I'm curious if the 358 Norma recoils about the same, more, or less than a 338 win mag? I'd like to eventually get either a 35 whelen or a 358 Norma mag

I've never shot the Norma, but I have shot the Whelen and it is a mild recoiler, especially compared to the win mag.

Recoil with the Norma is comparable to that of a 338 with the possible exception of a fully loaded 280 gr. Swift bullet. That load will set your molars back but it's not a man-killer. Manageable with practice.
sbsmith

I have a little mannlicher 358Norma with a 19" barrel no scope. Shooting factory factory 250s compared to a 300mag I find the recoil not as sharp. If you can handle a 300wmag with a 200 or 220 you can handle the 358Norma with a 250.

If recoil is an issue the Whelen gives up 150-200fps to the 358N. Since they are normally shorter distance round your target will never know the difference.

Never shot the norma, but I do want to build one.
I have a whelen, and a .338. The Whelen recoil is really not a problem for me, at all.
The .338 is only a problem after about 20 or so full house loads.
A couple things to consider. If you build a whelen on say a model 70 or a mauser, and you decide you want more power its not hard to convert the whelen to the norma.
Also you can in most any cartridge, practice with a load a couple grains below max and when you find the bullet and powder combo you want to use, get sighted in to about where you want and then work up, you should only need a few rounds at full power to get her sighted in.
I also want to say the the notion that the whelen is a short round cartridge is not at all correct.
I would not hesitate to take a 300 yard shot at an elk with mine.
The 250 grain bullet I shoot at 2600 has a BC of .446 sighted in at 200 yards you are 2.3 hight at 100 and only 9.4 low at 300.
On a target as big as an elk kill zone little or no hold over would be needed at 300 yards.
go to the norma and add 200 FPS you are at 1.8 high at 100 and -7.9 at 300.
To me that is about all the power and range needed for about 95% percent of hunting on the north american continent.
On smaller game like deer with a smaller kill zone, I would want a different round all together if i was going past 200 yards.
The 35s will work fine if you know the trajectory real well, but few of us really do enough shooting to lob a bullet into an 8 inch circle at 300 yards.
That elk is about twice as big a kill zone, so you don't really have to lob your bullet. just aim for the top of the boiler room and it shoud still be in the kill zone, 300 yards away.
just my nickels worth ...tj3006

It is pure physics. it will recoil some where between the 338 and the 375 H&H.

Felt recoil will depend on the stock configuration.

See, my problem is I get a rifle, shoot about 300 rounds through it in about 3 range sessions, and want to try something new. I'm thinking this is because I haven't gotten to kill anything with my rifles yet. If the range I went to let me shoot something besides paper, then I could have a little more fun with my rifles. I was stationed in Germany for a few 3 years and It's next to impossible to own a firearm when your living there as an American, and reloading is illegal there. I got back to the US about a year ago and all I've been able to shoot is paper. I've went from a 270 win to a 30-06 to another 30-06 to a 45-70 to a 300 win mag. I can't sell my win mag though because this rifle fits me and is the most comfortable to shoot out of any of the rifles I previously owned.
I'm keeping my buffalo classic 45-70, selling my marlin 45-70 to get my girlfriend a deer rifle(was going to turn it into 50 alaskan), I'm keeping my 22, keeping my 300 win mag, and keeping my puma lever 480 ruger. I'd like to get another 270, a 35 whelen or the norma, and a 480 ruger or 475 linebaugh revolver.

gohip, how about booking a hunt. It does get old shooting paper. I use the range to practice for hunts. It is perhaps time to blood those rifles of yours. You can hunt wild hogs year round........just a suggestion.

I've shot both the same day switching back and forth and if it weren't for some slight ergonomic differences between the two rifles it would have been impossible to tell the difference between them from recoil or report.

I was doing load development for my brother's
rifles, his 358Norma is a J.W. VanPatten built
Springfield in a walnut stock, the 338Win was a custom Win M70 (the ergonomic difference)
in a McMillan Kevlar Stock

Both were loaded similarly and somewhat heavily(by me), so...

If there was any difference from the bench I couldn't detect it.

If I were to be presented with two identical rifles one in each caliber I'd buy the 338Mag
simply because of the cheaper 338Win brass and better selection of 338dia bullets.

The 358Norma is "exotic" and exotic in this case means "expensive".

