Is it silly to have a 98 Mauser action barreled in 7.65x53? I have a couple of good military LR 98 actions, and don't have a specific plan yet for them. I also have a good, new #3 .311 barrel. Plus I have 600-700 .311 bullets left over from when I thought maybe the 7.62x39 was gonna keep my interest for a long time. I either need to sell the bullets and the barrel, and think of something else for the action, or go ahead and get it ready to shoot.

Waht do ya think? Is the cartridge interesting enough to do it?

KB

Count me as one who thinks this is a worthwhile project. I've thought about doing a Mauser-based full-stock carbine in 7.65 Argie for a while now. Too many things in front of it right now though.

It sounds like you have most everything ready to go, so may as well proceed.

It's tough on a guy having two really nice Mauser actions. I had several more but sold them. They were all good actions, but these two I still have just seemed like the best of the bunch to me. One is a VZ24, and the other has S/42 stamped on the front ring. Both have 1937 stamped on the receiver, and both are very clean, with no pitting, serial numbers are intact on the receiver, and nothing has been ground off.

It seems that the value of these actions is very subjective. I doubt that I could get the price that I think these actions are worth, unless I parted them out, and I can't bring myself to do that. I went through a lot of parts to assemble these actions.

Naturally the mil-surp action isn't really ready to use as a sporter in its original state. So, lots of changes need to be made, which costs money. By the time an action is ready to barrel, stock and shoot, it seems to me that it's unavoidable to have so much into it that it has exceeded resale value.

So, on these actions I assembled the parts necessary to make them into really nice sporters with minimal gunsmithing. I have Blackburn triggers, three-position Winchester style safeties and shrouds, hinged bottom metal with the straddel floorplate, new non-locking guard screws. Also I still have three complete commercial bolt assemblies - two MK X (non-speedlock) and one FN, that fits the receivers well, which avoids the need to cut off the old and weld on new bolt handles. The whole like-new commercial bolt assemblies were less expensive than having a custom bolt handle welded on the military bolts, and they seem to fit the receivers very well.

So, I doubt that these actions will sell for what I have into them, and I refuse to sell them for less. So, it's a quandry, and the practical solution is to have them built in rifles, and enjoy them.

Have you ever heard a better excuse for a new rifle?

KB

quote:

Is it silly to have a 98 Mauser action barreled in 7.65x53?

Is it any better than say 7.7mm Japanese? I certainly wouldn't have in barreled for 303 British although that was in fact an offered calibre on Mausers sold in UK (by Gibbs I think).

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Have you ever heard a better excuse for a new rifle?KB

Yes; I have! " That's what I want to do." Seems like you have everything but wood. After a certain age resale value means nothing. Give yourself a lot of hours of fun and do the7.65 sporter. A little beauty and a lot of function is the ticket. Have a ball roger

I had a Mauser built by the original John Rigby's in .303 British. There is an article and pictures of it in one of the 1973 issues of Rifle Magazine. It was in an oak and leather french-fitted, felt lined, motoring case, with a QD Zeiss scope in Rigby mounts, together with 3 cape-buffalo-handled turnscrews and a cape-buffalo-handled cleaning rod, a small elephant-ivory bottle containing spare foresights,etc. All of the accessories were french-fitted into the case as well.

It was a splendid rifle, fed absolutely flawlessly and still shot dead on to point of aim with Dominion brand 150 gr. ammo more than 50 years after it was built.

After I sold it, I saw it some years later for sale at Griffin & Howe's in New York. G&H wanted $4,650 for it in 1991, after some klutz had broken the handle off the case.

Totally the other way about I knew a guy in the Uk who had a Lee Speed in 8mm Mauser! And I think that was by Gibbs. Odd really but there it is.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Is it any better than say 7.7mm Japanese? I certainly wouldn't have in barreled for 303 British although that was in fact an offered calibre on Mausers sold in UK (by Gibbs I think).

