My dad is getting a Ruger M77 stainless in 338 Win Mag.

He likes the performance on paper out to 200-300 yards, even with the starting loads.

He wants to use lighter weight X bullets, like the 160 gr., 175 gr., 185 gr., for deer, and 200-210 gr. X's for moose and bear.

Anybody with some experience with the 338 Mag, what do you have to say about it? Recoil, handloads, game performance, bullets, powders, etc. All info welcome.

[ 01-18-2003, 11:16: Message edited by: todbartell ]

Todd, for most uses you can stick with the 210 gr. or 225 gr. Nosler Partition and forget about everything else. Those ultra-light bullets (under 200 grs.) look enticing alright because of the high initial muzzle velocity, but they lack sectional density and ballistic coefficient, so they start to run out of steam pretty fast compared to the heavier bullets.

The .338 Win. Mag. is a superb all-around cartridge, but it's a heavy-bullet cartridge by design, and should be treated as such. Think of it as a big, ultra-powerful .30-06 with about the same trajectories. What the .30-06 is with 180 gr. bullets, the .338 Winchester is with 250 gr. bullets. Likewise, the '06 shooting 165 gr. bullets is like a less-powerful version of the .338 loaded with 225 gr. bullets, and the '06 loaded with 150 gr. bullets is similar to the .338 shooting 200 or 210 gr. bullets. Most people wouldn't hunt deer with a .30-06 loaded with bullets weighing less than 150 grs., and for the same reasons I wouldn't hunt deer (or anything else) with a .338 and bullets weighing less than 200 grs.

I just returned from a Texas hunt where I used my .338 Win. Mag. with 210 gr. Nosler Partitions on a mess of wild hogs (one old boar had to weight over 350 lbs.) plus a nice, old whitetail buck. Ranges were from point-blank to 250 yds. (on the big hog). Everything dropped on the spot, and all bullets went clear through. The whitetail was taken at a little over 100 yds. and he was dead before he hit the ground, and tissue damage was about what I'd expect out of a .270, only with a bigger exit hole.

I really like the 210 Nosler of all-around use in the .338, since it kicks very little, shoots flat, and penetrates all out of proportion to it's weight. Even on elk, I've had complete penetration on shoulder shots with the 210 gr. Nosler Partition. I'd use the 250s only for brown bear or as an all-around African load for plainsgame and cats.

I don't consider the .338 to be too big at all for deer hunting, and it's perfect for hogs, bears, elk, moose or just about anything else short of cape buffalo, hippo, elephant, or rhino. The .338 Win. Mag. is an ideal all-around rifle.

AD

My .338 and .330 Dakota only eats 250gr Nosler Partitions. I like heavy for caliber bullets because of their retained energy and terminal performance. Lighter bullets have their place, however, I don�t get too worried about bullet drop at extreme ranges.

The .338 is one of the most versatile calibers in my opinion. With a .338 and a .416, there is not much out there to be afraid of.

I think it's a total waste to use anything lighter than a 200g bullet in 338. I don't even use them, preferring to stick with 225 and 250g bullets for everything. If the light bullets are attractive, going to a smaller caliber would be the best thing to do.

I've went to the Sierra 250 gr. SPBT's years ago. I tried the lighter bullets, and they damaged way too much on deer and antelope. The 250 doesn't overexpand on the lighter stuff, and you have exit wound of maybe two inches, and you can eat up to the hole. And it is a good choice for elk, in my experience. Forget anything under 200 gr.

I think your dad is a smart man. Tell him I said so.

todbartel,

As I've posted before the 338 was my main rifle for many years and the advice you have already received about the 210 and 250 NP is all you need to know. These 2 bullets will cover everything. There is no need for the small X bullets.

Because of its vesatility and shootability you never have the wrong rifle for anything short of cape buffalo when you are carrying the 338.

Tod, Read Allan Day's post a couple of times, he is spot on. If you have a 338 with 210 Nosler Partitions all you need to add is a sharp knife.

Tod, like Allen and Bob I see absolutely no need for a bullet under 200 gr's weight in the 338. With the 210 Partition I took my biggest bull elk to date. I rear-shot him with the 210 Partition loaded at 2,950 fps... it did the job and yet that bullet shoots about as flat as a 150 gr in the 30-06... a trajectory that's very practical and hard to improve on much for nearly any game. As Allen said, apart from Brown Bears and heavy African game, it doesn't get any better than the 225 gr. bullet. I can't wait to try the new 225 Nosler bonded bullet... it has it all in spades... weight, shape, construction, SD, BC, blah, blah!