AD

There is nothing "exotic" or particularly expensive about the 358 Norma. Get fresh 338 Win mag brass, one pass thru with a 35 cal. expander ball and presto! 358 Norma(almost) you then have to fireform to move the shoulder forward but it's not rocket science and Winchester 338 brass is tough. I've been loading the Norma for many years and have yet to have a split neck BUT in fairness, I usually pitch cases after 5 or 6 full house reloads. That's a lot of shooting, but the Norma is worth it.
Regards,
sbsmith

338Win makes far from perfect 358Norma brass.

What works far better is 300WinMag, but that involves a bit more work and a cream of wheat fireforming.

But in either case it's cheaper to buy 358Normal brass
off the shelf at Cabela's.

The thing is (and you COMPLETELY missed my point)
is that the 338Win is ALWAYS more available
and ALWAYS has a better selection of bullets.

As for actual Ammo? if you buy a box of actually norma 358Norma ammo be prepared to pay around $100 for a box of twenty, WHEn you can find it.

And Much as I'll spend hours doing some things I can think of better ways to spend my time than FORMING brass...

Yeah 20 years abo when 358Norma cases were made of unobtanium instead of brass it was worth it, but not now
even at just over $1 EACH for the cases.

I bought two bags from Cabela's (off the shelf) last year
and that with what we aready had is probably a lifetime supply for the rifle.

I've worked extensively with both and the difference isn't worth a cup of coffee, let alone paying double (or more) for the brass.

a 358Norma RIFLE is a custom chamber proposition and has never to my knowledge been anything else...
the 338Win? who doesn't chamber for it?
(please don't tell me because if someone doesn't chamber for the 338 I probably wouldn't buy a rifle from them anyway)

AD

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
gohip, how about booking a hunt. It does get old shooting paper. I use the range to practice for hunts. It is perhaps time to blood those rifles of yours. You can hunt wild hogs year round........just a suggestion.

yep I think I need to do what you reccomended. I got a deer tag last fall, but I didn't get any opertunities to shoot a deer. before that I was in Germany and before that I was really too young to hunt when no one else in my family hunts and was just buying my first firearms. This next deer season I am hoping to at least get a deer. My girlfriend's family has some farm land and I will bring my 300 win mag with 180 gr at about 2700-2900 fps for field shots and my 480 ruger for the stand in the heavier wooded area. Hopefully I will get to bloody one of them. I've always wanted to go hog hunting, but I need to wait until I'm more finatially stable because there aren't many hogs in Minnesota. There is black bear hunting here though, but I will have to check more into the regs about that to see where I can actually hunt black bear. Eventually I'd like to hunt plains game in africa, but that won't be for a long time. bear and hog or boars are what I'd really like to hunt right now.

Get thee a .375 H&H or 9.3 x 62. Recoil will be the same as a .338 win or 358 norma, but you will be dangerous game qualified. I have found the 375 H&H makes an excellent elk round, and with spitzers I am confident to 400 yards (although I have shot an elk at 600 yards with this round).

Many variable account for felt recoil, but it's analogous to .375 H&H with 250gr load. If you only hunt in North America spare your jowl and get .35 Whelen.

I have a Husqvarna .358 Norma Mag. Its been restocked in a Bell & Carlson "Medalist" stock...the one with an
aluminum bedding block.
Its one of my favorite rifles...will shoot MOA all day with 250 gr. bullets.
I think the recoil is reasonably pleasant, on the other hand...I don't like the .338's recoil. There are two
facets to recoil energy...one is the total foot pounds of energy, the other that's often not considered is the
"recoil velocity'..to me, the recoil velocity is the most important.
I have had a .338 & didn't like it at all..had an unpleasant, sharp recoil. Sold it.
Now, I can shoot my .358 Norma all day & it doesn't bother me...but I detest .338's from my experience.
I've found many big bores more pleasant to shoot than its smaller, near equivelant. For instance, my "take" on
the .338 vs the .358. I like the .358 Norma Mag & hate the .338 WinMag.
of course, stock weight & design make a big difference in felt recoil, maybe I had a bad .338. And a good .358.
But I also think a .358 Norma Mag a better choice than a .375 (if flatter trajectory wanted)...unless you need the
.375 bore requirement in African countries for minimum bore on dangerous game.
The .358 Norma Mag is just a tad less energy than a .375...but I think a better choice if you can use it where its
not restricted.
Tom

Gohip, in general, I would not pick any cartridge from "Obsolete" list in late ed. Cartridges of the World unless there was nothing else comparable.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroth:a 358Norma RIFLE is a custom chamber proposition and has never to my knowledge been anything else...
the 338Win? who doesn't chamber for it?
(please don't tell me because if someone doesn't chamber for the 338 I probably wouldn't buy a rifle from them anyway)

AD

The 358Norma has ben a factory production from both Husquarna in the 60th and 70th and Schultz&Larsen for almost 45 years, still in production today.

