Kutenay, No problem here. I like everyone and enjoy reading what you have to say. The above post is nothing more than a suggestion. I think everyone has the right to disagree and express thier own opinion. Most of what's discussed here is just opinion formed from experience. Different things work for different people.
Ya know, I read something on another board the other day and it went like this "It's always been my own rule never to post anything that I wouldn't say across a table to a guy. Seems like that's a pretty good rule of thumb." I said to myself after reading this, That's a good measuring stick of should I post this or not. I'm gonna remember it and try to live by it.

Terry

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC1:
Ya know, I read something on another board the other day and it went like this _"It's always been my own rule never to post anything that I wouldn't say across a table to a guy. Seems like that's a pretty good rule of thumb."

---

You're right Terry. And I agree.

I *would* say what I've said, in person. I'm not ashamed of any of it. I doubt kutenay would do the same...

And I agree with your other post. I was trying to walk away, but kutenay wants to keep challenging people. So it became put up or shut up.

I put up, but kutenay sidestepped it, again, so now I'm done.

This thread is heading nowhere but downhill.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kutenay:
If, Hot Core and Cold Bore will reciprocate, then this whole matter is over,

---

Deal.

There is a group of guys at a club I belong to that are really into the longrange stuff. They won't even think about shooting at a deer under 500 yards. The field rests they have weigh several times more than their rifles. All custom jobs made by a local master machinist.

Calibers are almost all 30. with 300 Weatherby, 300 WM, and even a 30-378 Weatnerby, being the most popular(among that crowd)

One thing they all have in common is that they all have big, custom muzzle brakes. (made by the same machinist) They increase the noise dramatically, but also soften the recoil considerably.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kutenay:
I will NOT shoot over 300 yds. because that is the maximum length of my club range that I can practice on and I do not think that anyone should shoot at game over 400 yds., period. ...

---

quote:

---

posted by Terry:
"It's always been my own rule never to post anything that I wouldn't say across a table to a guy. Seems like that's a pretty good rule of thumb."

---

Terry, I've always lived by that. And if BSer kute was close at hand, his entire attitude would change.

I understand you do not prefer argumentative exchanges in the posts and neither do I. However, there comes a point where a person is so totally wrong that his foolishness should not go unchallenged. To let such stuff go has the potential to mislead the Rookies that just don't know better.

Let me recommend you go back and re-read "jethro's" original post at the top of the thread. In it he basically asked for information on how to go about acquiring the skills to shoot at long distance from people that have that experience.

Then you get to BSer kute's first "preaching" post and he is attempting to "talk down-to" anyone that shoots beyond 400yds and attempting to belittle the people who have put in the effort to make shots that are just impossible for him.

And he includes a totally goofy story about being able to tell a "specific" Elk was killed by a "specific" hunter using a 300Wby and drinking beer. Again implying that anyone shooting at distance must be a drunken slob who won't bother to go see if his shot(s) connected. Surely you see the humor in that.

Perhaps the 300WBY user shot an Elk at 50yds and celebrated with a cool one. There really is no way to know, unless you happened to be there when the shots were taken.

I consider making fun of BSer kute's foolishness better than getting down in the gutter with him.

---

Which brings me to this, I don't know you from anyone else on this Board. I respect your opinion to post whatever you want and look forward to learning from experiences you have had, that I have not.

But, I don't need a sermon about how and what I should post. If you don't like my posts, just skip right on by them. And I would be glad to explain that right in your face or anyone else's face if need be.

I don't mean that as a challenge to you. Just letting you know how I feel about "sermons".

Well, I think that the responses since my reply to Terry's comments demonstrate everything that needs to be shown here concerning the motivation and integrity of those concerned. From this point forward, I shall simply ignore H.C. and C.B., I do notice that I am NOT the only person who they find it convenient to disparage, but, their opinions and method of attacking others makes them quite obvious, the fatuous comments about making statements in person simply illustrate this further.

Ketenay, good move on the ignore. Your posts are to valuable and informative to be muddied by the likes of H.C. and his stooge.

Chuck

Hot Core, What I posted was not a sermon. It wasn't even directed at you. I just said what it ment to me, that's all. Did it strike a nerve?

Terry

This is the first time that I've read this thread, and I have to say, some of the comments have been absolutely incredible.

But to the topic at hand, I have one fundamental point to make about long-distance shooting, be it with the 7mm Rem. Mag. or anything else. There are some big, huge (and sometimes very ugly) differences between shooting at truly long range at paper from the bench or in competition, or from a tower stand overlooking a soybean field, and hunting under field conditions at extended range in the mountains with rifles you can actually haul up said mountains, then shoot under natural field conditions when you're breathing hard, often without a lot of time to get setup, often downhill, uphill, etc. And this shooting might be at trophy animals you've dreamed of hunting for years and have invested a considerable amount of time and money to go after.

