With the recent discussions about the 6.5 Creedmore and the decision of Ruger to offer the cartridge in the Ruger American Predator, one should ask whether or not the Creedmore is a responsible choice for antelope like waterbuck, hartebeest, and eland, or elk or heavy deer?

At the moment, I am holding off on a decision for a grandkids rifle for Tanzania. I'm leaning to 308Win in Ruger American All-weather Compact in 12.5" LOP, 6 pounds bare, and 18" barrel.

Question:
Is the 6.5 Creedmore, recent industry darling, really an answer for larger deer and antelope?

Choices:
Yes
No
Only for careful shooters who want to push lower limits

Question:
Should Ruger American add the 6.5 Creedmore to its American All-weather Compact line?

Choices:
Yes
No

Question:
Please give a reason for the answer in question 2 about adding the cartridge to the American Compact line.

Choices:
No, he Compact 18" barrel is inappropriate for the cartridge
No, the 260 Remington already exists and should be chosen instead.
I voted 'Yes'
other

 

I would not hesitate hunting anything in the lower 48,except grizz, with premium bullets and very careful shot placement a consideration with big elk/moose. I can't comment on African stuf. I am always in favor of more caliber choices and rifle configurations. The 6.5 CM is a much better choice for youth deer hunters than the 243.

IMHO we have too many cartridges from which to select. Only few offer the manufacturers enough volume to produce economic production runs of ammo and cases. The Creedmore brings nothing to the table in the way of increased performance or filling a viable nitch. Just another short term marketing gimic. roger

I'll put it this way; there's nothing I'd shoot with a 180 grain bullet out of a .308 that I wouldn't shoot with a 140 grain bullet out of a 6.5mm (assuming similar MV), and the .308 will kick a fair bit harder.

I'm not completely sold on the Creedmore though. My own personal choice is a 6.5x55, and I don't see any compelling reason to switch.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I'll put it this way; there's nothing I'd shoot with a 180 grain bullet out of a .308 that I wouldn't shoot with a 140 grain bullet out of a 6.5mm (assuming similar MV), and the .308 will kick a fair bit harder.
...

That is well put.
So we can turn the question around:
If you were looking at a 350-400 pound hartebeest and had equally accurate rifles in 308 and 6.5Crdm at arm's length, which would you grab?

And a second, related question, but different:
Assuming similar length-of-pull and rifle weight, which would a 10-11 year-old kid grab?


(Many a year ago my son grabbed the 270, but his other option was a 222Rem [and he knew that I wouldn't let him shoot at a hartebeest with a 222].)

I believe in a difference between acceptable minimum and minimum with conditions. As such, a 7mm cartridge would be my choice as an acceptable minimum for 500 pound big game. Smaller cartridges will definitely get the job done cleanly if the shooter is patient, if it's a good broadside shot, if this, and if that. Because when using smaller calibers, everything works great...until it doesn't.

Yes a bad shot with a big bullet is worse than the perfect shot with a small bullet. But a bad shot is a bad shot, regardless of caliber. And a marginal shot (liver) with a big bullet will still provide a very good opportunity to recover the animal in short order. A marginal hit with a smaller caliber may very likely result in a dead, but lost, animal.

Finally, with a stock that fits them, the .308 is no harder to shoot than a 6.5mm. I've seen it with my wife and few women of similar build who have shot her .308. The stock fits well and recoil is not an issue. I believe too much is made of setting up youth with smaller calibers while missing the much more important aspect of proper stock fit. Better to have a .308 that fits well than a .22-250 that doesn't.

I like .30 caliber...so I say get him the .308 win.

I like the creedmoor caliber, and see myself owning at least one at some point. I think the .30 caliber is more versatile.

quote:

And a second, related question, but different:
Assuming similar length-of-pull and rifle weight, which would a 10-11 year-old kid grab?

Almost an impossible question to answer with so many variables....height, weight, physical abilities just to name a few...

That said I believe "the typical 10-11 year old" would find the 6.5 Creedmor more genial on the shoulder therefore more accurate in a hunting situation.

My son, who is relatively light of stature, has no trouble managing the recoil of a .308 Win with 150 grain bullets. He killed an elk last year with it at age ten and another just a couple months ago at age 11. Most of his practice is with reduced recoil loads shooting 125s. Then a few finishing touches with the 150s and he's off.