BA

I also agree with allen and the rest 338s are at home with the bullets over 200gr. I prefer 250s out of my 338 ultra mag, flat shooting enough for any sensible shot and do not like to stop for anything short of a 36in oak tree.The same holds for my 338 win mag .

[ 01-19-2003, 03:27: Message edited by: Reloader 1 ]

Now we're talking my baby. I call my .338Win Mag my "Right Arm" because it is so usefull. I used everything from the 175gr. X to the 250gr Hornady. I did like the light X bullet but found it short enough that to keep it anywear neer the lands it didn't keep full contact in the neck. It wasn't realy an issue though because it still kept about a 1 1/4" group. I used a 217gr.A frame @ 2875fps last fall to take a black bear lengthways with complete penitration, 3 1/2 feet, and LOTS of blood. If you want a lighter weight bullet I too will recomend no less than 200gr. You won't notice the difference in recoil, and the lighter bullets aren't any cheaper so you don't really gain anything. Just worked up a load for the 225gr. X bullet and it will probably be my new bear basher as my A-frames are almost gone. A .338 WinMag is the most well spent money since the invention of birth controle

It may be hard to believe, but I feel the accuracy of this caliber is way underrated. For those who don't own one and think it's great look at the numbers of B.C's, S.D's and weight ranges.

This will make your umpteenth recommnedation for 200's+++. I am leaving for a Texas hunt Wednesday and really would like to take the .338 instead of the new 6.5 WSM. This gun, with mild smithing is my most accurate rifle, that has shot in the .6's at 200 yards. Only a personal bias, but the Ruger could be upgraded to a Remington or Winchester.

Thanks for the replies.

Well, it seems the 210 gr. Partition is one hell of a popular bullet, just look at the Nosler web~site. They have the RMEF logo on the boxes of the new 210 gr. NP's. http://www.nosler.com/rmef.html

My dad's a real fan of the Barnes X. Something about that hollow point he says that gives him a good feeling when he loads his gun. The fact they always leave an exit hole is what he really likes. I'd say the lighter X's hold their "steam" pretty well, they can reach 200 yards with 2600-2900 ft-lbs, a little behind the 225-250 gr.'s 3000 ft-lbs. I believe energy is a little misleading, and is only one of the factors in big game shooting. Bullet construction is #1a, along with #1b, placement. A X bullet needs 80% of the weight of a Partition to do equal work. That means a 175 gr. X will behave like a 210 gr. Nosler, penetration wise. A 200 gr. X will equal a 250 gr. Nosler. This has been proven in tests on ballistic gelatin, but also on game, where it really matters. Not to say the Nosler Partition isn't a great hunting bullet, I used 2 of them on 2 deer this year!

Ideally with the lighter X's, we would get flat traj., and heavy-bullet performance, with somewhat lighter recoil(never shot a 338, so I just assume~physics).

Has anybody other than NBHunter & Kensco used lighter X bullets on game? I know most guys use their 338's on big stuff(elk, moose, bears, etc), but some must use theirs on deer, and maybe use a lighter bullet for that use. I know a 250 gr. Parsmash'em would kill a deer everytime, but some shooters like to switch loads around for diff. game being hunted. In my dad's case, he would sight-in again after moose season, for hunting deer.

Keep the comments comin'

todbartell -- I shoot two .340 Wby's. If I didn't have that extra speed the .340 furnishs, I might use the lighter bullets like the 210 grain Nosler. By having that speed, I shoot the 225 grain Barnes XLC and North Fork bullets, with great success. I have taken several Bull Elk with the XLC and get complete penetration out to 250 yards. I sometimes find sheared petals around the exit hole in the hide on the off side. North Fork also makes a 240 grain bullet that is very accurate, in both my rifles. My rifles like the Barnes XLC best, and only recently have I discovered the North Forks, that seem to be super accurate in all weights. Good shooting.

I pretty much agree with Allen Day on his view about .338WM bullets. However, strong and lightweight bullets such as the 185-grain Barnes XLC are being used to kill elk.

So at least in theory, a lightweight bullet such as the "X" should hold together at close range where the velocity is at maximum, and the extra velocity should allow it to expand well on game within 400 yards or more depending on the initial velocity. Other than that, lighter bullets shed velocity at a faster rate than similarly constructed and heavier ones. But keep in mind that a 180-grain XLC out of a 24" .338WM barrel reaches from 2,900 fps to 3,300 fps.

I will probably try some of the .225-Grain XLC on moose in the near future. I have the feeling these bullets will work very well, since the 230-FS I have been using have performed outstandingly. I only have a few Lubalox-coated FS left, and I don't want to use "Moly-coated" bullets such as the new FS from Combined Technology.

