quote:

JWP475: it's Hosea Farber, and he disappeared while out hunting one fall with his 270 he was so proud of. Probably one of those illiterate Alaskan bears that didn't read Jack O'Connor's scribblings.

"Alaska Bear Tales" their are at least 2 volumes and the books are a list along with the stroy of Bear Attacks in Alaska and teir are many accounts of People useing rather large rifles and not getting the job done, so let's include those as well and not just the small calibers the shooter didn't get the job done with.
I personaly have flattened them with a 475 Linebaugh and it will shoot completely through one and leave a larger wound channel than my 338 Win Mag. Shot placement in paramount along with good bullets and this is normaly left out when relating stories of failures..

Phil Shoemaker adamently claims that a properly loaded 30-06 is PERFECTLY adequate for big bears and he hunts them for a living..
I have 338's. 416 Rigby and 458 Lott and all of these will certainly kil bears, but are not required...

he says that, but ask him what HE carries...

We know that one can kill elephants with a 7mm Mauser, just don't run up behind one and kick him/her in the genitals and plan on taking the elephant down with one unless you are Bell.

Jack O'Connor killed as many as fifty brown and grizzly bears, mostly with a 270 and 150gr bullets. He used to bust a shoulder from 50 to 100 yards off and then shoot them a couple more times to actually kill them. If Jack had ever wandered into one at 15-20 feet he might have made a 24 hour transmogrification into bear scat.

I think you have to preface the small bore argument as a best case scenario. The idea isn't how minimal a caliber can I use under perfect conditions but how much rifle should one take to prepare for the worst case scenario.

As an example, one of my brother-in-laws fly fishes in the high country, backpacking in. He had a bear stand up out of the brush about 10 feet away and start popping his teeth a little.
He had his six-year old boy with him. He said his 38 snubby (chosen for its light weight) looked pretty lame. I got him a 329 and now he packs that with my hard cast bullets at 1200fps.

Which are you packing if you go?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

he says that, but ask him what HE carries...

Which are you packing if you go?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Phil was asked that very question on 24 hour campfire and he stated that if his new rifle was finished in time then he was going to use it as back upo this coming season and yes it is chambered in 30-06

here is the link

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...t/all/gonew/1#UNREAD

Here is what Phil said,


458Win
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I had a Brown Bear hunter call yesterday and booked a hunt with me. He asked what rifle to bring and I answered as I always do with the question of what rifle he already owns and how much he shoots it. He said his largest rifle was a 300 Win and he had used it on elk and moose and really likes it. I told him that with today's bullets it was all he needed and to just buy a few extra boxes of ammo and to practice shooting with it before he comes up and he would have no problem killing any bear with it.
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Phil Shoemaker

" The problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell

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#2039867 - 02/23/08 07:26 PM Re: 300 RUM for Brown Bear hunt [Re: 458Win]
MarcTaylor MarcTaylor
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What will his guide be backing him up with?

Taylor

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#2040080 - 02/23/08 09:17 PM Re: 300 RUM for Brown Bear hunt [Re: MarcTaylor]
458Win 458Win
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If my new rifle is done I will be backing him up with a 30-06 and 220 Nosler Partitions.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker

" The problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell



As to what side arm will I carry in Brown Bear country, well my minimum is a 45 colt with 325 grain hard cast flat points at 1300 to 1400 FPS. My first choice is either one of the following that I own 475 Linebaugh, 500 JRH, 500 Linebaugh any one of those 3 are absolutely higher oon the food chain than any smaller bore handgun.

Idaho
Sharpshooter

Would you please give your ref to Jack killing 50 or so grizzys and browns.

I've read a lot of O Conner and I belive he killed two browns and maybe a half dozen grizzys.

He used a 375 on the browns. And states he killed more bears with a 30-06 then any thing else. And when he used his 270 it was iwth is standard sheep load and a 130 gr bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Randy Kurtz:
What would be your choice in a brown bear gun? Make, model, caliber,and scope?