2014 at age 10


2015 at age 11

No, the 6.5x284 is the answer.

The 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser is the answer loaded adequately in a modern action.

The .300 H&H is a better answer for that.

But if the 6.5x55 is good then why not 6.5 Creedmoor? Remember, the "official" modern military load for 6.5x55 was 140 gr bullet at 2625 ft/s. Creedmoor factory ammo can do better than that.

Not convinced? Well consider the early 20th Century darling of Africa, the 6.5x54 M-S. That was renowned for its flat trajectory and deep penetration. Is that too small for large antelope/deer? The Creedmoor easily bests that cartridge.

Finally, you must consider the size and abilities of the grand kids. Isn't a well placed heavy-for-caliber bullet fired by a confident shooter better than a misplaced higher energy, larger caliber bullet fired by a recoil shy shooter?

DesertRam,
Those look like nice times with your son.
Would you care to details on the spot and stalk, the shooting positions and time constraints?

I imagine that he had to practice and adapt a little to go from a shooting range to a live 'unknown' situation. Did he practice shooting over logs, on sticks/tripod, leaning on tree, or prone? In Africa a lot of hunting is done off of sticks, which would certainly help a young person hold a relatively heavy tool out level.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I'll put it this way; there's nothing I'd shoot with a 180 grain bullet out of a .308 that I wouldn't shoot with a 140 grain bullet out of a 6.5mm (assuming similar MV), and the .308 will kick a fair bit harder.
...

That is well put.
So we can turn the question around:
If you were looking at a 350-400 pound hartebeest and had equally accurate rifles in 308 and 6.5Crdm at arm's length, which would you grab?

And a second, related question, but different:
Assuming similar length-of-pull and rifle weight, which would a 10-11 year-old kid grab?


(Many a year ago my son grabbed the 270, but his other option was a 222Rem [and he knew that I wouldn't let him shoot at a hartebeest with a 222].)

Personally I would grab the .308, just because I prefer more frontal area on game.

I note you are talking hartebeest, and not eland. Personally, all my eland have been with .375's or .416's and I would consider 200 grain bullets out of a .300 mag of some sort my personal minimum on eland, realizing the have been taken with less.

The kids would probably grab the 6.5, with less recoil, and with a 140 and decent bullets, it has enough penetration. Short of eland, at reasonable range, a 6.5 with heavy bullets is enough gun with a little care for plains game to me.

Here is my take on this situation.

Since the 1950's we have had a cartridge that was ok, it wasn't as powerful or fast as the 30-06, it didn't feed as slickly, but it was accurate.

Then we started in the past 10 years to take what we knew about things like the 6mm PPC, 6mm BR and 6.5x55 Swede and move into the realm of 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x47 Lapua. Modern propellents, modern science and a hunger for a better mouse trap delivers us where we are today.

I have had both the 6.5 CM and the 6.5x47 Lapua. They are wonderful and effective little tools that feed very well out of 308 Magazines, and can fit very long for caliber bullets into a magazine that a 260 Rem could never make work.

Both 6.5 cartridges are accurate, and they possess the speed and Ballistic cooefficients to make shots that are well into the realm of the 7mm Remington Magnum and 300 Winchester at advanced range.

They don't kick, they have short powder columns and are very accurate. I personally can't a rifle battery for myself that doesn't include one or the other.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is the 257 Roberts of the 21st Century.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
The 6.5 Creedmoor is the 257 Roberts of the 21st Century.

Yes, only it isn't handicapped by arbitrarily low Saami pressure limits.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I'll put it this way; there's nothing I'd shoot with a 180 grain bullet out of a .308 that I wouldn't shoot with a 140 grain bullet out of a 6.5mm (assuming similar MV), and the .308 will kick a fair bit harder.
...

That is well put.
So we can turn the question around:
If you were looking at a 350-400 pound hartebeest and had equally accurate rifles in 308 and 6.5Crdm at arm's length, which would you grab?

And a second, related question, but different:
Assuming similar length-of-pull and rifle weight, which would a 10-11 year-old kid grab?


(Many a year ago my son grabbed the 270, but his other option was a 222Rem [and he knew that I wouldn't let him shoot at a hartebeest with a 222].)

Personally I would grab the .308, just because I prefer more frontal area on game.

