Almost all of my hunting has been at around 2800fps and higher. A person can think in a rut. (OK, in the 80's I used to use 250gn .338" at 2700fps with happy results.)

Recently, I've been considering loads and rifles for those in the extended family with shorter LOP and much less body weight.

Especially in Africa, I wonder about the advantages of loading a 338WinMag down to about 2600fps with a 210 grain mono-metal. The trajectories aren't bad and a person can still sight-in at 2" high at 100 yards and only have a -9" with decent BC's.

Even dropping down to 2400 fps (e.g. 375 Ruger with 250 TTSX) one can have a -13" drop at 300 yards (9" windage/10mph) with a .42 BC. That can lower a 375 cal down to just above 30-06 levels, with a slower shove and probably less 'bang' noise, though probably only instruments would notice.

There are probably quite a few on this list with a lot of hunting experience with such a trajectory and who have almost never felt limited by velocity. I would like to hear more about such hunting, especially plains game, deer, and elk.

Not a veiled comment. Just wondering why you specified monometals for that velocity range? Seems like you could use about anything at that MV.

Sam

I have killed lots of game with bullets in that range 300 sav 165gr no trouble killing deer out to 200 plus yards. Dozens of hogs with a 30-06 220 at 2400 a few bears.

A rifle well have less recoil muzzle blast at those vel rather then faster.

I found critters die well at those velocities when the bullet is placed well as with any shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:
Not a veiled comment. Just wondering why you specified monometals for that velocity range? Seems like you could use about anything at that MV.

Sam

You are correct, any style bullet would work at those speeds. My background has been mono-metal the past few years. Whether traditional or mono-metal, I would expect that people would prefer to keep impact velocities over 2000fps.

If your going down to the old time killing range of velocity, the bullets designed for that speed are not only usable, but probably best. For example, I have used the 338 and the 275 Semi spritzer speer bullet with great effect. From a 26" barrel it was going just over 2500 or so. No better killer could be imagined even at long range. However, if recoil is the issue, then go down to the good old 30-06 and the 220 Hornady RN. Drop is not an issue in the game fields, shooting is, really, not unkindness intended. That bullet ran at 2400 - 2500 also works wonderfully. The 220 Solid of same make does too.
Loading down an expanding Mono metal to me is not a good thing to do. They are designed to work at the speed most people use them, full throttle.
Good luck and happy Hunting!

At those velocities, I'd use a cup and core bullet, or a Partition if you're after heavier game.

Unless you're doing it to minimize recoil why not shoot the standard 300 grain bullets at 2500 fps in the 375 H&H? Or the standard 250 grain 338 bullets at 2500 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Unless you're doing it to minimize recoil why not shoot the standard 300 grain bullets at 2500 fps in the 375 H&H? Or the standard 250 grain 338 bullets at 2500 fps?

Yes, the motivation on my part is to find some softer, huntable loads for newer hunters and guests.

However, I'm also interested in stories about using such trajectories in the field. Maybe examples where someone looks at a 250-300 yard shot and passes, takes the shot, or tries to get closer and loses the opportunity or wishes that the round ws flatter. My own sense is that probably only 2-5% of the time have I ever needed to consider a 300-400 yard shot, depending on terrain. With range finders available these days, I suspect that a could have given up 200fps and done pretty much the same.

If you were to add a rangefinder ,a scope such as a Leupold with the C. D. S. turret. You could get your recoil reduction and still make that rare 250yd. Plus shot.

Sir,
5 x5 Big Bull Elk, 425 yards with .338 and 275 speer at around 2500. Broke both front shoulders and all the spine in between. Cow Elk 365 yards same gun and load, in the flank, out the throat as she trotted away across the canyon. Very dead.
Several Deer here in Kansas with the 220 Hornady at 2500 in the '06 at ranges from 30 yards to about 250. I see no practical field shooting problem at ranges up to 350 with a load like this zeroed at 175 -200 yards. None. I have had no problem killing deer and Elk sized game at Point Blank to the above mentioned long range elk either. I also shoot a PCH reticle which matches my Iron sight picture and neither one are a problem either as I grew up shooting Iron Rifle and pistol.
The slower bullets really do help with felt recoil in my opinion. Most folks who don't know what they are shooting as a load would agree in a blind test I think. The slower push just feels like less recoil.
Good Hunting!

