typically happens within the first 2 to 3 inches in an animal, with the result that deep penetration is impaired. Also, a higher impact velocity causes a bullet to set up quicker and as a result it penetrates less. So there is a compounding effect. However, spectacular kills with frangible bullets can be made with side-on shots behind the shoulder, where the bullet is able to explode in the animal's lungs without mush resistance and being closer to the vitals as with angling shots. The other negative of course with bullet disintegration is that it and sprays millions of lead particles in the surrounding wound track, unlike the case with controlled expanding bullets that retain most of their weight.

These conventional lead core bullets, with their thin copper jackets, do not have a high-threshold strength. Furthermore, the copper jackets are typically as thin on bigger caliber bullets as they are on smaller caliber bullets, despite different energy levels. The conventional bullet design of today is basically the same as in 1889 when Captain Rubin of the Swiss army invented jacketed bullets, when rifle velocities were fairly modest (just to remind you, the 7x57 mm Mauser was considered fast at 2,300 fps at the time).

Generally, non bonded, thin-jacketed conventional bullets worked well at impact velocities between 1,900 and 2,100 fps. For example, a 30-06 Spr with a muzzle velocity of 2,625 fps will do about 2,050 fps at 250 yards at which distance the bullet will do its best work. I consider conventional bullets as basically outdated with our faster cartridges of today, as they too frangible as a hunting bullet. However, if they are used sensibly, within their threshold strength, they work fine, but they are certainly not a versatile design to use on angling shots where deep penetration is required and at close range with concomitant high impact velocities.

These are 7 mm bullets - the far right bullet is a conventional lead-core bullet - showing core/jacket separation it only made 4 inches into a wetpack of newsprint - the lead disintegrated and only the jacket could be retrieved.



Warrior

I agree with 95% of what you said. I think cup n cores can do a little better than 1900-2100 fps. I would suggest keeping muzzle velocity under 2700 fps. It also depends on what you are hunting and what caliber/weight you are using.

I can see the one on the left is a Barnes. What are the 2 in the middle? Looks like a Partition and a Fusion. At What velocity where you testing them?

I have killed a good many deer with Sierra bullets in the 270 and 7x57. The flat based Pro Hunter penetrates better than the Game King Boat Tail bullet.

Most of my killin' has been with Nosler BT's and Sierra Pro Hunters on whitetails loaded at about 2750, my magic velocity for the NBT and Sierrra bullets for pass thru shots and good blood trails.

That being said, my good luck with these bullets, both Sierra and Nosler, is a function of their accuracy and not their ability to hold together at high velocity.

If I were hunting big tough game, and for hog killin' the Nosler Partition is my pick. They will penetrate the shield of a boar hog. Merg

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
One of the biggest problems with conventional lead-core soft nosed bullets, arising from increased velocity with present day cartridges is bullet disintegration. Almost all jacketed bullets use gilding metal for jacket material, and after the many cup forming operations needed, the jacket is hard and brittle, and thus fractures on impact, instead of stretching and flowing evenly with the soft lead core to take the shape of an even mushroom. In fact when the soft lead flows beyond the support of the brittle jacket, it looses its integrity, and the soft lead will then fragment or even disintegrate at high impact velocities. Once this jacket-core separation has occurred, the core is no longer protected and so the integrity of the bullet is lost.

Fragmentation or shattering causes a reduction in bullet weight (i.e. terminal momentum), and this typically happens within the first 2 to 3 inches in an animal, with the result that deep penetration is impaired. Also, a higher impact velocity causes a bullet to set up quicker and as a result it penetrates less. So there is a compounding effect. However, spectacular kills with frangible bullets can be made with side-on shots behind the shoulder, where the bullet is able to explode in the animal's lungs without mush resistance and being closer to the vitals as with angling shots. The other negative of course with bullet disintegration is that it and sprays millions of lead particles in the surrounding wound track, unlike the case with controlled expanding bullets that retain most of their weight.

These conventional lead core bullets, with their thin copper jackets, do not have a high-threshold strength. Furthermore, the copper jackets are typically as thin on bigger caliber bullets as they are on smaller caliber bullets, despite different energy levels. The conventional bullet design of today is basically the same as in 1889 when Captain Rubin of the Swiss army invented jacketed bullets, when rifle velocities were fairly modest (just to remind you, the 7x57 mm Mauser was considered fast at 2,300 fps at the time).

