Anyone ever use it with the 220-grain Speer Hot Cor for hunting big game?

I know its a great bullet in the .358 Winchester, but was wondering how it holds up traveling 250 fps faster. Can't be any worse than the Sierra Game King on game, can it?

I used them a few years ago. Took a couple whitetail does at close range. I had them loaded down at starting load levels which are about like a 356/358. They punched the whole way through and left a lot of blood on the snow with the one that ran about fifty feet. The other one just fell down. I took a number of deer with them in my 356. Well hit, they just flipped over with pass throughs. I shot one buck(about 175 pounds) at an angle and only punched the back of one lung. Poorly hit deer can go awhile even when hit with this 35 caliber bullet. The finishing shot went in through the left ham and out the ribs on the right. Couldn't have asked for more from the bullet.
Bfly

The reason I ask is they shoot right good out of my Whelen at 2650 fps -- maybe even better than the Sierras! I was just wondering how they would hold up at this velocity.

I know they are great at 2400 fps.

Curious what you have shot with the sierra game king that created your negative impression ?
...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by tjroberts:
Curious what you have shot with the sierra game king that created your negative impression ?
...tj3006

I had the exact same thought...

Y'all got me!

I have never shot any game with Game Kings in my Whelen. The only game I shot with my Whelen were whitetails with Nosler Partitions and Ballistic tips. I switched from Partitions to BTs because the BTs halved my group sizes, and they seemed to be pretty stoutly made (usually exited). Then, however, Nosler saw fit to drop the .358 Ballistic Tip from their product line (BTW, the 225-grain, .358 BT is the only BT I have ever praised).

When Ballistic Tips went belly up, I started looking for a replacement, and Sierras seemed like a natural. However when I was young and dumb, I used to shoot Federal Premium 165-grain Sierras from a rather inaccurate 30-'06 A-Bolt, because they were the only bullet that would hit a pie plate at a hundred yards with that rifle! I had countless deer kills with the combo, and kills were electric -- unless they weren't! I can't recall any exit wounds, and if the deer did manage to run, it was only by a stroke of luck (and no blood trail) if I found him. Usually, through persistence (and amazing skill ) I managed to find most of my victims, but one or two escaped.

When I started accumulating more rifles, started reloading, and became better educated on terminal ballistics, I learned to appreciate bullets that held together and penetrated through. Leaning on my experience with the old '06, I put the Sierra Game King in the "very accurate but way too soft" category in my mind, and have never had reason to change that opinion.

Am I wrong?

I would say , no you are not wrong,
If you are talking from true experience, with the 165 grain 30 cal sierra.
From an 06 you might be getting pretty fast, 2900 maybe?
If you talk Whelen 225 grain, You are not likely to get much over 2700.
If that bullet did not hold up to pass through a deer at that type of speed, i would be shocked.
Back to your 30,06 did you buy lots of them , or just a box ? because i am a little surprised it worked so poorly...tj3006

I don't know how many boxes of the Federal Premiums I bought over the years I used that gun. Like I said, it was the only load (that I found) that performed anywhere close to accurate in that POS A-Bolt with the stock made out of melted Clorox bottles.

Back then, I only went to the range once before deer season to check zero, and any other shots taken that year were at deer. Killed a pile of them, too -- one or two at fairly long range (for Georgia). A single box of ammo might have lasted two or three seasons. Luckily, back then I didn't know that a rifle had to shoot under 1/2-inch groups and the bullet be made of tungsten carbide and kryptonite in order to kill a deer. But once I became a reloader, I learned these things, started buying custom rifles, and retired the A-Bolt. I don't even know how many sub MOA rifles I own now! I still own the A-Bolt, too, if anybody is interested.

As and anecdote, my best friend, and the best hunter I ever have known, switched to the 165-grain, '06 Game Kings (from 180-grain Core Lokts) one season when he obtained a piece of property with large green fields in order to extend his range. He shot a few deer with them, and then gave the rest to me. He Said he had never seen a bullet that would not exit, no matter the angle, and that it was only a matter of time before he lost a deer -- and Murphy being Murphy, it would probably be a big one!