I doubt that the 7.65x53 is "better" than the 7.7 Jap, but I couldn't do that to a Mauser in good conscience. It just ain't right.

I have nothing against the 303 Brit, but knowing the way I am about feeding, I couldn't do that to myself. It would be too frustrating to deal with a rimmed cartridge in a staggered magazine, and an action designed for a rimless cartridge.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Seems like you have everything but wood. roger

I have wood too, but I didn't mention it because it seems so many here on this forum only consider a stock as high grade walnut, with custom checkering and attachments - high dollar stuff. I've always appreciated good metal work, and a working stock, and the older I get, the more I appreciate that combo. I can't stand a poorly functioning rifle, especially if it's not accurate, but I also just feel some tension and stress when I'm carrying a rifle with pretty blueing, and fancy wood. I just want to baby it all the time, instead of just enjoying it. A nicely finished and good functioning rifle is hard to complain about. I may be the only one who would complain about fancy wood, but it's just the way I feel about it.

So, basically I like good functioning truck rifles, with practical metal work, but stocks that I don't have to baby. The stock I have set aside for this rifle is brown laminated monte carlo style, and already is checkered, and practically finished. It just need a little inletting and bedding.

It may seem odd to some, but I have gotten greater satisfaction from taking a well put together barreled action, and dropping it into a Hogue stock, and shooting little groups with it, than any rifle I ever owned with fancy wood, carefully bedded. Secondly, I have greater satisfaction from my rifles with McMillan stocks, carefully bedded, than any wood stock I've ever owned, fancy or not. That could change, since I have some laminate/checkered stocks set aside for future projects.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Seems like you have everything but wood. roger

So, basically I like good functioning truck rifles, with practical metal work, but stocks that I don't have to baby. KB

SO JUST DO IT ALREADY roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
SO JUST DO IT ALREADY roger

Alright already. I like talking about it too. That's part of the fun.

I went ahead and initiated the next phase, by email, after starting this discussion.

KB

I'd go with a 7.63 x 53 just because it is a caliber that not everyone else carries in the field...

I've thought of putting a barrel chambered in that caliber on a Ruger short action...

Do you think the cartridge will fit the magazine of a Ruger short action?

I haven't tried it, but I will, now that you mention it. If it fits, that will make a good combo.

Edited:
I tried it by using 308 brass with .311 bullets seated to the normal depth, and they barely fit with the Hornady 150gr SST bullets I have. The RN bullets left some room, but it will still be a squeeze with a cartridge at least 2mm longer than the 308.

I do not want to modify an action or magazine to get the cartridge to fit. I have a good Mauser action, which feeds great, so I really should use it.

KB

Kabluewy

The original M91 action for the Argentine cartridge was 3" I believe without having to go measure it. I'm not sure of the mag length for the Ruger but I wouldn't put it on any action with a mag shorter than 3". I think it is a very fine cartridge (I have 3 shooter M91s and a M1909) and would highly recommend it on a M98 action.

Larry Gibson

You say that one of the main reasons you are considering 7.65 is because you have so many bullets. So, assuming that this will primarily be a handloaded rifle anyway, why not build a magnum rifle that could use those bullets? One option would be the .312 Express with an OAL of 3". Another option would be to chamber it in a wildcat based on the 300WinMag. Either way, you could rebarrel to any of several magnum cartridges when your bullets and/or barrel are used up.

Thanks for the suggestion about the magnum, but I think I'll pass on that one, since I have an 8mm magnum to satisfy that itch. Another thing is that I want to build this on a Mauser action, and I'm probably never going to convert a Mauser action to a magnum cartridge. The reason is simply because the Mausers feed std cartridges just too well to mess with it, and I like other actions for magnums better.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's tough on a guy having two really nice Mauser actions. I had several more but sold them. They were all good actions, but these two I still have just seemed like the best of the bunch to me. One is a VZ24, and the other has S/42 stamped on the front ring. Both have 1937 stamped on the receiver, and both are very clean, with no pitting, serial numbers are intact on the receiver, and nothing has been ground off.