Generally, non bonded, thin-jacketed conventional bullets worked well at impact velocities between 1,900 and 2,100 fps. For example, a 30-06 Spr with a muzzle velocity of 2,625 fps will do about 2,050 fps at 250 yards at which distance the bullet will do its best work. I consider conventional bullets as basically outdated with our faster cartridges of today, as they too frangible as a hunting bullet. However, if they are used sensibly, within their threshold strength, they work fine, but they are certainly not a versatile design to use on angling shots where deep penetration is required and at close range with concomitant high impact velocities.

These are 7 mm bullets - the far right bullet is a conventional lead-core bullet - showing core/jacket separation it only made 4 inches into a wetpack of newsprint - the lead disintegrated and only the jacket could be retrieved.



Warrior

I agree with 95% of what you said. I think cup n cores can do a little better than 1900-2100 fps. I would suggest keeping muzzle velocity under 2700 fps. It also depends on what you are hunting and what caliber/weight you are using.

I can see the one on the left is a Barnes. What are the 2 in the middle? Looks like a Partition and a Fusion. At What velocity where you testing them?

This is a complete fabrication for the most part. All standard soft point bullets have different core hardnesses, jacket tapers and jacket hardness/stiffness qualities. It is only the most unusual circumstance that standard bullets like the Interlok and Hotcor bullets fail. I know this because I have used them to take countless big game animals. Some of these bullets didn't exit and some didn't look like the deadliest mushroom in the woods but all killed the game I shot at. In 38 years of hunting I have had three true bullet failures, one that overexpanded, and two that did not expand. I still recovered the animals in question but things would have been far easier if that early Barnes X bullet had expanded just a bit. No bullet is perfect, it all comes down to placement.

quote:

I can see the one on the left is a Barnes. What are the 2 in the middle? Looks like a Partition and a Fusion. At What velocity where you testing them?

Scottfromdallas,



Some 7-mm bullets I tested as per the photo above:

All conventional type bullets fail my wetpack test with regular monotony. The photograph tells the story of four of the many 7 mm bullets that I have fired into wetpacks at 25 yards. I used my 7 x 57 mm Mauser and the muzzle velocity oscillated around 2,400 fps and impact velocity is about 40 to 50 fps less.

1) Far left - sterling performance from the Barnes-X bullet - no weight loss and a perfect mushroom. One can clearly notice how its petals that are thinning towards the front are spiraled by the induced twist, showing the twist-force present on impact. Around 2,700 fps impact velocity one will lose petals, so this bullet offers a very wide performance band from 2,000 fps up to 2,700 fps.

2) Second from left - The Nosler Partition (160 gr) will almost always lose its front core, disintegrating in the target. The rear core is protected and provides a retained weight of 67.5% to ensure acceptable penetration in most cases. The picture shows its thin petals being folded back close to the shank at 2,420 fps and invariably pieces of the jacket are torn off. I regard it as a compromise hunting bullet, as we have better ones today. They provide quick kills on lung shots as the front core disintegrates and always expand at long range when the velocity drops down to around 1,900 fps. The new and improved Partition Gold bullet provides better weight retention (87%) and a sturdier mushroom making it more capable for larger game.

3) Third from left - The Claw bond-core bullet (175 gr), made from 1 mm copper tubing. At 2,391 fps the bullet lost only 1 grain of its weight - 99.4% weight retention. This bullet forms a nice big mushroom of 19 mm and makes an excellent hunting bullet at a very economical price. I have not checked this bullet out at 7 mm Rem Mag velocities, but suspects that it would over expand. Magnums were designed for flatter trajectories over longer ranges and not the mistaken view of some journalists that write that "magnums hit harder at all ranges". When high-velocity magnums are used as intended over longer ranges, it allows the bullet to lose velocity before it impacts.

4) Far right - The Sierra Game King bullet (175 gr) - a misnomer in my opinion, as it is everything but a bullet intended for game and definitely not to a king's taste. The lead-core disappeared and disintegrated completely - all I could find was this peace of jacket - 28.5% retained weight @ 2,370 fps. Penetration was shallow (3.5 inches to be exact), as it lost most of its weight and thus its momentum. What remained of the thin petals, were just folded back close to the shank. What would happen at 7 mm Rem Mag velocities? In game we notice the same trend and the lead disintegrates and contaminates the surrounding wound track. I have witnessed how a kudu ran away after being shot on the shoulder with one of these bullets. Then the factory has the audacity to call it a "Game King". Most other thin-jacketed conventional bullets behave in a similar fashion - clearly outdated and just not good enough. Remember, the bullet is doing the killing and not your fancy rifle or the overly large cases that impress you as to how much propellant they can hold!

