I am looking to build up a .338 but don't want to deal with the existing belted magnums. I want around .338 Win levels of performance and am using a 24" barrel and Mod 70 long action. I'd prefer a short/squat platform and am an avid reloader with a weakness for unique chamberings (wildcats.) Is there a truely standout .338 out there? I need to find a smith with a reamer or be able to purchase a chambered barrel as I don't have a shop myself. I'd be very interested to hear what folks recommend.

Sounds like you're describing a 338 WSM to me. This should fill the bill. - Dan

Dan beat me to it, my other thought was a .338-06 maybe even the AI version? I have done real well with the std .338-06 on elk and a few heads of plains game too. Mine is a M70 CRF with a 24" Lilja barrel, and the current David Miller Sporter style walnut stock. Great rifle!

FN

the 330 Dakota loaded back a bit and you have your 338 Winchester magnum performance.

The 330 Dakota is the 404 case shortened back to 30/06 length and has a case capacity similar to the 340 Wby.

Mike

Two votes for the 330 Dakota and 1 for the 338RUM The RUM is a takeoff on the Dakota "semi-wildcat" which is a takeoff on the Chas. Newton series of cartridges from the 1920-40's.

The Dakota comes in a Winchester style long action, from the factory. Brass is pretty dear, guns more so� but they are for serious hunters, not your average stockbroker on an annual outing w/ "the guys."

And yes, I do own the 330 in a factory custom model. Superb rifle.

[ 05-28-2002, 10:00: Message edited by: centerpunch ]

Why not do it right and build a .333 Jeffrey?

Ditto the 330 Dakota...2.5" case on the Jeff to work in a "standard" LA. From a practical, shootable standpoint, the 2.5" Dakota's ARE what the UltraMag's SHOULD have been.

BA

Thanks for the input guys--Can the Dakota be chambered in a standard M70 LA? How "dear" is the brass? Tell me more about the .333 Jeffery. Finally, I heaqr they're going to standardize the .338 WSM soon, are reamers available yet? Thanks again guys!

You know, after reading about the .358RUM, that a guy built in American Rifleman, I decided I want one. He just necked up the RUM to .358. I think that might fit the bill. You also have the 338RUM. Alot of reloading data on that.

snowcat - The .330 Dakota will fit any standard action. Case dimensions are as follows

Brass OAL - 2.540
Base To Neck - 2.203
Base To Shoulder - 2.066
30 Degree Shoulder
Base Width - .545
Shoulder Width - .530

The Dakota gives up a few fps to the RUM, but fits any action. The RUM brass OAL is 2.760 for a comparison.

Brass is premium stuff with a premium price. I have reloaded several lots of mine over 10 times. Simply anneal the neck and neck only size and the brass will last a long time. I have not checked brass pricing lately, but expect to pay about $2 each.

May I suggest:

.338x68. ( 8x68S case, eventually blown out, shoulder moved forward )

Once you have the reamer and results, tell us. I�m sure there would be others interested :-))

Hermann

I to will vote for the 330 Dakota!!
Or you can go down to a 338-06, or up to the 338 RUM.
I does'nt sound stupid that 338"-68 suggestion either. Would that one be called 33 Newton, then??
(358"-68 is called 35 Newton.)

The .333 Jeffrey is based on the .404 case shortened to 2.48" and loaded with .333" (not .338") bullets of 250-300 grains. It's a classic British medium bore, introduced in 1908 and very popular in Africa at least until the second world war. Bullets are available from Woodleigh and you can get a reducing die to squeeze .338s down as well. Ammo is even available, though not cheap, from Westley Richards ( http://www.westleyrichards.com ) and Kynamco ( http://freespace.virgin.net/kynoch.ammunition/contents.htm ). Both sites have pictures....

I agree with many that the WSM case is not quite long enough to reach bore capacity in a .338.

This is why I feel that there is room for a factory line with that basic case RUM/WSM but to a COL of 3.3".

I wonder why Ruger does not make a move on a new rifle cartridge? I know they don't make ammo but neither does USRAC.