It seems that the value of these actions is very subjective. I doubt that I could get the price that I think these actions are worth, unless I parted them out, and I can't bring myself to do that. I went through a lot of parts to assemble these actions.

Naturally the mil-surp action isn't really ready to use as a sporter in its original state. So, lots of changes need to be made, which costs money. By the time an action is ready to barrel, stock and shoot, it seems to me that it's unavoidable to have so much into it that it has exceeded resale value.

So, on these actions I assembled the parts necessary to make them into really nice sporters with minimal gunsmithing. I have Blackburn triggers, three-position Winchester style safeties and shrouds, hinged bottom metal with the straddel floorplate, new non-locking guard screws. Also I still have three complete commercial bolt assemblies - two MK X (non-speedlock) and one FN, that fits the receivers well, which avoids the need to cut off the old and weld on new bolt handles. The whole like-new commercial bolt assemblies were less expensive than having a custom bolt handle welded on the military bolts, and they seem to fit the receivers very well.

So, I doubt that these actions will sell for what I have into them, and I refuse to sell them for less. So, it's a quandry, and the practical solution is to have them built in rifles, and enjoy them.

Have you ever heard a better excuse for a new rifle?

KB

You need to send me a PM. I'm picky about my action and may have an interest in one of yours.
Heres my latest project. Bases are coming from Austria.

Count me as one of those that things you need to keep your 7.65x53. You ask why; I ask why not? You've already got everything else so you may as well have one of these too.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Is it silly to have a 98 Mauser action barreled in 7.65x53? I have a couple of good military LR 98 actions, and don't have a specific plan yet for them. I also have a good, new #4 SS .311 barrel. Plus I have 600-700 .311 bullets left over from when I thought maybe the 7.62x39 was gonna keep my interest for a long time. I either need to sell the bullets and the barrel, and think of something else for the action, or go ahead and get it ready to shoot.

Waht do ya think? Is the cartridge interesting enough to do it?

KB

Only if you like it enough to keep it forever.

Go for it Im getting my parts ready to do it down here in anchorage so far I`ve acquired 2 persian barrelled actions, two persian stocks from numrich, 2 lothar walther barrels long chambered which will need to be chopped and maybe recountoured a bit, got my headspace guages etc. My favorite carry rifle has always been my little 1891 carbine I got back in 1972 from one of my dads friends when I was 14. aaron10

Personally I think the MaMa of the .308 was the .300 Savage and the Daddy the 7.65x53. With equally strong actions the 7.65 working at equal pressures can near duplicate the .308 performance and is adequate for any game in the lower 48 and a little more.
Short necks don't interest me much but this one is an ancient Grand-Daddy that's been around a long time.

bartsche,
Ok, going with your analogy, the 8x57/7x57 and the 303 Brit appear to be close relatives of the Jap 7.7x58. Seems as though the Jap military rifle had many features copied from the '98 Mauser too. Looks like they wanted something to shoot ballistically like the 303, .311 bullets and rimless, so they copied the x57 brass in 30 cal.

It doesn't suffer with the short neck either. Maybe a good idea, wrong country, and bad timing, lack of resources, etc. doomed the cartridge. Nevertheless, seems to me that if the 8x57 is a great cartridge, then the same thing in 30 cal has to be great too.

What's your opinion?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
bartsche,
Ok, going with your analogy, the 8x57/7x57 and the 303 Brit appear to be close relatives of the Jap 7.7x58. Nevertheless, seems to me that if the 8x57 is a great cartridge, then the same thing in 30 cal has to be great too.
What's your opinion?KB

If the determination of a great cartridge to you is a cartridge producing the same energy levels as one that is considered a great cartridge I have no arguement . The 7.7x58 can be safely loaded to near equal anything the 8x57 can do.
But really what kind of "want to" are you intending to fulfill?
From a performance view point both the 7.65 and 7.7 are a bit enemic for brown bear and way more than is needed for the deminutive coastal deer. Like your thought procees though. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
But really what kind of "want to" are you intending to fulfill?