What you can pull off on paper at the range back home can be a whole lot different than what you might be able to pull off on the mountain, and all too many times controlled shooting experiences gives a false sense of security and honest ability in the field. The true paper-punchers and naive pilgrims are the ones who shoot and wound at long range, and often when it was completely unnecessary to shoot at long range to begin with. I think the current long-range, "tactical" (I despise that term) craze has given too many guys some very silly notions about field shooting at long range. They think that because they can buy the gear and shoot tight groups on paper that they have automatically been elevated into long-distance riflemen, and that assumption can be a long, long way from the actual truth. And when animals end up suffering and being wasted from this New Age "tactical" bravado, I think is time for a general wakeup call on this entire concept. It's time to come back down to earth.

ALL of the accomplished long-range competitive shooters and riflemen I know who are also experience hunters will ALWAYS stalk closer if at all possible. None of them will take a 400 yard shot if it's possible to get 200 yds. closer. All of them can also keep their cool in the presence of game, which is bedrock in it's importance -- far more important than proper benchrest shooting techinque, and an acquired skill that only extensive field experience can develop. Shooting at big game animals at truly extended range should be treated as an only or last resort option, and should only be attempted under the right conditions.

Sometimes it's best to go with the old-fashioned notion of passing up the shot altogether. But that idea's pretty dull isn't it, and doesn't allow us to properly strut our stuff, right?????

The other side of this coin was summed up very well by Jack O'Connor who observed that "...distances get longer after they've been processed through the typewriter....". I agree with O'Connor, and I don't believe half of the claims I've heard and read about long-distance shooting in the field.

AD

Alright girls, back off, enough of this petty nonsense. Over the years I've known of several knowledgeable and agreeable members of websites simply up and quit subscribing to a forum because of this nonsense. We don't need to lose these kinds of members because of the childish antics of a few people who can't or won't act responsibly. Most of us don't give a damn who is right and who is wrong. It's not important. What's important is trying to be helpful and civil. If you can't meet this criteria please do all of us a favor and go elsewhere. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Holy cow! I haven't viewed my post in a few days, but this is ridiculous. This is one of the main reasons I've started going to other forums. I'm really not interested in hearing this crap. This may very well be my last visit to this site.

First off, I posed a question regarding performance. I didn't post to be lectured about hunting ethics. None of you know my experience level with long range shooting, nor do you know anything about the area I plan to use it in. I don't plan to tell you either, because I don't think it is relevant to this discussion and I could care less whether you know if I won any trophies or not. If you choose not to shoot beyond 300yds, fine. That is your choice and I respect it. But if I make the choice to shoot game at 800yds, that decision will be made based on numerous factors that can only be evaluated at that time by myself. I can look at numbers and do calculations all day long, and I have, but what I was looking for was comments on folks who have actually shot a custom 7mm RM at those ranges. Not someone who is happy with a 1 MOA rifle.

For those of you who actually gave me useful info, including Cold Bore and Hot Core, thanks. I've had to sift through allot of garbage, but did get some useful info.

From what I've seen with the long, long long range HUNTERS is that most are using 30 cal plus. I'm sure some are using 7mmWM but from the small amount of research I've done it's at least 7mmSTW amd more likely 300RUM amd up but it all depends on what species is involved.

Just asking cause i dont know.Didnt the snipers in vietnam shoot long range with a 270 & 30-06?What do they use today?Dont they shoot 1000yrds.?Why wouldnt a 7mm magnum match that?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Cane:
From what I've seen with the long, long long range HUNTERS is that most are using 30 cal plus. I'm sure some are using 7mmWM but from the small amount of research I've done it's at least 7mmSTW amd more likely 300RUM amd up but it all depends on what species is involved.

---

Hey Old Cane, Excellent post.

---

Hey Jethro, First off, you are welcome and don't forget AZ Writer.

Secondly, so now you are ready to bail out on old Cold Bore and me because Shimp, Larry and now Moe showed up along with the preachers. Come over here and bleed our brains dry for a bunch of good l-o-n-g range scoop and then take off to another Board.

Consider this coming from me about 3" from your nose and in a LOUD tone - DO NOT allow the fools to run you off!!!

We have to wade through the same recycled feed every time a shot longer than xxxyds is suggested as makeable. I can see why some folks are reluctant to bring up the longer shots due to the trash that fills the threads. But, if you just look at them with a "questioning" eye, you can see the humor. Just like BSer kute's World Class ability to read empty Beercans like a crystal ball.