Don,

Ruger has introduced it's own cartridge in it's 480 handgun round, in colaboration with Hornady. They also collaborated in the introduction of the 17 Hornady Rimfire Magnum. Who knows, maybe they are working on a new rifle round?

Don't recall it's designation, but the .338 cartridge in the Howell line (lengthened .30/06 case) would perform similarly to the .338 Winchester and would give you 5 in the magazine, compared to 3 with most of the fat cases.

But what, other than current fashion, do you have against the belted .338? The belt really isn't in the way of feeding or magazine stacking, and serves as a fail-safe headspacing mechanism if you screw up and shove the case shoulder too far back. True, belted cases are out of fashion right now, but they are common, inexpensive, and while the belt may be unnecessary in a sharp-shouldered design, it is redundant, not excessive.

Check out the 338 Hawk at www.z-hat.com
I am very pleased with mine. I can reproduce the velocities in the published data with my 24" barrel with no pressure signs at all.

Stonecreek,

I know you are asking Snowcat but you only have to feel inside a fired belted case and you will know what I don't like about the concept.

The web of a case is the weak point and rimless cartridges that headspace on the shoulder are so much longer lived and safer.

Half of the nice old M-70's I have are chambered for belted cases. I deal with it but you can't beat the 30/06 case for long life and feeding and safety and magazine capacity and popularity.

Snowcat: Take a look at the 375 Scovill that is listed in the new Barnes manual. You can push a 250 grain bullet at 2700 fps and make a bigger hole all with the beltless 30-06 case and less powder.

.338-284 or .330 Dakota

Say,what is wrong with building a 338 Ultra mag?
I did this with a model 70 pre 64 action. I already had a 338 stock & barrel. I have no complaints about this caliber. It has more energy than the 340 Weatherby. A long range gun for sure.

Seamus,

Necking up through 2 caliber ranges, that is 7mm to 338, is never the best idea in town. The you have potential conversion problems with 338/284

338/06 far better. Just a slight neck down of 35 Whelen. 100 % guaranteed success in conversion from 270 or 30/06.

330 Dakota considerations are brass and cost and success of rifle conversion.

Another thought. You will probably find (I base this on having had the 35 Whelen) that a 338/06 or 338/06 Improved loaded to full potential will give ballistics very similar to standard Winchester 338 factory ammo. That is, actual velocity, not what is in the tables.

Mike

Obviously your question was related to a beltless .338. I like "beltless"... I've got a 300 WSM that is threatening to be my "one-rifle-rifle."

However, in the .338" bore I just don't think you can beat the 338 Win Mag for all-around versatility. It works well in a 22" barrel (2,850 fps with 225's) and does most anything you could ask of this bore... really, it's a very nicely "balanced" round... in my mind, about "ideal" for it's bore with very managable recoil.

The belt doesn't bother me a whit. I headspace on the shoulder after the initial first-fire. If you don't want to do that, you can do what Bob338 (of AR) does... buy Norma 358 brass and neck it down, headspacing from the first shot onward on the shoulder... he reports upwards of 12 re-loads per case this way.

Obviously you're looking for something with a bit more "jazz." However, for pure utility and practicality it's difficult to beat the circa 1958 338 Win Mag!

Brad

[ 05-30-2002, 10:24: Message edited by: Brad ]

Brad,

I think if I had a 338 Wicnhester and was all concerned about headspace with new brass etc. then I would just neck it up to 375 and then run it back through the 338 sizing die so that there was either a crush fit or a it ould take .002" or .003" of shim between bolt face and bolt.

Mike

Mike, I agree... that's probably the easier way to go. I can understand using the Norma brass though... that stuff is good! Me, I just shoot the standard 338's once, then headspace on the shoulder... life's too short.

Brad

Brad,

I have had bench rest style rifles in 270, 308, 300 Win, 338 Win, 358 STA and 375 H&H.

All barrels had been chambered with JGS reamers for about .003" headspace on new brass. The accuracy I got from new brass on the belted ones (including fireforming the 358 STAs from new 375s) was as good as with any other loads after cases had been fired.

