That pretty much was what I was trying to figure out.
I just didn't know that you could get those kind of increases in velocity, (around 200 fps) and energy, (maybe around 400 fpe) while not increasing recoil by just using a larger diameter bullet.
Very interesting.

Oh, I expect recoil will be increased, assuming the ammo can achieve its advertised velocities...

A big factor in deciding to do this might have been the European market. SAKO may have teamed up to offer something new and useful for boar and moose. Kind of an update on the various 9.(insert yours here) x 57. Steyr tried it with the 376 but that one was a little too powerful for the average hunter and not enough for the big bore guys.

It's really useful in those countries that don't allow military calibers like the .308. It will probably sell more new rifles there than in the US.

Tigger, I was thinking the exact thing recently how it seems a lot of boar hunting etc in Europe would take a liking to this cartridge.

9.3, I read about this cartridge many times in the past and although for reloading, one might need to select 1-3 'niche' powders, I have no doubt the claimed specs are achievable and realistic.

It should not be long into this year I would suppose that test reports confirm or not what factory velocities run. Federal hopefully realizes that if it falls short of published data, it might seriously affect their launch success into the market.

None the less, I DO believe it will make the #'s

AND yes it will have some recoil, but speed of recoil will likely be less than say 7mag, how it feels depends on gun weight and recoil pad/stock. Lightweight guns will not help.

Short/compact rifles say 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 will be much more comfortable than a 5.5 to 6.5 lb flyweight.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
9.3, I read about this cartridge many times in the past and although for reloading, one might need to select 1-3 'niche' powders, I have no doubt the claimed specs are achievable and realistic.

Well, I have doubts. Most factory ammo doesn't live up to advertised velocities. Moreover, Federal may well pack it will its HE formulated powders, which is something us loaders do not have access to.

2630 with a 210 is faster than a 52,000 CUP 358 win with a 200 gr bullet...

I like it!! I don't know if I can explain why, but this concept appeals to me.

Maybe the 338 caliber will help it along. The US seems to love the 338 caliber.

I see this as the same 308 vs 30-06 vs 300 WM or
7mm-08 vs 280 vs 7 Rem mag. All of these are great cartridges, pick your fancy and go hunting. All have their own strengths and weakness in hunting situations.

I have always felt that a bigger hole is always better. I absolutely love my 338-06 it has worked PERIOD!! A welcome addition to 338 family.

A nice compact, quick handling rifle with an efficient cartridge that puts a big hole in critters without undue muzzle blast or recoil. Good out to 300 yards. What more can you ask?

Again, I am referring to data already done by Ken Waters and Wayne Van Zwolle in Rifle and Handloader magazine.

I do recall also that barrel lengths were 24" in a couple of test guns, but regardless, the real world velocities of max safe handloads with optimum powder and/or factory ammo should come darned close I believe to what Fed claims and any difference or short fall will likely be very little and mean nothing in the field.

We shall see.

180 grain Nosler AccuBond at 2830 fps.
185 grain Barnes Triple-Shock at 2750 fps.
210 grain Nosler Partition at 2630 fps


Falls right in line with what Paco gets in his 358 180gr-2850fps.....although he may be using 23-24" barrel-not sure....

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm

Again, I believe a 22" would be within 30-50 fps of advertised specs.

The difference likely can be made up loading your own which many shooters here will do who use one.

Not sure but Fed brass held less powder than RP and even much more than WW in 7mm-08.

With Rp brass I shoot 2830-2860 (factory specs) with 708/140gr and 21" barrel. I am loaded top loads, but they have been safe in my gun.

Running #'s on ballistic calculator, the 210 at 2550 vs 2630 has .4 inches of drop difference at 300 yds and PBR is within 10-15 yards of each other.

I feel confident that it is a solid 300 yard round which covers a LOT of real world situations.

I don't think any animal will laugh when hit by that bullet.

I think hunters in the east, south and anywhere that they predominantly hunt IN the timber, this round will do the job, and yes, SO will many others but SDhunter summed it up...

I have always felt that a bigger hole is always better. I absolutely love my 338-06 it has worked PERIOD!! A welcome addition to 338 family.

A nice compact, quick handling rifle with an efficient cartridge that puts a big hole in critters without undue muzzle blast or recoil. Good out to 300 yards. What more can you ask?