I note you are talking hartebeest, and not eland. Personally, all my eland have been with .375's or .416's and I would consider 200 grain bullets out of a .300 mag of some sort my personal minimum on eland, realizing the have been taken with less.

The kids would probably grab the 6.5, with less recoil, and with a 140 and decent bullets, it has enough penetration. Short of eland, at reasonable range, a 6.5 with heavy bullets is enough gun with a little care for plains game to me.

+1, CR.

Don't expect a blood trail from a 6.5 bullet. The 6.5 will do a good job up to about a 400 lb. animal at under 300 yds with a very well placed bullet, after that it's a stretch. A stretch without a blood trail will frequently lead to lost game. I'll agree that it doesn't take a very big hole in the heart or a major artery to cause death but if the animal travels 500 yds. without a blood trail the hunter will never even know if he hit it or not.
Why do all these guys who have very little actual hunting experience try to use these small bore weapons on game that is far out of their class. One reason is that ballistics charts don't place any value on bullet diameter. it can't be computed on a calculator so they just ignore it. Blood trails start at 30 caliber, you're just damn lucky if you get any kind of a blood trail from a 6.5 bullet.

This thread should be moved to the small bore section. The 6.5 is not a .277 or up caliber.

It is interesting to see the wheel turn. Today gun scribes view,justified or not the 6.5CM as the cartridge of this century.

But the 6.5mm caliber is not new, from the last century at the time when the world transitioned from black powder large bore low velocity munitions to nitro flake, small bore high velocity munitions this caliber became popular among african hunters.

The British called it the 265 and it came in various formats Rimmed and Rimless. These options were largely used in the British East Africa.

Lesser known are the 6.5s used in Portuguese territories and of these the now obsolete 6.5 x 58 Portuguese and its 1904 Portuguese Verguiero rifle, a Mannlicher / Mauser Hybrid that became the stuff of legend in the early Afrikaner hunter mindset. These rifles and their use spilled over due to South Africa's proximity to both Angola and Mozambique.

These rifles were not numerous at all and market penetration was small. However the following, though small was fierce and extremely loyal !

The effectiveness of the 6.5x 58 P was stuff of legend. The mentors of hunting in my world preached around late night camp fires of the abilities of this cartridge and gun to a very willing and receptive younger audience.

Early in my gun collecting career I too was captivated by the stories and legend of the Portuguese and one in the form of a sporterized
Portuguese Verguiero found its way to my collection.

Over the years I have come to acquire not only the the 58 but also the 57 mauser, the 54 Mauser, the 54 MS ,the 53 MS rimmed , the 55 Swede in various rifles and then the later 68 RWS. The American 264 was quite popular amongst the Kalahari long shot brigade but buying a second hand 264 was a toss up as many had shot out bores.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
This thread should be moved to the small bore section. The 6.5 is not a .277 or up caliber.

Swampshooter, you are correct, but the poll cannot be edited without losing it.

As an explanation, I was thinking about the 6.5 Crdm in comparison to the 308 Win when I wrote the opening piece, so it was implicitly a medium bore question, even if literally dealing with the 6.5mm. The same thing happens on big bores when comparing 9.3 and 338 to 375. Comparisons across the boundaries make for fuzzy edges.

My 10yr old son is 70# soaking wet. He shoots a Remington Seven in 260 Rem. Which is pretty darn close to the 6.5 CM. His rifle is light and has a short 20" barrel and he handles the recoil with no issues. It is loud as the dickens though and I suspect a short barreled CM would be the same.
Having seen how well that 260 kills, both stateside on whitetail and in Africa on PG up to wildebeest, I would have no problems shooting any game animal in NA with with it, not counting grizzlies and for African PG up to zebra. I would say the same for a Creedmoor or Swede. As a side note, my son has taken a better liking to my 6.5 Swede than his 260 as of late.

Having killed a number of caribou with the 6.5 Creedmoor. One well over 300 lbs at 300 yards and further with all of them ending up on the ground within 2 steps . 1 round each. And watched 2 guys with 30/06s , shoot several caribou . Both used 165 gr bullets . Their max range on the bou they shot was 230 ish yards . They averaged about 2.5 rounds per animal. And 1 was lost .
That doesnt make the 6.5 a better killer than the 06 . But the 6.5 was shot better than the 06s were . There in is the key.
I mostly shoot 130 gr bullets for hunting. TSX and Sirocco ll. I would use the same loads on a big trophy bull moose. . I have only had 1 TSX not exit and thats because it broke major bones then went thru a full paunch at 372-373 yards. With a mv of 2775 fps.