I've not had experiences anywhere close to that with Sierra's. Killed dozens of Elk, dozens of Mule Deer, antelope, hogs, a Bighorn Sheep a Mountain goat all with 180 grain Sierra's in a 30/06. Never recovered a bullet all exits. Took a .338 to Africa last year with 225 grain Sierras and shot 7 animals all bullets exited except one a Blue Wildebeast that I shot at about 320 meters bullet traversed more than 30" of animal and found it under the skin weighing 200.6 grains.
Also my sons, ex wife and myself have killed a pile of deer with Sierras in .257 and .243 with very good results, never an issue.
That's just my experience so I don't consider them soft by any stretch and I think they are very accurate.

Its been many years ago and bullet construction could possibly been changed but I used the 250 gr. Speer in my 358 Savage 99 on deer in the mid 1970s on deer and found it very soft and tended to come apart, I would imagine it would be a virtual bomb in a 35 Whelen, on the other hand I have read where folks had excellent results on Brown Bear with this bullet in the 358 Norma.

Bottom line with me is I have not been informed of any changes in bullet construction on that Speer 358 250 gr,HC bullet nor read of any changes, therefore I can only conclude its impossible for a bullet that's useful in a 358 Win to work at 358 Norma or Whelen velocities, as construction must be different, and that works both ways a harder bullet for a 358 Norma or a Whelen should not expand properly in a 358 Win. Perhaps the 358 Win and 35 Whelen with factory ammo would work as the difference is less, but handloaded the difference would be much more IMO.

My take is to test the bullets before you use them. I use wet newpaper as a medium, and dry books to try and destroy a bullet, but all your doing is comparing one bullet to another, not what bullets will do on a live animal, but it seems to work pretty well if you keep that in mind.

I have had excellent results with HC Speers in my 250 Savage, 30-30 and 30-06 and the 130 gr. Speer is my favorite 7x57 deer bullet.

The problem with bullets is all Speers are not good or bad, same with any other bullet make. You must find a bullet that works for you in your caliber..

I have had excellent luck with Sierra 150 and 180 gr.bullets on deer and antelope and ocassional failure of sorts on elk and moose with the 180s that hit a big bone. By the same token the 300 gr. 375 Sierra has always been an awesome bullet on anything big that I have shot, and all bullets I recovered were pretty much picture book mushrooms, so its a crap shoot for each us to figure out by use.

I am certain a lot of confusion on bullet performance comes from less than reliable reports for a varity of reasons, misinterpretation probably being the major problem in for example its easy to assume a bullet didn't expand properly because the exit hole is caliber size, and that is not always the case.

Recently I shot a big feral hog (around 400 pounds) that was angling a bit to my right with the 220gr. Speer FP pushed to 2650fps. Range was 80 yards. I meant to angle the shot from just in front of his right hind leg through the front of his chest. The bullet hit just where I aimed but I did not get the penetration I wanted. As I lost the hog I can't prove the bullet overexpanded but I found corn and dense green packed grass on the ground a short ways after the hit and I tracked blood til he was off my lease. He never missed a beat, as far as I could tell he never laid down in the half mile I followed him. At the hit he froze for just a second and took off just as I got another round in the chamber. A big beautiful brown hog. I had in the past shot another smaller hog with the same bullet and it also did not exit. Personally I would use the bullet for deer pushed no faster than 2400 fps. It is after all designed to go no more than 2200 fps out of a 35 Remington.

For deer hogs elk moose PG and even a buffalo if it was all I had at the time calls for the Nosler 225 gr. bullet between 2600 and 2700 FPS..