From a performance view point both the 7.65 and 7.7 are a bit enemic for brown bear and way more than is needed for the deminutive coastal deer. Like your thought procees though. roger

It doesn't cost any more or cause any more trouble to go with this kind of unusual chambering than most anything else, since there is factory ammo, and brass, and I suppose SAAMI specs.

It's not a brown bear rifle, and you are correct about it being more than necessary for sitka deer, although it would do the job on either. If I go with it, I'll get some satisfaction out of load development, and just shooting it at the range and messing around. I'll take it South on a whitetail and hog hunt. It's mostly for something different to do.

Besides and after all, I like putting together projects, and thinking about all the details, and what I'm gonna do with it. I tend to justify it by rationalizing that I don't have any other seriously bad or expensive habits or hobbies, such as golf, wild women, fancy cars, or high grade walnut stocks, so I can indulge in another rifle project that's a shooter rather than a showpiece.

KB

The Argentine(Belgian) round is a fine round.

The Norma factory loads are "stiff" and kill well.

I have loaded not only the readily available 150's, 174's, etc,-- but also 215's from Hawk, with great results.

Spitzers
125 grains x .035 SPZ........$37.00 c3
180 grains x .035 SPZ........$39.00
215 grains x .035 SPZ........$40.50

Round Tips
180 grains x .030 RT..........$37.00 c3
215 grains x .030 RT..........$39.00 c3

http://hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Up until just recently, I had a very negative attitude toward the 7.7x58. Now I realize that it's about as close as it gets to a 7.62x57 or right in between the 7x57 and 8x57. I think the .311 groove is .300 bore.

Also, brass, ammo, dies, load data is readily available for both the 7.65x53 and 7.7x58. Cases can be made from 30-06 brass and other brass too. Form dies are readily available and inexpensive for either cartridge. Heck, I could probably shoot a barrel out just using range pick-up brass. I would suspect the 7.7x58 will achieve better ballistics than the 7.65x53, and feed in a Mauser action just as well as the 8x57.

So now, I'm thinking about it. Since I will be handloading for either, and other factors to consider are about on an even plane, I'm thinking why not to the 7.7x58.

Thanks for the suggestion about the magnum, but I think I'll pass on that one, since I have an 8mm magnum to satisfy that itch. Another thing is that I want to build this on a Mauser action, and I'm probably never going to convert a Mauser action to a magnum cartridge. The reason is simply because the Mausers feed std cartridges just too well to mess with it, and I like other actions for magnums better.

KB

If you are willing to spend time and money on this project why not chamber for 6,5x55 or 7x57 you might actually be able to sell it after you're done. Not so in 7,65x53.

Paolo,
I think it's ironic, funny, amusing, serves me right, etc. that your advice is the same I've given others in the past.

As I recall, I didn't receive a "thank you" from the recipient of that good advice. So, I'll be sure to not make that omission, and I thank you for your advice.

KB

the 53 and 58 are basically twins.
just because of their pressure ceilings.
in a good action such as you have you could basically duplicate the 08 and 0-6.
can't find a single fault with either one, and you'll be able to sell it in either caliber.
btw my youngest uses the x53 and my oldest uses the x58.
I use the x57 cases and my boy likes the 7.5x55.
the wife is a bit odd as she sold her x57 and bought an 0-6 [guess she needs all that power]
i'd bet you'll find a willing buyer or two, if you do it in either caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
the wife is a bit odd as she sold her x57 and bought an 0-6.

Yea, that is a bit odd.

Thanks for the encouragment, Lamar.