If used in rifles os same weight and shape fel recoil can apx be ranked as follows

30.06, 7mm rem mag

300winmag 35wheelan

338winmag 9,3x62

358Norma mag
375HH
416 Taylor

458WinMag
416Rigby

378Wea


460Wea

The ranking are my personal evaluation based on multiple tests of the all the calibers used in rifles of same brand, weight and stockshape and material

By the way i got my first scopecut ever yesterday from testing a 358NormaMagnum

quote:

what is the 358 Norma recoil comparable too?

We all seem to have slightly different opinions here,,,,,I think my 338 Win Mag recoils quite like mt .375 H&H.....and this means the .358 Norma should recoil about the same as these two!

I'm with 500 Grains here except I think we should ditch the .358 Norma and take up the .375 Ruger!

I have a 358 Norma more or less because it goes great with my 308 Norma. Or is it the other way around. If I wanted a rifle in that range I would have to look real close at the 375 Ruger.

I'm shooting a 35 Whelen improved, the Ackley version. 250 Partitions at 2720fps. The recoil is there but not bad. More than a 338 Mag but not as much as a 375. Standard Whelens are a pussy cat at 2400 to 2500. I would expect full bore 358 Normas to be pretty much like a 375.
A few others to consider are the 358STA and the 9.3x62.

well, I traded the 300 and got a 338 win and it is a dream to shoot. I like it a lot better than the 300. the recoil doesn't bother me, it's shooting 1"-2" groups at 200 yards and every load i try with it is accurate. This 338 is here to stay and when that barrel wares out, I might do a 358 norma or 375 ruger.

The Norma kicks about the same as a 375 but with a decent stock attached its way more user friendly. My present 358 has a MPI mannlicher on it and it seems to absorb much of the recoil. 225 NP & 280 Swifts are all you need to hunt anything Alaska.

......Waterrat what do you figure the #of animals taken with your 358 is .....???????Including finish offs

quote:

Posted 10 June 2007 19:35 Hide Post
I have a little mannlicher 358Norma with a 19" barrel no scope. Shooting factory factory 250s compared to a 300mag I find the recoil not as sharp. If you can handle a 300wmag with a 200 or 220 you can handle the 358Norma with a 250.

If recoil is an issue the Whelen gives up 150-200fps to the 358N. Since they are normally shorter distance round your target will never know the difference.

Ramrod, Do you know what your vel is with a 19" barrel? Somewhere I read an article by Sundra I think it was about a 20" 358 Norma. Vel. was amazing for that barrel length, very little loss as he shortened it down to the 20".

Gumboot I've got a Crown Royal bag with lots of expanded 250 Speers, 300 Barnes, and 280 Swifts. On the other hand I ran a couple of boxes of Barnes Xs through her and never recovered a single bullet. T'he barrel on mine was cut from 24" to 20" about 10yrs ago and velocity only dropped 65fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
338Win makes far from perfect 358Norma brass.

What works far better is 300WinMag, but that involves a bit more work and a cream of wheat fireforming.

But in either case it's cheaper to buy 358Normal brass off the shelf at Cabela's.

The thing is (and you COMPLETELY missed my point) is that the 338Win is ALWAYS more available and ALWAYS has a better selection of bullets. <snip>
AD

AD is correct: use .300 Win brass. Just gradually screw the sizer die down until your rounds JUST chamber (so you are headspacing on the shoulder, not the belt).

I would slightly disagree with AD regarding bullets in a very qualified way though. The .338 may have the edge in hunting bullets, but one reason I prefer my current .358 Norma over the .338 Win Mag I owned is that you can load the Norma with cheap revolver bullets for LOTS of cheap range practice. And, there are lots of good hunting bullets for the .358 Norma now (didn't used to be true).

I also have a .375 H & H, but I shoot the .358 Norm Mag much more because of the cheap pistol bullets. There are no really cheap practice bullets for the .338 or .375.