I have never had a Nosler fail, even under the harshest of conditions. The thing I like about Noslers is they expand on contact and always get me an exit hole..sometimes and rarely these days the front lead will be lost but the mushroom is still there, but mostly I get perfect mushrooms, either way they kill and I get a blood trail. The older Noslers tended to blow the front portion completely off, but again that front exploding half did some real damage and that small exit hole go enough blood to make a trail. Today bullets like the Nosler, Swift, North Fork, Woodleigh, GS Customs and a few others fail very seldom, not so some 30 or 40 years ago. In fact Sierras, Speer, Rem Corelokt never fail me on deer size animals and don't remember them failing on elk or PG in the last 20 years..

One bullet that has always performed perfect for me and they are cheap and have 100 in a box, the Hornady. I have shot a lot of game with the Hornady Interlocks in the 7x57 and 30-06 and, cheap and they don't cost an arm and a leg..

there are just a hell of a lot of good bullets out there. Most bullet failure today is man caused. Unrecovered game usually clears up the subject when found some days later by the buzzards in my experience, and yes its happened to me also..I would have sworn it was a good hit!

This incident was indeed caused by myself. I had two different bullets loaded up and I usually hunt with 225 gr, RN Woodleigh's but the guys at the hunting lease thought they wanted to shoot my Whelen and I loaded it with the Speer bullet as it is a much cheaper bullet for them to plink with. Turns out they only shot one of the 5 I loaded the rifle with. The next morning, much later than I though I would have seen a hog I went around to make sure the doors on all the stands were secure and saw the hog, not thinking about the bullet switch I took the shot. Even worse the hog was slowly pushing a hog toy and I could have waited for a broadside shot. I have never recovered one of the Woodleigh bullets yet and have yet to get an exit with the Speer bullet. So yes It was my fault.

I shot a doe, 90 lbs., with the Sierra 225 35 cal. out of a 350 RM at a chronographed 2700+ fps. She was broadside at about 20 yards. At the shot she hit the ground, then staggered up and made it about 25 feet before collapsing. The bullet did not exit. The bullet went in right behind the shoulder, just as planned. However it then angled back into the stomach and intestines. I looked like a bomb had gone off. During an extensive autopsy I found only bullet fragments. I know people use them on large game with success, but I won't use them in anything faster than 358 velocities.
I have shot a lot of the 220 Speers for practice, but haven't gotten the courage to try them at top velocity on game. I don't see the point since there are several more suitable bullets available. I am working with Hornady 200 gr. now. So far I don't have a load that will give adequate accuracy.

Lightest bullet used in my Whelen was 225 grain. 225 X's killed like the hammer of thor. 225 Nosler BT, shot one lost that one. He bled two deer full of blood in the first 1/4 mile then went two more miles before I lost him. Neighbor found his horns / skeleton on the creek. Don't have any idea what happened. Shot a few with 250 Hornady both spire and RN. Like the RN the best. Now use on 290 Grain Cast.
When I think Whelen I think big bullet. Just works.
Best regards,

I have used the Speer Hot Core 250 grain in my Whelen since the 1970'S. That's what was available then, and I worked up my original loads with them. Since then I have changed to 225 Ballistic Tips, when they were available, and Accubonds/Partitions. 225'S, are traveling around 2750 fps + -, and 250"S, 2650 to 2700fps.

On elk, I have shot no deer with this cartridge, heck I believe the 270 Winchester is more than is needed for deer.

Elk Number 1, Speer Hot Core 250 grain, shot entered behind the left shoulder, missed all bones and blew up in the heart. No exit. Recovered bullet weighed 56 grains. No bitch here, as the elk was dead within 10 yards. Range was 130 yards. But the shot was perfectly placed. A bone in the way, who knows?

Elk Number 2. 225 grain Ballistic Tip, range 225 yards. Elk moving away from me up a hill. Shot entered in front of the left hind quarter missed bone, and went all the way to the brisket just under the hide. Recovered weight 206 grains. Ran about 50 yards.

This is just 2, but my take on the Hot Core, is to slow them down and try to place the shot between the ribs. As others have said though, there are many options now, that a 35 Cal shooter has, and as Ray said, and my favorite also, are The Partitions. One of our Whelen's shoots them at .5".