5) The Rhino Solid Shank bullet that I used more often than not is not shown in this photograph, but it gives me consistently a 99% weight retention ratio at 2,350 fps, it mushrooms to 17 mm. In a typical hunting situation at 100 yards this load will yield a striking velocity of 2,150 fps, which I consider as most ideal. My experience is that at this impact velocity you get a slower set-up rate of expansion, maximum weight retention and beautiful mushrooms as the petals are not over stressed. I just believe that a bullet is so much more effective when it stays together and it is directed at the vitals fully expanded with no loss of petals to cut the largest wound channel possible. A mere 200 fps velocity differential makes a notable difference in most bullets, especially when you border on its threshold limit.

Kobus van der Westhuizen of Rhino Bullets employs the principle of designing his bullets with thicker jackets as energy levels go up - they measured as follows:

Bullet -------- Wall Tickness --- Percentage
.458 - 500 Gr ---- 2.82 mm -------- 259%
.375 - 300 Gr ---- 2.26 mm -------- 207%
.308 - 180 Gr ---- 1.91 mm -------- 175%
.277 - 150 Gr ---- 1.52 mm -------- 139%
.243 - 100 Gr ---- 1.09 mm -------- 100%

The Sierra has a very thin jacket of 0.45 mm right through like most other conventional types. The PMP ProAmm thickens towards the mid-point to arrest expansion, but it is not bonded and thus it breaks up too at higher velocities. ProAmm is not a premium grade bullet, but it is a notch up from PMP's standard bullet. The Hornady features slightly thicker walls than the Sierra (0.46 mm at the tip and 0.55 mm at the base) with a tiny 'interlock' feature, but it is not of much help either at higher velocities.

Warrior

This seems to be going where I had hoped it wouldn't!

I've my eye on two bullets for my 8x60S.

The 175 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter at around 2,750fps for general use and the 200 grain Speer Hot-Cor at around 2,600fps as a heavy close range bullet (under seventy-five yards) for pig where I want penetration and also deer where I don't want much meat damage.

I'm currently trying the Hornady 150grain and Hornady 195grain Interlock bullets in 8mm. I've yet to hear any bad reports of any Hornady Interlock in thirty years of shooting.

I'd consider them ideal for my 8x60S except the crimp cannelure is in the wrong position if I want to use the cannelure I seated well into the case and lose the advantage of the Mauser in being able to seat bullets far out.

The reports on the Game King bear out what I hear a lot of here in UK. That it is an accurate bullet but that it doesn't hold together.

Are the Sierra Pro-Hunter any better in that respect?

The Speer Hot-Cor surprises me especially the reported failure on a muntjac which is about the same body size as a large German Shepherd.

Significance of thicker jackets

I have also conducted a test with 9,3 mm copper-jacketed (not gilding metal) Claw bond-core bullets that are made in South Africa - very similar to the American made Hawk bullet. Claw's standard version comes with a jacket wall thickness of 1 mm. As I was not happy with the weight retention ratio in the 9,3 calibre, I ordered it with no cannelure and 2-mm jacketed walls to avoid petals that shear off and to better protect the relatively soft inner lead-core. I shot both versions of the same bullet in my 9.3 x 62 with the same charge of propellant. The wetpack had a 1-INCH dry telephone directory in front and the rest was soaked newspapers that I clamped down in a vice-type framework. It shows that the thinner constructed bullet to be much more susceptible to shear forces and torque. The results speak a thousand words:

Bullet ------------- Muzzle Velocity --- Retained weight --- % retained

270 gr Claw 2 mm --- 2,307 fps ---------- 266.2 gr ----------- 98.6%
286 gr Claw 1 mm --- 2,252 fps ---------- 119.2 gr ----------- 41.7%

The petals of the thin-jacketed bullet all sheared off. I strongly suggest you pay the additional cost for the thicker walled Claw bullet, as the cost of bullets still remain the cheapest item of your hunt. The 2 mm jacketed bullet gave absolutely sterling performance. Andre van der Merwe of Claw bullets will make any bullet weight of your choosing up to 330 grains for the 9,3 or thicker jacket walls on request to customer order.

