So, fooling around with some software, it looks like a 358 could push a 300g cast bullet to around 2200fps from a 22" bbl. That's loaded to 2.89" COL (think M70.)
Does that sound feasable? If so, it's over 3k ftlb! It's madness, I know, but I'm thinking about a M70 ftwt throated a little long for just such a bullet.

3000 ft-lb can be achieved with cartridges starting with the .270 and up.

The 35 whelen can kick out 3,500 ft-lb energy with standard 250 grain jacketed bullets and the standard 358 winchester jacks out 3000 ft-lb with standard 250 grain jacketed bullets.

Sorry...this shooter don't see the advantage.

The problem here is that the .358 is not a DG rifle and for all things less than that it's just fine as is.

Yes, like I said, it's madness. At the risk of overstating the obvious, it's not just 3k ftlb, but with the SD of a small train!
As for DG, I'd take said load to a grizz just as soon as anything else.
The point of my exercise was to see how heavy a bullet the 358 could push to 2200 fps, and I was really surprised to see what looked to be the answer.
As for advantages, none need there be, excepting that I would have one where before I didn't!
There's plenty of folks shooting poor, defenseless deer with a 45/70 and 400g bullets, you know. Not an "advatnage" over other choices, just THEIR choice. ;-)
But just for argument's sake, a few one could make up would be:
Low powder charge in a short/light rifle, decent BC for a cast bullet (being almost 1.25" long) and loads of fun for 500yd rainbow plinking.
And as for the rifle, you could still certainly shoot other bullet weights with the longer throat, jacketed or not.

Sounds like fun. I load a 280 gr WLN from Mt. Baldy. RECOIL. I don't remember the load and haven't chronographed it yet. I went to the 275 gr bullets in the old Hornady manual. I took the data from the exact middle of the chart. I dropped two grains from that load with 4064( LC reformed 7.62x51) then used that as a max to work up to. I stayed with the start load as it hit hard at both ends. I use a Savage 99, 17 1/4" barrel, 1 in 12 twist. Good luck and YMMV. Packrattusnongratus

Bwana

The one main sticking point would be barrel twist rate, unless you had at least a one in 12" twist 275gr and up bullets may not stabilize. Besides the cast choices there are a few heavy weights in jacketed form.

Theres the 270gr North Fork, the 275gr Hawk with two different jacket thickneses, the 280gr Swift A-Frame, 300gr Hawk, and 310gr Woodleigh. Those should do well for the big stuff.

Yup. You hit most all of them. I have a 'cat that will send the 280 out at over 2900, so I'm not without when it comes to the jacketed.
I'm thinking cast 300g. A big ol' custom mould shaped to fit, with about a .9" long nose with 60% meplat and two little lube grooves in the back.
Point of the thought was, "ok, 2200 fps, how heavy coudl a 308 case push that fast?"
'Course a .375-08 would be even easier to make those numbers, but finding a 375-08 to play with can be a bit of a chore.
The 358 can definitely strut its stuff with the 220/250g class, huntingwize, but I'm not trying to be reasonable at all here. Just trying to see if anyone would support the assessment that it might be feasable.

a 300gr probably wont hit over 2100, as factory loads of 250gr were 2250.. with the 200gr just over 2500.. pushed 225 sierra games kings hit 2500.

jeffe

Bwana,
Give me a few weeks and I'll let you know. I've had a 358Win put together on a M70 with 1:14" twist barrel and I'm hoping to give the 310gr Woodleigh a try in both it and a 1:16" twist 35Whelen.
Cheers...
Con

Bwanabe, methinks the 250 gr bullet will do anything in the cartridge that the 300 can. I wouldn't fool with it myself.

Con, I'll hold you to it. That bullet is heavier and sparser that the one in my head, so it'll eat more powder room, pllus your throat won't let you seat much more than 2.7" likely. Still a worthy endeavor. How long is the barrel? (I plan on a 1:12" if this gets underway.)
As I and others said, the 250 is plenty for this case, but a fool's got to find something to fool with!
Jeffe, that's about what I was thinking before I started messing with Powley's equations. Just equations, I know. You don't have QL, do you? :-) I've been hearing about full-pressure loads using cast bullets exceeding the jacketed counterparts, and I'm thinking that 2.89" COL might give the 300 just the extra bit of room it needs to at least come close. Plus, a 250g jacketed bullet is almost 1.2" long anyway. This cast job is 1.224" long or so, much shorter than that Woodleigh number.

Now Bwawa-B . I told you I did it in my 9(358)x41. 297gr at OVER 2000 ft/sec matching the energy level of the 30-06.Now if anyone wants to come down to S. Cal and witness it I'll be more than happy to let you buy me lunch and a few beers. It is in the math, guys!