Regards


Jerry

I have decided to relegate my 220-grain Hot-Cors to my .358 Win. Everything I read claims this bullet performs great at 2400 fps and under.

In my Whelen, I'll stick to 250-grain Hot-Cors at a modest 2500 fps (not as modest as Alliant wants me to shoot them, however). If elk or moose enter the picture, I'll re-evaluate whether or not "premium" bullets are needed, but at these velocities, probably not.

I would put it at 2200fps and under.

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
I switched from Partitions to BTs because the BTs halved my group sizes, and they seemed to be pretty stoutly made (usually exited). Then, however, Nosler saw fit to drop the .358 Ballistic Tip from their product line (BTW, the 225-grain, .358 BT is the only BT I have ever praised).

Have you noticed that Nosler is currently offering a 225 gr Accubond in .358? If you were happy with the BT, you might give the Accubond a try.

I have used the 220.. worked just as well as the 225 on game, not as accurate on paper .. the 225 is spectacular on hogs ... 10 meters of red rain from a stem to stern (in THAT order) on 150lbs ish hog ... always an exit wound..

but, we when go to 250gr .358 cup and core -- those are DEAD SOFT and sometimes had total fragmentation inside a hog or deer .. no exit, no meaningful +50% fragments

i built a 358 winnie just for barnes X .358 bullets.. 10 twist an all .. and that rifle, as well as the other 4 358s i've had our built, all shot 225 GKs VERY well ..

After reading all of this, I must ask the nay sayers concerning the Speer, and Sierra, why you make no mention of the Swift A Frame, or the Barnes TSX? Both of these bullets, along with the Nosler Partition seem to be in the "no brainer" category if bullet failure is your concern. Surely you can find one of these premium bullets that will shoot!
No worries, just hunt with confidence, and have fun.
I agree, that the Sierra's, and the Hornady's are very good bullets, and have worked fine for me, and several friends.

If you can find them, the 200 core-lokts are of the old design with a thick tapered jacket and large mechanical lock.

quote:

or the Barnes TSX?

I had not been paying a lot of attention to this discussion specifically because the Barnes bullets had not been mentioned.

Over the 15 or so years I have had my .35 Whelen, I have been using the old 225 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base bullets with great success. I still have a few left but have been switching over to the TSX's and they seem to work just as good as the old Flat Base "X" bullets.

My Whelen is a Tang Safety Model 77 Ruger that I had the factory barrel replaced with a 26 inch Shaw barrel, which was one of the best moves I ever made.

CH,

I have some 200 TTSX for my 350 Rem Mag. Shoots really well and the hollow point cavity is massive. When I finally go South for Nilgai, it's probably the combo I'll take.

I was raised on Sierra Game Kings...

Never even heard of bullet failure untile the www

Through more than 40 years my Dad, Brother and myself have ended the lives of hundreds of animals with the Sierra family of bullets

From Moose all the way down to Prarie Dogs and everything in between.

But I will admit to change....I now shoot Nosler Accubonds but cant say anything is any more dead because of the change

I will kill 3 deer this fall with a 9.3x62 shooting factory PPU 287grn round nosed soft points with no worries whatsoever in the PPU'S C&C bullets ability to plow

quote:

Have you noticed that Nosler is currently offering a 225 gr Accubond in .358? If you were happy with the BT, you might give the Accubond a try.

I agree.....except one can't find them anywhere.....It's what I'd be shooting if I could find them.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
If you can find them, the 200 core-lokts are of the old design with a thick tapered jacket and large mechanical lock.

+1 on the core-lokts. My go to factory bullet most of my life!

plus 1 on corelokts for deer in my 35 Whelen, but about any bullet kills deer with ease..Elk? I'll go with a premium bullet most of the time. I like Nosler partitions for anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
plus 1 on corelokts for deer in my 35 Whelen, but about any bullet kills deer with ease..Elk? I'll go with a premium bullet most of the time. I like Nosler partitions for anything.

Agreed!
Has anyone loaded any core-Lokt ultra's? Sound like they may be a good option, and legit entry into the premium bullet market.