Sure, if the factories produced a 358 or 338-06 I would take a serious look, until then, the 338 Federal is on my list of next to buy when produced in a rifle of my liking. It offers me what I want and need, as I only shot 1 animal past 300 yards, it was 400, and that deer would die with the 338 Federal if I 'held right'

looking at the drop, it falls off fast after 400, but if you were pressed, and sighted in right, you could pull off a shot to 400 if needed and a 338 210 gr would put a nice hole in what you hit, I think it would get to and thru vitals and be lethal.

If hunters feel they need reliable 400-500 yard capability, this is not what is needed or desired (a 30 cal mag or 338/06 or magnum would be preferred), but to 300 or less all day long, it will work and should work very well.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
9.3, I read about this cartridge many times in the past and although for reloading, one might need to select 1-3 'niche' powders, I have no doubt the claimed specs are achievable and realistic.

Well, I have doubts. Most factory ammo doesn't live up to advertised velocities. Moreover, Federal may well pack it will its HE formulated powders, which is something us loaders do not have access to.

2630 with a 210 is faster than a 52,000 CUP 358 win with a 200 gr bullet...

If the Eruopean issue is true, it won't matter what powder is used as most don't handload there. Federal can load for any brand name there.

I hope the .338 federal is wildly successful! I think the .338-06 would have been wildly successful if someone other than weatherby had chambered for it and made ammo. For some reason the majors felt the .338-06 wasn't worth the effort. The federal cartridge will be doomed to the same fate with out the majors building rifles. I would like to see the .338 federal in AR10 and fal rifles.

Update,

I read a new press release recently in a gun magazine at Barnes and Noble which had LOWER velocities for the factory loads.

Perhaps Federal is REVISING data?

2550 for the 210 and 2700 for 185 or 180 load.

I hope this was incorrect but that is what it said?

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
Update,

I read a new press release recently in a gun magazine at Barnes and Noble which had LOWER velocities for the factory loads.

Perhaps Federal is REVISING data?

2550 for the 210 and 2700 for 185 or 180 load.

I hope this was incorrect but that is what it said?

These sound closer to what I would expect with safe pressures...

If the 338 federal isn't enough, get a 338-06 to shoot 210s at 2725 or so. If that isn't get get a 338 WM to shoot 210s @ 2925 or so...

Really, why risk red-lining a round? All it takes is one bad case and you can be out an eye...

I have loaded up a few dummy rounds with a 200 grain Hornady and a 250 grain Round Nose....

Seated to the cannelure, they both fit into the magazine of a Ruger 77 Mk 2....

As with the 358 Winchester... I'd dare to say with the bullets under 210 grains.. that the best powders will be in the fast burn rates....

My first pick would be REloader 7, Reloader 10 might be worth a try.. and then IMR or H 4198... and IMR 3031 and Benchmark.......

I look at this as a 250 yd cartridge in practical real world applications...100 or 200 fps is not going to make or break a hunt...

Some countries in Europe, like France for instance, are not allowed to hunt with cartridges that are considered military cartridges....

I can also see the possibilities of a sniper cartridge with reduced range, but stronger punch than the 308 having some merit by the designers...

With a fast powder and say a 20 inch, varmint weight barrel... this could be a handy counter sniper weapon for urban environments like are being experienced in Iraq right now....

A 200 grain bullet in 338 bore would probably be a better penetrator thru walls etc, than say a 150 grain or 175 grain 30 caliber bullet....

deer hunting is not the only real world application of a rifle cartridge... in its day also, the 33 Winchester, was considered a strong cartridge for Elk and Bear... the 338/08 or the Federal would just be more of a good thing in a small package... as with the 308 vs the 30/06... it could accomplish 95% of the applications in a shorter packaqe.. that would also give a greater rate of fire in a machine gun.....

My bet is also, that a 338 bore, 200 grain bullet will be a flatter shooter than a 308 bore, with a 150 grain bullet.. at longer ranges...

I can see strong military and police potential in the round....

I am looking strongly at rebarreling a 243 to a 338/08 with a 20 inch varmint sized barrel.....

and for the dummy rounds.. they kinda of look like a cartridge version of Danny DeVito....short,fat and mouthy!

cheers
seafire

I cannot help but love the balance and feel of my 700 varmint 7/08 cut to 21". The LTR 308 is nice and that gun in the 338 Federal would make a nice medium range stand gun as long barrels are a pain getting out of deer stand windows.