Soon I'll be doing the 250gr.gas checked to see what it will do in this mini mag case. roger

Bwana-b I sense that you doubt me. what sorrow-roger

Hey, you got me wrong, Roger.
If you hadn't said you got what you got, I wouldn't have started thinking about the whole thing!
You're loading the 3589 or 009, right? What's the COL? Bbl length?
I do think with a M70's room to spare it just makes sense to use it. In fact, the "sensible" thing would be to chamber the 9x57, seat it out to 3.05 or so. In fact, a rebarrel of a M70 in 6.5 Swede would make the whole thing a piece of cake.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Hey, you got me wrong, Roger.
If you hadn't said you got what you got, I wouldn't have started thinking about the whole thing!
You're loading the 3589 or 009, right?right
What's the COL?OAL=2.435" Bbl length? 16.5" barrel

The case length is 1.625"

with Braunschwager, Roger

OK, so with those numbers, I dare say it may not be crazy getting 2200 from a real ;-) bbl and a full-length 358.
That's quite a bullet. Amazing they discontinued it. Everyone that has the lould loves it, and the used ones sell for a pretty penny; I can imagine they get lots of requests for it.
BTW, I played with downloading the 9x72 using those bullets. Worked down to about 2400 fps with about half toilet paper. Still faster than I was shooting for, just got a little silly. That thing could push a 500g 2200 fps almost!

Bwana-be. I hear you on that #3589/358009 mold. I called Lyman about it and their attitude was literally, go to hell. We've destroyed the cherry and wil not make another one.
There was a bunch of us on the old Shooter's.com that had a custom mold maker make up a #3589I for improved. The improvement was a slight 1/8" flat on the nose to hopefully improve striking power. Several dozen people expressed interest, someone donated a few #3589 bullets to give the mold maker, David Mos, an idea of what we wanted. He quoted a price for single and double cavity molds and I can't say the money rolled in. Out of those several dozen people, only six actually bought molds, myself included. It casts a beautiful bullet.
About a year ago, I was nosing around in one of our local gun shops and noticed several old Lyman mold boxes. The shop keeper said to help myself to what I wanted as the prices were quite low and he wanted to clear them out. I ended up with about seven or eight long discontinued Lyman molds, some marked only Ideal and the rest Lyman Ideal, and the $25 wonder was an Ideal #3589. It also casts a beautiful bullet, but is way undersize. Gas checks won't stay on, even when crimped. I "Beagled" the bullet and now it casts out at the right size. I don't know if you go on the cast boolit site, but Beagling is just using aluminum tape in small strips to hold the mold open slightly, thus enlarging the cast. Now, if I can only get one of my 35 caliber rifles to shoot the damn things, I'd be a happy camper. Most have a twist rate too slow for bullets that heavy. I have no idea where Remington and Ruger thought that a 1 in 16" twist was appropriate for either the .35 Whelen or .358 Winchester. They must have had their heads up their arses that day.
Paul B.

Well, the 358 Winchester, for instance, was born about two or three years before the 338 Winchester Magnum, IRC, and big, slow bullets were not the hot ticket. The 200-225g range was much heavier than the 30-cals were shooting, and it could push them at "marketable velocities. I think That must have been the rational.
Unfortunately, they were fighting a lost game. In retrospect, one wonders what would've happened had they changed their tack, and made a clearly different market approach, now that they had their 338, by speeding up the twist rate and loading 250 and 280g bullets out of 24" bbls.
The people who weren't interested would not have changed their mindds, but I htink the folks who still saw the value in the round would've been happier.

I was quite surprised by the one in 12" twist rate for my BLR in .358 win, especially since bullets over 250gr are not likely to be used in a .358 . But hey im not complaining, it shoots great so far with lighter bullets and should stablilize any of the heavier bullets.

Recently i bought a .35 Whelen barrel for my Savage 110 in 30-06 . And i was pleased at its one in 14" rate but would have been much happier with a one in 12", especially since i plan to shoot heavier jacketed bullets, either the 270gr North Fork or the 275gr Hawk.

I have a 35 Whelen with a 1:10 Lilja barrel. I'd feel more comfortable trying for 2,200 with a 300-gr. bullet in it than I would in a 358.


Okie John

Yeah, the Whelen will definitely do it. And you've got the twist for it. I wouldn't advocate "making" the 358 go 2200, more just trying to figure out if it does it on its own (62kpsi.)
Barnes claims to get 2200 with his 300g Orginal.

Woodleigh makes a 310 gr SP in 358 that should pe perfect for close range shooting in the 358 Win.
That bullet is designed for 1800 to 2200 fps if I remember correctly.
Also I would take a look at http://www.hawkbullets.com
I have had excellent results on game with a 300 gr .025jkt, and a 400 gr .035 jkt out of my 450 400 double and with the 9,3 285 gr .035 jkt, in my Chapuis double.
In fact these Hawk bullets have given me 99.9% one shot, drop to the shot, kills on deer, wild pigs, and impala. I had one hog that ran about 15 or 20 feet.
In the 358 Win a 250 to 300 grain Hawk with the .035jkt should be about perfect.