However, no one would have a problem with one of them saying, "A shot at that distance is just too long for me and here is why..." That way they can enter the discussion, make valid points and either share something we can learn from, or perhaps learn something themselves. But, that is NOT thier agenda. If they can't feel like they are "talking down" to the Rookies then they don't post at all. Apparently they somehow have the totally false impression that "talking down" to the Rookies elevates their status. Obviously, just the opposite occurs as you witnessed.

For example, I see where ad is belitteling the guys that practice shooting - again! That is almost as ignorant as denton's suggestion to remove Live Primers in a Case by "Hammering on the Anvil". Of course, to take ad's post and extrapolate on it, then a person who never practices at all must NEVER miss or wound a Game animal.

And I suppose Cal and Terry are all upset that I would bother to point out the total stupidity of the above post by ad. When people enter a thread and post as if they are World Experts and hand out trash that defies simple common sense logic, it behoves those of us who know they are full-of-beans to point it out so the Rookies are not mislead.

Hang in there Jethro and let us know how well the "practice shooing" at distance goes.

Upset? Not me.

Terry

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC1:
Upset? Not me.

Terry

---

Good, glad to hear it.

Perhaps there is another thing we can agree on "if" I'm ...

Just erased it. As I read it back, it was a "SERMON" in discussion clothing.

Anyway, Terry I look forward to hearing your experience or tips that can help Jethro with his l-o-n-g distance shooting.

Geee, all this time I thought the Political Forum was fun, you guys are a riot.

Every time someone brings up LR target, someone brings up LR hunting and then the conversations leaves the paved road. There is a large difference between the two topics and should not be blurred together.

Everything I stated on my previous post is basic common-sense, 'Hunting 101' stuff. Any professional guide of experience or hunter of long experience would agree with my comments about long-distance shooting under actual, in-the-bush hunting conditions 100%.

Originally, Jethro, you wanted to know about the 7mm Rem. Mag. at long range, wanting to hear about experiences, etc. You then went on to state that you intended to hunt with said 7mm Rem. at up to 800 yds. (!). Do you intend to hunt off the bench somehow with a psuedo target rifle, or are you planning to shoot at that distance under actual field-type hunting conditions with a hunting-weight rifle? If it's the later, you really need to wake up and smell the coffee, because field shooting at 800 yds. with a 7mm Rem. Mag. (or any other cartridge) is an act of folly, make no mistake about it.

Like Zero said, there is a world of difference between long-range target shooting and long-range hunting, and that reality needs to be seen for what it is.

AD

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TC1:
Upset? Not me.

Terry

---

Good, glad to hear it.

Perhaps there is another thing we can agree on "if" I'm ...

Just erased it. As I read it back, it was a "SERMON" in discussion clothing.

Anyway, Terry I look forward to hearing your experience or tips that can help Jethro with his l-o-n-g distance shooting.

---

I've already given what experience I have at long range hunting which isn't much. It was my first post in this thread. I've done some long range target shooting, but not much long range hunting.

You want a tip, OK here goes. Take a pie plate, nail it to a tree about 36" off the ground. Get in your truck and drive about 7/16th of a mile (slightly less than 1/2 mile) get out and look at your pie plate. If you can even find it, take aim and shoot. Get back in your truck drive back 7/16th of a mile and inspect your pie plate. When you can hit the plate 8 out of 10 times, not just once but consistantly. Then you're ready.

Terry

I don't think people who hunt at 800+ yards are climbing a hill and see a deer and snap shoot it. I think this is a mis-conception to most of us. I believe there is a lot of time taken to set up a shot and some pretty high powered equipment involved, a spotter, maybe a ranging shot or two. I mean at 1 km a miss (ranging shot) on a deer might not even be noticed by the deer. People shoot other people at 1000+ yards. It can be done. No one talks about humane kills by our snipers.

I've not done much research on this but what little I did....these guys are serious, not a bunch of drunks. I do think though that Kute ran on to the exception by finding beer cans and empty cases (who'd leave a piece of Wby brass? You'd have to be drunk) but the miss could have been at 80 yards as well as 800. I htink we are talking about two different groups: 1) drunken slobs and 2) long range hunters. That's like talking about driving. There's 1) Me and 2) Richard Petty. Not even close.

Snipers working at that range are like to be using a 50 caliber on a mount with all sorts of special gear. I heard a Newfoundland sniper who was in on Anaconda, I think it was, in Afghanistan. In his interview he talked about a recorded a hit at something in excess of 1500 meters. He had ranging gear and a 50 cal. He also mentioned he missed the first couple of shots (and was likely not all that worried really about wounding rather than killing--what sniper is???).