Im looking at a hunt in 2009.
Thank you for help..

I have seen some brownies that I would personally not want to take on with anything less than a .416 Rigby with 350-grain Barnes TSX bullets-even though I do realize that they can be killed quite dead with lesser rounds!!

(I know of at least one person who used to kill very large Polar bears with a .270 Winchester using 150-grain Nosler partition bullets!! A woman, BTW!!)

quote:

quote:
JWP475: it's Hosea Farber, and he disappeared while out hunting one fall with his 270 he was so proud of. Probably one of those illiterate Alaskan bears that didn't read Jack O'Connor's scribblings.

No, it was Hosea SARBER! A lot of people attribute his disappearance to the use on an inadequate cartridge on big bear. But since he actually disappeared, and no-one has the foggiest notion WHY, this is mere speculation! There are just one hell of a lot of things that can do you in, in The Great Land of Alaska!! BTDT!!

ONE of the very biggest known brown bear kills was made by a fellow in the early 1900's named Harold McCracken. He used a Win. Model 95 levr action in .30/40 Krag with 220-grain bullets.....

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Bob
Small point on your chart... A 338-06 and a Whelen with the same weight bullet and velocity will not be running the same pressures...

As someone that has seen hundreds upon hundreds of wild brown/grizzly bears, shot two Kodiak bears of my own, been there when quite a few more were shot and been bluff-charged numerous times I am happier to see 30-06 in someone's hands than a 338 they are afraid of. I have seen more folks afraid of their 338 than any other cartridge.
YMMV
art
_________________________



Posted here;

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php.../170706/#Post2120906

ALASKA TOP TEN CARTRIDGES
Cartridge # of Hunters %
.30-06 387 20.9
.300 Win. Mag. 342 18.5
.338 Win. Mag. 339 18.4
7mm Rem. Mag. 157 8.5
.375 H&H Mag. 116 6.3
.270 Win. 108 5.8
.308 Win. 65 3.5
.300 Weath. Mag. 64 3.5
45-70 Gov. 25 1.4
.280 Rem. 20 1.1

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingbu...n.hntbul8#cartridges

These threads are amusing, sometimes they can be educational I may also add.

I dont have a bit of a problem using a mid bore for brownies, and I dont care what your carrying, if you get charged its gonna seem pretty damn small.

I have a buddy (who just moved to idaho) who is pushing 69 now. he has never had and he refuses to own anything over 30cal. He has killed alot of bears with his 30-06 but he has never actively hunted bears. plus he hikes/hunts with an empty chamber. He use to back me up at camp when I hit a bear with his .222. he does admit that the .222 going after a hit bear is making him feel older though . luckily the bear was always dead.

Carry what you want. its your ass on the line. I have my bigbores, but I will always love my 30-06. hopefully my 9.3x62 will be a good shooter.

I would use any of the 416 s So long as it could push it the a 400 gr bullet over 2400 FPS

Like you Joel/AK I find these thread can also be interisting. Kind of like sitting around the camp fire on a hunting trip. Some good info and lots of BS.

Some people who get mad and they get up and go to bed others just keep on talking and having a good time.

Personally I have decide to carry my 416 Taylor if I go after Browns I really liked the job it did on my 490 lb black. Yes I could have use any one of my lesser rifles and killed it.

A freind of mine who is older then me and runs hounds and have killed lots of bears and have been in on hundreds of kills now carries a model 7 rem in 308 because it is short and handy.

The best fire arm for bears and selfdefense and hunting is the one you have in your hands at the time you need it. The rest sitting at home in the gun safe doesn't do any body any good.

Owning a half a dozen 06's it a great round but I have many others that work to. When I use what ever I know their limits and use each accordenly.