KB

These are what the bores (not the grooves or widest dimension) should be: 7.62=.300, 7.65=.301181, 7.7=.30314. Of course we know all of them are all the ways around those numbers, not so much the 7.62 with the American, but definitely with the Russians.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
Besides and after all, I like putting together projects, and thinking about all the details, and what I'm gonna do with it. I tend to justify it by rationalizing that I don't have any other seriously bad or expensive habits or hobbies, such as golf, wild women, fancy cars, or high grade walnut stocks, so I can indulge in another rifle project that's a shooter rather than a showpiece.KB

Why we're in the same camp. roger

While waiting for the barrel to be installed, I ordered some RCBS dies, which were very reasonably priced, and one box of Norma brass for the 7.65x53. I put together some dummy rounds to see how they look and feed in several Mauser actions. They feed very well.

I noticed several things already that I like. I don't think the short neck is a problem after all. The over all length is interesting, since it's right in there with other classic Mauser cartridges. The case has noticably more taper in the body from rear to front, compared to the 308, which I think is a good thing to facilitate feeding. I think I'm gonna enjoy this one.

Left to right - 7.65x53, 308, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57:

ENJOY roger

quote:

The case has noticably more taper in the body from rear to front, compared to the 308

Ding Ding Ding ...The winner

The 7.65, the 7X57 and the 6.5X55 have the same case taper - They are all true Mausers.
The 8X57 was not an original Mauser since it originated in the German 88 Commission rifle. It also has a different body taper but still much better than the .308.

I made some more discoveries today when I discussed the reamer with the people doing the chamber and barrel installation. They already had a reamer, which was one of the reasons I chose to let them do the work in the first place. But, it's been a long time since that reamer has been used, and it may have been acquired from an estate sale along with many other reamers years ago. I thought maybe I should ask specific questions, rather than assume anything.

When I called, I found out that they had already beat me to the question, and actually ordered a new reamer for my project. I was impressed, but still concerned.

So they suggested that I call the reamer maker and discuss it with him, from whom I learned a few things. The reamer they ordered is the CIP standard reamer, with the long tapered throat, and a bit oversized compared to the commercial brass. The short story is that the guy said that if I was interested in the best accuracy, that the CIP chamber and throat is not the best choice.

Naturally the gunsmith is not interested in a reamer that's not SAAMI or CIP, since technically it's a wildcat, although my intent is to shoot factory ammo, and handloads. So, I just substituted my order for the shop's order, which I'll have to pay for. Everyone is ok about that anyway. The specs aren't set yet, but I'll get to see a drawing before the tool is made anyway. First, I have ordered some factory ammo and gave the reamer maker's address as the shipping address, with their permission of course. I ordered one box each of Hornady (Cabelas), Prvi (Grafs), Norma (Midway).

So, generally the agreement is that they will measure the factory ammo, and make a reamer to cut a chamber that will work with factory ammo, with minimum body and neck and throat. I'm going to make a few dummy rounds with Norma brass, one batch FL sized, and another just neck sized, and marked accordingly, and send those to him as well.

The guy was very knowledgable, and easy to talk with, so I have little doubt about this turning out successfully.

I would rather spend the money on the reamer, and get it right, than do this project resulting in a sloppy chamber.

KB

Sounds like you are on the right track KB.
I look forward to seening some of your groups.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
So, generally the agreement is that they will measure the factory ammo, and make a reamer to cut a chamber that will work with factory ammo, with minimum body and neck and throat. KB

JMHO but the word MINIMUM herein turns me off. roger

I'm relatively sure it will shoot accurately, so I'm not much worried about that, now that we're on track with the proper reamer.

I'm excited about how it's going to look. Here's some pictures of the stock I have for it:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
JMHO but the word MINIMUM herein turns me off. roger

What is it about the word MINIMUM that has you concerned?

KB

you might want to have the smith also cut you're die set with the reamer also.
a minimum chamber and not so minimum die set might not be compatible.