I doubt they or she posts here, but the first name with the above requirements is Barnes' own Connie Brooks. I think she uses a 338 with 180 XLC's exclusively.

Tod, problem with X's is a rifle generally either loves them or hates them so I wouldn't pin too much hope on them... my last 338 wouldn't shoot the 210 XBT's or 225 XLC's... the 210's went 2,940 fps in my 22" bbl. If they'd shot well I'd have used them exclusively... I don't call 2.5" groups at 100 yards acceptable. On the other hand my 308 loved 165 XBT's... .75" groups. Go figure.

The longer I've been at this game the less interested I am in more than one load in a given rifle... I find it simpler to pick one bullet for everything. If 210 XLCBT's shoot in your dad's rifle I'd look no further as that bullet will shoot plenty flat and penetrate as well as a 225 Partition (or a bit better)... I doubt you could ask for more than that.

BA

Bullet construction is #1a, along with #1b, placement, these go hand in hand. Shoot a grizzly in the shoulder with a 110 gr. V-Max @ 3900 fps out of a 300 WBY, you're in trouble. Hit him in the stomach with a 180 gr. Fail Safe, you're in trouble. Shoot him in the lungs with the V-Max, you're a bit better off, Fail Safe in the shoulder, you're laughing. This is why I test my bullets out in logs, sand, etc. before using them on game. I don't like to skimp on my hunting bullets. Doesn't seem like many 338 users do either. Premiums seem to be more popular in 338's than any other cartridge. Don't hear of many using Sierra/Speer/Hornady bullets, even on deer or elk.

I've had good success with getting X's too shoot. Maybe their new "Triple Shocker", ringed X's will be more consistent for more shooters. I just follow Barnes reccomendations, clean bore & .050" off.

I really like the idea of using the 338 myself. If I can get a good X bullet load for my dad to shoot, that would be great. Then I could tinker with other bullets. The 250 gr. Partition Gold looks to be a great bullet, and a 275 gr. A-Frame would be impressive on bear I'm sure!

I looked at MidwayUSA.com, and their top 5 most popular .338" bullets are:

#1) 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips (gasp)

#2) 250 gr. Sierra GameKing

#3) 200 gr. Hornady SP

#4) 200 gr. Speer Hot Cor

#5) 225 gr. Hornady SP

I'm sure these are most popular because they are the cheapest. The Ballistic Tips just make shooters all warm inside with those colored tips!

The top 5 "Big Game" bullets sold were:

#1) 185 gr. XLC BT

#2) 225 gr. XLC

#3) 250 gr. Nosler Partition (hurrah!)

#4) 225 gr. Nosler Partition

#5) 250 gr. Swift A-Frames

I ommited the 200 gr. Nosler BT, Hornady bullets, and Sierra 215 gr., 160 & 175 gr. X's. Oddly, the super-popular 210 gr. Partition was the 20th most popular bullet on MidWay's list!

Great round, I like 225 grain Hornadys

I also believe in the 1) bullet construction 2) Placement theory, only in the manner I believe you were thinking. If a bullet is built well enough, you can place it in less perfect parts to reach the vitals. For example. I shot one of my Black Bears in the rear with my 338 loaded with an A-frame and amongst the insides I messed up, I split the heart damn near in two pieces before it exited the chest. That was just over 3 feet. Had I been loaded with a 215gr Sierra, the shot would never have happened.

Tod. I just have to stick my nose into this discussion because I use and believe in the lighter bullets for the 338 Win Mag. I have shot the 180 grain Nosler BT's and 185 Lazzeroni/Barnes over 66.0 grain of Re15 at about 3000 fps with great success for years. It just happens that my rifles don't like either the 210 or 225 Partitions at all while they both are tackdrivers with these bullets. For your deer out just out of Pemberton towards the Hurley Pass and Meager Creek areas you just don't need the heavier bullets at all and the 180 flatten them just fine without the heavier recoil of the 225's or 250's. Secondly, if your rifle will shoot the lighter Barnes, then the weight of the Barnes bullets just after impact with the skin exceeds the weight of the 210 Partition at that point so I wouldn't worry about it. I have shot many moose and elk with various 338 caliber rifles and never noticed any difference in killing power between the Partitions from 210 to 250 so I stopped using heavier bullets than 225 grain because from my experience hunting in B.C. you just don't need them. And this includes grizzly! I am now just testing the Barnes 175 grain for deer and 2 loads seem to work well. 68.0 grains of Re15 and 66.0 grain of 748! Both shoot 3 shots under 2" at 200 meters. The 748 does even better. However, when I go moose and elk hunting up north I do switch to 225 Swift's but for deer only and spike moose hunting south of Williams Lake I have been using the lighter stuff. One of my all-around hunting 338 rifles is the same size and weight as a sporter 30-06 and for deer I don't get hung up on using heavy bullets. I use the 338 caliber in a variety of 338 rifles just to standardize the calibers to make it easier and cheaper to stock up on components because, as you know, these can get hard to come by lately. The 225 Hornady SST with 76.0 grains of Re22 does a good job at the range but I have to test them on wet phonebooks before I will use them for serious hunting of big moose and elk. They will be fine for deer though and have the advantage that the wind drift is a lot less when shooting across windy canyons. I am looking forward to testing the new bonded stuff from Nosler and Hornady since that may make the perfect all-around bullet for me. However, I don't expect to see them up here this year. Tell your Dad to try the lighter bullets and he won't be disappointed. Good luck, Steve