Up to 9,3 calibre I prefer no cannelure (crimping grooves) on the bullet, as it weakens the jacket affording the bullet the opportunity to tear or fold. Unfortunately with higher recoiling cartridges one has to have crimping grooves to avoid bullets moving farther into the case due to higher recoil that is absorbed by the bullets housed in the magazine. Cutting crimping grooves or perforated cannelures in thin jacketed bullets is only exacerbating an already bad situation. In the case of the Claw bullet, thicker jackets are needed to counter over-expansion, tearing at the cannelure and shearing of petals.

Comparison of 2 mm vs 1 mm walled Claw bullet:



Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
This seems to be going where I had hoped it wouldn't!

I've my eye on two bullets for my 8x60S.

The 175 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter at around 2,750fps for general use and the 200 grain Speer Hot-Cor at around 2,600fps as a heavy close range bullet (under seventy-five yards) for pig where I want penetration and also deer where I don't want much meat damage.

I'm currently trying the Hornady 150grain and Hornady 195grain Interlock bullets in 8mm. I've yet to hear any bad reports of any Hornady Interlock in thirty years of shooting.

I'd consider them ideal for my 8x60S except the crimp cannelure is in the wrong position if I want to use the cannelure I seated well into the case and lose the advantage of the Mauser in being able to seat bullets far out.

The reports on the Game King bear out what I hear a lot of here in UK. That it is an accurate bullet but that it doesn't hold together.

Are the Sierra Pro-Hunter any better in that respect?

The Speer Hot-Cor surprises me especially the reported failure on a muntjac which is about the same body size as a large German Shepherd.

The Sierra's really depend on the weight and caliber. They build them for different applications. The over 30 Sierra's are pretty tough. The 215 Gameking driven at 2500 FPS would not open. You can see from the pic how thick the jacket is at the front. I know someone that tried a similar test with the Sierra out of a 338-06 in phone books with no expansion.

As a general rule, cup n cores are terrific out of moderate velocity rounds. Premiums were developed because magnums pushed CC bullets to fast causing failures.

I have 3 rifles, a 257R, 308, 338 Federal. For deer, I might use an Accubond out the 257 for trophy hunt. The 308 and 338 will kill any deer in North America with plain jane bullets.

IMO, the Interlocks are generally a little stouter that the Sierra (215 GK the exception). I hear Hot Cors are great bullets but they are being phased out for the Deep Curl bonded bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Significance of thicker jackets

I have also conducted a test with 9,3 mm copper-jacketed (not gilding metal) Claw bond-core bullets that are made in South Africa - very similar to the American made Hawk bullet. Claw's standard version comes with a jacket wall thickness of 1 mm. As I was not happy with the weight retention ratio in the 9,3 calibre, I ordered it with no cannelure and 2-mm jacketed walls to avoid petals that shear off and to better protect the relatively soft inner lead-core. I shot both versions of the same bullet in my 9.3 x 62 with the same charge of propellant. The wetpack had a 1-INCH dry telephone directory in front and the rest was soaked newspapers that I clamped down in a vice-type framework. It shows that the thinner constructed bullet to be much more susceptible to shear forces and torque. The results speak a thousand words:

Bullet ------------- Muzzle Velocity --- Retained weight --- % retained

270 gr Claw 2 mm --- 2,307 fps ---------- 266.2 gr ----------- 98.6%
286 gr Claw 1 mm --- 2,252 fps ---------- 119.2 gr ----------- 41.7%

The petals of the thin-jacketed bullet all sheared off. I strongly suggest you pay the additional cost for the thicker walled Claw bullet, as the cost of bullets still remain the cheapest item of your hunt. The 2 mm jacketed bullet gave absolutely sterling performance. Andre van der Merwe of Claw bullets will make any bullet weight of your choosing up to 330 grains for the 9,3 or thicker jacket walls on request to customer order.

Up to 9,3 calibre I prefer no cannelure (crimping grooves) on the bullet, as it weakens the jacket affording the bullet the opportunity to tear or fold. Unfortunately with higher recoiling cartridges one has to have crimping grooves to avoid bullets moving farther into the case due to higher recoil that is absorbed by the bullets housed in the magazine. Cutting crimping grooves or perforated cannelures in thin jacketed bullets is only exacerbating an already bad situation. In the case of the Claw bullet, thicker jackets are needed to counter over-expansion, tearing at the cannelure and shearing of petals.