Clearly AD is correct about factory loads, however! The .358 Norma is for handloaders, but I think it is a handloader's dream because of the cheap pistol bullets.

How many other calibres are as versatile as the .358 Norma Mag? Anything from 125gr pistol bullets at 1100fps, to 310gr Woodleigh thumpers at 2500fps (the latter loads thump on both ends though!).

John

I believe some of you guys must think that bar fighting is a sport. I had a relatively light weight Norma put up (7 ¾ lbs with scope), and 20 or so shots off of a bench is about all that I want. CP.

CP, you've got to be smarter than the rifle...... 7.5 lbs sounds like something the CIA would call "aggressive". I know I'd cry "uncle" way before 20 shots.....

I'm restocking mine in nice, heavy black walnut, and aiming for 10.5 lbs including scope. Of course, being 6'5", and 240 lbs, I'd better be able to carry those few extra pounds...... FWIW, Dutch.

358 norma? it's light recoil, in fact, rather pleasant compared to any big bore.. a bout the same as a 9,3x64 ..
7.5# sounds perfect.. i think a 375HH is overweight at 8.5# .. and my 358win is 7# with scope, 225gr at 2500...

it will kick less than a single shot 3" 12ga, which is what my boys learned to shoot doves with...

trivial recoil
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
I'm restocking mine in nice, heavy black walnut, and aiming for 10.5 lbs including scope. Of course, being 6'5", and 240 lbs, I'd better be able to carry those few extra pounds...... FWIW, Dutch.

DUDE ... my 500 AR is 10.75, and that's 600gr at 2300fps.. 10.5 is grosstesly overweight...

my 416 at, with scope and all is right at 11#, it's a treat to shoot..

ya'll need to really get a monster bigbore and learn to shoot that... even if you shoot 5-10 rounds with it, you'll actually know what recoil is..

40# aint recoil, 75 gets you started, 100# kicks your butt..

anything less than 40# is a benchgun, NO REALLY, it is.. if you learn to shoot a big bore, these mediums will become FAR more fun

jeffe

..........Jeffeoso .. is right about recoil ......Get an 8 or 9 lb 458 and that will help you understand what easy kicking is ....The 375 Ruger Alaskan is about 7 1/2 lbs and its easy to shoot.......I think it is 458Win who says [ recoil is temporary but , gravity is forever ] Just don,t worry about the recoil , get a scope with 4 " of eye relief or more and have fun ......I,m shooting 158 gr cast 38 special bullets from my 358 win Savage 110 pushed by 8 gr Unique...What fun !!!..The 250 KBC @ 2300 fps should make a nice around the cabin rifle up north .....

Sounds to me like you guys have been kicked a few times too many already......

Asides, I LIKE my 10 lb rifles. I can shoot them after humping up a hill and being a bit short of breath. I can shoot them well kneeling and sitting; no problem shooting MOA at 300 yards from sitting.

Sounds to me you guys LIKE getting kicked, and it seems to be working for you. I'll just keep doing it the easy way. JMO, Dutch.

FYI -- Double Tap sells three different .358 Norma loads up to the 280 Swift A-Frame for right around $60.00 a box of 20.......all of the ammo that I have used from them has been first rate in my weapons.......

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
..
Sounds to me you guys LIKE getting kicked, and it seems to be working for you. I'll just keep doing it the easy way. JMO, Dutch.

guilty as charged.. click on any of the rounds or my website...

10# is about right for a 45, and a 358 norma has very little recoil, once you get trained to it..

jeffe

When I had my 9.3x338 made, it was after giving a lot of thought toward building a 358 Norma. The two cartridges are very close. I think I would be just as happy with the 358 Norma, but I really like my 9.3x338. The recoil is much more managable than I thought it would be, but a lot of the felt recoil differences depend on the stock. Therotically, it can all be computed by some formula, and of course the 358 & 9.3 should fall somewhere in between the 338 WM and the 375 H&H. I think my 9.3x338 kicks far less than my 375, but it could be my imigination. Anyway, it's sweet shooting, flat and powerful, and I would expect the same from a 358.

Either way, I think a reasonably light stock should be matched up to either cartridge, about the same weight stock as one would choose for a 30-06 or 308, because the recoil isn't bad enough to try to tame it with a heavy stock. Part of the fun of having a versitile rifle is the pleasure of carrying it, good balance, quick and certain.

Here's a picture of the 9.3x62 compared to the 9.3x338.



KB