The only difference a few hundred fps makes is a slightly flatter trajectory. How many times do you really need to make a shot at over 300 yards? Your bullet will only drop an extra 2-3 inches and as you say with a range finder, knowing the exact distance, bullet drop makes much less difference.
When your bullet reaches your target the velocity is considerably less than MV so the 300 ultrawhizbang is going to have the same velocity at 350 yards that the standard round has at 250. So how many shots do you really have to pass on?
I have been loading my hunting rounds to 2750fps and they work fine. Much less meat damage and no lost game. Granted I'm shooting impala sized deer and generally limiting shots to 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Sir,
5 x5 Big Bull Elk, 425 yards with .338 and 275 speer at around 2500. Broke both front shoulders and all the spine in between. Cow Elk 365 yards same gun and load, in the flank, out the throat as she trotted away across the canyon. Very dead.
Several Deer here in Kansas with the 220 Hornady at 2500 in the '06 at ranges from 30 yards to about 250. I see no practical field shooting problem at ranges up to 350 with a load like this zeroed at 175 -200 yards. None. I have had no problem killing deer and Elk sized game at Point Blank to the above mentioned long range elk either. I also shoot a PCH reticle which matches my Iron sight picture and neither one are a problem either as I grew up shooting Iron Rifle and pistol.
The slower bullets really do help with felt recoil in my opinion. Most folks who don't know what they are shooting as a load would agree in a blind test I think. The slower push just feels like less recoil.
Good Hunting!

I remember that old Speer bullet. In the early 80's we got a 338 and loaded up some 275's. Maybe the first animal was a hartebeest facing at 3/4 facing, 285 full paces (yards). The animal took a few steps forward, looked sick and tipped over. My son was very impressed. But our bread and butter bullet became the 250 NP for a couple hundred more fps.

30-30 factory loads have killed a lot of game !! roger

Seems like you have re-discovered the ideal velocity window. It's been around for a long time and is what the C&C bullets were designed for. The mono's and the bonded bullets are a result of folks trying for warp speed which would over tax the C&C's.
IMO, if your hunting load exceeds 3000fps, you need more bullet, not more speed. As far as the flatter trajectory, if you don't know the trajectory of the rifle and load you're hunting with, you shouldn't be shooting beyond 300yds.

As far as killing power you won't be able to tell much difference, but if I was slowing a bullet down then I would not use monolithics as they need velocity...Use Rem Corelokts, Win Power points, Nosler partitions work well..

Your suggestion and reasoning is why I love the 9.3x62, its a wonderful killer of any game up to elephants and it does it without all the boom and stomp on the shooters body..

I love my .338 but I push the 210 Nosler to its limit, but I also shoot the 300 gr. Woodleighs at 2400 FPS and that my friend is one hell of a killer..

With your intended method you have one hurdle to overcome and that is trajectory, but do your testing before you hunt, know that trajectory and you will be amazed..It will be only a couple of inches but inches are inches and you must know them to be effective at extended ranges.

Tanz:

Because I shoot my little .338 RCM and like heavier bullets, I have had to deal with exactly this question. I just stick with cup and core bullets. In my 35 Whelen, I just used to shoot plain old 250 grain Speers, They were deadly on elk. In my .338, I just shoot plain old Hornady 225 grain sprire points. At modest velocity, you don't need super bullets.

sounds to me like we arrive full circle back to the nosler partition, great old gal that she is.

New and younger hunters should not be shooting big game at 300 yards. With the range cut back to say 150 yards lower velocities with are entirely adequate as long as you stay away from varmint rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Tanz:

Because I shoot my little .338 RCM and like heavier bullets, I have had to deal with exactly this question. I just stick with cup and core bullets. In my 35 Whelen, I just used to shoot plain old 250 grain Speers, They were deadly on elk. In my .338, I just shoot plain old Hornady 225 grain sprire points. At modest velocity, you don't need super bullets.

I do the same with my 338 Federal only instead of 225, it's 200 at 2600 fps...Hot Cores & Ballistic Silvertips. That gun loves Hot Cores more than anything else.