Okie John! That 1:10 twist rate sounds great. I can't decide whether to go with a 358 WCF, 35 Whelen, 9.3X62, or a 376 Steyer in an M48 Mauser I have here. Whatever I do it probably will have a fast twist rate like yours. I always have been a fan of long for caliber, medium speed projectiles. Good shootin Packrattusnongratus

packrat
If I may, I will make a recommendation.
After using my 9,3x74R for many years, I must say in a bolt action I believe that the 9,3x62 with 286 grain bullets to be the best all round bolt rifle on the planet. The 358 Win, the 35 Whelen, the 350 RM Mag and the 338-06 are great cartridges.... But.
When you consider rifle weight, killing power, and recoil the 9,3x62 in a bolt rifle is very hard to beat.
The only combo that beats it IMHO is a double rifle in 9,3x74R.

Packrat,
Pretty sure the M48 (Yugo Mausers) are an intermediate length and dont fit 30/06 length cases.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Barnes claims to get 2200 with his 300g Orginal.

Take the Barnes claims with a grain of salt. For one thing, nearly all of their velocities are from 26" barrels, even for carbine-type cartridges. Also, do you have a supply of 300-gr. Originals on hand? The future of that bullet is uncertain at best.

I'd look at Woodleigh, Northfork or Hawk if you insist on using bullets this heavy -- or cut the Gordian knot and get a 9.3x62. Lots more heavy-bullet choices there, and the 9.3mm bore diameter seems to be on the ascent. The 9.3mm 286-gr. Partition may be the answer you seek.


Okie John

Yes, it sounds feasible, particularly with a cast lead bullet.....

Yeah, Barnes was mentioned only as a 300g with load data. I have no desire to hunt them down (though I would like to get my hands on them. My thought centers around an as-yet-unmade custom mould.

My apologies for necroposting, but this thread peaked my interest.

Shouldn't be any problem getting 2000fps with a 300 grainer out of a 358 Winchester. I am shooting a 280grain 358009 cast boolit, the one mentioned with a small flat from Accuratemolds.com. I get 2100fps with 40gr H4895. This load shoots 5 shots into an inch at 100yds with my 12" twist stainless Ruger Hawkeye consistently. My notes show that I get 2150fps with 42gr and accuracy begins to suffer. 42gr is shown as a max load in Whelen's book using a 280gr bullet and H4895 powder. His book only lists 1950fps with that charge. I get 100fps more...perhaps it is due to lead bullets going faster than jacketed (less friction), or I just may have a faster 22' barrel.

Was the 300 gr bullets ever tested in the 358 ?

I load the 310gr Woodleigh bullet in my 358 Win. BLR at 2000 fps MV using Reloder15 (20" barrel length). Since it has a 1-in-12" twist barrel I get decent accuracy. Good results on moose!

My 35 Whelen rifles which have 1-in-16" twist barrels can't stabilize this bullet. Here's a photo of the 358 Win. cartridge loaded with the 310gr bullet -

I tried 250 grain bullets in my Ruger M77 but, I had a hard time finding the right load for decent accuracy so, I went back to my standby 225 grain NP's. My rifle regulates this bullet weight well with a fairly stout load of Ramshot TAC and I wouldn't hesitate to use them out to 250 yards or so on elk or deer.

I would stop and review the facts along with some 120 yer old history of the great British medium bores like the 350 Rigby cartridges used in double & bolt rifles.

You are talking about performance similar to the Rigby 400/350 cartridge. John Taylor wrote very favourably of this group of cartridges. He recons that they are adequate for all big game including elephant in the hands of an experienced hunter except in thick bush. The 350 No2 & the 350 Magnum did better but the 350 Magnum was regulated with 225 gr bullets I think.

In the 358 Win I would first check the barrel twist to make sure the 300 gr bullet will stabilize. I very much doubt you will get 2200 fps even with a 26 inch barrel. In my own Mod 70 with a Douglas SS 20 inch barrel I struggled to go above 2350 fps with 225 gr Sierra BTGK & IMR 3031 - a compressed load. I might have done better with one of the Ramshot powders but we cannot get them here in NZ.

May be H322 could do better ...???

But what is the point in a short action cartridge if you go for a 26 inch barrel to shoot 300 gr bullets. My Mauser 98 Simson 9.3X62 shoots the Woodleigh 320gr bullet at 2230 fps! It has a 24 inch octagon to round barrel with full length rib

310 gr. bullets in a 358 Win. Gonna be a tight squeezed for the primer!!

I have a 350 Rem mag model 7 that I loaded with some cast 358009. It shot well with them but I ran out of the bullets before I could develop a load I liked. I was able to get in on a group buy on cast boolits for the 358009 mold made by NOE. I am not sure if he is carrying this as a regular stock item or not. I do know accurate molds does have a version of the mold.