No doubt, if you wanted a 'stopper' round, a 338 give more surface area, weight/momentum in a military round and lord knows how many solders lives might have been saved by shooting mid bore calibers vs 223's which most shooters use on prairie dogs and the like.

I would use the round to 300 yds myself. Energy is there, so if expansion is good enough it will transfer energy, if anything longer ranges = less speed/expansion for more penetration. Not that I want to have a FMJ effect mind you!

I would guess the 180 btip is 'softer jacketed' than the 200 that I hear is as tough or more than the 210 PT. Any thoughts?

The 185 x may be the ideal bullet for better trajectory, but I would have to run some numbers vs the 210. There are no flies on the 210 though.

At what velocities or ranges in this cartridge can the 185x and 210 PT be expected to expand well on game?

Barnes claims that their X bullets will open up reliably down to about the 1500 fps range...

Nosler recommends the partition down to 2000 fps for optimal performance...

In my testing, I have found that under 2700 fps MV the ballistic tips actually will do more damage than the same weight of partition....

Some people are of the velocity school of thought.. and the partition is the better choice for that school of thought...

I lean toward the lower velocity school of thought, will still do the job just fine.....

The key is to use the right bullet to accomodate your rationale...Ballistic Tips are a poor choice for high velocity magnums....

With a ballistic tip, this round is just fine for distances out to 500 yds and beyond... yet I would say 250 yds or so, strictly based on a trajectory that most shooters could handle.....

heck if a 308 is considered acceptible out to 1000 yds, I'd take a 200 grain 338 bore over a 30 caliber bore any day out to 1000 yds!.....

If I put a 338/08 barrel on a short action my bullet of choice will be the 200 grain Hornady 1st, the 200 grain Speer second, and the Ballistic Tip third... all those choices are in order are strictly based on cost.. not performance... I'd rate the ballistic tip as the best... but the hornady in my experiences doesn't give much up to the BTips....

That 250 grain Round Nose also looked kind of appealing for short range... I'd call it my Danny DeVito round tho.. short, fat and mouthy! It would be a darn good heavy brush caliber for Elk.....

cheers
seafire

Its kinda weird but I have shot over 80 deer with the 338 win mag.Its when the bullets is slowing down to around 2400 pfs with the 200 gr power point that it makes a hudge hole.I thought it would do it up close but it just zips through with abot a .50 size hole.I shot a coyote with it at 15 yards last year and it made a nice .50 hole too.I have shot deer at 300 yards and out to 425 yards and it waped them.I tried the 210 gr nosler on deer but it zipped theough with no expansion.It did it with the 210 gr in the 338 and the 180 gr partition in the 300 mag.I tried the winchester power points 200 gr in the 338 and it was perfict for deer.I think the 200 gr hornady is very close to this bullet.It would be perfict for the 338 federal.I would say it would be a good 250 yard round for deer.I think it would handle elk to around 200 yards.If winchester stuck those 200 gr power points in it then it would be an awesome deer gun.

Seafire, I agree with what you said.

I buy VERY FEW Noslers because of their GREEDINESS to OVERPRICE themselves out of my range.

Hornady's have ALWAYS performed well and so have other brands. Unless using a Magnum round where I need a bullet to hold up to high speeds, or if I needed a 'premium' bullet to max penetration in a small caliber, I will pass by the x-bullets and Noslers because for one, I believe they are price gouging the market and others can/will do the job.

The 200 Hornady may be a great load for deer and perhaps not bad on elk, but I might spring the bucks for 1 box of premium bullets for an elk hunt if needed.

dgr416-thanks for your feedback.

If the darned Win Mag did not kick so hard I would not even be debating this round, and have you seen the costs of factory ammo lately? 35-40+ bucks for 20 rounds!!!!!! Insane.

If I bought factory, I would only sight in and hunt, missing out on the valuable practice handloading has afforded me.

quote:

dgr416: Its when the bullets is slowing down to around 2400 pfs with the 200 gr power point that it makes a hudge hole.I thought it would do it up close but it just zips through with abot a .50 size hole.