What would be wrong with a Barnes 210 over a moderate load of H4350? I get 2900 out of mine but it's a max load. I imagine 3-4 grains less would be downright comfy. I don't think the recoil is bad with my load. Its the heavy bullets that break my shoulder.

The OP wants reduced-recoil loads for new shooters. Dropping a 210 down to 2700 fps will still be far too much recoil for many. Going machismo won't help with the OP's question.

SP handgun hunters have been taking thousands of head of game with MVs between 2200 and 2500 fps for decades. Neither the bullets nor the game knows if the lower velocity came from a reduced rifle load or a short barreled handgun. I load my .338 WM to 2400 fps using BlueDot and Hornady 200s, and it kills deer and hogs very very well with recoil like a .308 WCF. Try it, you'll like it.



.

It all depends on the choice of bullets and the range. Some manufacturers will provide details as to the operational velocity range for their products and you need to look at that to make the right choice.

There is no reason why lower velocity won't work. Buy I awalys want enough velocity for expansion and decent penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
It all depends on the choice of bullets and the range. Some manufacturers will provide details as to the operational velocity range for their products and you need to look at that to make the right choice.

There is no reason why lower velocity won't work. Buy I awalys want enough velocity for expansion and decent penetration.

Thanks. Yes, lower velocity is an important consideration.

Let's see if a table will paste into this thread:
250 TTSX in .375"
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2400.0 2.107 3196.9 0.000 0.0 ***
50 1.1 2.1 0.2 0.5 2314.8 2.033 2973.9 0.064 11.2 21.4
100 2.1 2.0 1.0 0.9 2231.2 1.959 2763.0 0.130 22.8 21.8
150 1.3 0.8 2.2 1.4 2149.3 1.887 2564.0 0.198 34.9 22.2
179 -0.0 -0.0 3.2 1.7 2102.6 1.846 2453.8 0.239 42.1 22.4
200 -1.4 -0.6 4.0 1.9 2069.2 1.817 2376.4 0.269 47.4 22.6
210 -2.1 -1.0 4.4 2.0 2053.4 1.803 2340.2 0.284 50.0 22.7
250 -6.0 -2.3 6.3 2.4 1990.9 1.748 2199.9 0.343 60.4 23.1
300 -12.9 -4.1 9.2 2.9 1914.4 1.681 2034.2 0.420 73.9 23.5

Will a bullet open up at 1914fps?
The new TTSX's will. The tip aids in expansion.
In fact, some of the traditional cup-n-core bullets in medium calibre are susceptible to not opening up because they are designed as 'hard' for magnum velocities.

In any case, the above load is pretty gentle, about 30-06 levels.
So will it hunt?
I appreciate the suggestion that newer hunters shouldn't be considering anything at 300 yards. By the time that they should think about 300+ yards they can run the velocities up the ladder, too.

Which brings up another question. What kind of point-of-impact changes have been noticed between 2400fps and 2700-2800fps? Has anyone found a particular pair of nodes in this general velocity range where two muzzle velocities come back together in their POI?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
New and younger hunters should not be shooting big game at 300 yards. With the range cut back to say 150 yards lower velocities with are entirely adequate as long as you stay away from varmint rifles.

Depending on the shooter and rifle I talked my niece through a 305 yard shot on her first deer when she was 12.

Very accurate 06 off bipod one shot right through the boiler room.

My son and daughter where both accomplished longer range shooters form a early age hundreds to thousands of Pdogs saw to that.

the 2400 fps number was, for years, considered the beau ideal for velocity. the last moose I shot was with an 06 loaded to about the same with 220s and they plowed into that big ole boy and did some very rude things to his general respiratory system along the way. what's not to love?

I'll wager if most of us were honest we've all shot most of our collective game at under 200 yards or less. assuming proper bullet placement I cannot imagine how 2400-2600 fps cannot result in piles of dead game brought to bag! I'll admit the deer I have shot with hotter loaded cartridges have resulted in lots of bloodshot meat while last year's buck, shot with a CnC bullet at a sedate 2600-ish from the H&H yielded two bullet holes, punctured and collapsed lungs, and one very dead deer.

on the other side of the coin, I shot a hog this spring in Texas with a 35 Whelen and a 225 TSX at somewhere about 80 yards. The pig was slightly quartering to and facing a touch uphill. The bullet entered just ahead of the left foreleg and absolutely devastated everything in the front portion of the chest cavity and exited squarely through the right foreleg. the hog never made a sound although it flopped about for a minute or so while it bled out. no wasted bloodshot meat. the exact velocity was unknown as the owner said he only loaded for accuracy but the barrel was 26" long and I have to imagine it was out there at something around 26-2700 fps.