I've never shot a bear of any sort but I've got to agree with Sharpshooter and subscribe to RR's tenent: "use enough gun". So what if some native killed a juvenile polar bear with a pray and spray burst of .223 slugs from an AR-15. The pop gun crowd would have you believe they are cool, cold-blooded, unflappable marksmen with their mantra: "it ain't what you use, it's where you stick 'em" but trying to remember that when 1000# of brown bear is two jumps from putting your head in his mouth might be another story.
The '06 is a fine cartridge but there are better ones now available for this job. Why not use them.

Seems like we're talking about two different things here. I would imagine you could use a lot of different rifles to shoot a bear at distance or out of a tree where a leisurely rest and shot could be made. Especially if, after the shot, you could turn to your guide and say, "well, I've got him run up in the brush, you go make sure he's dead." And an entirely different thing if you're the one going in the brush after the bear or your encounter with the bear would be up close and personal. Then, I would imagine, your choice of weapons would narrow considerably.

I see threads on this subject on ALOT of webs and every time I do,the picture of that 9yr old hunter(girl to boot!)who killed that large brown bear with a .375H+H pops into my mind. I don't think she was born knowing how to shoot that thing. Evidently her dad subscribes to the"use enough gun"concept and told his daughter that this is what you've gotta do if you want to hunt a bear. Although I've never been to Alaska let alone hunted the big bear,it just seems to me that if I was going to,that learning to shoot"enough gun"would be part of the experience. In my mind what is"enough gun"? BIG!! Plus,after seeing what that young hunter did,I myself would be embarressed to do less!

til later

I have a grand total of one brown bear under my belt so I am far from an expert. That said, if I were preparing for a brown bear hunt and needed a suitable rifle, IMHO I would buy a Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger and scope it with a top quality illuminated reticle scope. I might select a Nightforce simply because they interest me right now otherwise a Swarovski.

Man this has been a big help! Glad to see all the different views on this. I will be going bigger than 250gr bullet it will be 280gr Aframe out of my STA. Thanks agen randy..

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
Weatherby Mark 5 in 338/378 fitted with Leupold 4.5x14x50. 250gr Nosler Partitions.

Ditto... I might choose the 250 grain TSX or the 250 grain Partition.... The scope would be the one mounted on it at the moment, a VXIII 3.5-10x40...

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
The macho big bore fanatics will disagree, but fact is anything from about .30-06 and up will work fine on the biggest Bear with correct shot placement.

The above is absolutely true, but it goes even lower that the 30-06! A 22 hornet will kill
the biggest Brown bear that ever walked the tundra, with proper placement! That fact, however in no way makes the 22 hornet a Brown bear rifle! So I guess what I'm saying is, when everything is perfect, any thing that will penetrate deep enough to get to a vital organ,when placed properly, will "KILL" a brownie

quote:

The bigger, the harder they hit, and may stop a bear faster IF you are able to place your shots accurately from your two hind feet under stress.

"IF" is a big word when it comes to stoping a determined charge! Hunting a brownie is not a stressful thing, normally, and under hunting conditions, a shot taken at a bear who is un-aware of you usually gives one time to get on him for a well placed shot. Here is where the everything is "good enough" is true, however, the "UNDER STRESS" factor only comes into play when you have made a mistake, and you need to get into the Alders with him, already pissed off! In this case, you will be close, and instinctive shooting comes into play. This is where the little bullets get a little risky, and the stress get unbearable to the point you better be on your best INSTINCTIVE shooting, and in this situation, the bigger the bullet, the better! I sure as hell don't want to be in close quarters with a 1000 lb wounded brownie with a damn 30-06!

quote:

Most that find an .06 too small do so because they can not shoot it well enough, so they figure bigger must work better. Then they use a larger caliber shot placement really goes to hell.

This doesn't make sense to me, because if one can't shoot a little 30-06 well, why would he think he could shoot a 458 Win Mag better?

quote:

That said, my rifle of choice would be my Sako L61R .300 WM, it's 1.5-5 Leupold scope, and 180 grain Barnes TSX bullets. If you can't keep 2 magazines of ammo on a 8" paper plate at a given distance while firing them as quickly as possible, then the calibers too big for you. A 500 grain .458 at 2,400 FPS, in a big Bears @$$ will piss it off! While a little bullet through it's heart, will kill it grave yard dead.