If you're just looking at the exit hole from a Npsler Partition, that's actually common. At ~2400 f/s, the front portion of the bullet stays intact and creates a pretty big exit hole. Above that (~2700?), the front petals peel off, leaving just the rear to act like a solid penetrator, creating a smaller exit hole.

The difference is what happens inside with the NP at higher velocity. It's like a small bomb going off, while still getting complete penetration. I like it, either at ~2400 or at 2700+.

Jaywalker

Remington® Express® 200 PSP CL 2775 2471 2186 1921 1678 1461


Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 200 PSP CL 3419 2711 2122 1639 1250 947


Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Remington® Express® 200 PSP CL -0.1 zero -1.3 -4.2 -9.0 -15.8


Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 200 PSP CL 2.1 1.8 zero -3.6 -9.4 -28.3 -59.7

The above is Remington factory 350 magnum ammo, the only load available 200gr, that I know of.....a 225 gr would change things.

None the less I ran #'s and the 338 Federal betters it with 210 at 2600.

Point is no own argued killing effect of the 350 and likely much game was shot with factory loads that are rated at 2775, having 1921 at 300yds, with 1639 ft lbs left.

Granted a 225 or 250 in the 350 changes things.

Just wanted to point out how the 338 Federal compares to factory 350 ammo.

338 has 1990 fps and 1846 lbs if MV is 2600fps, under the factory claims.

I really believe hunters will be impressed with field performance as most game is likely killed much closer.

Just loaded some 200's for my new Ruger SS 350
and expect more recoil than a 338 Federal.

Looked at the charts on a 338 200 hornady at 2650, and the 300yd was 1972 1726 for fps/ft lb

Yep, John Wooters said long ago his 2 favorite game rifles for this country is 308 and 338 and it took this long for someone to put the two together.

I am definitely planning on getting a 338 Federal.

At least I can spend some range time with it vs a Win Mag. My 338-06 was about the limit for me, I could squeeze off w/o flinching, but limited to 15-25 or so rounds per session perhaps a bit more.

One more thing, just p/u my Oct/Nov Handloader issue 1995, Ken Waters did 200 Btips at 2693 fps in his with 4895 powder and 2722 -AA2495.

He was using 24" barrel. Interesting data, I believe handloaders will love a 200 hornady at 2650 in a 22" barrel for a great deer round.

Waiting to here posts from the guy who was testing this round.

Barrel Length and any chrono data?

I bet they will never sell as many rifles, as Mauser did in 8x57, which is a smarter choice!

I imagine more 6.5x55, 6.5 jap, 7x57, etc. all the military rifles/rounds were produced in far greater #'s than most of today's sporting rifles and rounds.

I never knocked the 8x57, but I have no interest in an 8mm myself. Nothing against it, just no interest in it.

Ford found out everyone did not like black either.

I could really care less about how many are sold, I don't work in the industry, but can appreciate SANE prices for dies and no need to shell out premium dollars on custom die sets for a wildcat and custom barrels if I can get a major mfg to produce cheaper than I can build.

Enjoy your 8mm's and I will enjoy what I shoot.

ALL bullets leave the barrel to achieve the same purpose whatever it is regardless of the name or brand.

As a friend once put it, 'its all just mental masturbation'

Have a great day.

I have a Ruger 77 stainless in laminated stock that kicks less than any 20 ga shotgun I have.It pushes back not bad at all with very little muzzle rize.My 12 year old nephew shot it with out complaint.Ruger puts medium heavy barrels on its 338s.I think its about 7and 3/4 pounds.I tried to see how light I could get a 338 that I still have together .It was about 6 1/4 pounds.It would knock the snot out of you.I usually shot a standing bench with past pads.I shot two of my 338s around 300 times that day.I them shot my 416 rem mag with two past pads about 150 times.My cousin and I use to go at daylight and shoot till dark with about 20 guns each.I shot some 3/4" groups with my Stainless Ruger 77 with Remington 225 gr factory ammo at 200 yards.I shot mostly at 200 yards even with the 416s.I like the tang safety rugers best for deer hunting still.They dont kick hardly and I can shoot them like a double shotgun.This year I got a buck to my right and took off my glasses and turned 180 degrees and shot the buck I got in about less than 2 seconds.It was the last 5 mintues I had to hunt on my deer hunt.I think the 338 federal would be good on deer to around 250 yards.I know my 338 win mag flattens them from 3 yards to 425 yards.I have not lost a deer or over 2 pounds of meat from any deer I have shot.Its like Elmer Keith said you can eat right up to the bullet hole.I had a 3000 win mag also and was not impressed with it at all.I shot a ton of wild dogs with my 338 and got very good at running deer shots with my 338.The 338 win mag flips running deer in their tracks.The 3006 I use to use would not kill a running deer in their track it took about 500 yards for them to fall and another guy on another club shot them again.I shot a big 10 point with a 243 once and tracked it about 3/4 a mile to a gut pile.The guy never
knew it had been shot.I quit using 243 on deer forever.That was the third big buck I had lost with it.I then a few years later shot 2 8 pointers fighting and it took 3 shots each with my 3006 to keep them down and running off.I had shoulder and neck shots on both deer.They were right under my stand.Then a friend sold me his 338 win mag ruger 77 for $300 that he was afraid to shoot .Then rest is history.I think the 338-308 is almost undergunning the 338 bore but if you cant handle a 20 ga recoil then it might be the gun you need.