My experience with 338 Win is quite limited. However with 375 H&H, they will usually shoot real good with as smuch as .010" headspace. The smaller calibers like 270 and 300 seem to generally lose accuracy when heaspace gets out past .005"

Cases with headspace usually seem to shoot best with the bullet back off the rifling and neck sized seems to go better when bullet is easted.

Actually I like belted cases because I shoot a lot of very reduced loads and rimless cases increase their headspace with each shot under those conditions.

Also, in outposts like Australia it seems to take a long time for all this new stuff to find its way down here. Go to one of our big gun shops and ask for 500 WSMs or Rem Ultra cases and they would look at you like you were mad. Of course you could be a real hero and ask for 500 of the Short Remington cases, now that would be something. But you would need a wheel barrow to carry out those 375s and 300 Winchester cases.

I wonder if the 375 WSM comes out will H&H and Purdey immediately order reamers for it

Mike.

I'd like to give another plug for the 338-06 Ackley Improved. (I just had one built and it is being bedded and finished as we speak). Anyway, with s 24" tube it should be right on the heals of the 338 winnie and wsm. Though it doesn't have the extra whop of the Dakota, it does have something the others do not.... an extra poke in the magazine! Nevermind, cheap brass and all the other stuff. I test fired it last week and it was reminisant of shooting my 12ga. In other words, very agreeable!

I am so giddy about hunting elk, bear, whitetail, and mulies with this piece this fall!

I'm going to be perverse here and suggest that, if the .338/'06 is too sluggish for you (Elmer Keith thought the .333 OKH was about the ultimate beltless), try a .338 Gibbs. In a 26" tube, it will equal the .338 Winchester, uses less powder, uses cheaper cases, and you can put five of them in the magazine of a Win. M70 or M98 Mauser.

The .333 Jeffery and .318 Westley-Richards are indeed the venerable classics, with a prime reputation over many decades of successful use.

If one wants a more "modern middle" cartridge, it is very hard to top the supreme German semi-wildcat (meaning that it has been CIP standardized since 1983) 8,5 x 63 "Reb". Excellent design parameters and superb performance. The inventor (wildcatter, gunwriter, and husband to a safari outfitter, when he does not pretend to work for living as a state forester ;-) ) is also reachable via email, actively participates in 'Net discussions, and is soon having cases and cartridge factory produced.

If you want something exquisitely arcane, use the new 8,5 x 64, a wildcat built on the 9,3 x 64 case. A young gunsmith near to my place built it for Lutz Moeller. He has the reamers, and the whole project is described in extenso et cum gloria on Lutz Moeller's website. This includes the full (!) chamber drawings with all measurements.

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/8,5x64/8,5x64_Patrone.htm

Warning: takes extremely long to load. Have a cigar and a bottle of port handy.

Regards,
Carcano
carcano91@hotmail.com

[ 05-31-2002, 21:47: Message edited by: carcano91 ]

No-brainer: the 330 Dakota.

Shorten the 8x68 to 2.5 inches and neck it to 338 and you would have a 33 Newton. It would be essentially the 338 Win without the belt. Brass would be a little pricey I suppose but that's life. Regards, Bill

Been away for a few days and came back to...overload! I need to do some research and am printing the thread as we speak. I'm very interested in the Norma brass conversion if anyone has any additional info--do you need to rechamber or leave just things as is? My concern with the belted cases is the web weakness, bulging at the belt with repeated firings and headspace problems. Can you neck-size only and get multiple reloadings from stock belted brass? I REALLY like the Dakota but shelling out $40 a box for brass and $150 plus for dies on top of chambering etc. argues strongly against it. Any info on the 338 Norma? It was suggestet to me today. Not much yet to offer but I'll do my home wrok and get back. Oh--will the 404 based rounds (RUMs) feed in a standard winnie long action? Thanks a million!!

Snowcat,

I have a 338-300 WSM, a 338 Lapua, and a 8.59 Titan (Lazzeroni), oh yeah, a few 338-06s too.

All beltless and all are good to very, very good for deer, elk, & bear