I've only had my 338 Win Mag since December but used it to take a decent 5x6 Elk at 110 yards using the 250 gr. Remington Corelockt. It exited and left a very good wound channel breaking one rib going in and one going out, the Elk only went about 10-15 feet after the shot. Certainly for any deer size game I don't see a need for a premium bullet. I'm also loading some Gamekings in 250 gr. to try out now. I do have some Barnes X bullets in 250 gr. I'm going to play with also but they'll probably be relegated to Africa if I can get there next year. The Sierras, Hornadys etc. seem to be stoutly enough constructed once you get to the 338 that I wouldn't hesitate to use them on anything except big bears or large African plains game.

As for recoil I didn't see any difference between 225 gr. loads and 250's when I was practicing. That led me to just settle on the 250's for the 338. I have enough smaller caliber rifles I decided to stick with the heavys since the rifle shot them well.

One of my younger brother's griz was shot with a 338 Win Mag. One shot, on the run. At the instant of being hit, it flipped/tumbled over on it's back to die in a small puddle. Thats all she wrote.
On this same hunt our brother-in-law and another hunting buddy (three hunters) all took grizzlies with 338's, only Archie's took one shot.
The next hunting season I bought one, but used my 270 Win on my griz because I had more confidence in it, with the 338 being unshot at that time. After moving to other magnum rifles I sold mine to my cousin. ~~~Suluuq

SteveB ,

You're just the type of guy I was wanting to hear from. Not that I don't respect the other members opinions on heavy bullets, it's just that I'm going to try this light-weight X route, regardless, for my dad.

I agree with you fully. For deer, you don't need a 200+ gr. bullet (you also don't NEED a 338), and this is the bullet type and rifle my dad wants to be using. For a 2 pt. bull moose, or an average sized black bear, I'd say a 185 gr. XBT or 200 gr. XFB would be plenty. Now, when I try the 338 with MY loads, I will go more towards like what you use for the big stuff, a 225 gr. or heavier Partition, A-Frame, etc.

RL15 seems to be a good choice for the lighter slugs. Varget would naturally work as well.

Cheers

Hi Todd. For the big stuff like big moose, elk, and grizzly I agree with the rest that you need section density and bullet weight up to a point. I have shot moose and elk for close to 30 years with a 338 Win Mag, 340 Weatherby, and 338-378 Weatherby and not much else. I started with 250 grain bullets then went to 210 Noslers. After discovering the very low real B.C. of the 210, I switched to 225 Partition because they overcame the 210 at 100 yards. Now, because my rifles do not like Partitions, I use 225 Swift's. I never saw much difference in the terminal effects in all of the rifles and bullets because virtually all exited the animals bodies. The bigger and faster cartridges do carry the bullet energy farther but as I became a better hunter the closer I shot game. For example, my last elk was shot at 25 yards with my 338-378 on the Sikanni River. However, all this power doesn't really apply to small game like deer or sheep. They are small animals with thin skins and almost any reasonably well contructed bullet from a 338 Win Mag will punch through. The last deer I shot with the 338-378 at about 200 yards cleaned off about 2 cubic feet of meat and bone from the deer's rump. So much for eating the bullet hole and that was a 225 Nosler Partition!!! For small game, I believe that bullet construction is the key over bullet weight. The Barnes X will retain its bullet weight in deer or sheep and the Nosler 180 BT's do extremely well in the testing I did in soaking wet phonebooks retaining 70%+ from 100 meters out. Although their velocity is higher than the heavier bullets at the muzzle and do lose it faster, the difference in ballistic performance between the lighter and heavier bullets is usually very small up to 400 yards which is my max range I test for. One bullet though that really interests me now for most of my general hunting is the Hornady 225 grain SST. If this bullet will stay together fairly well it could be a good one. I will be testing it shortly in wet phonebooks. The BC will be fairly high ( I have read that it is in the .550 range) and although the lighter bullets match this bullets trajectory curve identically to 400 yards this bullets high BC makes it ideal for cross canyon shots in windy conditions. The SST drifts a whole bunch less than the lighter bullets do even though the trajectories are the same. Again, I don't see much advantage using the heavier bullets for deer and sheep sized game in hunting areas where this is all the game you are going to run into unless, as I said, you are trying for ballistic advantage. Dead is dead and a heavier bullet won't kill them any better than a well constructed lighter bullet. Varget, BTW, performs very well using the same charges as Re15. I only started using Re15 over Varget because my 308 practice rifle didn't like Varget. Since I only use 338's for hunting all animals, I am considering building a very light weight short barreled 338 caliber for a dedicated deer rifle but using only the light bullets. Anyway, Good luck. Steve