yawn. zzzzzzzz.

You don't need a a .338 to kill a deer, I've killed many running deer with a .270 win, and a 7mm rem mag. The 7 mm mag kills them instantly, even with a marginal hit, most drop instantly with the .270, one made it 30 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
i can see the light in a 308 rem pump carbine gun using hornadys 411 dia (405 win) 300 gr spire points for a brush gun in fact i will claim it as the 411 boom sticker proprietary cartridge

Boom Stick, what you're proposing is a .308 length shortening of the ancient .400 Whelen. The original never got popular, according to Frank Barnes, because it had insufficient shoulder for headspacing. Practically, it would be rather similar to a rimless .444 Marlin.

I can shoot a 20 ga all day, but not a 338 win mag.

Perhaps Ruger has a better stock design, I shot my stainless 700 with HS stock and I believe a pachmayr pad, none the less it kicked.

Today I shot my new Ruger 350 and it was between my 33806 and Win Mag, but the pad is solid and the gun is light, esp. with Leu 4x.

It might be about identical to the 338/06 in same weight gun.

I weigh 180 and don't soak up a lot of recoil. Shot a 416 once, w/o a brake and it was a handful, bbl went straight up. Not just me, the owner and dad the same-and the floorplate popped open as the recoil was fierce.

Everyone tolerates recoil differently and if I were ONLY a hunter, not a shooter, and not a reloader, a 338 WIN Mag is one reliable killing tool, but I like to ENJOY shooting, and the WM does not allow me to do that.

Perhaps you are used to shooting 416's and the like and the 338WM is of no consequence to you.

Looking at my Hodgdon loading manual, the 358 win barely gets 2500 fps with a 200 grain hornady bullet.

And thats with a 26" test barrel.

How can the .338 get over 2600 fps with a 210 grain partition? Are they using high energy powder?

If so, ammo will be high priced and will leave out handloaders like myself.

I just read every post on this and no one's brought up what I thought would be the perfect (or one of the perfect) combo's for this caliber.

Savage 99 with a 23-24" bbl.

Light weight, great handling characteristics and if the round is even halfway accurate, an accurate mountain rifle.

As for Sako building them, they are putting them into 3 models of the NEW 85 series.
Expect models to be around in the states sometime this summer/early fall.

I will tell you I hunted the last 2 days carrying my 350 Stainless/Syn Ruger and it handles perfect, light enough to carry, heavy enough to steady, and the stock fits like it should, the forearm and pistol grip for my hands and with sharp checkering you can grip.

If Ruger makes that gun next year in 338 Federal I will get one. Likewise if Win M70.

I believe guys that load max in 358's get 225's at 2400-2450, some even to 2500.

Ken Waters got 2590 fps with 210 338/08 as highest velocity in Handloader magazine. I feel sure it will easily do 2500-2550 with right powders in 21-23".

I may be wrong but don't think so.

1-2 gr powder can often make a good deal of difference in moderate case capacity ctg's and manuals are often on the 'safe' side as should be.

Data will come out very soon and we will know what limits this cartridge has.

Federal MIGHT be using special powders but I don't know that they have to or would in this ctg.

I think 2500/2550 will be almost guaranteed and 2600-2650 max with 210's depending on bbl length