So yes snipers do take really long shots sometimes. How does this compare to hunting game, exactly?

Edited: here is a link to the Canadian press article...BTW, This article states here the range was 2400 meters I had heard 1500 or 1700. Note that misses are common and only impt in that they may help the enemy locate you.

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres.asp

More from another article on that site about equipment:

The Canuck snipers were in their element. They continued their long-range shooting with their McMillan Brothers .50-cal. Tactical Anti-Materiel Sniper Rifle System. This is the new bolt-action, Long-Range Sniper Weapon (LRSW) that was only introduced to Canadian Infantry Battalions in April 2000. The LRSW is modified for Canadian Army use with a moveable cheek piece and shortened bipods, and is fitted with a 16x Leupold optical sight. It has a five-round magazine, weighs 12 kg./26.4 lbs., and is 145cm/58 in. in length. The Canadians push AMAX Match .50-caliber ammunition through it.

The spotter (secondary) or team commander, uses a C3A1 7.62mm Sniper Rifle — a Parker-Hale M82 modified to Canadian specs with a six-round detachable magazine, extended bolt handle, strengthened receiver, new trigger safety and a new match-type barrel. The C3A1 is fitted with a Unertl 10x optic (same as USMC-issue), and its usual fodder is Norma Match 7.62mm ammunition loaded with the Sierra Match King 168-gr. HPBT(M) bullet. The LRSW is fitted with Gen III and the C3 Gen II Simrad image-intensification devices for low-light work. For back up they both have the Canadian-made Diemaco C-8 5.56mm Carbine (analogous to the U.S. M4) and 9mm Inglis GP (M1935) Hi-Power pistol using standard service ammo. The teams also have 20-power compact spotting scopes, a Leica Vector binocular with built-in rangefinder, compass and inclinometer functions and a GPS uplink, in addition to normal field gear, camouflage, and ghillie suits: The Canadians put it all to use.
---
I say again: just how does this compare at all with hunting game?

The incident that I refered to took place in the Elk Valley of south-eastern B.C. in the spring of 1967, I was a sworn, serving member of the British Columbia Forest Service at the time as were two of the three men with me, the other one was the Game Warden at Fernie, B.C. We investigated this situation as part of our duties and we were satisfied that the rotting Elk carcass that we had found had indeed been shot from the promontory on the road where we also found the empty brass and beer cans. As the snow had just gone, we surmised that this was all done at the same time, based on what evidence we had.

I was involved in another such incident in the Slocan Valley-Koch Creek area of B.C. in the spring of 1969, also as a member of the B.C.F.S. This involved the long range sniping of Mtn. Goats with the subsequent wounding and death of these wonderful animals and this was found by the trapper, Sam Kania, of that area and was investigated by the Game Warden of the time, who was my neighbour in Nelson, B.C.; eventually charges were laid and the culprits fined, it came out in court that they had been drinking and shooting from the skid road with their .300 Weatherby rifles.

I am not in the habit of lying or b.s.ing, I simply wanted to make the point through truthful anecdote that shooting at game animals at extreme ranges, under field conditions is NOT an easy, or, in my opinion, an acceptable thing to do.Of course, I confine my comments to matters that I have actually experienced,so, maybe someone shooting farm fed Whitetails can drop 'em in the clover, from a highseat at a half mile, I can't, but, I have shot enough big game, in wilderness conditions to be a bit sceptical..............

quote:

---

Originally posted by kutenay:
Tell me something, you poser, what is your actual experience with real, wilderness living, hunting or even seeing BIG game??? You don't know jackshit about this or any other topic that you post your ignorant, scurrilous and self-aggrandizing bullshit remarks on; a number of the most experienced posters on this forum have shown you up for the halfwitted mouthpiece you are.

Why don't you go and play with your tame Whitetails that you boast about shooting on your plantation, Massa, or maybe go besport yourself down at the "quarters" like the inbred p.o.s. you are, GFY.

---

ROTFLMAO excellent

I cant speak about long range accuracy (I am excited to get 1 MOA). But as far as recoil goes, I have shot a lot of 300 WM and 7mmRM and both seem to kick similarly. I think you would be fine with either in a 12 lb rifle

I'd like to point out that Jethro did not say he was building a hunting rifle, but a tactical rifle. I figure that if you miss your shot with such a rifle, it depends upon whether you were trying to "relieve" a hostage situation or take out an artillery observer. In the latter case, you may pay dearly, and the former, the hostage may. In neither case is it "sporting." Kudude