I agree with everthing you've said if everything goes smooth, and I don't know if you have ever seen a big Brown bear up close, with out a fence between you and him, but if you have, then add his being wounded, and pissed off, and close,wanting a little PAY BACK, and see if in that case you wouldn't want something a little bigger than ANY 30 cal rifle! I've been that close, and if you want to know how light an FN Mauser actioned 375 H&H can feel, just get that close in the alders face to face with him, and you'll know! Where I hunt in Alaska, there are a lot of big brownies and they are cheeky fellows, and I hunt egverything there with a 375 H&H, in a CRF rifle. And YES I can shoot it, close or far!

I have no dog in this fight. When I used to hunt a LOT in bear country in northern Alberta, I carried either a 7x57 or .30-06 most of the time. But I also hoped I didn't meet a wounded grizz up close or one "protecting" cubs. If I was hunting mainly FOR bears, intead of moose, I carried a .358 Norma Mag with 275 gr. slugs.

But what I actually wanted to say here is that when I used to read Hosea Sarber's articles in the American Rifleman, it was not a .270 Win. that he said he primarily carried and used on bear. He talked about using the .30-06 with 220 gr. bullets in his articles that I used to read. To tell the truth, that's why I carried an '06 (pre-war Model 70) loaded with 200 gr. Noslers. Figured if it was cartridge enough protect him, it would likely protect me too.

He used to walk them up along the rivers quite a bit. Lots of willows there. But prowling along far northern rivers you're as apt to be drowned or get fatal hypothermia as anything else. And to be absolutely sure of a bear (and my safety) if I inadvertantly stepped into one on a kill, I must tell you, I think I'd probably prefer something like a semi-auto 40 m/m grenade launcher

I use the 338 WM handloaded with 225 grain Barnes X bullets. Good all-around load for Alaskan hunting...including the big bears.

quote:

Originally posted by sep:
I use the 338 WM handloaded with 225 grain Barnes X bullets. Good all-around load for Alaskan hunting...including the big bears.

That's an excellent combo... I am a big 338 fan....

Another post on the 30-06 by Phil Shoemaker and its ability on Big Bears


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php...t/all/gonew/1#UNREAD


458Win
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I am loading up box of 30-06 with 220 Partitions and another with 220 Woodleighs and plan on using one or the other during this spring's bear season in my 30-06 as my back-up piece.
In the past, in test media the 220 partitions from my 30-06 penetrate virtually identical to 300 gr partitons from the 375 H&H.

I have killed as many bears with my 30-06 and 200 partitons as I have with the various 375's and while the 375's sometimes (? !) seem to put them down a little faster - the difference is not much, nor as evident, as most people suspect.

I am not suggesting that the 30-06 is an equal to my 458 as a backup rifle - because it certainly is not - but when used by someone who can shoot it the 30-06 with today's best bullets is a perfectly suitable rifle for use on big bears.



_________________________
Phil Shoemaker

quote:

Originally posted by Randy Kurtz:
Thank you all for the help! Looks like to me most here like a 250gr bullet. I have a Rem700 in 358STA with a 2.5-8x36 Leupold sitting in a Mcmillan stocks. But I was thinken about a Sako in 375H&H.

Fellers.......geez!! The guy's already got an STA. That's durn sufficient brownie medicine if there ever was such a thing.

Hard to believe this post has gotten as long winded as it has.

quote:

Hard to believe this post has gotten as long winded as it has.

There's NOTHING like mentioning what it takes to stop a big mean bear, to get a lively discussion going-even more intriguing than who's gonna be the next President...........

I think it great the post was long! A lot of people with some great input.. Nice to hear what other people think...