I imagine the recoil of the Creed is closely comparable to the 257 Roberts . And with 120 gr bullets , which kill far better than most may think . The 6.5's recoil is the same as a 243. And still it kills like a 308 or 06.

I wonder how it would do on a grizzly? Would it be as good as an '06.
One of my elk guides is having a 6.5 Creedmoor built for his wife & son after seeing a bull elk shot with one. He said a bedded bull at 300 yds. At the shot the bull laid his head down and never got up.
My thought was that it is not far behind the 7x57, which compares favorably with the '06. Except that a 6.5 blood trail would be skimpy or more than likely non existent.

quote:

I wonder how it would do on a grizzly?

Good question. And we have lions in Tanzania, though a meat-hunter's job is to tiptoe around any cats.

While I've never hunted with a 308, I think that I would rather have a 308 with a 165gn TTSX or 165gn Laser.

Actually, I would really rather have a 338WinMag with 225gnTTSX, or 375Ruger, or 500AccRug. But grandkids would be toting a lighter rifle and I would have the 338 or greater.

If Im hunting PG in DG habitat, you can bet I'll pack enough gun to take care of the big stuff and shoot PG with it..Big bores for that matter ruin very little meat, much less than say the Creedmore or .270 as a rule..

I recall hunting with Saeed and Pierre van Tonder several years ago, when one of the hunters and his PH stepped on a buffalo cow with a snare on her hind leg, She roughed the boys up a good bit, ran over them both or they ran over each other, not sure which but they won out in the end, but what would the outcome have been with a Creedmore?

As far as shooting deer size game with a Creedmore, I have never shot one, but Ive shot enough deer with much lesser calibers to be sure if you place the shot within reason you have one in the salt...Great beginner gun with that lack of recoil, which is crucial with young'uns. All my kids and grandkids shot their first deer and antelope with a .222, graduated to my 22-250 to my 6x45, and now they are all good shots and use 06s, 270s etc.., except for my oldest grandson who has never seen the need for any caliber except my 6x45, and he batting a 100% one shot kills on a lot of deer..He feeds about a 100 deer in his pasture every year, no hunting allowed, they are his pets.

quote:

If Im hunting PG in DG habitat, you can bet I'll pack enough gun to take care of the big stuff and shoot PG with it.
...
All my kids and grandkids shot their first deer and antelope with a .222

My son shot his first oribi with a 222, worked great on spur-wing geese and duiker, too.
Then he went to a 270 for cob, warthog and hartebeest. But times have changed. We don't live in the middle of a game area. And the grandkids would be on a visit rather than 'live in'.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
With the recent discussions about the 6.5 Creedmore and the decision of Ruger to offer the cartridge in the Ruger American Predator, one should ask whether or not the Creedmore is a responsible choice for antelope like waterbuck, hartebeest, and eland, or elk or heavy deer?

At the moment, I am holding off on a decision for a grandkids rifle for Tanzania. I'm leaning to 308Win in Ruger American All-weather Compact in 12.5" LOP, 6 pounds bare, and 18" barrel.

I think a lot of these standard cases are so tightly packed ballistically that the bullet you use matters a lot more than energy charts,fps, SD and a bunch of numbers we try to use to quantify terminal effect of cartridges.

I'd just grab a 30/06 and forget all these Johnny Come Lately SA cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:

I think a lot of these standard cases are so tightly packed ballistically that the bullet you use matters a lot more than energy charts,fps, SD and a bunch of numbers we try to use to quantify terminal effect of cartridges.

I'd just grab a 30/06 and forget all these Johnny Come Lately SA cartridges.

As far as an all around big game round goes, I think the argument was rationally ended in 1906. It can be well argued that the date is actually 1888. I think the vast majority of us know this, but what fun would there be if that's all anyone ever used? We wouldn't have anything to argue about. How boring!

I suppose if the truth were known, its just another caliber that will work fine on animals like deer and antelope and even on elk if your careful to get close and place your shot properly..I have used the 250-3000 and even the 25-35 and 30-30 on such game with 100% success, so will you if the application is correct.