I would thus imagine a 250 TTSX from the H&H at the 24-2600 fps window would be an excellent performer at normal hunting ranges.

quote:

the exact velocity was unknown as the owner said he only loaded for accuracy but the barrel was 26" long and I have to imagine it was out there at something around 26-2700 fps.

I gave up guessing velocities a long time ago seems I was never right according to the chronograph.

My wife's 300 Savage 2450 fps

my 425 Express 2350 fps

my 358 Norma Mag 2550 fps

These have been our mainstay's for years!!

You would be surprised at how well a .318 Westley Richards loaded with 250-grain Woodleigh softs doing only 2 200 fps kills big things.

In fact, you have a hard time recovering any bullets. ZERO meat damage.

Just thinking--
wouldn't ZERO meat damage mean that there is less lung damage when plowing through the lungs?

Tanz:

Ray makes a great point. Bullets that are heavy for caliber are stunning killers, even at very modest velocity. The just penetrate like crazy. Of course, the Partition would be great. However, so would a Hot-Cor or a Hornady Spire Point. If there was a costly trophy on the line or maybe something dangerous, the plain old Woodleigh PP is great and if muzzle velocity is really low, say under 2300 fps like in my 9,3X74R, a Woodleigh RN would be just the ticket.

Scott shoots 200 grainers for deer and such and that is perfect. But I don't use my .338 for deer. I have other guns for that. The .338 is the greatest elk, moose, or African plans game gun. The one point that Scott makes very well. That 200 grain Hot-Cor is perfect for deer and you can stick with that weight for bigger game by switching to a 200 grain North Fork soft nose, I may even give that a try in my gun. Scott, here is a quote from the NF web site about their 200 grain bullet:

"When designing this bullet, I envisioned a good tough bullet for the 338-06 that would still allow good velocities for a better trajectory. It would be good for the hunter with the 338-06 or the 338 Win. Mag that made the occasional trip out west for elk but whose normal quarry was in a class with deer, hogs, caribou, etc. Most people choose the heavier weights in the 338 so few reports have come back on the 338-200. All of them have reported complete pass-through on elk, so maybe; again, I might be being a little conservative. Not discounting the reports, if asked my opinion, I would still recommend the 338-225 for the hunter whose primary quarry was elk sized animals."

Good hunting!

Out to reasonable ranges[250yd?]...a lighter monometal going faster [than a slower heavier cupcore] will:
-flatten trajectory
-reduce time of flight
-reduce drift
-reduce recoil[due to less inertia]
-deliver no less penetration.

and will properly expand even at longer ranges & lower impact velocities [2000fps?]
..as long you choose the correct brand of mono-metal.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Just thinking--
wouldn't ZERO meat damage mean that there is less lung damage when plowing through the lungs?

Well, all I can say is that nothing I've ever shot with my .318 went much further than a step or two when shot, and in most instances not even that.

There may be almost zero bloodshot/bruised tissue but that bullet opens up to more than an inch in diameter and simply ploughs through everything. The combination is deadly and it sure transfers a lot of punch into the animal.

Biggest I've shot with it has been nyala and blue wildebeest and all of them were pretty much down and out after the shot. Nyala are soft but wildebeest most certainly not!

well you could take it one step further.
I use a 358 win at 2300 fps with a 250 gr bullet and took the copper part right out of the equation.
I just use the naked core metal part.
p-dog shooter does much the same thing, except he replaces the copper with paper.
either way you don't have to worry about expansion down to 14-1500 fps or blow-up's from over velocity impacts either.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Tanz:


Scott shoots 200 grainers for deer and such and that is perfect. But I don't use my .338 for deer. I have other guns for that. The .338 is the greatest elk, moose, or African plans game gun. The one point that Scott makes very well. That 200 grain Hot-Cor is perfect for deer and you can stick with that weight for bigger game by switching to a 200 grain North Fork soft nose, I may even gives that a try in my gun. Scott, here is a quote from the NF web site about their 200 grain bullet:

"When designing this bullet, I envisioned a good tough bullet for the 338-06 that would still allow good velocities for a better trajectory. It would be good for the hunter with the 338-06 or the 338 Win. Mag that made the occasional trip out west for elk but whose normal quarry was in a class with deer, hogs, caribou, etc. Most people choose the heavier weights in the 338 so few reports have come back on the 338-200. All of them have reported complete pass-through on elk, so maybe; again, I might be being a little conservative. Not discounting the reports, if asked my opinion, I would still recommend the 338-225 for the hunter whose primary quarry was elk sized animals."

Good hunting!

What's interesting is most 338 bullets were designed for the 338 Win Mag velocities, even the 200s. You slow them down to 2600 and they act like premiums on bigger game. It's interesting how the plain 200 grain hot cor & ballistic tip behaved in one study. Since you have a 338, you might find it interesting, you may have already seen it.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...ods.html#338_caliber

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Tanz:


Scott shoots 200 grainers for deer and such and that is perfect. But I don't use my .338 for deer. I have other guns for that. The .338 is the greatest elk, moose, or African plans game gun. The one point that Scott makes very well. That 200 grain Hot-Cor is perfect for deer and you can stick with that weight for bigger game by switching to a 200 grain North Fork soft nose, I may even gives that a try in my gun. Scott, here is a quote from the NF web site about their 200 grain bullet:

"When designing this bullet, I envisioned a good tough bullet for the 338-06 that would still allow good velocities for a better trajectory. It would be good for the hunter with the 338-06 or the 338 Win. Mag that made the occasional trip out west for elk but whose normal quarry was in a class with deer, hogs, caribou, etc. Most people choose the heavier weights in the 338 so few reports have come back on the 338-200. All of them have reported complete pass-through on elk, so maybe; again, I might be being a little conservative. Not discounting the reports, if asked my opinion, I would still recommend the 338-225 for the hunter whose primary quarry was elk sized animals."

Good hunting!

What's interesting is most 338 bullets were designed for the 338 Win Mag velocities, even the 200s. You slow them down to 2600 and they act like premiums on bigger game. It's interesting how the plain 200 grain hot cor & ballistic tip behaved in one study. Since you have a 338, you might find it interesting, you may have already seen it.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...ods.html#338_caliber

Thanks.

Yes, that Rathcoombe study ranks right up there with Michael's work on Terminals. It would be nice if he followed through on some updates.

More than 2100 fps. with the .358x41 and a 297gr gas checked bullet. That's about 30-06 energy level from a cartridge about 30-30 powder capacity. Not too shabby! roger

trax,

i think some of your points are in error; time of flight? really? i think we're talking milliseconds here so I dont' see a real difference.

drift? a ballistics calculator can help here. less recoil? doub it; a 300 grain 375 at 2400 in a 9 lb rifle assuming say, 72 grains of propellant comes up for me with 37 ft lbs at 16 fps recoil while a 250 at 2800 using 74 grains shows 40 ft at 17 fps.

more penetration? at what range? while a mono seems to penetrate like hell what of momentum which a heavier bullet has over a lighter one?

Thanks Scott....

Over the past couple years I've been mulling the idea of slowing down my .300s. In NY I was having longer shots. But here in ME, the 180 PSPCLs @ 2950 are not penetrating so well on closer shots. Last two failed to exit big whitetails when placed low neck and broadside....no shoulders.

So I've been thinking about targeting 2800 fps with the CLs. Yeah, I know. Get a .30-06. Well, I own the .300s.

The other thought is to load 220 gr NPs (which I just happen to have) to 2600 and have one load for literally anything from deer to moose.

My questions: will the 220 NPs open up enough on whitetails shot through the ribcage? Ie., are they like lighter .308 NPs (front half always opens)? Or should I stick with slower 180 CLs?

Thanks,

Sam

Sam:

Have you recovered any bullets? If so, what do they look like? My guess is that your Core-Lokt bullets just can't stand up to that muzzle velocity and are blowing apart or pancaking. Try a 180 grain TSX.