Great stuff Steve

Some guys just stick to one bullet, but I like the way you try different things, see if there is something better. I'm like that too, I rarely use the same bullet 2 years in a row.

Cheers

I like the 225 grain bullets, If I shoot large game I use 225 Nosler Partition bullets and they seem to work fine

Just a thought for your dad/what about the 300ultra mag.It is faster/at the same grain/,and has a greater coefficient.It has long range and power enough to kill anything in north america.I expect to catch flack from all the 338 owners,but the balistics say the rum is more powerful than the 338win.

How do you figure a softer blow?If the same grain bullet/220and240/is a 100-200fps faster it is more powerful.Bullet placement being equal the balistics do matter.Also, Toad mentioned lighter faster bullets.I do not own a 338win mag.If I did I might feel like you do,because you like and trust the round you are used to.

hammerhodder: The .330RUM produces greater recoil than the .338WM. It all means that the .338WM is easier on the shoulder, a consideration taken into account by the original poster. You mentioned .300RUM ammo with 220 and 240-grain bullets, and of the factory ammo I found, the heaviest bullets were 200 grainers.

You could compare your .300 RUM to the .338RUM, but it is still comparing apples to oranges. But both shoot fast, pound the shoulder well, and hit hard down range. Even a comparison between the .338WM and the .338RUM is like comparing apples to oranges.

[ 03-16-2003, 03:44: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

dear Ray,I was looking at the accuratereloading page.That is where I m comparing balistics.Tod,I do understand the barrel burner complaint,but I may only shoot 20-30rounds a year.If you take velocity difference out of the equation-At the same speed-bullet construction being equal-wouldn t you want a 240gr over a 220gr bullet hitting home.Does .038 dia make that big of a difference. ................................................go wings!!!!!!

Well if you consider the difference in frontal area between the two (.308 vs .338), there is about a 10% difference (considering both expand equally). If you consider the velocity difference, it only about 6%. If you consider the energy difference, its only about 6.5%. Since its flesh damage that does the killing anyway, ill take the bigger hole since both are probably goning to punch all the way through anyway.

Sean, You make a good point.Thanks for sharing.

My Browning A-Bolt loves 225 grain Barnes X bullets and so do I! I've taken sitka blacktails, goat, caribou, moose, and brown bears with em and they have performed well. The 338 WM is really a great caliber.

I'll take the 338 Winnie over the 300 RUM any day of the week. For one, I like bigger bullets. The 338 is proven. The 300 RUM ain't. It's not worth that sharp recoil in my opinion.

I don't percieve the .338 as a "do-all" rifle for the spectrum of N.A. game. "course if its your only rifle, that's another story. I used 225 partitions for everything. If I was going elk hunting and stopping off for antelope, the antelope was shot with a 225 gr bullet. Worked good. With surprisingly little meat damage. One reason for the "one rifle, one bullet", is if I were to meet old grizz, I can guarentee you I'd be loaded up with and have a pocket full of 125gr plinkers. Overall, I am pretty much a heavy for calibre sort of guy. And, if you are clocking over 3000fps, get a bigger bullet.

I guess i'll add my 2 cents worth. Shoot what you want to shoot, i shoot 180 nbt's over 75grs.of imr4350 at 3150 fps out of my ruger m77. It kills deer just a dead as a heavy bullet does, x bullets tend to be very picky, sometimes the shoot good, sometimes they don't. The 338 is needlessly powerful for deer, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good choice. Just go with what shoots the best, anything out of a 338 will kill if you put in the right spot!