Comparison of 2 mm vs 1 mm walled Claw bullet:



Warrior

Interesting post. How far did each bullet penetrate?

It surprised me too 'Spares, to be fair it was a boat-tail design which is generally acknowledged to be softer than the flat bases but I must say that I didn't expect it to disintegrate completely.

On the advice of Gerry i'm now shooting Hornady Interlocks for next season.

With my 30/06 I can shoot a 150gr bullet at 3000
FPS. My 150 could shoot all those animals with no problem using Hornady bullets or the sierra.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
With my 30/06 I can shoot a 150gr bullet at 3000
FPS. My 150 could shoot all those animals with no problem using Hornady bullets or the sierra.

I loaded the Speers that fast to begin with in my '06, unfortunately I blew up a Chinese Water Deer with the load and since have kept that bullet to 2850 fps.

quote:

The Speer Hot-Cor surprises me especially the reported failure on a muntjac which is about the same body size as a large German Shepherd.

Again, IME, as long as IV stays below 2800fps, the HotCore works as well as any cup.core. I took an antelope @ about 150yds w/ a 145gr/7mm @ 3000fps. It showed fragmentation, although I did get complete broadside penetration, the exit wound was huge. It just reinf my choice of "premium" bullets for hunting where you have no idea what range you will encounter game or if hunting in close w/ high vel rounds.

I have used the 200 gr 8mm Hot-cor on both boar and deer and the performance is very good. I shoot a 8mm-06 and the Hot-Cor seems to be a good match for that type of moderate velocity. If I were shooting something faster like the 8mm RM, then I would choose a different bullet.

I have also used the 129 gr Interlock with my 6.5 Remington Mag. It also does well on boar and deer.

I prefer not to use tougher bullets unless I am using a magnum round like the 264 Winchester. It's my experience that the Hot-Cor and Interlock bullets work well unless they are pushed to extreme velocity.

Remington developed and re-designed their Core-Lokt bullet and now offer a superior product to discerning hunters - it is called the Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded. Being a bonded bullet, it affords much better weight retention than conventional lead-core bullets. The Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded features a progressively tapered jacket design, which better controls expansion to 1.8 times of original diameter. Clearly Remington identified this need to offer a better hunting bullet, combining the 3 aspects that need to be balanced - an expanding bullet to form and keep its mushroom shape, affording deep penetration through adequate weight retention and a bullet that does not over expand to inhibit penetration. Bullets are all about a balance between integrity, expansion and penetration.

Warrior

Warrior, in the big bore forum Michael tested the Remington wonder bullet. Like some other bonded bullets it can over expand with velocity which limits penetration on big animals.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by michael458:
225 Remington Bonded bullet (whatever they call it). This is an ugly bullet! Not polished up real well, little scraggly around the edges and so forth. It is very accurate in my 338 WSM however. We can see a huge difference in performance at the two different velocities. Good or bad, depends on the mission. In the 338 Ultra this is my new baboon bullet! I think it could even be slowed down some in the 338 Winchester and get a bit better penetration, if I needed penetration. As it is now, it's a great baboon exploder.




Now the 225 Remington in the 338 Winchester.

And this is in the 338 Ultra


This was extreme transfer of damage to target. I can almost imagine busting a baboon with one of these in the 338 Ultra! Just about perfection I say!

But look at that bullet, looks more like a snail trying to crawl around on the paper! It's messed up bad! Would not use this bullet on a zebra, not at that velocity! Might get lucky, but I would go with something a little tougher!

A great bullet for baboons--and smaller exploding critters!

He also tested the lowly cup and core Interlock. I'm just saying cup and cores are still good bullets depending on the game, velocity and bullet design.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK first up is the 225 Hornady Interlock. This is a bullet I have on hand that shoots very good in my 338 WSM. I have not tested in that, but at velocities it runs, 2700 fps or so with 225s this bullet will penetrate deeper, and most likely look a bit better at the end. We put it to the test in both 338 Winchester and 338 Ultra at fairly good velocities for the cartridges. I see my label on the 338 WInchester missing the penetration, I am sorry, it's 14 Inches for the 338 Winchester bullet, not bad for the 225 class, I dare say at 2700 fps or so, penetration would increase to 16 or so.


11 inches for the Ultra is getting a bit on the low side for me. Good pig, impala, deer bullet I would think. Probably some larger animals too, hartebeast, mule deer I suppose. But if wildebeast or zebra were on the menu, I think I would rather have a heavier bullet.